Are we a CDM short of being an elite team?

Zlatans Knee

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I wonder if the answer is for us to switch to a 3-5-2
Someone (AWB/Bailly/Lindelof) + Maguire + Shaw
Sancho (if we get him), McT, Fred, Pogba, Rashford/Mason
Bruno, Cavani/Mason

If we want to get the best out of Pogba and Bruno we can’t be shifting Pogba out to the left. It asks a lot of the 2 wing backs though.
 

He'sRaldo

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But that scenario doesn’t really work in the case of Pogba as he isn’t proven in the PL like Kante already was. With Kante, the problem was clearly the manager/setup as he had already excelled at Leicester and Chelsea. Pogba hasn’t done that.

Pogba has had two managers that have moved him around countless times to try to accommodate him, without success. But he has had good spells during his time here, albeit brief. What’s the rationale for that if he’s been a victim of having an inadequate environment?
Of all the variables to consider, Pogba not being "proven" in the PL (where he's actually featured in the team of the season) is surely at the bottom of the list.

How about us undeniably having worse managers than Chelsea in that period? Or Pogba only playing under 2 managers in his time here, one of whom has been proven to be washed up, with the other being a total unknown quality (and not in a good way)? Even us having a less than efficient transfer strategy is another key variable.

With all the variables to think of, saying the guy who's been pivotal in winning a world cup, getting to consecutive CL finals, winning leagues etc. is an unknown quality due to not being proven in the PL just smacks of trying to avoid the issue. I doubt you would use that rational for other foreign transfer targets you want brought in.
 

Abraxas

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Depends on what you're expecting. Consistency often has a different metric for Pogba than for others. For instance, this season he was in my eyes one of our more consistent players, yet here we are talking about him being inconsistent.

If consistency to you means 90 mins of close to perfection every game, then you'll be disappointed wherever he plays. But on the whole, he's definitely been more consistent relatively speaking in more offensive roles, as he is more able to take risks and showcase the qualities that made us buy him for a large sum.

As to why he keeps ending up in a double pivot? My suspicion is that it's the combo of him being our best deep midfielder, and the 2 managers that he's played under being wed to the 4-2-3-1 formation. Keep in mind it's not only Pogba that's somewhat shoehorned in there; most of our midfielders seem like they'd excel more in roles outside the 2 DM's.
I would agree this season was one of his better ones and certainly perfection isn't expected.

However, within the context of next season the question of Pogba remains open for a few reasons. Quite clearly the first one would be that we don't know where his future will be.

Beyond that, there are quite natural questions to be asked if he does stay. There is a clamour for a new central midfielder and this player will hopefully be bought with some plan in mind and a staying Pogba would have to feature quite heavily in that thinking. Both in terms of where we expect to play him, and also the qualities of the player we buy. Can we keep shunting Pogba around depending on the opposition, or do we try to find a formula that works for the most part? These wouldn't be questions worth posing if Pogba had deployed his talent as often as we hoped when he was bought.

If it is not the current system, what sort of system do you think would get the best out of him, and alongside who (in realistic terms)?

I would say he's been played deep because the idea was that Pogba is our most talented player so we need to get him on the ball and helping our passing, which ties in with your idea that he's our best player there - he certainly is technically. He's also not unrounded. The other viable positions are ones he is capable of and can have some good games in, but within our structure and with our personnel don't actually make much sense at all except for the odd game. Which is why I'd be interested to know how you would change things to better help him.
 

Zen86

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Of all the variables to consider, Pogba not being "proven" in the PL (where he's actually gotten into the team of the season) is surely at the bottom of the list.

How about us undeniably having worse managers than Chelsea in that period? Or Pogba only playing under 2 managers in his time here, one of whom has been proven to be washed up, with the other being a total unknown quality (and not in a good way)? Even us having a less than efficient transfer strategy is another key variable.

With all the variables to think of, saying the guy who's been pivotal in winning a world cup, getting to consecutive CL finals, winning leagues etc. is an unknown quality due to not being proven in the PL just smacks of trying to avoid the issue. I doubt you would use that rational for other foreign transfer targets you want brought in.
Nobody said he was an unknown quality, he’s unproven on a consistent basis in the Premier League. You can sidestep that very simple fact all you want, but it‘s not going away. That’s why we’re having this conversation, that’s why the fanbase and media alike are torn on him, that’s why he’s generally regarded as not having lived up to his price tag.

