Are we… a sleeping giant?

Fortitude

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Would be great if you read this before answering:

devilish said:
Let's start football wise. We haven't won the CL since 2008 and the EPL title since 2012. Many focus on the Glazers but INEOS record in football (OGC NICE and Lausanne) is horrendous. Since they came at United they improved certain things (there's more discipline and a better environment + last year transfers weren't bad), certain things remained the same or improved slightly (inability to sell deadwood) and certain things were nothing short to moronic. For example we hired and then sacked the DOF at record time, we stuck to ETH when we should have let him go and their data driven approach led to Amorim who was the worst manager since prior Atkinson. We did end up 3rd but we had far less games which is a huge advantage (Napoli went from 10th to Serie A winners despite losing Kvara and Osimhen) and Carrick which I feel is being poorly backed this summer

Financially we had slightly improved but its a drop on the ocean when comparing to the task in hand. United hasn''t made a profit since 2018-2019, we're 1.3B in debt and since the Glazers bought us we've paid between 850m and 1b in interest repayment, 166m in dividends. OT was left to rot and its estimated that it would cost between 2b and 4b to build a new stadium. Even the staunchest of INEOS fanboys admit that this will require external investment as the money can't be borrowed through banks. The Glazers won't put their money in their pocket and INEOS are 18b in debt. Yep its a B not an M.

Meanwhile as we're busy balancing books and buying from the pound shop others are spending big. Arsenal, City, Liverpool (Barcola) and even Spurs. Yet we still need to make it to back to back CL qualification.

I hope that these people understand their limit and are shoring up the ship just enough to attract a big buyer with loads of money and real ambition cause I can't see either group having the competence, the funds and the expertise to awaken this sleeping giant.
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Not to put devilish on blast, but it’s an interesting question. What makes a giant sleepy, and what point is it spark out? How many years without the title qualifies, 10? 15? 20? :confused:
 
when i was 6 i was constantly badgering my parents for a pet. a dog, a cat, a rabbit, a gerbil, a hamster. anything. every weekend i’d ask if we could go to the pet shop and look at the animals. i asked if i could get one for my birthday. for christmas. if i could get one if i was a good boy.

they finally relented and i came home from school one day to find a fish tank in my bedroom, complete with a small goldfish. goldie quickly became my best friend. he was the first thing i spoke to in the morning and the last thing i spoke to at night. we had such adventures together and our bond only grew stronger as time went on.

one day i came home from school and goldie was at the top of his tank, on his side. he normally zoomed around the moment he saw me. i tried to get his attention with some fish flakes, which smell better than they taste. he didn’t flinch. i went to get my mummy and tell her goldie was being silly and laying on his side. she came in and said he was just sleeping. i closed the curtains and the door and left him to it. when i came back a few hours later the fish tank was gone. mummy said he was so tired because his time with us was up and he had to go back and live with his goldfish family. i was incredibly upset but the thought of goldie playing with his little brothers and sisters, and being such a good boy for his mummy and daddy, made the loss of him a bit more bearable.

years later, i finally understand. i don’t think we’re sleeping, i think we’re goldie.
 
I agree with him 100%. Theres players in the pl who have no memory of us ever winning the pl and weren't even born the last time we won the cl. Kids in playgrounds don't look at us like a big side, I've got apprentices at work who dont see us as even in top 4 sides. They class city, Liverpool, Chelsea and arsenal above us, they don't care how good we were before they were even born.
Since we last won the pl, city have won it 8 times, Liverpool twice, Chelsea twice, Arsenal once, Leicester once. Since we last won the cl, Liverpool, city and Chelsea (twice) have all won it.
We have the worst owners in the league with zero ambition, we don't have financial advantage or muscle like we used to, we have a stadium in need of repair. We now see cl qualification or a league Cup as a good season while never challenging for the biggest titles, we used to laugh and mock teams like that. We are a club now who we would've mocked years gone by.
Then we have a subsection of fans who think if you want to get back to the top you're a glory hunter and lets be happy with our level. People always then give 3-5 year plans, then start again, there's no rush, before we know it it will be 30 years without a title.
 
