Are standards too low in English football culture?

[Zlatan 7]

Fans may have high standards but do the English NT? Does the FA? I don't see it. England should have tried to kill the game off before penalties, the squad was deep enough to really trouble the Italians, especially their mediocre FB's.

I actually can’t believe that Italy were without their star of the tournament left back, had two mid 30s (although beasts) centre backs, England went one nil up in two minutes, had a bench full of game changers and attacking talent and didn’t try to kill the game. It was screaming for England to get at that back line and it didn’t happen anywhere near enough.

The managers decision not to maybe but that also come from the mentality you question maybe.

 

[Nickelodeon]

This is why England will never win until such attitudes from pundits and fans change.

Okay. I think you need to cool it a bit. Firstly, even if I buy your premise, that Saka has more potential and is six years younger than Grealish, what has that got to do with the present. Secondly, I'm not even suggesting that playing Saka over the Grealish or Foden is a crazy move but to suggest the vice versa is not "ignorant" as there's a pretty good rationale based on their respective seasons.

And finally, I'm not English. If my attitude is a reason why England will never win, I might as well should keep it up then.

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

Many teams have a proud footballing history and produce top players. The Netherlands have never won the WC, Spain won their first one in 2010. I don't think it is about culture. Many factors combine but for me, the biggest are skill and luck.

You make your own luck or you take advantage of luck when you get it, for example England playing 6 out of 7 games at home including the final and getting a fortunate decision in the semi-final. But then when you have only 6 shots and 34% possession in a final at home and don't try to engage with attacking for the vast majority of it, don't you only have yourself to blame? If England had 19 shots and 60% possession, sure they might not have won either. But their percentage chance of winning would have greatly increased.

 

[Kopral Jono]

This sounds a bit cliche but winning is a habit and for whatever reason it hasn't become one for England. The same goes with the Netherlands, despite the wealth of talent they've had over the years. It wasn't a habit with France and Spain but they've turned the corner. I actually think England will turn this proverbial corner sooner rather than later.

 

[André Dominguez]

At one part of the second half the possession was 71% Italy 29% England. This sums it all.

 

[Redlambs]

I live a spit away from Italy and had been going there for work and pleasure for more then 20 times in my life. I also lived in the UK for around half a decade as well. The difference is quite striking.

Italians truly understand football. Anyone who understand the Italian language and tend to listen to Italian punditry would acknowledge how tactical savvy they are as opposed to anyone in England really. They have high expectations but they are also very realistic. All they ask is for the team to do its very best, something that is done most of the time. This knowledge about football allows them to pinpoint whose the real culprits are and to expect their own FA to act on it. It also allow them to truly appreciate true talent and the worth of being professional at all times. The likes of Baggio, Totti and Del Piero are considered legends in Italy.

In England there seem to be that lack of understanding football. There's too much emphasis on grit and determination rather then talent and professionalism. The way the likes of Beckham, Scholes and now Grealish had been misused by the national team is beyond ridiculous. On the other hand the likes of Gazza would never have made it in Italy. Case in point is Di Canio who was never called with the Italian national team simply because he's a nutter.

Its a shame because this English side has ample potential.

Yeah, I agree with this. It's weird because even with Capello we still suffered from the same thing, but that's because it's drilled into the players I guess.

 

[Hammondo]

I'm not sure culture was the issue in this tournament.

In Russia against Croatica 100% was, we were basically taking it to the corner flag from about the 40th minute when we had the better team.

Last night I think it was more an issue with tactics and management, Southgate had a great plan A, but when that started to fall apart he didn't know what to do. Mancini simply out-thought him.

I agree with this, but I think our culture helps create players like what we have, and not players like what Italy has

 

[Hammondo]

Did Southgate not know what to do or was he already eyeing penalties from the moment Italy equalized? Instead of using his deep squad to pin Italy back and use pace of Rashford/Sancho to target Chiellini and Bonucci? Hell, both Di Lorenzo and Emerson are nothing special yet England barely pressured them in ET.

