Yeah bang on I don't want to hear any quotes from our yankee leech owners about not judging until he has all his team in place
Are we a CDM short of being an elite team?
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
I said this in the match day thread and was quickly made aware that we’ve been crying for a RW for a long time and now we’re moaning. Im more concerned with Greenwood’s development but has to be said so far we’ve been brilliant with the balance of game time and rest. But now with Ronaldo and Sancho coming in I hope we still keep his development on track!!!
Really think learning from TWO of the top european scorers around will do wonders for Mason
100% and like I said I think the way we are working with him it’s perfect as with Rashford we rushed him in I think because of injuries?
Yeah we shouldn't rush Marcus back from this injury either which we don't need to do with that forward line
He’s going to unleash Donny and there’ll be hell to pay….
Think that was a pig I just saw fly over but can't be sure
McTominay has had surgery. Fred will be getting called up to Brazil so there are quarantine issues there. Matic is ancient. We've seen Pogba disappoint in midfield often times than not. VDB continues to be overlooked.
I really wonder what's Ole's plan for midfield. Is he counting on Garner and Hannibal to step up sometime in the next couple of years? Surely getting Ronaldo means you'd want to challenge now, not 3-4 years while we wait for youth players to develop?
I really wonder what's Ole's plan for midfield. Is he counting on Garner and Hannibal to step up sometime in the next couple of years? Surely getting Ronaldo means you'd want to challenge now, not 3-4 years while we wait for youth players to develop?
hahaha
he’s going to play him in the next few games. He just has to. I know this club is totally mental and Ole says one thing and does another and we would probably gladly keep him now forever and never play him but keep renewing him but suuuuuurely there’s a run for him in the not so distant future? I mean they stopped him from leaving today because he’s supposedly going to play? I know we’ve heard it all before but there has to be some plan… any plan…
I don't think so. It doesn't look like Ole has any intention to play Donny. He will be used sparingly in the cups but will never be trusted in crucial games. His mismanagement is all on the manager. Other players keep serving turd performances but Donny never gets his chance.
Yeah could end up being another Romero, Rojo, Lingard etc no plan just another body. It’s frustrating when we need a baller and Donny could do it if he’s given a shot but I think we can all agree he’s never going to be given a long run in the team
That's an odd assertion which is based on little to nothing IMO. To be a little cynical I think its more to do with what your overall options on Ole are that tend to colour what you believe Ole's intentions with Donny are as all the noises coming out of Ole and the club is that Donny's doing well and that he's in his plans. Apparently that's what his agent has also been told.
Whats also obvious is that his settling into the team is taking longer than usual (this is still just the start of his second season, mind). We don't know why that is, and all the assertions made about it seem to come from people's overall views about Ole. I also think he's had some injuries in crucial times last season where he would definitely have played, but he got injured at the same time Pogba did I think.
Sit there gormlessly like he often does.
In all seriousness though, we don’t have a huge “problem in midfield.“ it’s massively overstated as some sort of preemptive excuse for the manager. We have good players there, although anybody except perhaps ole could explain why a midfield 3 including Bruno and pogba won’t be particularly effective. (With Bruno sitting at #9 half the damned time)
In all seriousness though, we don’t have a huge “problem in midfield.“ it’s massively overstated as some sort of preemptive excuse for the manager. We have good players there, although anybody except perhaps ole could explain why a midfield 3 including Bruno and pogba won’t be particularly effective. (With Bruno sitting at #9 half the damned time)
This is an interesting point to me. Do you honestly think Ole doesn't know or cannot explain things like these tactical and technical details? Or is that he doesn't like talking about his players in that way in the media? I've always thought he likes talking in very abstract terms in the media so as to not generate stories about "he's not doing his job" or "the teams not doing what I'm telling them to do". Because all the media fawning over your style of play turns to derision the moment things start to go wrong. I bet Sarri hates the term Sarriball now.
