He won't do anything tactically or with the midfield. He will try to buy better players and we will probably be a little, little bit better than last season and people will still talk about progress.
Are we a CDM short of being an elite team?
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
He won't do much other than rotate Fred and mctominay.
Better is progress
This.
On the contrary, I think Sancho would totally change that. He would effectively do what Pogba did when he played LW, but better because he's a natural there. With Pogba at LW it's still a bit of square peg round hole.
Rashford + Greenwood isn't a great preview of what we can do if we played Pogba at CM. They're both primarily goal scorers and can sometimes create chances for their teammates rather than the other way around, so the attack was always a little bit unbalanced. If Bruno played well the team played well. Otherwise we were shit.
I don't think matching France's system is necessary to get the best out of Pogba. Deschamps is a pretty boring / conservative coach, there will be open rebellion if we drop one of Rashford / Bruno / Cavani / Sancho just to add a Matuidi type player. e.g.,
----- Mbappe (Rashford) ----- Benz (Cavani) ---------
------------------- Griezmann (Bruno) -------------------------
------ Rabiot (McT?) ------ Kante (Fred) ------ Pogba
There isn't even space for Sancho let alone Greenwood in that system.
I agree that we lose Pogba's running if he played in the 4-2-3-1 but ultimately it's tradeoffs. We won't use him to his full potential but the team will still do well.
Nothing different than last season, play Mctominay and Fred, same limitations and same problems. It’s inevitable we’ll have to upgrade both but probably take a couple of years.
Mctominay will continue to improve but people will still moan about lack of progress or coaching or something something patterns
Fair point, if it’s a bit of something or nothing at all then we should take what we can.
We are not going to win the premier league or CL with Mctominay as a starter, so yes, people will continue to moan until he is replaced by a better player.
Thats the issue though. People talk about our young players as though they can not and will not improve. Every single part of his game is better than it was 18 months ago.
I thought we were looking at recruiting Sven Botman from Lille?
Progress is progress until it isn’t.
In the absence of a guaranteed upgrade on Ole waiting in the wings I’ll take progress. Inch by painstaking inch away from the abyss from which we came (under so called elite managers.)
I can't see him changing from the chosen setup in any significant way. There might be small alterations but essentially I think he is going to play with two players behind Fernandes.
I think once you state that Bruno is a key figure then some compensation is needed within the system because although he works hard he also likes to defend high up the pitch and attempts every Hollywood pass, creating a lot of turnovers. You're always going to need a couple of players behind that, whether it's dressed up as a 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1.
This leads me to think his main goal will be to simply upgrade the options we have for the roles which is a fairly obvious approach to a problem area. We have tried tactical solutions involving various players plus Pogba that haven't really convinced.
I think once you state that Bruno is a key figure then some compensation is needed within the system because although he works hard he also likes to defend high up the pitch and attempts every Hollywood pass, creating a lot of turnovers. You're always going to need a couple of players behind that, whether it's dressed up as a 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1.
This leads me to think his main goal will be to simply upgrade the options we have for the roles which is a fairly obvious approach to a problem area. We have tried tactical solutions involving various players plus Pogba that haven't really convinced.
Well that would be progress wouldn't it so people would be entitled to talk about it as such?
It's a bit of a stretch to describe him as a young player at 24 years old. He's never going to be an elite midfielder, either defensively, creatively or as a controller. He might improve a little bit more but not to that degree.
Bring in James Garner for rotation, but shed Matic and bring in a proper DM to shield the defence. We have a midfield and defence which works atm but not quite there judging by the frequency of goals we conceded.
I don't think we will sign a midfielder, especially if we target Sancho and a CB. I'd be happy to see Garner come back and get real minutes and Hannibal start to play a role. Phasing put McFred would be ideal if we had a rejuvenated DVB. Our midfield is not up to scratch, too many average joes and Pogba is never played in his rightful position. Perhaps the signing of a proper CB is the first sign of a shift away from the double pivot.
Views polarized on here but for me Fred has to go. It’s not that his work is great but sporadic good games mingled with regular appalling passing, dismal shooting and ball watching. Surely we can promote from Academy?
Pogba just seems to step up with France (Perhaps we can play in blue). Can he hit consistent form.
McT also not showing much improvement.
Bruno. Class be we are no ver reliant on him.
Summary. Fred out and bring in some academy talent.
Pogba just seems to step up with France (Perhaps we can play in blue). Can he hit consistent form.
McT also not showing much improvement.
Bruno. Class be we are no ver reliant on him.
Summary. Fred out and bring in some academy talent.
I think one of the key issues highlighted in the original post is Pogba. The perennial problem.
There seem to be roughly a couple of different viewpoints. One being that either the manager or the players (and by extension - the manager) around him do not get the best out of him. This is propped up by the France and sometimes Juventus argument.
Then there is the view that we have tried multiple shapes, different personnel, different responsibilities for the player and the only thing that has remained consistent is inconsistency. When does that become less about factors external to him and more about his traits?
If he's to stay this is something that is likely to remain a theme. Can it be solved in one summer? It seems unlikely. My personal view is I do not buy the excuse making for the player or the evidence put forward that is supposed to suggest he can be consistent.