There is no outcome where we pin them back.

 

[MU655]

Yes, because Southgate is getting praised like he has overachieved. He hasn't once overachieved with this team. Every team we have beaten in the tournaments under him have been when we clearly have the better squad.

I think he actually underachieved by playing such rubbish football with such a good squad. We could have been very dangerous to Italy. There is no need to play like that in the second half. Southgate is a pussy, end of discussion.

 

[L1nk]

Culture's not the issue, you have terrific players, you just have a knack of picking managers that are generally awful. Southgate did absolutely nothing management wise in the game and got given the England job, last nights example should tell you why he shouldn't be manager, he's got you set up to defend a 1-0 lead after about 20 minutes, with all that great talent you've got, absolutely crazy stupid.

 

[DixieDean]

1 shot on target in 120 mins. Sackable offence imo.

 

[DixieDean]

There is no outcome where we pin them back.

Probably true. However, there was an outcome we we hit them on counter with clever attack patterns.

 

[Hammondo]

At one part of the second half the possession was 71% Italy 29% England. This sums it all.

Yes I agree. I think our culture fails to produce the players who would change this though.

 

[Hammondo]

Probably true. However, there was an outcome we we hit them on counter with clever attack patterns.

Yes that's true. I do feel though that if he picked different players and we lost, he would still be heavily criticized.

 

[Zoo]

Nope, quite the opposite, like Grealish removing his medal as soon as he was presented with it, like what the feck have you won? This is the biggest achievement of your career so far. Behave.

Tbf can you blame him? He has been ridiculously underused by Southgate and even humiliated in the previous game by being brought on then hauled off.

 

[Hammondo]

I get frustrated and also find it funny how England fans react and they things they say after these games.

They say we should play x lineup of players, but looking at Italy then Mancini would not pick those players, or play that style. Also if we had the full Italy lineup the things the England fans here say would suggest they would not pick many of the Italian players. So we continue to go around in circles every international tournament.

We lost the game in midfield and defense, in terms of keeping and moving the ball. They passes the ball much quicker, controlled it quicker, and moved with the ball far better in these positions. Their players played very intelligently at times, the way they moved that ball vs a very defensive team and the way they got out of very tight situations was very impressive. We do not praise these players when we have them, and then over time we have a team with these weakness'.

We just never learn from these things. We have a media and fan base that hypes up certain types of players and then the England manager is put into a crap position. If he plays these players that are often over hyped then tactically it does not work, and if he doesn't and he tries to play more tactical, then he is attacked for not using them. He cannot win. We were the underdogs and yet if we lose the manager is attacked.

It is a cultural problem.

 

[FrankDrebin]

Wasn't it Germany in Euro 2016 that came back into a party atmosphere in Munich ?

The country appreciated the national teams effort in France, who knocked them out in the Semi's in Marseille, could see the direction their team was going and showered them in praise/respect.

Now are people going to accuse the Germans of lacking standards ? showing a weak mentality ? No.

So why the feck should we when we're clearly on the right path ?

English people just love being miserable, depressing feckers I guess.

 

[kthanksbye]

Tbf can you blame him? He has been ridiculously underused by Southgate and even humiliated in the previous game by being brought on then hauled off.

I can understand this, when he went off I thought it's to save him for the final and I expected him to start.

 

[VorZakone]

Wasn't it Germany in Euro 2016 that came back into a party atmosphere in Munich ?

The country appreciated the national teams effort in France, who knocked them out in the Semi's in Marseille, could see the direction their team was going and showered them in praise/respect.

Now are people going to accuse the Germans of lacking standards ? showing a weak mentality ? No.

So why the feck should we when we're clearly on the right path ?

English people just love being miserable, depressing feckers I guess.

Germany won the 2014 World Cup though. I'd bet on Germany winning another tournament before the English do.