And you can also name all the variables you want as well. It’s the two managers fault, its the coaches fault, the dinner lady, it’s the fault of those playing alongside him, it’s the fault of the fans for having too high expectations of him. Maybe, just maybe it’s him.

It’s not like he’s the only player to have ever struggled in English football, although you wouldn’t think it from hearing you rattle on.
 

He'sRaldo

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I would agree this season was one of his better ones and certainly perfection isn't expected.

However, within the context of next season the question of Pogba remains open for a few reasons. Quite clearly the first one would be that we don't know where his future will be.

Beyond that, there are quite natural questions to be asked if he does stay. There is a clamour for a new central midfielder and this player will hopefully be bought with some plan in mind and a staying Pogba would have to feature quite heavily in that thinking. Both in terms of where we expect to play him, and also the qualities of the player we buy. Can we keep shunting Pogba around depending on the opposition, or do we try to find a formula that works for the most part? These wouldn't be questions worth posing if Pogba had deployed his talent as often as we hoped when he was bought.

If it is not the current system, what sort of system do you think would get the best out of him, and alongside who (in realistic terms)?

I would say he's been played deep because the idea was that Pogba is our most talented player so we need to get him on the ball and helping our passing, which ties in with your idea that he's our best player there - he certainly is technically. He's also not unrounded. The other viable positions are ones he is capable of and can have some good games in, but within our structure and with our personnel don't actually make much sense at all except for the odd game. Which is why I'd be interested to know how you would change things to better help him.
I think we should try and get good money for him, and get a player who's a natural in the double pivot. Another club elsewhere can get the best out of him, but I doubt it's happening here.
 

NZT-One

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I would agree this season was one of his better ones and certainly perfection isn't expected.

However, within the context of next season the question of Pogba remains open for a few reasons. Quite clearly the first one would be that we don't know where his future will be.

Beyond that, there are quite natural questions to be asked if he does stay. There is a clamour for a new central midfielder and this player will hopefully be bought with some plan in mind and a staying Pogba would have to feature quite heavily in that thinking. Both in terms of where we expect to play him, and also the qualities of the player we buy. Can we keep shunting Pogba around depending on the opposition, or do we try to find a formula that works for the most part? These wouldn't be questions worth posing if Pogba had deployed his talent as often as we hoped when he was bought.

If it is not the current system, what sort of system do you think would get the best out of him, and alongside who (in realistic terms)?

I would say he's been played deep because the idea was that Pogba is our most talented player so we need to get him on the ball and helping our passing, which ties in with your idea that he's our best player there - he certainly is technically. He's also not unrounded. The other viable positions are ones he is capable of and can have some good games in, but within our structure and with our personnel don't actually make much sense at all except for the odd game. Which is why I'd be interested to know how you would change things to better help him.
I think, this video can open a few more angles to have a look at the issue here.
(the video title is somewhat misleading as at least half of it is a description of the way, France set up against Germany and how that led to the performances we've seen)

I think the discussion is quite difficult because Pogba as an individual is an extremely unique and talented footballer like nobody else in world football right now. A decision to step away from him wouldn't be due to him not being good enough but to us not being able to facilitate or provide a system, he can flourish in.

Of course losing Pogba would a loss in talent and player quality. But he is unique in every sense of the word, his skillset is special, you have to compensate some traits and weaknesses. Nevertheless, I personally don't think, that Uniteds decision makers have it in them to create a system like the one described in the video - not literally but in terms of complexity, workrate, team work and preparation. And therefor it might be benefitial to say thankyou and goodbye and end this infinite struggle on how to get Pogba into the team by having a more robust, "standardized" player in there that doesn't need so much tweaking to pay back your investment.

Regarding the criticism towards Fred: I think, if we want to somehow bring Pogba into the matchday squad, than a Player with Fred's dynamism is absolutely key. His workrate is able to cover not only for Pogba but also for other team members. The match of France was quite interesting, seeing even Griezmann doing his fair share of defensive work. This is a factor that is lacking in our team, getting rid of Fred maybe increase our passing metrics by one or two percent but I have a strong feeling, that the team in total would suffer because of the missing link, that Fred provides.
We have seen how Pogba and Matic together look like. Great players but not able to hold the centre of the pitch on their own. This isn't the way forward.
 