I’m sure he knows what he wants in his head at the least. Nobody can claim he's completely clueless. He may not be a top top manager, but he’s also not a circus clown. But this is an interesting sub point. He seems very good at managing his players, but not very good at telling those players what he wants. Perhaps his internal communication is also quite abstract. Take the last game for example, he had Fred and pogba in essentially a 4-2-4 (with arguably Bruno dropping back to make it a 4-3-3.) I’m sure he knew how he wanted that to go, but we got overrun especially in the first half. In the 2nd it was a little better so perhaps he refined his explanations, but we can probably all agree it didn’t work as planned. Curiously this happens a lot in our 1st half of games, so perhaps Ole (or whoever he has delegated tactics prep too) IS being too abstract or can’t explain or whatever. It also does often improve at half time, but very rarely mid half (you don’t see him off his bench issuing rapid in game changes much). Perhaps he can’t communicate quick changes.
I think the way we setup against wolves was pretty incomprehensible, to me at least. Starting Pogba deep after his first few games, the front 4 so isolated at times, it was pretty weird. I don’t think he should be sacked now or anything, but I have obvious concerns about scapegoating our midfield when he chooses to play Bruno and Fred together Without an obvious plan on how to make it work.
Regarding the bolded bit I thought him saying in the post match interview that our problem was that everyone was running forwards too quickly was aimed exactly at that. I also remember him telling Sancho and Bruno in the first half in a break to stay compact during build up. That was an example of him giving tactical instructions and our play did improve after that point and we even got a foothold towards the end of the first half. At the end of that day to me, Fred had a shocker. We had many a good moves completely ruined because he gave the ball away straight to an opponent. Maybe its on the manager to take him off, but overall I think Ole's interference in game and at half time helped us recover and play better. And in the second half bar the De Gea save from the corner I think we were well on top and I fully saw the winner coming. Even if the goal had been chalked off I think we could have found another goal.
In my view one of the positives of United and Ole's lack of a well defined playing structure is that it makes us even more potent because we can score anytime from anywhere even if we have no semblance of control in the game. Whereas I often find with other coaches (like Arteta or even LvG) that if they're not playing well they're just not scoring. They need everything from the buildup to attacking phase to be executed well to create chances, whereas we just focus on getting the best route to goal every time and sometimes we end up having very messy games where we have no control but we still can score anytime. Its definitely not the popular approach to high level coaching in 2021 but it has its charm. And I think when things click it can be amazing. I fear its not consistent enough to win the league though.
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Who is the best defensive midfielder in our academy? Why not pull someone up while Mctominay is out. We must have a gem in there somewhere surely?
This is partly on the media - they don't ask managers any pointed tactical questions at all. Just the same old tried and tested Q&A that has barely changed in 50 years repeated ad nauseam. I'd be very interested in a crowdsourced fan Q&A with upvotes / downvotes etc. (similar to a reddit AMA where the best questions bubble up to the top). Even if it's not a premier league sanctioned thing, it could be run by the United social media team 3-4 times a season.
Pulling this off properly on the internet is very hard because it's so susceptible to spam / trolling. I think you can still pull it off - maybe if it's a platform where only season ticket holders / MUTV subscribers can register. You could make it open and add moderation (so some moderation team or Ole himself decides what he wants to respond to amongst the top 10 questions or so). There are many ideas, but change in football (and sport really) is very slow, so I don't expect to see it in the next 10 years.
McTominay in a deep holding midfielder, with Pogba and Bruno playing box to box.
Sancho---CR7---Mason
---Pogba--------Bruno
--------McTominay
Sancho---CR7---Mason
---Pogba--------Bruno
--------McTominay
If he had to say it in the post match interview though; somehow he didn't properly communicate it to the players before the match started. Or he did, and they ignored him. I think tactically it was all wrong there, but on an individual game we can agree to disagree.
With regards to your 2nd paragraph, I think it's a case for fans of 'careful what you wish for. with Ole' You mention both LVG and Arteta - I think any [sane] person would objectively say that Ole has done far better than them, one was a disaster for us, the other the sort of crap that Ole thankfully turned out not to be. The problem is we're Man Utd, the bar is set to coaches like Klopp, Guardiola, Flick, and Tuchel. Fans want a coach like that, who can control the vast majority of games, almost always find their way to the goal and turn the team into a perpetual motion machine. Because lets be honest, with the current state of the PL, that's what it will take to win the league. This partly explains the disconnect between 'Ole In' and 'Ole Out' populations, both of which have their valid points of view. Outside of the coaches I mentioned there's also Zidane and Conte, both of whom are arguably a risk. This is why I'm (somewhat reluctantly) Ole in currently; let's see what he can do for this season is my view. I just hope that my biggest concerns don't come to pass again.