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rimaldo said:
when i was 6 i was constantly badgering my parents for a pet. a dog, a cat, a rabbit, a gerbil, a hamster. anything. every weekend i’d ask if we could go to the pet shop and look at the animals. i asked if i could get one for my birthday. for christmas. if i could get one if i was a good boy.

they finally relented and i came home from school one day to find a fish tank in my bedroom, complete with a small goldfish. goldie quickly became my best friend. he was the first thing i spoke to in the morning and the last thing i spoke to at night. we had such adventures together and our bond only grew stronger as time went on.

one day i came home from school and goldie was at the top of his tank, on his side. he normally zoomed around the moment he saw me. i tried to get his attention with some fish flakes, which smell better than they taste. he didn’t flinch. i went to get my mummy and tell her goldie was being silly and laying on his side. she came in and said he was just sleeping. i closed the curtains and the door and left him to it. when i came back a few hours later the fish tank was gone. mummy said he was so tired because his time with us was up and he had to go back and live with his goldfish family. i was incredibly upset but the thought of goldie playing with his little brothers and sisters, and being such a good boy for his mummy and daddy, made the loss of him a bit more bearable.

years later, i finally understand. i don’t think we’re sleeping, i think we’re goldie.
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Quality, love your commitment

Hopefully this season doesn't end up flushed down the toilet...like goldie.
 
I have that poster on ignore, but I'll take a stab at it a long post moaning, also lastly re deadwood we've actually got a really small squad where there are probably less than a handful of players you'd class as deadwood and one of them got injured before we could sell them
 
Gavinb33 said:
I have that poster on ignore, but I'll take a stab at it a long post moaning, also lastly re deadwood we've actually got a really small squad where there are probably less than a handful of players you'd class as deadwood and one of them got injured before we could sell them
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the basic gist of it was how he feels himself and gavinb33 may have gotten off on the wrong foot. how he looks forward to reading gavin’s posts and how they’ve often given him food for thought and challenged some of his preconceptions.
 
Yes we definitely are. Sporadic breaking of the transfer record and wage structure with no real plan isn't going to be enough to turn the club around. A longer term strategy was always needed and what we've always lacked post Fergie. Owners who come to the games and who could see soooo then we haven't had a right winger since Nani until Amad or bought in a proper prime midfielder since Carrick? and we've been on the slide as a top team since Ronaldo left?

The glazers priorities were clearly not the same as the fans ever. If they happened to somehow align along the way then all well and good but they were letting the club wilt and die in front of us.

Ineos probably aren't the answer as they aren't wealthy enough to clear the debt and fund the stadium but at the same time it's nice to remember what it's like to have hands on owners again who actually hold themselves accountable and engage with the team and the fans and can see and will address the holes in the team and the stagnation in the facilities and the various departments at the club. It's progress but it's not enough more than likely in this day and age.

If we ever clear the debt and become a steady top 4 club again then we are self sufficient and we can consistently go out and sign these top players like Anderson and Diomande again. When that will be is anyone's guess. But for now for me any sensible progress is better than nothing. We need to solidify as a top 4 club again as the foundation. That might not even be this season but I think we will make it again and add more quality next summer and shift more bloat
 
rimaldo said:
when i was 6 i was constantly badgering my parents for a pet. a dog, a cat, a rabbit, a gerbil, a hamster. anything. every weekend i’d ask if we could go to the pet shop and look at the animals. i asked if i could get one for my birthday. for christmas. if i could get one if i was a good boy.

they finally relented and i came home from school one day to find a fish tank in my bedroom, complete with a small goldfish. goldie quickly became my best friend. he was the first thing i spoke to in the morning and the last thing i spoke to at night. we had such adventures together and our bond only grew stronger as time went on.

one day i came home from school and goldie was at the top of his tank, on his side. he normally zoomed around the moment he saw me. i tried to get his attention with some fish flakes, which smell better than they taste. he didn’t flinch. i went to get my mummy and tell her goldie was being silly and laying on his side. she came in and said he was just sleeping. i closed the curtains and the door and left him to it. when i came back a few hours later the fish tank was gone. mummy said he was so tired because his time with us was up and he had to go back and live with his goldfish family. i was incredibly upset but the thought of goldie playing with his little brothers and sisters, and being such a good boy for his mummy and daddy, made the loss of him a bit more bearable.

years later, i finally understand. i don’t think we’re sleeping, i think we’re goldie.
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I’m glad you didn’t get a gerbil. But I don’t think we’re goldie yet. There’s still enough time for the club to sell out one last time. If not by our indigenous middle eastern brothers, then maybe by a wealthy Asian entity.
 
Yes. Because of our history...

But you can die in your sleep. Theres no guarantee we'll "wake". Although time fixes most things and as Liverpool showed, it can be done
 
Where would a 'sleeping giant' be found?.... in the Theatre of Dreams..... of course
 
Fortitude said:
Would be great if you read this before answering:


Not to put devilish on blast, but it’s an interesting question. What makes a giant sleepy, and what point is it spark out? How many years without the title qualifies, 10? 15? 20? :confused:
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Yes - United have not challenged or even had the ambition to win the title or CL since 2013.

Managers have been judged on their results against finishing 4th/5th or whatever achieves champions league qualification. Not on their results against winning the title.
 
AFIABM said:
Yes - United have not challenged or even had the ambition to win the title or CL since 2013.