He'sRaldo

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Nobody said he was an unknown quality, he’s unproven on a consistent basis in the Premier League. You can sidestep that very simple fact all you want, but it‘s not going away. That’s why we’re having this conversation, that’s why the fanbase and media alike are torn on him, that’s why he’s generally regarded as not having lived up to his price tag.

And you can also name all the variables you want as well. It’s the two managers fault, its the coaches fault, the dinner lady, it’s the fault of those playing alongside him, it’s the fault of the fans for having too high expectations of him. Maybe, just maybe it’s him.

It’s not like he’s the only player to have ever struggled in English football, although you wouldn’t think it from hearing you rattle on.
No need to get too worked up about it, just a difference of opinion eh?

In the PL, the main reason why he's not seen as successful, or "proven" as you say, is because we haven't won the league. If we actually capitalized on one of his world class periods of form and went ahead to win the league (the same way City did for Gundogan this season), I reckon he'd be viewed differently. We saw proof of that this year when KDB won player of the season on the back of a pretty mediocre season, simply because City won the league.

In any case, we both agree that he should be sold so I see no problem there. Out of interest, would you be willing to see him go to Chelsea (or City) on a free, since he's such a problematic player?
 

Mickson

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Inter Milan are currently having a fire sale, why don’t we inquire about Marcelo Brozović availability. He’s a quality DMF and would certainly be a vast improvement on the Fred McT partnership.
He's not British and he doesn't play for Leicester City. We seem to go for the obvious ones.
 

Abraxas

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I think we should try and get good money for him, and get a player who's a natural in the double pivot. Another club elsewhere can get the best out of him, but I doubt it's happening here.
Ah, how very defeatist :D
 

He'sRaldo

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Ah, how very defeatist :D
Not defeatist so much as realistic.

We've clearly nailed our colours to Bruno being the main, undroppable creative midfielder, and Bruno benefits a lot from two adept ball-winners behind him. Add to this the fact that we've basically married the 4-2-3-1 formation, and it seems the obvious solution is to get players that actually fit the roles instead of all the shoehorning we keep doing.

I don't know how far this can really take us, but it's the only realistic direction to go. There are obviously other more intricate ways of setting up and getting the best out of our current midfield and attack, but the coaching staff have shown little interest in any of that so there's no use thinking about it.
 

jesperjaap

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Talk of trying to fit Pogba in to the midfield when it hasnt worked so far....for me, we should be signing two new central midfielders this summer, but failure to buy one this sumemr would be scandalous when there are an abundance of them.....

Barella, Locatelli, Zakaria, Gravenburch, Saul, Camavinga, Bellingham, Kamara, Rice.....could go on and on

Obviously a few may not be available, a few maybe unrealistic fees and also huge competition for some but there are just so many quality young central midfielders about this summer potentially available that an £80m+ contract on Pogba just shouldnt even be a consideration in my opinion
 

jesperjaap

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Of all the variables to consider, Pogba not being "proven" in the PL (where he's actually featured in the team of the season) is surely at the bottom of the list.

How about us undeniably having worse managers than Chelsea in that period? Or Pogba only playing under 2 managers in his time here, one of whom has been proven to be washed up, with the other being a total unknown quality (and not in a good way)? Even us having a less than efficient transfer strategy is another key variable.

With all the variables to think of, saying the guy who's been pivotal in winning a world cup, getting to consecutive CL finals, winning leagues etc. is an unknown quality due to not being proven in the PL just smacks of trying to avoid the issue. I doubt you would use that rational for other foreign transfer targets you want brought in.
I think the main variables with Pogba to consider is the contract that he wants and the fact he has been here for a considerable period of time and bar a three month period has never been the player the record transfer fee we paid that he was expecged to be.

Of course there are many factors a lot of which you mention to why that may be and he has been better than a lot of players. But does Pogba bring more answers or questions?

International and club football though more diluted are two different beasts but when you talk about poor managers, transfers and players around him.....Bryan Robson had worse managers and players around him for the majority of his career and he was world class every season when fit.

The simple fact is Pogba hasnt justified his fee, doesnt justify the new contract and with so many excellent midfielders potentially available, many of which I feel whether or not you think they are as talented or effective as Pogba, fit the double pivot and balance of our side better than him....for me, now s the right time to move on from Pogba....that doesnt solve everything, but its a bold step in the right direction, pandering to a new contract or letting him run the current one down I think are signs of weakness personally
 

He'sRaldo

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I think the main variables with Pogba to consider is the contract that he wants and the fact he has been here for a considerable period of time and bar a three month period has never been the player the record transfer fee we paid that he was expecged to be.

