Are the lads back in training yet?

Nero

Full Member
Joined
Dec 23, 2008
Messages
949
Can't read anything into what is essentially a casual kickabout.

I mean, look at McTominay and Wan Bissaka on that 3rd West Brom goal. Not exactly intense.
 

Rasendori

Man Of Culture
Joined
May 30, 2016
Messages
1,278
Is it just me or is Rashford more skillful now? Which is weird because dribbling Is something that can hardly be developed.
Rashford showed plenty of flair at youth level, and he has experience playing as a right winger, as a #10, and a left winger, not to mention as a striker when he demonstrated his mental fortitude by stepping up to the responsibility when Demetri Mitchell (an explosive winger that was looking a level above the rest) got injured very early in the season. When Rashford invariably had a growth spurt, his playing style was almost unrecognisable, the youthful exuberance was missing as he had to adapt to not having pace as an advantage. His game was so affected by his growth spurt, that he considered becoming a defensive midfielder. Once he adjusted to the changes in his body, he was playing like his normal self.

At senior level, those that were unfamiliar with his exploits at youth level considered him to be a poacher off the basis of his first couple of games or so. I remember him showing elite technical ability against Watford, particularly on the right side (despite being a #9 in the starting berth) which impressed LVG so much, that he started Rashford RW the subsequent game.

Under Mourinho, he wasn't as expressive as he was at youth level, or his breakout season with LVG. That's not to say he didn't have his moments. A notable example being his performance against Anderlecht where he pulled off ; body feint, la croqueta, cruyff turns, rabona, stepover, nutmeg, in such a high stake game which reflected his confidence. Concurrently, he's been very expressive for England with Southgate as manager.

Once Ole arrived, we saw Rashford being incredibly expressive. That stopped from the PSG onwards where his technical ability was deviating to the point where he was getting criticised by the United faithful. And of course this season, he's once again demonstrated the skills in his level. He does have a bag of tricks amongst other areas in his locker. He needs to be more consistent in his technique though. The times when he runs the ball out of play should be anomalies, and its fair to say that has been the case this season. In the 2-0 defeat to West Ham this season, he was through on goal and he left the ball behind. Things like that shouldn't be happening to a player with high technical ability. Although Mbappe unequivocally has greater technique, even he had shocking moments of technique where he looked like Agbonlahor at times against us ... making him a laughing stock in the process.


Rashford has many things in his arsenal, dribbling, flair, the capability to combine shoot with reasonable power and accuracy with minimum backlift, free kicks, shots from distance, crossing, off the ball movement etc. One area I'd like to see him improve further is his passing/playing with his head up. This was particularly an issue when playing alongside Lukaku, as on multiple occasions he lacked the awareness to see the striker was in a much better position, and instead dribbled with his head down. Great pass from Rashford to Vardy. With Rashford's athleticism, opponents are going to back off him, so if he could use that to making probing passes that will make him unplayable.

Somewhat similar with Greenwood, there are some people that think he's a poacher. As he gets more acclimatised to the rigours of the EPL, we'll see more cases where he has a greater influence on the overall game, as opposed to being a peripheral figure.
 

jamesjimmybyrondean

Full Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2019
Messages
2,790
Rashford showed plenty of flair at youth level, and he has experience playing as a right winger, as a #10, and a left winger, not to mention as a striker when he demonstrated his mental fortitude by stepping up to the responsibility when Demetri Mitchell (an explosive winger that was looking a level above the rest) got injured very early in the season. When Rashford invariably had a growth spurt, his playing style was almost unrecognisable, the youthful exuberance was missing as he had to adapt to not having pace as an advantage. His game was so affected by his growth spurt, that he considered becoming a defensive midfielder. Once he adjusted to the changes in his body, he was playing like his normal self.

At senior level, those that were unfamiliar with his exploits at youth level considered him to be a poacher off the basis of his first couple of games or so. I remember him showing elite technical ability against Watford, particularly on the right side (despite being a #9 in the starting berth) which impressed LVG so much, that he started Rashford RW the subsequent game.