 

[Abraxas]

Seems a weird suggestion to me when many were expecting England to win the game, despite Italy being the more obviously impressive during the tournament. I don't think the expectation was a problem. I don't think they were running up to take a penalty thinking it's okay if they miss because they've taken part. It just doesn't ring true with what happened, they got to a final and lost on penalties.

I would guess they've not won a trophy for a long time because it is difficult to do so and they've not usually been the best side. Maybe expectation was a problem in the past but I think in this situation they crumbled under the pressure of a penalty shootout, it's that simple. The game management could possibly have been better to try to win the match, but I don't think it's anything to do with expectation, the manager sees things differently.

 

[Siorac]

Yes, but not in terms of results. There's absolutely nothing wrong with being mostly satisfied with a silver medal in a European Championship.

But there seems to be no expectations, no standards set regarding the quality of football, and the style. The approach is that of the plucky underdog against every half-decent side. It's as if it's taken for granted that the England team are clearly inferior to the best sides and therefore suffocating the game and nicking a goal is their only hope.

There's also another potentially cultural issue: while England now started producing technical, skilful attackers, they still don't excel at ball retention. And they don't seem to produce players like Pedri, Modric, or Jorginho, midfielders who dictate the rhythm of the game. Scholes was the last. But that's necessary if you want to impose yourself on your opponent - but that doesn't seem to be a priority.

 

[FrankDrebin]

Germany won the 2014 World Cup though. I'd bet on Germany winning another tournament before the English do.

Sure, but I'm fairly confident, knowing how reactionary this country is, had England claimed victory last night and lost in Qatar the fans would instantly turn on them.
They were booed off last night ffs.

A semi final and a final in the past two Tournaments and the fans are still miserable feckers.

Last night I saw England in a major international tournament final and ,granted, we lost.

I never ,ever expected to see England in a final in my lifetime.

 

[Bebestation]

For me the problem was always the lack of of quality English Managers rather than the lack of quality English players.

When you consider that the best managers of PL history is arguably the Scottish SAF and the French Arsenal Wenger - then it says a lot.

Why is northern Irish (if I’m right) Brendan Rodgers allowed to have a go at managing Liverpool and Leicester- but Young English managers are not?

The only English Managers That constantly get jobs are the rubbish like allardyce and hodgson.

 

[VorZakone]

For me the problem was always the lack of of quality English Managers rather than the lack of quality English players.

When you consider that the best managers of PL history is arguably the Scottish SAF and the French Arsenal Wenger - then it says a lot.

Why is northern Irish (if I’m right) Brendan Rodgers allowed to have a go at managing Liverpool and Leicester- but Young English managers are not?

The only English Managers That constantly get jobs are the rubbish like allardyce and hodgson.

I disagree. That golden generation with Rio, Terry, Rooney, Lampard, Gerrard should also be ashamed of themselves. Too much ego, not enough unity.

 

[Hammondo]

Seems a weird suggestion to me when many were expecting England to win the game, despite Italy being the more obviously impressive during the tournament. I don't think the expectation was a problem. I don't think they were running up to take a penalty thinking it's okay if they miss because they've taken part. It just doesn't ring true with what happened, they got to a final and lost on penalties.

I would guess they've not won a trophy for a long time because it is difficult to do so and they've not usually been the best side. Maybe expectation was a problem in the past but I think in this situation they crumbled under the pressure of a penalty shootout, it's that simple. The game management could possibly have been better to try to win the match, but I don't think it's anything to do with expectation, the manager sees things differently.

Everyone I have seen who is not English thought we were the underdogs, but everyone who is English I have seen thinks the opposite. I do not understand it.

 

[Bebestation]

I disagree. That golden generation with Rio, Terry, Rooney, Lampard, Gerrard should also be ashamed of themselves. Too much ego, not enough unity.

Well I think that’s because Football was managed by choosing the best player possible rather than trying to get the best out of a particular tactic.

It reminds me of the football and mindset that was in Barcelona players during Rijkaard years - the Ronaldinho’s, the Eto’os and the Xavi’s all messed in one vs what Pep did playing to a particular tactic with players like Xavi, Iniesta and David Villa etc.