Of course there are many factors a lot of which you mention to why that may be and he has been better than a lot of players. But does Pogba bring more answers or questions?

International and club football though more diluted are two different beasts but when you talk about poor managers, transfers and players around him.....Bryan Robson had worse managers and players around him for the majority of his career and he was world class every season when fit.

The simple fact is Pogba hasnt justified his fee, doesnt justify the new contract and with so many excellent midfielders potentially available, many of which I feel whether or not you think they are as talented or effective as Pogba, fit the double pivot and balance of our side better than him....for me, now s the right time to move on from Pogba....that doesnt solve everything, but its a bold step in the right direction, pandering to a new contract or letting him run the current one down I think are signs of weakness personally
I don't agree with a lot of that, but at the end of the day I do agree that he should be sold and a better fit brought in.

That said, if we don't acknowledge and address the reasons behind the issues you mention, we'll continue to under-perform relative to our standing, and no doubt continue to blame our players as well.

Like you said there are seemingly a few quality mids available. Let's see if we can get one that actually fits our needs this time, and hopefully not get another VdB, Matic, Pogba, etc.
 

charlenefan

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Midfield is blatantly not going to be addressed this summer, look how the Sancho thing is dragging out and then there's the CB position as well. I'd be absolutely amazed if we get a new starting midfielder in, the way things going I'm doubting Sancho and the CB as well
 

CanadianUtd

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Ole got us to a 2nd place finish this past season without a natural DM in the starting 11. Matic is the only one on the squad except he can’t play regularly due to age.

McFred are both ball winning CMs that are at their best when they attack the opposition to win the ball back while having a DM behind them as an extra layer of support between them and the defence (less pressure for them to have the sole responsibility at mid + allows them to play to their strengths).

...the coaching staff were forced to play them where they did because simply put there’s no better options. What is Olé going to do about our mid? More like, what is the board going to do - get the team an actual DM that naturally plays the position.
 

Zen86

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No need to get too worked up about it, just a difference of opinion eh?

In the PL, the main reason why he's not seen as successful, or "proven" as you say, is because we haven't won the league. If we actually capitalized on one of his world class periods of form and went ahead to win the league (the same way City did for Gundogan this season), I reckon he'd be viewed differently. We saw proof of that this year when KDB won player of the season on the back of a pretty mediocre season, simply because City won the league.

In any case, we both agree that he should be sold so I see no problem there. Out of interest, would you be willing to see him go to Chelsea (or City) on a free, since he's such a problematic player?
Sorry, but that’s just a load of rubbish. Bruno is seen as a successful transfer, he very much proved himself in a short space of time and no, he hasn’t won the league either.

Your last comment sounds like a bit of a pity party I’m afraid. I don’t necessarily want him sold, I’m quite indifferent on him at the moment. I actually thought his best spell of form came last season, he was carrying us at times before his injury. But again, the question is if he can do it for a full season.
 

rotherham_red

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You needn't worry about that. He's already proven in other systems, so the suspicion that he'd hold us back under a more suitable framework is unwarranted.

I'm big on the idea of getting the best out of players (SAF was our manager for so long after all), so I strongly disagree that Paul Pogba is just a hopeless case. The unfortunate thing with Pogba has been (i) our managerial choices, and (ii) our speed in moving on from managers of a questionable level.

Kante is a good example. He's being raved about now, but when he was with Sarri and Lampard who didn't know how to use him to his maximum ability, he was seen as a good but limited, even declining, player. It's no coincidence that his stock is much higher under his 2 best managers. Now if you look at Kante's career, he's been at Chelsea for the same amount of time as Pogba at Utd. However, he's played under twice as many managers, and luckily for him 2 of them happened to be world class managers who got the best out of him. No matter how much you like Ole or Mourinho, the same cannot be said for Pogba.

At this point though, I reckon it would be best to build in a different direction. Since Ole is staying, I don't think the midfield ideas will change in any significant way and in that case, a more creative but defensively solid upgrade on McTominay is the way to go.
That's precisely the issue: look at who he's played with in those systems. Prime Pirlo, Marchisio, and Vidal at Juve. Kante the demon with France, and even then they still needed a Matuidi/Rabiot to do his running for him. Neither of those are in any way a "normal" collection of players. They literally do or did all the work in midfield so that Pogba didn't have to.