Under Mourinho, he wasn't as expressive as he was at youth level, or his breakout season with LVG. That's not to say he didn't have his moments. A notable example being his performance against Anderlecht where he pulled off ; body feint, la croqueta, cruyff turns, rabona, stepover, nutmeg, in such a high stake game which reflected his confidence. Concurrently, he's been very expressive for England with Southgate as manager.

Once Ole arrived, we saw Rashford being incredibly expressive. That stopped from the PSG onwards where his technical ability was deviating to the point where he was getting criticised by the United faithful. And of course this season, he's once again demonstrated the skills in his level. He does have a bag of tricks amongst other areas in his locker. He needs to be more consistent in his technique though. The times when he runs the ball out of play should be anomalies, and its fair to say that has been the case this season. In the 2-0 defeat to West Ham this season, he was through on goal and he left the ball behind. Things like that shouldn't be happening to a player with high technical ability. Although Mbappe unequivocally has greater technique, even he had shocking moments of technique where he looked like Agbonlahor at times against us ... making him a laughing stock in the process.


Rashford has many things in his arsenal, dribbling, flair, the capability to combine shoot with reasonable power and accuracy with minimum backlift, free kicks, shots from distance, crossing, off the ball movement etc. One area I'd like to see him improve further is his passing/playing with his head up. This was particularly an issue when playing alongside Lukaku, as on multiple occasions he lacked the awareness to see the striker was in a much better position, and instead dribbled with his head down. Great pass from Rashford to Vardy. With Rashford's athleticism, opponents are going to back off him, so if he could use that to making probing passes that will make him unplayable.

Somewhat similar with Greenwood, there are some people that think he's a poacher. As he gets more acclimatised to the rigours of the EPL, we'll see more cases where he has a greater influence on the overall game, as opposed to being a peripheral figure.
Very good analysis. Especially the Greenwood bit
 

el3mel

Full Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2016
Messages
32,093
Location
Egypt
They had Fernandinho behind them. Do we have a similar player ? Much like Kroos and Modric who only started to click once Casemiro played behind them. The problem is I just don't think we have the similar profile of defensive midfielder, the one who can do 90% of the defensive job and be a one man midfield on his own. Matic is way too slow for that and neither Scott nor Fred are pure defensive midfielders. The combination can work offensively but we'll most probably suffer defensively until we get a player like Fernandinho or Casemiro
 

Mickson

Full Member
Joined
Dec 2, 2007
Messages
1,464
Location
Vidal's knee
Has any manager ever, besides Pep, managed to be successful with such an unbalanced midfield? It's not like United can put in Pogba and Bruno and everything will be fine because they're great players. I highly doubt Ole will be successful in that department, and especially since we don't have a mobile player like Fernandinho behind. Also, both Maguire and Lindelof are quite slow.
 

jamesjimmybyrondean

Full Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2019
Messages
2,790
Has any manager ever, besides Pep, managed to be successful with such an unbalanced midfield? It's not like United can put in Pogba and Bruno and everything will be fine because they're great players. I highly doubt Ole will be successful in that department, and especially since we don't have a mobile player like Fernandinho behind. Also, both Maguire and Lindelof are quite slow.
Brendan Rodgers with Maddison Tielemans and Ndidi
 

fps

Full Member
Joined
Dec 22, 2018
Messages
4,008
Has any manager ever, besides Pep, managed to be successful with such an unbalanced midfield? It's not like United can put in Pogba and Bruno and everything will be fine because they're great players. I highly doubt Ole will be successful in that department, and especially since we don't have a mobile player like Fernandinho behind. Also, both Maguire and Lindelof are quite slow.
I think if Ole goes for it, for however long Pogba's here, the idea is that United will be a much more attacking side, with so much more of the ball, and control of the ball when they have it, that it won't seem unbalanced so much as dominant. Whether that works, we'll see. I feel for one of Fred and McTominay in that case, and I share concerns.
 