Managers have been judged on their results against finishing 4th/5th or whatever achieves champions league qualification. Not on their results against winning the title.
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Exactly. The top clubs are judged whether they win the league or the cl. We are judged on whether we just qualify for the cl
 
I don't consider United a sleeping giant simply because I think of the term differently. To me it means clubs where people have forgotten how big they are. United have always been famous even in times without success. No question we've underperformed post-Fergie though. Given that we've been in at least the top 5 clubs on both transfers and wages pretty consistently, we should have been in the top 5 in terms of success too, more or less.
 
No, we are dead giant, whose corpse is slowly withering away.
 
Sadly, yes. It’s been thirteen years since we were a title contender (the year we last won it). Fifteen years since a champions league semi final.

Jesus that’s depressing when you think about it.
 
We were a sleeping giant when Fergie came along in 1986. 40 years later, we're essentially in the same state, only with the debt of a small country piled on top.
 
It was going to happen & it was obvious from day one when players like Vidic looked a different player as soon as SAF went that we were going to turn to a sleeping giant.

The problem is that we were reliant on one man as our manager for decades at the club & we tried to replace his role at our club for 15 years with different managers which left an imbalance of tactics and players that do not fit our following manager. We finally realise that we need to stop trying to replace SAF as a manager who looked after the club mostly by himself from who we buy, who we sell and what tactics we would play.

For the first time I feel like United can sack Carrick and we will retain a good quality of players for a new manager to work with. Theres no more reason for a manager like Ten Hag to join only to buy a quarter of his Ajax team. We have a good level of quality in the players where a manager who doesn't get the best out of them will ultimately stand out as the problems. A lack of egotistical players which directly correlate with high wages as we have seen with players like Rashford & Sanchos attitude.

Some people will say that I'm brain washed by Ineos for actually feeling like we are going somewhere, that im now more excited about a player that I've never heard about join us than sign someone whose wages will lead to complications and even jealousy within our own dressing room.

Signing Ronaldo to replace David Beckham felt like a serious step down because i didnt know who he was. Watching an unknown young player develop was a pleasure I've not really had at United & within 3 transfer windows im finally seeing these random unknown young players with potential pop up again.

.We've failed to replace SAF & actually acknowledging that for once is a good thing for our future so we can finally move on and becoming a Giant that finds it's feet again.
 
quadrant said:
I don't consider United a sleeping giant simply because I think of the term differently. To me it means clubs where people have forgotten how big they are. United have always been famous even in times without success. No question we've underperformed post-Fergie though. Given that we've been in at least the top 5 clubs on both transfers and wages pretty consistently, we should have been in the top 5 in terms of success too, more or less.
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People have forgotton how big we are/were. Self proclaimed biggest club in the world, to celebrating qualifying for the cl and not competing for the biggest prizes
 
rimaldo said:
when i was 6 i was constantly badgering my parents for a pet. a dog, a cat, a rabbit, a gerbil, a hamster. anything. every weekend i’d ask if we could go to the pet shop and look at the animals. i asked if i could get one for my birthday. for christmas. if i could get one if i was a good boy.

they finally relented and i came home from school one day to find a fish tank in my bedroom, complete with a small goldfish. goldie quickly became my best friend. he was the first thing i spoke to in the morning and the last thing i spoke to at night. we had such adventures together and our bond only grew stronger as time went on.

one day i came home from school and goldie was at the top of his tank, on his side. he normally zoomed around the moment he saw me. i tried to get his attention with some fish flakes, which smell better than they taste. he didn’t flinch. i went to get my mummy and tell her goldie was being silly and laying on his side. she came in and said he was just sleeping. i closed the curtains and the door and left him to it. when i came back a few hours later the fish tank was gone. mummy said he was so tired because his time with us was up and he had to go back and live with his goldfish family. i was incredibly upset but the thought of goldie playing with his little brothers and sisters, and being such a good boy for his mummy and daddy, made the loss of him a bit more bearable.

years later, i finally understand. i don’t think we’re sleeping, i think we’re goldie.
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Yeah, this. I think it's best if we make peace with the fact that our ownership doesn't share the ambitions of the SAF years anymore - as an institution, at the highest level, we want the title far less than other sides do. Consistently penny pinching after CL qualification instead of doubling down towards doing better is the clearest evidence to support this.

I do think we're Goldie. I think it's quite likely that besides Arsenal, Chelsea and Liverpool and City are more likely to win another title than we do.
 
We were, but I think we are now settling for our upper midtable status
 
What makes a giant sleepy?

Staying up all night worrying because you're £1.3 billion in debt.
 
No.

Over the last decade we've still been one of the most commercially successful clubs in the world, still been one of the biggest spending, remained one of the most famous, and have still won five or so European/Domestic cups.