He's a top talent with so much to his game, but he's too tactically deficient to run a team's midfield or attack. That was the case at both Juve and Utd. And he thrives best in a position where he doesn't really have much responsibility placed upon him.

With our parsimonious owners being who they are, we aren't going to fix that midfield issue at all until next summer at the earliest, so I think the best case scenario moving forwards will be having Pogba playing off the LW and I think that's where we'll deploy him outside of injuries occurring in the midfield area.
 

Desert Eagle

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Ole must buy a midfielder. If Pogba and one of mcfred get injured we are completely fecked.
 

Maticmaker

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Obviously Kante is the best midfielder in the world at what he does BUT yesterday was just another example that Pogba CAN play the same role for us that he does for France, it’s simply a case of putting the right player alongside him in other for him to play there.

If we end up with a front four of Cavani, Sancho, Fernandes and Rashford we have a front four as good as anyone in world football so it’s not a case of Pogba not having the players in front of him like he does for France in Mbappe, Benzema and Griezmann so it’s clear the problem is who’s alongside him which is McTominay, Fred or Matic.
Agreed with the above would just add, lets 'break the bank' go for Kante, whatever he wants he gets, whatever Chelsea want for him they get.... even if its Pogba!
i.e. sell Pogba to Chelsea and start again in midfield with the £100m we get for Paul.

We've been messing about over the midfield ever since Carrick hung up his boots; maybe we do have some youngsters who might make it e.g. Garner, but youngsters such as him will never get there unless he's in the team on a regular basis, good midfielders take time to come to fruition.
Matic was great when he arrived and even now he can, as a sub, provide an old-head towards the end of a game we want to see out, or prevent a hammering like we nearly got against City two seasons back, but he's going his badges now...for a reason!
'McFred' duo can be the safety-net against top teams, but not much good against packed and properly marshalled defences.
Until the midfield gets sorted properly, we are just 'bobbing up and down on the tide'.
 

Abraxas

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Agreed with the above would just add, lets 'break the bank' go for Kante, whatever he wants he gets, whatever Chelsea want for him they get.... even if its Pogba!
i.e. sell Pogba to Chelsea and start again in midfield with the £100m we get for Paul.

We've been messing about over the midfield ever since Carrick hung up his boots; maybe we do have some youngsters who might make it e.g. Garner, but youngsters such as him will never get there unless he's in the team on a regular basis, good midfielders take time to come to fruition.
Matic was great when he arrived and even now he can, as a sub, provide an old-head towards the end of a game we want to see out, or prevent a hammering like we nearly got against City two seasons back, but he's going his badges now...for a reason!
'McFred' duo can be the safety-net against top teams, but not much good against packed and properly marshalled defences.
Until the midfield gets sorted properly, we are just 'bobbing up and down on the tide'.
Throwing money at a Kante can't be the answer, even in the very unlikely event it was possible that Chelsea would sell him to us for anything approaching a reasonable sum. He's 30 years old, given his style he's probably got a couple of seasons at this particular level. We need something more long-term, you are speaking of messing around since Carrick retired and then within the same breath advocating a short term fix for colossal figures.

I think we need long term thinking. This player has to be the man to balance what we have, be of first team quality but also potentially be the man that provides a stable figure that allows the young players like Garner to come through. A 2 season job isn't ideal.
 

He'sRaldo

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Sorry, but that’s just a load of rubbish. Bruno is seen as a successful transfer, he very much proved himself in a short space of time and no, he hasn’t won the league either.

Your last comment sounds like a bit of a pity party I’m afraid. I don’t necessarily want him sold, I’m quite indifferent on him at the moment. I actually thought his best spell of form came last season, he was carrying us at times before his injury. But again, the question is if he can do it for a full season.
You're the one who is asserting Pogba is unproven in the PL, which is definitely a load of rubbish especially with the example you just gave. It makes no sense to say that he had a spell of form where he carried us at times in the PL, and yet still call him unproven in the PL.

If the question is can Pogba can carry us game after game throughout an entire season, the answer is no. Even Bruno, who plays a more attacking role and in your opinion is more proven, couldn't do it. It's fair to say most players can't except the crazy 50 goal per season attackers, so if that's what we need from Pogba to be able to call him proven/successful/consistent/whatever, then best to just sell him now.
 