Walters_19_MuFc

Full Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2013
Messages
21,317
Location
Birmingham
I just don't get why everyone feels we should change our formation because Pogba is back. We were playing a 4231 with him at the start of the season, where he played in a double pivot with McTominay. Big difference is, we now have Bruno as a 10. If I were Ole, I'd stick to the same formation.
 

edcunited1878

Full Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2014
Messages
4,628
Location
San Diego, CA
They had Fernandinho behind them. Do we have a similar player ? Much like Kroos and Modric who only started to click once Casemiro played behind them. The problem is I just don't think we have the similar profile of defensive midfielder, the one who can do 90% of the defensive job and be a one man midfield on his own. Matic is way too slow for that and neither Scott nor Fred are pure defensive midfielders. The combination can work offensively but we'll most probably suffer defensively until we get a player like Fernandinho or Casemiro
Kroos, Modric, KDB, and Silva all had really good work rate and awareness when off the ball and got into defensive shape/position.

Pogba can do it well enough off the ball.
 

el3mel

Full Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2016
Messages
32,093
Location
Egypt
Kroos, Modric, KDB, and Silva all had really good work rate and awareness when off the ball and got into defensive shape/position.

Pogba can do it well enough off the ball.
Madrid tried Kroos and Modric combination in a double pivot system without Casemiro before Zidane and the end result was absolutely terrible in any big challenge.

It only started to work once they put in Casemiro behind who was a one man defensive midfield.

IMO for this combination to work properly in every game we'll have to get a proper DMF because we simply don't have anyone bar Matic who is pretty slow currently. For now I can see it work in easy games but in any big challenge we'll struggle defensively away from offensive side.
 

tenpoless

Full Member
Joined
Oct 20, 2014
Messages
5,271
Location
*Teleports behind you*
While the Pog-Bruno combination looks good on paper, I would rather Ole to play Pogba as needed and let him fight for the spot. Stay with Fred Scott and Bruno as starters for as long as a change isn't needed. No player should have the right to get back into the starting eleven immediately after coming back from injury, unless if you're Rashford or Bruno.
 
Last edited:

Santoryo

ripping the reward
Joined
Apr 10, 2014
Messages
5,049
I just don't get why everyone feels we should change our formation because Pogba is back. We were playing a 4231 with him at the start of the season, where he played in a double pivot with McTominay. Big difference is, we now have Bruno as a 10. If I were Ole, I'd stick to the same formation.
Exactly. The fact some people seem to be getting a hard time figuring out such a simple thing is baffling to me. The way you hear people talk and wonder about how we could fit Bruno and Pogba together, one would think we're talking about the hardest puzzle to ever need solving.

While the Pog-Bruno combination looks good on paper, I would rather Ole to play Pogba as needed and let him fight for the spot. Stay with Fred Scott and Bruno as starters for as long as a change isn't needed. No player should have the right to get back into the starting eleven immediately after coming back from injury, unless if you're Rashford or Bruno.
This post is ridiculous. And why are Rashford and Bruno the only ones afforded your worship in this case?
 

jamesjimmybyrondean

Full Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2019
Messages
2,790
Exactly. The fact some people seem to be getting a hard time figuring out such a simple thing is baffling to me. The way you hear people talk and wonder about how we could fit Bruno and Pogba together, one would think we're talking about the hardest puzzle to ever need solving.
It's weird because I remember during pre season when Pogba played there throughout everyone wanted Bruno because they felt he would slot in nicely and replace Lingard.
 

jamesjimmybyrondean

Full Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2019
Messages
2,790
While the Pog-Bruno combination looks good on paper, I would rather Ole to play Pogba as needed and let him fight for the spot. Stay with Fred Scott and Bruno as starters for as long as a change isn't needed. No player should have the right to get back into the starting eleven immediately after coming back from injury, unless if you're Rashford or Bruno.
As inconsistent as he's been he's been our best player and our only play wanted by all the best clubs and you want him to fight for his place?
 

tenpoless

Full Member
Joined
Oct 20, 2014
Messages
5,271
Location
*Teleports behind you*
Exactly. The fact some people seem to be getting a hard time figuring out such a simple thing is baffling to me. The way you hear people talk and wonder about how we could fit Bruno and Pogba together, one would think we're talking about the hardest puzzle to ever need solving.