I mostly agree with you. My issue is I've seen the abyss United were staring down and I would have gladly taken where we are now. Yes this is not the end goal, but I think the club legend who got us this far deserves the chance to try to take the final step without his own supporters deriding him and placing arbitrary ceilings on him. And if he turns out to not be good enough then we'll part ways amicably calling it a job well done because he still brought us back to the big table and stopped the rot in the club.
I think we’re in a little bit of a conundrum with Ole. On the one hand, what he’s done for us has been fantastic so far. On the other hand, I think it’s pretty clear that he’s nowhere near the level of the Peps and Tuchels in terms of coaching and tactical ability. What do you do with manager like that? And he’s a club legend too. We can’t keep compensating for coaching deficiencies with better players since City and Chelsea have access to the same standard of player.
On the merit of what he has done so far, Ole definitely deserves the chance to show if he can take the final step. But I fear we don’t have much time to wait. Players like Ronaldo, Pogba, and perhaps even Varane aren’t going to stick around while we continue to fumble as nearly-men.
Edit: anyway, to keep things on track, I think we’ll just go with McFred for the foreseeable future, until we get someone else like Matic with younger legs. Not great but not as bad as many say. Hard to imagine VdB becoming a defensive player but you never know I guess.
Such a depressing thought. But I will try and offset it by the idea of Varane, Sancho and Ronaldo playing for us. Until the next game (s) that is to see if the team itself can offset the respective impacts.
Agree that much of it has to do with the manager and coaches. However if we had prioritised a DLP like Jorginho I'd like to think that it would have some impact on our buildup even though not as much as it could, if the tactics were different
I think someone in the mold of Jorginho would have been a good signing. Carrick from 2012-2013 would be great for this team.
However, I can't agree with this notion that keeps spreading on this forum lately - Apparently 1 signing in midfield completely solves all of our build-up issues and issues against the press that we saw in the past 2 games.
That's more down to the system/shape we've employed than the individuals at hand. We have enough to compete for trophies on all fronts. We've signed 2 world class primes and one of the best young players in the world. Hopefully Ole extracts as much as he can from this team.
Donny has to play now. We didn't allow him to go on loan, didn't try to sign Saul/ Neves on loan. I hope Ole knows what is he doing.
He will just sit in the dugout and pray for his star players to do their magic and save him as they always do, or pray to fluke a goal with the help of some dodgy referee decisions.
What else can he do as the manager of Manchester United?
What else can he do as the manager of Manchester United?
Absolutely. What I like about Chelsea which is much improved over when Lampard is just how everyone is in synch, they're organised and their positioning is just right to ensure fluidity and the player on the ball always having an option and more than often knowing where the next pass goes instantly. That's what we saw with Klopp to - to an even higher degree.
It's what we lack most. We don't have a machinery that just works. Our players seem to be trying to figure out solutions on the pitch rather than have a pre-drilled plan that lays down the general mechanics of how we play. Anyhoo I don't see it changing. We are three years in, just have to accept our chaotic ways and hope our individual class triumphs.
I doubt that, Fred was playing cameo roles from his first 2 seasons wasn't he? VDB will be ready in the near future.
It is just badly thought through. Garner would have been a great guy to drip-feed in but they loaned him to the same Championship club that he has already excelled at last year. There is no one in the reserves left who is a promising DM (Mejbri is an 8 or 10) now. Typical United - we didn't win CL till we bought Hargreaves and lost the next 2 finals when we failed to replace him.
