Are we a bad 'cup team'?

Bubz27

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And if we are, why?

I've always looked at Liverpool as a great cup team growing up. Bare in mind, before tonight they'd only won 1 trophy in 12 years. But they were still getting to finals and semi finals consistently. I'm not talking about tonight, as they've been one of the best teams in Europe all season. But 05 and 07, they were way off. Not even close. But still got to 2 finals in 3 years, winning one.

Have we ever had it in us to make a good run in Europe when we haven't been one of the best teams anyway? I'm not wording it properly. Historically, we've never made an underdog run in Europe like Liverpool did in 05 and 07 and Chelsea in 12.

So why are Liverpool are a good cup team? And why aren't we? What makes a good cup team?
 

Skills

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2011 was an underdog run. Lucky draw though & we deservedly got obliterated in the final.

And we've reached 4 cup finals in the last 4 seasons. 2 x FA Cup, 1 League Cup & 1 Europa League.
 

Bubz27

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2011 was an underdog run. Lucky draw though & we deservedly got obliterated in the final.

And we've reached 4 cup finals in the last 4 seasons. 2 x FA Cup, 1 League Cup & 1 Europa League.
2011 we were still the best team in England which usually means you're one of the better teams in England.

Yeah we've done well recently. This feeling has stemmed from growing up. I'm 28, so generally we've always been one of the best teams around. But no one would argue if I said we've generally flattered to deceive in Europe.

Liverpool have been close to being the best in England in about 3 or 4 seasons in the premiership. We've been the best 13 times. We've both win the same number of CL in that time. That's a big disparity isn't it?
 

Skills

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2011 we were still the best team in England which usually means you're one of the better teams in England.

Yeah we've done well recently. This feeling has stemmed from growing up. I'm 28, so generally we've always been one of the best teams around. But no one would argue if I said we've generally flattered to deceive in Europe.

Liverpool have been close to being the best in England in about 3 or 4 seasons in the premiership. We've been the best 13 times. We've both win the same number of CL in that time. That's a big disparity isn't it?
We've just underperformed in the CL. I don't think Fergie figured out Europe till 2008. After that he was unlucky that he first came across Barcelona & then rather than responding to that challenge our club decided to stagnate and regress by not investing.

Summer of 2009 the club should've been going mental after the CL final. Doing what Madrid were doing, but we decided to aid Madrid's ambitions instead of furthering our own.
 

Bubz27

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We've just underperformed in the CL. I don't think Fergie figured out Europe till 2008. After that he was unlucky that he first came across Barcelona & then rather than responding to that challenge our club decided to stagnate and regress by not investing.

Summer of 2009 the club should've been going mental after the CL final. Doing what Madrid were doing, but we decided to aid Madrid's ambitions instead of furthering our own.
Yeah, maybe that's right. Then I'd ask why?
 

Infordin

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In Europe, you could make that argument, yes.

IMO Fergie underachieved by only winning two CL trophies. He should have won four or five.
 

rotherham_red

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2011 we were still the best team in England which usually means you're one of the better teams in England.

Yeah we've done well recently. This feeling has stemmed from growing up. I'm 28, so generally we've always been one of the best teams around. But no one would argue if I said we've generally flattered to deceive in Europe.

Liverpool have been close to being the best in England in about 3 or 4 seasons in the premiership. We've been the best 13 times. We've both win the same number of CL in that time. That's a big disparity isn't it?
We were up against arguably the greatest club side of all time during that period. Liverpool, on the other hand, were up against Milan's dad's army.

If it was literally anyone else that we met in those 2009 and 2011 finals, we'd be on 5 CLs, no doubt about it at all IMO.
 

Bojan11

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In Europe, you could make that argument, yes.

IMO Fergie underachieved by only winning two CL trophies. He should have won four or five.
How?

I hate when people say shit like this. How many times did we have the best team in Europe? We didn’t even have the best team in 99. Those Juve and Inter squads were better. 2008 is the only year and even then you could argue that Barca team under the right manager is better.

When Fergie arrived we were hampered by the EU rule and he had to drop players as a result of that. Not only that but English clubs as a whole were struggling after the ban by UEFA for five years. Football in Europe by then had changed and evolved. A lot of our teams were still stuck with the 4-4-2 mentality and Fergie took years to adapt to a more European style.

In the 90s all the money was in the Italian league just like it is now in the premier league.
 

berbatrick

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We were up against arguably the greatest club side of all time during that period. Liverpool, on the other hand, were up against Milan's dad's army.

If it was literally anyone else that we met in those 2009 and 2011 finals, we'd be on 5 CLs, no doubt about it at all IMO.
A few of the Milan players may have been old in 2005, but it wasn't some washed-up outfit.
Crespo, Shevchenko, Kaka, Pirlo, Seedorf, Gattuso, Nesta, Stam, Cafu, Maldini. A world-class player in every position, even if Stam and Cafu were ageing, there were tons of players near their prime.
2007 was different, with Kaka being vritually the only young face left, and ironically it's the one Milan got.
 