This post is ridiculous. And why are Rashford and Bruno the only ones afforded your worship in this case?
They're important to the squad. We didn't miss Pogba that much. It's not worship.
 

tenpoless

Full Member
Joined
Oct 20, 2014
Messages
5,271
Location
*Teleports behind you*
As inconsistent as he's been he's been our best player and our only play wanted by all the best clubs and you want him to fight for his place?
Yes. We didn't miss him that much. The midfield three was working. I didn't say He is not a good player but I said, I hope Ole wil change the midfield as needed and not by a simple fact that Pogba is available. Fred and Scott have done really well also. Can't be unfair to them.
 

tenpoless

Full Member
Joined
Oct 20, 2014
Messages
5,271
Location
*Teleports behind you*
Here We go again, Pogba defenders. I was merely suggesting what I'd prefer and it seems to me like They think I was attacking Pogba or something. And him topping charts doesnt mean the CURRENT MIDFIELD THREE needs to be changed straight away. I said change as needed. Read it ffs.
 

jamesjimmybyrondean

Full Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2019
Messages
2,790
Yes. We didn't miss him that much. The midfield three was working. I didn't say He is not a good player but I said, I hope Ole wil change the midfield as needed and not by a simple fact that Pogba is available. Fred and Scott have done really well also. Can't be unfair to them.
You realise Matic was already benching Scott before this break?
 

limerickcitykid

There once was a kid from Toronto...
Joined
Oct 3, 2012
Messages
12,854
Location
East end / Oot and aboot
Cazorla and Ozil with Coquelin or Xhaka is another one.

The biggest point everyone is missing while they keep banging on about needing Fernandinho though is that midfields don’t play in a vacuum. Every is harping on about the third midfielder like they have to do everything completely ignoring there are 7 other players on the pitch too.

Yes we don’t have Fernandinho or Casemiro but we also don’t have Marcelo or Kyle Walker fecking up the pitch leaving huge wholes in the back line. Fernandinho or Casemiro cover lots of space out wide or split the CBs who then cover space out wide. We don’t need that. Shaw and AWB are strong enough defensively and stay back enough to cover the wings while also tucking in to allow Maguire or Lindelof to push up and press along with Matic/Fred/McTominay.

Midfielders don’t play in a 3v3 vacuum. There are 7 other players to fill roles too.
 

Rolaholic

Full Member
Joined
Aug 1, 2016
Messages
3,058
Here We go again, Pogba defenders. I was merely suggesting what I'd prefer and it seems to me like They think I was attacking Pogba or something. And him topping charts doesnt mean the CURRENT MIDFIELD THREE needs to be changed straight away. I said change as needed. Read it ffs.
Here you're really acting incredulous as to why people would question you about wanting our best outfield player to start on the bench when fit for Fred and McTominay, who had been injured almost as long as Pogba before the layoff?

Doesn't take a fanboy to be confused by that :lol:
 

jamesjimmybyrondean

Full Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2019
Messages
2,790
Here We go again, Pogba defenders. I was merely suggesting what I'd prefer and it seems to me like They think I was attacking Pogba or something. And him topping charts doesnt mean the CURRENT MIDFIELD THREE needs to be changed straight away. I said change as needed. Read it ffs.
Yes it does. Besides you're not changing anything. It's Pogba going back to the position he left due to injury
 

tenpoless

Full Member
Joined
Oct 20, 2014
Messages
5,271
Location
*Teleports behind you*
I'm done. You can't have an opinion regarding anything if it is related to Pogba not playing. My biggest mistake today is posting in this thread. Point taken.
 

Santoryo

ripping the reward
Joined
Apr 10, 2014
Messages
5,049
They're important to the squad. We didn't miss Pogba that much. It's not worship.
We went 11 games unbeaten without Rashford, still doesn't make him not important.

I have no qualms against a team best players walking back into the startling 11 even after a long injury lay off but to not include Pogba as one of our best player that should walk back in is ridiculous. Like I said Rashford wasn't there during our unbeaten run, still doesn't make him unimportant to the squad, same with Pogba or any of our better players.

I'm done. You can't have an opinion regarding anything if it is related to Pogba not playing. My biggest mistake today is posting in this thread. Point taken.
So childish.

Get your opinion challenged, you get salty then cry about it.
 

el3mel

Full Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2016
Messages
32,093
Location
Egypt
Yes it does. Besides you're not changing anything. It's Pogba going back to the position he left due to injury
The position no one really was convinced he should play in. No one was convinced with Pogba playing as a double pivot, everyone wanted him part of 3 midfielders to "free him" and "release him" while the general idea was that playing him in double pivot restricts him.
 