We are not going to line up with both Rabiot and Kante style players alongside him when we have Bruno, it is simply not happening. We couldn't even buy a Juventus quality midfield of the time if we wanted to. So actually those arguments are fairly redundant in that they are either so specific to the national team or just unfeasible. The reality is we have to buy within our means and according to what's available this summer. The weight of evidence suggests trying to fit Pogba into a responsible midfield role is odds against.
However, where it does become the manager's problem and mess up is when he persists with the idea or buys towards it and then it falls flat on its face.
There seem to be roughly a couple of different viewpoints. One being that either the manager or the players (and by extension - the manager) around him do not get the best out of him. This is propped up by the France and sometimes Juventus argument.
Then there is the view that we have tried multiple shapes, different personnel, different responsibilities for the player and the only thing that has remained consistent is inconsistency. When does that become less about factors external to him and more about his traits?
If he's to stay this is something that is likely to remain a theme. Can it be solved in one summer? It seems unlikely. My personal view is I do not buy the excuse making for the player or the evidence put forward that is supposed to suggest he can be consistent.
We are not going to line up with both Rabiot and Kante style players alongside him when we have Bruno, it is simply not happening. We couldn't even buy a Juventus quality midfield of the time if we wanted to. So actually those arguments are fairly redundant in that they are either so specific to the national team or just unfeasible. The reality is we have to buy within our means and according to what's available this summer. The weight of evidence suggests trying to fit Pogba into a responsible midfield role is odds against.
However, where it does become the manager's problem and mess up is when he persists with the idea or buys towards it and then it falls flat on its face.
We desperately need to sign another defender or two. Sven Botman was on the radar for a while, anyone heard any updates with regard to this rumour?
Inter Milan are currently having a fire sale, why don’t we inquire about Marcelo Brozović availability. He’s a quality DMF and would certainly be a vast improvement on the Fred McT partnership.
I don't think it is, or at least not in the areas he needs to improve to be a Champions League-level player.
He's gotten better at shooting and timing his runs into the box, sure, but that's not really what you put McTominay in the team for. I don't think he's added much in terms of positional sense or contributing in the build-up.
If anything Fred is the one who's gotten better (while remaining woeful in the final third, ironically enough). As underwhelming as he is for a 50-million-pound signing, he does at least offer a few key attributes - pressing high and winning the ball, and probably better passing than his creative stats reflect - that you think he'd look better next to a different partner.
This always been the case with Pogba. Wherever he plays, he should be playing somewhere else to get the best out of him. Whoever he plays with, he needs someone else to allow him to express himself. Rinse and repeat. It’s all well and good turning it on for tournament football or the odd international game, it’s a different story doing it week in and week out in a gruelling league campaign.
The idea that we build the team around such an inconsistent player is just
It's a lot less complicated than you make it seem.This always been the case with Pogba. Wherever he plays, he should be playing somewhere else to get the best out of him. Whoever he plays with, he needs someone else to allow him to express himself. Rinse and repeat. It’s all well and good turning it on for tournament football or the odd international game, it’s a different story doing it week in and week out in a gruelling league campaign.
The idea that we build the team around such an inconsistent player is just
The reality is that he's played at most 3 positions in his time at Utd. Left wing briefly, most attacking of 3 midfielders, and a double pivot. He's generally torn it up in every other position besides the double pivot (where he's been good but inconsistent), and yet somehow he consistently keeps finding himself there, courtesy of his managers. And since the double pivot is his least consistent position and he plays there most often (for some reason), he's generally had an inconsistent time with us.
Now when you take into account the two managers he's had at Utd (washed up Mourinho and unproven Ole) as well as the fact that he has played important roles in Juve winning their league and reaching consecutive CL finals, as well as France reaching a Euros final and winning the World Cup, it's safe to say that he's not so inconsistent that we cannot achieve anything unless he's sold.
The idea that he's the one holding us back with his inconsistency, despite being basically the most proven personnel out of all the playing and coaching staff at the club right now, just doesn't add up.
With all that said, the current makeup of our midfield as well as his contract situation means that the logical decision would be to try and recoup some money for him, and hopefully get an adequate replacement that is more in line with our current midfield makeup. But if he does go somewhere else and succeed (which is quite likely), it will be very difficult to blame it all on the player as we have been doing prior.
Get a quality centre back in, and an actual right winger, ie Sancho, and we're immeasurably better straight away, and that will mean the midfield isn't as big a problem.
If we go with the same midfield next season we won't be challenging for top 3. We need a Calvin Philips type player. He would transform us no end. Kante we would be challenging for the title
We defo need a quality DM, we may also need another CM if we sell VDB, I’d really like us to sign locatelli but after the euros he’s gonna be worth twice as much. If we stick with a 4-2-3-1 then we need someone who can cover a lot of ground as pogba will have freedom to go forward.
Everything goes through midfield though, without midfielders that can set the tempo and set our attacks of we won’t be any better IMO we could do with a proper DM and a technical creative midfielder
This poster types sense. Promote him asap.
