Eden Hazard fits the bill.... not sure of the full story at Madrid and injuries have been an issue but his time at Madrid has been a non-event
Are there any players that were really good, but "wasted" their prime?
- Thread starter Eli Zee
- Start date
-
In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
me
It has but Hazard doesn't fit the bill if you are answering the thread title question. How can he be said to have wasted his prime? His prime was at Chelsea.
Nope. You can't have wasted your prime when you won the World Cup, the Champions League and the Ballon D'Or. Could he have done more? Probably but you can't say he wasted his prime. He achieved basically everything in the game
Again, wrong. That is not wasting your prime.
Someone said Bale.. clearly never watched Madrid much. Too many players suffer from being compared to Cristiano, Nani had it the same, so with Rooney, Benzema..
Ever Banega?
He won a treble with Barca though. For a lot players that would have been enough.
De Gea
Alan Shearer
Zlatan.
Kane
Gerrard.
Alan Shearer
Zlatan.
Kane
Gerrard.
Wasted career for me is a player who had all the talent but made the wrong move where they just couldn't play well because of his choice. Not a player playing well but at an unsuccessful club, so I don't count De Gea, Kane, Shearer etc. I don't think those players see it as a waster career or have any regrets.
The 2 main guys for me that fit the bill:
The 2 main guys for me that fit the bill:
- Neymar - could have been seen as an all timer and when fit, up there somewhere close to Ronaldo/Messi over the years (not on par, but still). Has all the talent in the world, performed to a ridiculously high level, but went to PSG to get out of Messi's shadow but in the end just went to a league that nobody cares about where every season just became irrelevant. Constant injury problems too and now his legacy will be nothing special
- Pogba - again, had all timer level talent from midfield. Showed great performances for Juve and for France over the years. Won the World Cup for France so he'll always have the biggest prize. But his club career went to shit because he came to United at the wrong time, had the wrong managers in charge of him, and stayed at United where his prime was completely wasted. And then the past few years injuries took over and killed him as a player. Legacy is pretty much an irrelevant player at club level who achieved nothing, but could have been seen as a great had he picked the right club that was settled and had a good coach.
Finally, someone comes up with a pick that actually makes sense. The hilarity of people picking some of the greatest players of this generation (and in some cases the greatest players of all time FFS) as players who 'wasted their prime'. The mind boggles
This is literally the case with Pogba. If it was any other club, then everyone on this forum would say it. But because it was us who wasted it, then you have naive/blinkered people refusing to admit it. United was an absolute graveyard for players to come to. That's why Bellingham and Haaland made the smart choices to go to Dortmund over United. It was not a case of "overhyped players that just weren't good enough for United". The reason so many players flopped is because we had 4 (permanent) shite managers who were not suited to the club, who didn't know what they wanted with transfers, who didn't know how to get the best out of the players, and that's why no matter who we signed, we looked like shite. Hell an easy example is just looking at Varane last year with incompetence vs this year with the right manager.
Pogba the last few years, yes, injuries killed him and it wouldn't have mattered anymore. But the first 4 years at United was the wrong manager not knowing how to get the best out of him, leading to inconsistent as hell performances and an unbalanced team. It's not on one player to balance our whole team. Mourinho/Ole kept asking them to do different things and they didn't know what they wanted him to do, so Pogba couldn't do it. He produced a fantastic level for Juve before we signed him, and for France throughout his prime. Pogba is literally the biggest and most accurate example for this thread.
Actually agree with this. Great players should be seen as great players throughout their primes. They should want to be key players. Bale left Spurs and turned into a bit part/squad player for the rest of his career at Madrid. Won everything, even had some key big games... but many didn't even want him at Madrid, he wasn't anything close to being a key player, and then the injuries of course killed him. His career post Spurs petered out into, barring a few great big games, was kind of irrelevant from what he contributed.
Great players settling with being squad players is another big example of a waste for me. A great player being seen as a legend for a club that might not win anything, that's not a wasted career. If he remained a key player throughout his prime where he fulfilled his potential, nah that's fine. Going somewhere to just sit on the bench and be an unimportant player, that's what is a waste.