Brightonian

Full Member
Joined
Sep 22, 2012
Messages
13,033
Location
Juanderlust
Is it just me or is Rashford more skillful now? Which is weird because dribbling Is something that can hardly be developed.
He always has been. In the youth teams he was all flair and skill. The pace and finishing came with a relatively late growth spurt. That's why it was so hilarious to hear people criticising him as 'just fast' and having 'no technique'.
 

jamesjimmybyrondean

Full Member
Joined
Feb 26, 2019
Messages
2,790
The position no one really was convinced he should play in. No one was convinced with Pogba playing as a double pivot, everyone wanted him part of 3 midfielders to "free him" and "release him" while the general idea was that playing him in double pivot restricts him.
Yet the man who 'freed him' and watched him kill it in the LCM role decided to play him in a pivot for some reason. The fact that all of Ole Mourinho and Deschamps play him in the pivot role is quite telling
 

el3mel

Full Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2016
Messages
32,093
Location
Egypt
Yet the man who 'freed him' and watched him kill it in the LCM role decided to play him in a pivot for some reason. The fact that all of Ole Mourinho and Deschamps play him in the pivot role is quite telling
No one agreed with managers on playing him in double pivot and thought that was ideal, but no magically we'll agree that's his best position ?
 

Adisa

likes to take afvanadva wothowi doubt
Joined
Nov 28, 2014
Messages
39,363
Location
Birmingham
I just don't get why everyone feels we should change our formation because Pogba is back. We were playing a 4231 with him at the start of the season, where he played in a double pivot with McTominay. Big difference is, we now have Bruno as a 10. If I were Ole, I'd stick to the same formation.
The thing is even in our decent run, we did not create enough chances from open play imo. I simply think you have to play both players if you can. Both players just have to make sacrifices like Silva and KDB did.
The common theme among all the teams that did something similar successfully (Real, Leicester and City), they all ha workhorses but good tactical players behind both midfielders. We don't have that at the moment.
 

Rozay

Master of Hindsight
Joined
Oct 22, 2012
Messages
18,799
Location
...
While the Pog-Bruno combination looks good on paper, I would rather Ole to play Pogba as needed and let him fight for the spot. Stay with Fred Scott and Bruno as starters for as long as a change isn't needed. No player should have the right to get back into the starting eleven immediately after coming back from injury, unless if you're Rashford or Bruno.
He’s played like 5 league games for us. He’s got a long way to go before he is considered a better player than Pogba. If you are so keen on players fighting for their place, it is ludicrous to not have a creative midfielder on the list of players who needs to earn his place when his competition is Paul Pogba.
 

ghaliboy

Snitches on Tom Hagen
Joined
Apr 29, 2009
Messages
10,851
Location
Sydchester
Basing it on the reaction to my original post earlier then yes. Opinions on him I thought were split down the middle but based on today yes for sure.
Its always the same 6 or 7 delusional weirdos who have to take everything personally and react as though making any minor negative point about him requires posting 6 youtube compilations and a torrent of shock and awe abuse to try and skew the narrative.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

Full Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2018
Messages
5,086
The thing is even in our decent run, we did not create enough chances from open play imo. I simply think you have to play both players if you can. Both players just have to make sacrifices like Silva and KDB did.
The common theme among all the teams that did something similar successfully (Real, Leicester and City), they all ha workhorses but good tactical players behind both midfielders. We don't have that at the moment.
Scott? Fred? Keep in mind Pep was interested to sign Fred, you don't think he wanted him to replace Fernandinho?

And also to be fair though, Real, Leicester & City don't play double pivot. The poster literally just mentioned fact that we are playing double pivot formation with Pogba being used in that double pivot role.

And beside, we are likely to change formation to 5 defenders when playing against top opposition, Ole is flexible with his formation choice depending on the opposition. Having extra centre back will also give another good protection against top opposition.
 

Yagami

Kira did nothing wrong
Joined
Jan 27, 2013
Messages
9,349
Seeing Carrick train with the boys. Man, I miss him. He'd be perfect to have alongside Pogba and Bruno right now.