Bubz27

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We were up against arguably the greatest club side of all time during that period. Liverpool, on the other hand, were up against Milan's dad's army.

If it was literally anyone else that we met in those 2009 and 2011 finals, we'd be on 5 CLs, no doubt about it at all IMO.
But isn't that what I'm really talking about? We can't win unless we're clear favourites?
 

Infordin

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How?

I hate when people say shit like this. How many times did we have the best team in Europe? We didn’t even have the best team in 99. Those Juve and Inter squads were better. 2008 is the only year and even then you could argue that Barca team under the right manager is better.

When Fergie arrived we were hampered by the EU rule and he had to drop players as a result of that. Not only that but English clubs as a whole were struggling after the ban by UEFA for five years. Football in Europe by then had changed and evolved. A lot of our teams were still stuck with the 4-4-2 mentality and Fergie took years to adapt to a more European style.

In the 90s all the money was in the Italian league just like it is now in the premier league.
Manchester United should have won multiple CL trophies from 1997 to 2003, in my opinion. You had the best midfield in the world at the time.

You were the best team in the world in 2007 too.
 

devilish

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The problem with United was always that we always aimed for the EPL never to the CL. The latter was always a bonus. That's why rather then replace the tiny weaknesses cropping out after the treble season run so we could retain our European crown we went for Lidl like signings.
 

Raees

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We've never put in dominant performances in finals or come up with performances where we have blown away big opposition like I've seen Liverpool do at Anfield. They play a more 'dominant' style of football in Europe across their history, despite United having more talented players through their history.
 

Peyroteo

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Interestingly this happens in a lot of countries. Barcelona and Madrid have a similar dynamic, same for Juve and Milan or Porto and Benfica.

Some clubs just have it in them to pull off great things in Europe even when they don’t have the best squad or play dominant football.
 

francobaresi

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We're not a bad cup team. We're just a bad team
 

stevoc

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And Solskjær has won it!
2011 we were still the best team in England which usually means you're one of the better teams in England.

Yeah we've done well recently. This feeling has stemmed from growing up. I'm 28, so generally we've always been one of the best teams around. But no one would argue if I said we've generally flattered to deceive in Europe.

Liverpool have been close to being the best in England in about 3 or 4 seasons in the premiership. We've been the best 13 times. We've both win the same number of CL in that time. That's a big disparity isn't it?
It definitely does mate ;)
 

Danish Wizard

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We should have done better in the CL under Fergie.
In 1996/97 we should have knocked out Dortmund in the semis and perhaps won the final.
In 01/02 we threw it away in the semis vs Leverkusen, also a good opportunity to win it.
 

Oldyella

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Under Fergie his early years were affected by the rules on selecting players. We were a strong side then but I'm not sure it would have made that much a difference given some other sides of the time and when we had possibly our strongest side ever apart from 99 when we won it, we came up against possibly the best club team ever. So you could point to unlucky timing being a factor.

I also thing part of Fergies success came from good strong squad and man management and getting the best out of sub par players at times, which is fine for league trophies but doesn't help when playing the best club sides in Europe.
 

Judge Red

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Yes, I still believe the 94 side was as good as any of Fergie’s but it never got the chance to play in Europe properly. That and the five year ban left all English teams well off the pace for a number of years.
 

Ian Reus

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Yes, I still believe the 94 side was as good as any of Fergie’s but it never got the chance to play in Europe properly. That and the five year ban left all English teams well off the pace for a number of years.
The foreigner maximum rule would have fecked us anyway.
Even Giggs and Keane were counted as foreigners then.
 

VP

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Some teams are definitely charmed in the CL (Real Madrid, AC Milan and Liverpool) and some are cursed (Juventus most notably and us to an extent)
 

wolvored

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The 58 Munich crash probably robbed us of getting our hands on it before 68. The fact we could only play 3 foreigners early 90s maybe as well. You need a terrific side, good play and a lot of luck to win any trophy. We definitely havent won it enough for how many chances we have had, thats for sure.
 

amolbhatia50k

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The problem with United was always that we always aimed for the EPL never to the CL. The latter was always a bonus. That's why rather then replace the tiny weaknesses cropping out after the treble season run so we could retain our European crown we went for Lidl like signings.
Bang on. We've done well in Europe winning 3 CLs but we're definitely a club for whom the doemstic competition has been the holy grail. That's not to say that we didn't care about the CL. You only have to read how SAF felt to know that wasn't the case. But one way or another, we built teams and managed the team perfectly for league football. I've never seen us ever have a cup team in fact which you see with other clubs, which says everything.