Neymar has nearly 700 goal contributions in his career and 30 major trophies including the biggest club prizes in Europe and South America. He's also scored more goals for Brazil than anyone else. He hasn't wasted anything.
At least for me, if you’ve won a World Cup or league trophy, you’ve won something. Shouts about Pogba and Ibra having wasted their careers are ridiculous, although Pogba deserves criticism for other reasons. Gerrard won a CL.
The one who stands out though above all is Kane.
The one who stands out though above all is Kane.
He joined Juve a year after they lost a CL final to Milan. Liverpool fluking their way to the 2005 trophy doesn‘t make them a better club to be at than Juvnetus or Inter. When France played Italy in the WC final, 8 of Zlatan‘s teammates (Vieira, Thuram, Buffon, Del Piero…) took part in that final (many of the rest were his league rivals…)... But maybe he should have wanted to play alongside Carragher instead…
Neymar post Barcelona has wasted his career racking up goal contributions in a league that isn't one of the major leagues. He didn't go there for some loyalty of his loved team, he went there to get out of Messi's shadow but instead his club career has turned pretty irrelevant due to going to PSG, where nobody cares about how he does domestically and in Europe he got constant injuries so again, didn't do much. A player like him should be seen as far greater at club level than what he will be seen as. So he definitely qualifies IMO.
His goal record for Brazil is great and all, but I'm focusing on club career rather than international career. Even so - he's been really unlucky with injuries during world cups so that one is unfortunate too.
Asamoah Gyan wasted his prime playing in Qatar (I think). But he had a large entourage and was paying for a lot of people
Guti is a strange one, he spent virtually his whole career at Real and won a bunch of stuff there so it's hard to say he wasted anything. But there is a sense that he could have been a better and more consistent player than he was with the talent he had
The strange thing about Neymar is how he is simultaneously irrelevant in the eyes of so many people while the same people can't shut up about him and seem to know everything about him on and off field. It's almost amazing.
It's not that strange. Guti should have left Real Madrid for a club that would actually play him more often. He was mainly treated as a squad player which could be seen as a waste.
He helped PSG get much further than they've ever gotten in the CL prior and he's played brilliantly for them when he's been fit. He hasn't wasted anything, he's just had bad luck with injuries. He's still easily one of the best players in the world, one of the best players of his generation and one of the best ever Brazilian players. That does not = a wasted prime.
Also Neymar started playing very early, in that sense he is closer to someone like Hazard who played early in physical leagues and both ended up with a lot of injuries in the second part of their 20s. Rooney's decline around that age could also lead to a different opinion when it comes to these very early bloomers.
Is this thread about trophies won? Or the type of footballer he evolved into?
Because I think a player could have been in a team that won a lot of trophies but still not reached his potential and potential can't just be earmarked by the number of goals scored.
I could argue that with better managers, Gerrard could have been even more amazing than he was.
Cristiano Ronaldo's conscious decision to focus on goal scoring primarily instead of the tricky winger that he was, brought his overall game down a level even though he's Madrid's top scorer (subject to correction) and won loads of trophies.
Nasri and Oxlade Chamberlain have won loads but can anyone say they've fulfilled their potential? Ox wasn't even mentioned as a candidate for the England back up squad for the last World Cup never mind as a starter. Nasri was the next Zidane but where did that go?
Because I think a player could have been in a team that won a lot of trophies but still not reached his potential and potential can't just be earmarked by the number of goals scored.
I could argue that with better managers, Gerrard could have been even more amazing than he was.
Cristiano Ronaldo's conscious decision to focus on goal scoring primarily instead of the tricky winger that he was, brought his overall game down a level even though he's Madrid's top scorer (subject to correction) and won loads of trophies.
Nasri and Oxlade Chamberlain have won loads but can anyone say they've fulfilled their potential? Ox wasn't even mentioned as a candidate for the England back up squad for the last World Cup never mind as a starter. Nasri was the next Zidane but where did that go?
Hleb
Was one of the leagues best playmakers at Arsenal. Became obsolete at Barcelona, and faded away.