He’s been played and tested all over the shop since he arrived here, including with a decent Matic behind him. He’s even had relatively prolonged (for him) periods of form in these positions. But he always reverts to type, and we hear the same old excuses that he really needs XYZ to be successful. The club paid £80m for him, they want to get the best out of him.
I’m not saying he isn’t a good player, he obviously is. He has all the talent and potential in the world. But his 5 year spell here has been disappointing and it’s laughable to suggest that it’s everyone’s fault but his for that.
It would be great to be proven wrong, but I’ve a pretty strong suspicion that we’d implement whatever system to cater to him, and be back in the same situation in 12 months time.
You needn't worry about that. He's already proven in other systems, so the suspicion that he'd hold us back under a more suitable framework is unwarranted.
I'm big on the idea of getting the best out of players (SAF was our manager for so long after all), so I strongly disagree that Paul Pogba is just a hopeless case. The unfortunate thing with Pogba has been (i) our managerial choices, and (ii) our speed in moving on from managers of a questionable level.
Kante is a good example. He's being raved about now, but when he was with Sarri and Lampard who didn't know how to use him to his maximum ability, he was seen as a good but limited, even declining, player. It's no coincidence that his stock is much higher under his 2 best managers. Now if you look at Kante's career, he's been at Chelsea for the same amount of time as Pogba at Utd. However, he's played under twice as many managers, and luckily for him 2 of them happened to be world class managers who got the best out of him. No matter how much you like Ole or Mourinho, the same cannot be said for Pogba.
At this point though, I reckon it would be best to build in a different direction. Since Ole is staying, I don't think the midfield ideas will change in any significant way and in that case, a more creative but defensively solid upgrade on McTominay is the way to go.
I don't think he's "torn it up" in any of those positions. He had a couple of good outings on the left and then some poor ones, we were already beginning to see the flaws in having him on the left at the end of the season. Before we had Bruno and played him in more advanced central areas it was the same, he'd do good work in bits and pieces. However this is largely a moot point as he's only ever going to be a backup for that particular role these days.
I wouldn't say there's a great deal of evidence in a United shirt that there is a position we can move him into that ensures a degree of consistency, it seems to be game to game, period of matches to period of matches. There seem to be factors involved that are there regardless of position. This is why the managers are chopping and changing his role, they are trying to find some way to actually limit his fluctuations. I don't think they're doing it for fun - they are looking for a solution because despite your claim nothing has actually convinced.
If Locatelli is off to Juve, what about Bennacer? Could unleash Pogba and Bruno
Kante was already proven in the PL though, Pogba is far from that (on a consistent basis at least). He had a good spell in a much slower Serie A, where he enjoyed more time and space than he is in the PL, and he’s played well in an outrageously talented France team. Again though, international football is a different kettle of fish.
I don’t necessarily want him out, although I think there are more effective players out there for us to bring in. I certainly wouldn’t want to build the team around him though.
Depends on what you're expecting. Consistency often has a different metric for Pogba than for others. For instance, this season he was in my eyes one of our more consistent players, yet here we are talking about him being inconsistent.
If consistency to you means 90 mins of close to perfection every game, then you'll be disappointed wherever he plays. But on the whole, he's definitely been more consistent relatively speaking in more offensive roles, as he is more able to take risks and showcase the qualities that made us buy him for a large sum.
As to why he keeps ending up in a double pivot? My suspicion is that it's the combo of him being our best deep midfielder, and the 2 managers that he's played under being wed to the 4-2-3-1 formation. Keep in mind it's not only Pogba that's somewhat shoehorned in there; most of our midfielders seem like they'd excel more in roles outside the 2 DM's.
But it's the same Kante who was underrated under subpar managers.
That's why I gave you the Kante example, to show how the same player can have such different perception based on his usage and his team's success, which all stems from the manager he's playing under.
A new contract for Jones.
But that scenario doesn’t really work in the case of Pogba as he isn’t proven in the PL like Kante already was. With Kante, the problem was clearly the manager/setup as he had already excelled at Leicester and Chelsea. Pogba hasn’t done that.
Pogba has had two managers that have moved him around countless times to try to accommodate him, without success. But he has had good spells during his time here, albeit brief. What’s the rationale for that if he’s been a victim of having an inadequate environment?
It's a shambles, as it always is with United. Even under Fergie we simply ignored central midfield, favoring to spend up front and behind. McFred is a bottom half of the table pairing, and its kind of embarrassing how untechnical we are compared to other teams.
If we fail to sign anyone in that area, we have to give VDB a chance a bit further back.
In terms of depth, hopefully we blood Garner over giving Matic any more minutes. I realize at one point Matic was good, but that point is very far in the rear view mirror and he offers nothing these days.
If we fail to sign anyone in that area, we have to give VDB a chance a bit further back.
In terms of depth, hopefully we blood Garner over giving Matic any more minutes. I realize at one point Matic was good, but that point is very far in the rear view mirror and he offers nothing these days.
So many talented midfielders on display over these last few days of the Euros. Particularly in today's match between Belgium and Denmark... We absolutely need a proper deep-lying midfielder to play with Pogba and Bruno. Keep McT and vdB for midfield depth, promote Garner, and get Fred and Matic out of the squad for good.