The only thinking that makes sense might be that we can maybe get a world-class DM in January. If Frenkie de Jong gets sick of Barcelona, etc.
now
now
In terms of preference:
1. McFred (very limited but it works, as both players are limited but committed)
2. Mctominay + Pogba (I think it’s ok as Mctominay is defensively solid enough to marginally cover up Pogba, but Pogba is just not a reliable DM)
3. Either one of McFred + Matic (not sure about it, but not against it)
4. Matic + Pogba (should work only if Matic is younger, but he isn’t, may not cope with pace)
5. Fred + Pogba (disaster, try to avoid this, Fred is like a puppy dog chasing the ball, Pogba is like dribbling his way into trouble on his own half)
6. Either one of McFred + VDB (only in easy league cup games against lower division side, as VDB like to disappear or play as shadow striker, or just a shadow)
1. McFred (very limited but it works, as both players are limited but committed)
2. Mctominay + Pogba (I think it’s ok as Mctominay is defensively solid enough to marginally cover up Pogba, but Pogba is just not a reliable DM)
3. Either one of McFred + Matic (not sure about it, but not against it)
4. Matic + Pogba (should work only if Matic is younger, but he isn’t, may not cope with pace)
5. Fred + Pogba (disaster, try to avoid this, Fred is like a puppy dog chasing the ball, Pogba is like dribbling his way into trouble on his own half)
6. Either one of McFred + VDB (only in easy league cup games against lower division side, as VDB like to disappear or play as shadow striker, or just a shadow)
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City had 100 points and 100 goals with a midfield of Fernandinho-KDB-Silva, with Silva given license to drift into the box, and KDB pulling wide to cross. That is more lightweight than Fred/Scott-Pogba-Bruno. Their CB partnership was Otamendi with Stones or Kompany. We have Varane and Maguire.
The 4-3-3 is possible. It just needs to be insanely well prepared.
The 4-3-3 is possible. It just needs to be insanely well prepared.
You can't look at the midfield and CB in isolation. It worked for City because Walker is effectively playing as the 3rd CB and Zinchenko/Delph was tucked into the midfield as the 2nd CDM. They're playing with inverted FB.
I'm starting to think our latest transfer policy is to only sign Galactico types. I am kidding mostly but it's bizarre we wouldn't address the CDM side of the issue, continuingly playing Fred, especially without McTominay to cover for him, is going to cost us big time - we got out of jail in last few games, especially against Wolves but a decent side would have been out of sight long before Greenwood scored on Sunday.
As bad as Fred was, he at least worked his ass off through the game. Which was required because Pogba was nowhere to be found, especially in the first half. Both of them lost the balls a few times in stupid way. Pogba had a few good passes and that's it. Again, xG 0,6 and xGA 1,8 - there's nothing we should praise this midfield for. It was terrible.
The point is, McTominay-Fred is the ONLY funtional midfield we can build. It's the least of our problems. And they aren't even good enough.
I agree we should play 3 man midfield though, at least people now realize Pogba is not working in midfield two, and the argument "he can do it against majority of opponents" is dead.
But that's a moot point, as we never play 3 in the middle.
My worry about not signing a DM this window is that we will always keep coming up short.
Much like how we didn’t sign a RW last year, we will always find ourselves with one too many positions we need to strengthen.
Next season we will need a striker, a RB, a CDM and possibly even another CM if Pogba leaves.
Then our squad players like Matic and Mata could gone at that point, for better or worse, but it’s depth that still needs replacing.
We won’t sign all those, so we wait till the year after for some and so it goes and on and on.
Much like how we didn’t sign a RW last year, we will always find ourselves with one too many positions we need to strengthen.
Next season we will need a striker, a RB, a CDM and possibly even another CM if Pogba leaves.
Then our squad players like Matic and Mata could gone at that point, for better or worse, but it’s depth that still needs replacing.
We won’t sign all those, so we wait till the year after for some and so it goes and on and on.
The reason that worked for City was Fernandinho. They knew that a great CDM is the back bone. therefore they also found a replacement in due time with Rodri.
If we all think back to the discussions about the upcoming transfer window that took place this spring, pretty much everyone agreed there were 4-5 areas of need, and pretty much no one asked for or expected that more than 2 or 3 of them would be addressed. Which they have. Of course we need a CM, but you can't get everything at once.
Fred is a decent 8
Mctominay again is a decent 8
Matic is an old 6
Pogba is only a decent 8
Donny has disappeared but I reckon he could be better than the rest.
I think Donny and Scott would form the best partnership this season. Scotty to do most of the grunt work and Donny to spread the ball around
Mctominay again is a decent 8
Matic is an old 6
Pogba is only a decent 8
Donny has disappeared but I reckon he could be better than the rest.
I think Donny and Scott would form the best partnership this season. Scotty to do most of the grunt work and Donny to spread the ball around