That's not a sleeping giant, it's just a team underperforming relative to very high wealth/expectations.
 
Since we last won the league City, Chelsea and Liverpool have won the league twice. Arsenal have just won the league. Even Spurs were in a title race and Champions League final as well. We’ve been no where near either even when finishing 2nd. The best trophy we have won during this period is the Europa League. Not sure why we are put in the elite group any more because the club simply isn’t part of the group.
 
Josep Dowling said:
Since we last won the league City, Chelsea and Liverpool have won the league twice. Arsenal have just won the league. Even Spurs were in a title race and Champions League final as well. We’ve been no where near either even when finishing 2nd. The best trophy we have won during this period is the Europa League. Not sure why we are put in the elite group any more because the club simply isn’t part of the group.
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Football 'eritage. :rolleyes:
 
Do the debt numbers matter that much (i.e., is it really unsustainable / unservicable?)

We still have the revenues (TV, tickets, merchandise), fan base, wage budget and transfer budget of a top club. We spent close to 200m last season and were ready to pounce for Semenyo in Jan. Overall there's maybe 10 other clubs in the world that can afford to spend what we can and I'm sure there's money available if we want to spend. Not spending it in a disciplined way is what cost us over the past 10 years. I don't mind a bit of discipline now.

The stadium can be funded through outside investment (read: Barca style levers) by selling off parts of future stadium revenue or by issuing stock + diluting existing investors to raise capital. The squad needs can be funded through organic club revenues without a sugar daddy.

Don't be so doom and gloom because you wanted 200m of spending and it hasn't materialized yet. Santos and Tielemans are excellent players. We will be in for Tchouameni when the dominos fall and Rodri goes to RM. We'll sign a LB before the end of the window and a CF once we sell Zirkzee.

I'm pretty positive about everything at the club so far.
 
sullydnl said:
No.

Over the last decade we've still been one of the most commercially successful clubs in the world, still been one of the biggest spending, remained one of the most famous, and have still won five or so European/Domestic cups.

That's not a sleeping giant, it's just a team underperforming relative to very high wealth/expectations.
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We're 8th in terms of revenue, just ahead of spurs and haven't challenged for the title in 13 years, we are not one of the big boys anymore. You're kidding yourself to believe otherwise
 
ron86 said:
We're 8th in terms of revenue, just ahead of spurs and haven't challenged for the title in 13 years, we are not one of the big boys anymore. You're kidding yourself to believe otherwise
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That will obviously change now that the club has CL qualification and the tv money that comes with it. I believe money from sponsors has increased due to qualifying as well.
 
Josep Dowling said:
Since we last won the league City, Chelsea and Liverpool have won the league twice. Arsenal have just won the league. Even Spurs were in a title race and Champions League final as well. We’ve been no where near either even when finishing 2nd. The best trophy we have won during this period is the Europa League. Not sure why we are put in the elite group any more because the club simply isn’t part of the group.
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At least we are far closer in quality right now to Arsenal and City than we were to Peps city and Klopps Liverpool during that period when they were getting 99 and 100 points
 
The holy trinity 68 said:
That will obviously change now that the club has CL qualification and the tv money that comes with it. I believe money from sponsors has increased due to qualifying as well.
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Am I mad for feeling optimistic? I feel we will cement ourselves as a solid top 4 or 5 side over the coming years and even mount a title challenge this season with a bit of luck
 
Hancko implied it after the atletico game,
He said it was first time to play us and he still remembered when we at the top.

The term is relative to age. To my son we definately are, to amad we are.
If you grew up in a time when we werent competing but knew about some recent history you would see us as a sleeping giant.
 
rimaldo said:
the basic gist of it was how he feels himself and gavinb33 may have gotten off on the wrong foot. how he looks forward to reading gavin’s posts and how they’ve often given him food for thought and challenged some of his preconceptions.
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I have that poster on ignore, but I'll take a stab and guess it was about his goldfish
 
The holy trinity 68 said:
That will obviously change now that the club has CL qualification and the tv money that comes with it. I believe money from sponsors has increased due to qualifying as well.
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Yeah, we slumped 4 places. So we're probably about 4-5th with bigger deals kicking back in.
 
Without a doubt.

The fact that we’ve gone 13 years without winning the league is awful. We haven’t even won the Champions League since I became a fan (I became a fan in 2010, aged 11). We need to win the league again and get back to being one of the big dogs before the end of the decade. We can’t afford to have another spell in which we go 26 years without winning the league. And I mean literally. The Glazer thundercunts have saddled this club with so much debt. We might even be at risk of entering into administration.

The worst thing is that this was all avoidable. If we hadn’t been bought by people who couldn’t give two hoots about football and who hadn’t saddled us with debt, we’d have remained one of the best clubs in England. We are the Sears of association football.
 
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