Have we ever had a Pep type manager? A del bosque or Enrique?

I want Southgate sacked - but I’m not surprised that there has been some progress to some level with a Young English manager. Too bad he was utter shit for Middlesbrough.

 

[KeanoMagicHat]

Sure, but I'm fairly confident, knowing how reactionary this country is, had England claimed victory last night and lost in Qatar the fans would instantly turn on them.
They were booed off last night ffs.

A semi final and a final in the past two Tournaments and the fans are still miserable feckers.

Last night I saw England in a major international tournament final and ,granted, we lost.

I never ,ever expected to see England in a final in my lifetime.

That's the essence of this thread though, if you didn't expect to see England in a final in your lifetime, why not? Are your standards that low? Why are they that low?

Because England have an unbelievable interest in the game, population to compete, serious money invested, the best league in the world which gives the players the best managers to learn from, among the best infrastructure, investment in academies and youth football to produce world-class players.

England should be making the European Championship final in its 60 year history, it's really not too much to ask that when Greece and Denmark have won it. Nobody is saying that England should be beating Brazil, Italy and Germany on a regular basis but England should expect a minimum level when so many factors are stacked in their favour.

 

[FrankDrebin]

That's the essence of this thread though, if you didn't expect to see England in a final in your lifetime, why not? Are your standards that low? Why are they that low?

Because England have an unbelievable interest in the game, population to compete, serious money invested, the best league in the world which gives the players the best managers to learn from, among the best infrastructure, investment in academies and youth football to produce world-class players.

England should be making the European Championship final in its 60 year history, it's really not too much to ask that when Greece and Denmark have won it. Nobody is saying that England should be beating Brazil, Italy and Germany on a regular basis but England should expect a minimum level when so many factors are stacked in their favour.

Oh I understand.

Hopefully England is finally on course to establish themselves after their form in the past 2 tournaments.

 

[Abraxas]

Everyone I have seen who is not English thought we were the underdogs, but everyone who is English I have seen thinks the opposite. I do not understand it.

Well, realistically speaking there wasn't that much in it which I think the bookmakers odds did reflect. They're always going to be more realistic than random fan opinion. It's probably not that weird to think a nation would be swept along by their own side, fairly normal fan behaviour.

With UK bookies England were the favourites, obviously there would be some margin involved to compensate for the money piled on, but it is still close to a fair estimation of the sides. Nothing in the game showed those odds as anything but fair either, Italy certainly the better side in possession but ultimately not many clear chances and it went 120 mins without anything decisive.

 

[rcoobc]

Italy had a manager who has managed hundreds of top-level, high pressure, matches. Southgate has probably managed about a dozen or so. It was telling.

Without sounding negative against Southgate, I completely agree with this

 

[Hammondo]

Well, realistically speaking there wasn't that much in it which I think the bookmakers odds did reflect. They're always going to be more realistic than random fan opinion. It's probably not that weird to think a nation would be swept along by their own side, fairly normal fan behaviour.

With UK bookies England were the favourites, obviously there would be some margin involved to compensate for the money piled on, but it is still close to a fair estimation of the sides. Nothing in the game showed those odds as anything but fair either, Italy certainly the better side in possession but ultimately not many clear chances and it went 120 mins without anything decisive.

We defended well, but by all statistics they were quite a lot better.

 

[rcoobc]

Too much ignorance amongst football supporters and pundits within English football.

The fact fans still underrated Saka but rate Grealish and Foden is reflective of the footballing problem in this country. Too much favouritism and a lack of football knowledge.

Supports : Arsenal

 

[Dancfc]

Yes and it filters through to club football aswell.