Was one of the leagues best playmakers at Arsenal. Became obsolete at Barcelona, and faded away.
Leaving that aside, I think the point is that his talent was way above his performances and that he was not committed to his profession as much as his other teammates. The last one was also the opinion of one Madrid sports directors at some point.
Gascoigne and Neymar for me. Two talents that you could see from an early age weren’t just great players, they were prodigies, absolute geniuses.
The former has his demons and needed more guidance navigating his career. He is a cult hero at a few clubs, but it is far and away from what he could/should have done. As a footballer, he had it all, skillful, creative, tenacious. One of the very greatest talents England has ever produced.
Neymar is a special one for me. In Brazil, my second team is Santos and I got to watch him come through. He was unbelievable, and you could tell just how special he would become. It’s insane to suggest that a trophy laden career and a treble with Barcelona is throwing away his peak, but he deserved the very best spotlight. That would have probably been a move to the Premier League and the stardom that his talent deserved.
As it was, he went for the glitz and glamour of PSG and I don’t think he will ever be remembered for the player he was. Very few people watch his games and I refuse to believe we have ever really seen a sustained Neymar at 100% since that move. Too much freedom, too many distractions and a lost opportunity to see a true prodigy, from 25 onwards, on the grandest of stages.
The former has his demons and needed more guidance navigating his career. He is a cult hero at a few clubs, but it is far and away from what he could/should have done. As a footballer, he had it all, skillful, creative, tenacious. One of the very greatest talents England has ever produced.
Neymar is a special one for me. In Brazil, my second team is Santos and I got to watch him come through. He was unbelievable, and you could tell just how special he would become. It’s insane to suggest that a trophy laden career and a treble with Barcelona is throwing away his peak, but he deserved the very best spotlight. That would have probably been a move to the Premier League and the stardom that his talent deserved.
As it was, he went for the glitz and glamour of PSG and I don’t think he will ever be remembered for the player he was. Very few people watch his games and I refuse to believe we have ever really seen a sustained Neymar at 100% since that move. Too much freedom, too many distractions and a lost opportunity to see a true prodigy, from 25 onwards, on the grandest of stages.
Did you actually watch him play at PSG regularly? IMO, he played his best football there for a couple of years, better than at Santos and better than at Barcelona. Had injury problems of course. I can't argue with the notion that there are bigger stages than PSG though.
What kind of logic is that, I mean, seriously? Who said anything about Liverpool? Which part of the quality of the overall league are you incapable of understanding? And how is the level of the Italian and French national team reflective of the overall quality of the league?
I will repeat, Zlatan went to Serie A played in Serie A and Ligue from 2004 until 2018. In this particular period, the English LEAGUE, not Liverpool, and later on La Liga had the most consistent presence in the most elite European competitions where the biggest stars built put their stamp on the European games. Zlatan had ONE season in the middle of that period playing for a team that was considered tier 1 and favorites to dominate Europe and he failed whereas the more accomplished Eto'o who replaced him and scored in major semi finals and finals went to Inter and achieved what Zlatan could never achieve on that particular stage.
This is the last I will write about this if you still don't understand. Zlatan is one of the best strikers in the past 20 years, but when differentiating between the best of the best, I would put him in the category below Lewandowski, Suarez, Benzema and Henry and maybe some others I would view as debatable. If you don't agree with this and your argument back is how many teammates he had who won what or you cherry picking a specific opponent to make some random point, please just refrain and let's end this debate here.
Aguero, David Silva, Kevin de bruyne and basically every city player who is / was talented enough.
It was intermittent, and he wasn’t playing against the best of the best regularly. I am not going to insult the French league, but as you say, there were bigger stages and a player, as good as him, at their peak, deserved to be on one.
I just think it’s sad that we were deprived of that having been invested in him from 16-17 years old.
Fair enough. I still don't think his name belongs in a thread where the OP talked about people 'wasting their prime' and 'not having successful careers' (ditto many of the other crazy choices made by posters given the above criteria: Zlatan, Villa, Hazard etc.) but I take your point.