Ironically had we not had the misfortune to cross roads with possibly the best club side ever we'd have 5 European Cups and 3 in 4 years.
 

devilish

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Bang on. We've done well in Europe winning 3 CLs but we're definitely a club for whom the doemstic competition has been the holy grail. That's not to say that we didn't care about the CL. You only have to read how SAF felt to know that wasn't the case. But one way or another, we built teams and managed the team perfectly for league football. I've never seen us ever have a cup team in fact which you see with other clubs, which says everything.

Ironically had we not had the misfortune to cross roads with possibly the best club side ever we'd have 5 European Cups and 3 in 4 years.
SAF was nothing but an employee. If the board decide not to spend the money needed to seriously compete for the CL then there was little he could do. Edwards made it quite clear that what mattered for him and the board was the EPL not the CL
 

flappyjay

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I think right now we are a cup team. We have been bad in ucl post Fergie but we have won all the other cups though.
 

fastwalker

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And if we are, why?

I've always looked at Liverpool as a great cup team growing up. Bare in mind, before tonight they'd only won 1 trophy in 12 years. But they were still getting to finals and semi finals consistently. I'm not talking about tonight, as they've been one of the best teams in Europe all season. But 05 and 07, they were way off. Not even close. But still got to 2 finals in 3 years, winning one.

Have we ever had it in us to make a good run in Europe when we haven't been one of the best teams anyway? I'm not wording it properly. Historically, we've never made an underdog run in Europe like Liverpool did in 05 and 07 and Chelsea in 12.

So why are Liverpool are a good cup team? And why aren't we? What makes a good cup team?

What makes a good cup team? Reaching cup finals or winning them? If it is the former, then over the past five years United (FA Cup three times and Europa League once) have been just as successful as Liverpool (Carabao Cup once, Europa League once, Champions League twice). However, if it is the latter, then United have performed better than Liverpool because we have won three out of four finals we have reached (two FA Cups and one Europa League), whilst Liverpool have only won one.

So I am not entirely sure what point you are making?

If you are talking solely about the Champions League in the last couple of years, then fair point; United have under-performed.
 

Bubz27

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What makes a good cup team? Reaching cup finals or winning them? If it is the former, then over the past five years United (FA Cup three times and Europa League once) have been just as successful as Liverpool (Carabao Cup once, Europa League once, Champions League twice). However, if it is the latter, then United have performed better than Liverpool because we have won three out of four finals we have reached (two FA Cups and one Europa League), whilst Liverpool have only won one.

So I am not entirely sure what point you are making?

If you are talking solely about the Champions League in the last couple of years, then fair point; United have under-performed.
I'm not talking about the last 5 years. I did say as I've been growing up. Maybe you assumed I'm 7 years old?

Would you say United have been / are a good cup team? Over the last 5 years? 10 years? 20 years?
 

fastwalker

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I'm not talking about the last 5 years. I did say as I've been growing up. Maybe you assumed I'm 7 years old?

Would you say United have been / are a good cup team? Over the last 5 years? 10 years? 20 years?
I still don't get it? Even using your longer term, 20 year, measure United have won 10 cup finals and Liverpool have won eight (excluding UEFA Super Cup and Community Shield wins). United are obviously a better cup team than Liverpool.
 

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The 58 Munich crash probably robbed us of getting our hands on it before 68. The fact we could only play 3 foreigners early 90s maybe as well. You need a terrific side, good play and a lot of luck to win any trophy. We definitely havent won it enough for how many chances we have had, thats for sure.
We should have retained it in 1969 but for awful refereeing in Milan and at home in the 2nd leg. My dad used to say that Munich not only robbed us of the European Cup, but maybe the 1962 World Cup as well. However, there was Pele to consider.
 

Moriarty

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I'm not talking about the last 5 years. I did say as I've been growing up. Maybe you assumed I'm 7 years old?

Would you say United have been / are a good cup team? Over the last 5 years? 10 years? 20 years?
We were a decent cup side in the late 70s and 80s; well, FA Cup at least.
 

Bubz27

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I still don't get it? Even using your longer term, 20 year, measure United have won 10 cup finals and Liverpool have won eight (excluding UEFA Super Cup and Community Shield wins). United are obviously a better cup team than Liverpool.
As I've said in this thread though, we've been one of the best teams in England consistently over the last 20-30 years. You would expect us to win cups. Liverpool have only been close to being one of the best on about 4 occasions, yet still regularly put together cup runs. And yes, especially in Europe, where we have flattered to deceive in my opinion.
 

0le

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I don't think we are a bad cup team. All our trophies we've won or come close to winning since Fergie have been cup trophies. League Cup, FA Cup and EL cup and also a FA Cup final. Nothing to look down upon. We only had one season where we finished second and that was a fluke.
 

Bubz27

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We were a decent cup side in the late 70s and 80s; well, FA Cup at least.
Fair. What made us a good cup team then?
Funny that during our lean run in the league, we kept it going with cups. Similar to what Liverpool have done over the last 30 years.