Could you see any even medium sized club on the continent accepting a manager who did a similar job to Arteta at Arsenal even with the cup? Could you see Real Madrid or Bayern fans accepting four years without a trophy like many United fans are? Could you see Barca fans taking dropping to 7th/8th on the chin like many Liverpool fans did in the Kenny/Brendan era one Suarez driven season aside? There was many Chelsea fans still behind Lampard when it was clear his tenure had totally collapsed to the point of no return (one member on The Shed even said he was concerned about us falling into a relegation scrap but still said Lampard should stay) but thankfully we haven't got owners and boards willing to exploit it.

I think it's a mix of little standards and people wanting to look like a better or morally superior fan "look at me I'm backing my out of their depth players and manager how great am I". The ironic thing is, this is what is helping the likes of Glazers and Kroenke stay longer, the pressure just isn't on them because fans in this country have no standards (the odd protests and banners is small fry and ultimately does nothing).

 

[NoLogo]

I blame Grealish's hair. He clearly should start over Mount or Saka but if a guy shows up in training with hair like Grealish, Imma bench him, no matter who good he is.

 

[JuveGER]

Only one team can win the tournament. During the event it is right to aim for the ultimate win and not be content with anything less. But after the fact there is no shame in looking back and being proud of reaching the final and losing by the smallest of margins. It does not mean that you don't have a winning mentality and it doesn't mean that you won't try to go even further next time. I am pretty sure the Italians would have been proud of a semifinal exit on penalties, but as shown it did not mean they didn't try their utmost to win the whole thing.

There is a grey area where you have this desire to win and where losing hurts so much, but where you can still have an healthy perspective on your performance even if you do not come first. In fact, it can be liberating and encouraging, too. The England team should be proud of their achievement, even if losing the final at home hurts, and they should use the fact that they came so close as an indication that they have what it takes to win a big prize.

 

[RedDevil@84]

It is pointless to talk about media pressure and all when your manager actively sabotages the game by not playing your best attackers in a game where you are looking for a goal.

 

[Zaphod2319]

I look at English fan behavior, it is even condoned and celebrated by people here. How can you expect a team to be world class when this is the culture they operate in?

 

[Kopral Jono]

Only one team can win the tournament. During the event it is right to aim for the ultimate win and not be content with anything less. But after the fact there is no shame in looking back and being proud of reaching the final and losing by the smallest of margins. It does not mean that you don't have a winning mentality and it doesn't mean that you won't try to go even further next time. I am pretty sure the Italians would have been proud of a semifinal exit on penalties, but as shown it did not mean they didn't try their utmost to win the whole thing.

There is a grey area where you have this desire to win and where losing hurts so much, but where you can still have an healthy perspective on your performance even if you do not come first. In fact, it can be liberating and encouraging, too. The England team should be proud of their achievement, even if losing the final at home hurts, and they should use the fact that they came so close as an indication that they have what it takes to win a big prize.

I’m getting increasingly annoyed at how England fans as well as the anti-England brigade are reacting to yesterday, the former with their looking for a scapegoat mindset and the latter with England cheated their way to the final nonsense. This is a refreshing post for a change.

 

[RUCK4444]

Low standards, high expectations. England in a nutshell.

How did Southgate get the job? When big Sam got the sack, right?

If Southgate isn’t good enough to manage in the PL then why is he good enough for a team as talented as England? (I’m a neutral.)

 

[duffer]

Low standards, high expectations. England in a nutshell.

How did Southgate get the job? When big Sam got the sack, right?

If Southgate isn’t good enough to manage in the PL then why is he good enough for a team as talented as England? (I’m a neutral.)

After Big Sam got sacked for being a sleazeball, the FA wanted someone with a more "safe" personality that they knew. Southgate had been U21 manager for a few years (so knew a lot of the younger players) at the time and the FA knew and trusted him.

It was never a bold appointment but it was a safe one. I don't agree that it was about low expectations.

This isn't a dig but why was Ole appointed manager of Man United? His CV as a manager certainly didn't warrant it but his personal history did and it has been proved to be the right decision.

Southgate got to a world cup semi and just lost a Euro final on pens, it's probably a lot better than the FA hoped for.