If Neymar went to City instead of Paris in 2017 I reckon he'd be seen as a much much much better player than it is currently the case.
There'd probably be no debates between him and anyone but Messi/CR honestly and he might have even won a ballon d'or
There'd probably be no debates between him and anyone but Messi/CR honestly and he might have even won a ballon d'or
You are mixing 3 very different periods of time (04-09 has nothing to do with 12-16. ). Zlatan joined Serie A in 04, when it was stronger than PL by most rational measures. And when he moved to Inter it was still a good move to a top club. The PL was starting to catch up, but it didn't become the best league until around the 07/08 season.. Joining Inter wasn't a bad move if winning the CL was the ambition.
You are mistaken in believing that Arsenal or Chelsea had a higher status in Europe than the Italian big 3 back then... Italy had 3 clubs in UEFA's top 5 at the time. The other 2 clubs were Madrid and Barcelona. I cherry-picked Pool because they had the highest ranking amongst English clubs.
I agree with the last part of your argument, but I believe it would have been much more memorable to win the CL for PSG in 2015 or 2016 than winning it for Barca or Madrid. L Blanc f***d up in 2016 against City and lost them their best shot... Zlatan made a choice, and it didn't work as far as the CL goes, but I still have hard time thinking he "wasted his career".
My criteria is much more abstract tbh which I understand that I probably did not communicate clearly. I am not looking at coefficients and points in particular. You are right in that those are different eras but I think my criteria is what I judge to be games at the very top end of the game. I look at Benzema and see game changing performances in major knockout games and finals. I see huge performances in Clasicos in a time when Clasicos had the likes of Messi, Ronaldo, Xavi, Iniesta, Modric, Mourinho, Pep and Ancelotti. Lewandowski once scored four goals in a CL semi final vs Real Madrid and then went on to lead Bayern to another CL scoring in virtually every round. Suarez's performances in Barcelona's treble season are the stuff of elite. Standing out in a team like that and stamping his authority at that level elevates him for me to that tier.You are mixing 3 very different periods of time (04-09 has nothing to do with 12-16. ). Zlatan joined Serie A in 04, when it was stronger than PL by most rational measures. And when he moved to Inter it was still a good move to a top club. The PL was starting to catch up, but it didn't become the best league until around the 07/08 season.. Joining Inter wasn't a bad move if winning the CL was the ambition.
You are mistaken in believing that Arsenal or Chelsea had a higher status in Europe than the Italian big 3 back then... Italy had 3 clubs in UEFA's top 5 at the time. The other 2 clubs were Madrid and Barcelona. I cherry-picked Pool because they had the highest ranking amongst English clubs.
I agree with the last part of your argument, but I believe it would have been much more memorable to win the CL for PSG in 2015 or 2016 than winning it for Barca or Madrid. L Blanc f***d up in 2016 against City and lost them their best shot... Zlatan made a choice, and it didn't work as far as the CL goes, but I still have hard time thinking he "wasted his career".
I look at Zlatan and remember in 2009 when his Inter played us. We dominated in Italy but failed to win. At OT, it was one of the most one sided 2/0s you will see. I remember British pundits and fans mocking him for not being a big game player which I thought was very unfair and typical British arrogance. I thought the guy had everything, he had the talent, power, technique of the best of them and was only a matter of time before he showed that level at games of that caliber but he never did. He never tested himself at the highest level and I've no idea if it was a question of choice or bad timing or if that one year at Barcelona burned him or scared him or whatever.
A career wasted is probably harsh and I give you that. But it's definitely for me a questionable career in the sense that it could have been more when I look at his talent and failure to put his stamp on the biggest games in Europe in a career that spanned over 20 years. A player of that caliber should have been playing, scoring and influencing CL semi finals and finals and nominated for Balon d'Ors. Instead, he is at the level of Van Nistelrooy or Agüero IMO, not a bad return in the least but you get the feeling whereas for RvN, he extracted the most out of his talent, Zlatan could have had more.
When you have the talent of Neymar or Mbappe and you spend your best years in the French league, you are by definition wasting your prime.
Disagree