Zen86

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You're the one who is asserting Pogba is unproven in the PL, which is definitely a load of rubbish especially with the example you just gave. It makes no sense to say that he had a spell of form where he carried us at times in the PL, and yet still call him unproven in the PL.

If the question is can Pogba can carry us game after game throughout an entire season, the answer is no. Even Bruno, who plays a more attacking role and in your opinion is more proven, couldn't do it. It's fair to say most players can't except the crazy 50 goal per season attackers, so if that's what we need from Pogba to be able to call him proven/successful/consistent/whatever, then best to just sell him now.
He’s inconsistent and hasn’t lived up to his billing :lol: , let’s just leave it at that.
 

Ali Dia

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Talk of trying to fit Pogba in to the midfield when it hasnt worked so far....for me, we should be signing two new central midfielders this summer, but failure to buy one this sumemr would be scandalous when there are an abundance of them.....

Barella, Locatelli, Zakaria, Gravenburch, Saul, Camavinga, Bellingham, Kamara, Rice.....could go on and on

Obviously a few may not be available, a few maybe unrealistic fees and also huge competition for some but there are just so many quality young central midfielders about this summer potentially available that an £80m+ contract on Pogba just shouldnt even be a consideration in my opinion
this
 

Bastian

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I insist. Our midfield is not the problem. Its our defence and right flank
Against deep defending sides, we lack tempo and creativity. Against high pressing sides, we lack technical ability and composure. We need to fix the defense for sure, and we've lacked that balance on the wings for absolute eons, but a team that controls a full game (i.e. is comfortable overall) dominates through midfield. This is not possible at the moment, be it through personnel, formation or tactics (or all of the above).
 

He'sRaldo

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That's precisely the issue: look at who he's played with in those systems. Prime Pirlo, Marchisio, and Vidal at Juve. Kante the demon with France, and even then they still needed a Matuidi/Rabiot to do his running for him. Neither of those are in any way a "normal" collection of players. They literally do or did all the work in midfield so that Pogba didn't have to.

He's a top talent with so much to his game, but he's too tactically deficient to run a team's midfield or attack. That was the case at both Juve and Utd. And he thrives best in a position where he doesn't really have much responsibility placed upon him.

With our parsimonious owners being who they are, we aren't going to fix that midfield issue at all until next summer at the earliest, so I think the best case scenario moving forwards will be having Pogba playing off the LW and I think that's where we'll deploy him outside of injuries occurring in the midfield area.
True there are a litany of differences between him at Utd and elsewhere. That said, he's actually performed best at Utd. He's had spells which rival and surpass anything he did at the World Cup, and his numbers have gotten better from his Juve days. The only difference is the lack of top silverware.

As for next season, it's hard to decide which is better between recouping a fee right now, or playing him off the left and in midfield but with him leaving on a free afterwards. I lean more towards the former because then maybe that will push us to fix the midfield asap instead of putting it off, but it's a risk especially with the way we're run.
 

032Devil

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VDB would be sold for 30m and Pogba will fetch 30-40m
It seems United fans have caught the disease that the United board has ie, under-estimating the value of our players. Your valuation of Pogba is absurd! Especially considering his performance in the Euros (so far).

If its to be believed United offered £50m for a 28 year old defender on the last year of his contract and Madrid's price is £80m.
 

devilish

Juventus fan who used to support United
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Messages
61,527
It seems United fans have caught the disease that the United board has ie, under-estimating the value of our players. Your valuation of Pogba is absurd! Especially considering his performance in the Euros (so far).

If its to be believed United offered £50m for a 28 year old defender on the last year of his contract and Madrid's price is £80m.
I am perfectly aware of how good Pogba is and it breaks my heart seeing these bunch of on the job training coaches/manager mismanaging him the way they are doing. However I have followed Mino Raiola long enough to know what a pain in the arse and what a viper he can be especially when he holds all the cards. United will have the choice of either selling him on the cheap or losing him on a free in few months time. The only honourable way out of this that I can think off is if we can swap him with Varane.

Regarding your second sentence I think the less said about our negotiators (Woodward, his puppet Murtough whose now DOF and Judge) the better.
 

He'sRaldo

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While I don't fully agree, it's interesting to see 3 of our midfielders starting for France, Portugal, and Brazil.

These 3 teams are all in the top 5 FIFA ranking.
Also interesting to point out that none have played as the most defensive midfielder, all had a more defensive midfielder behind them. Maybe a blatant clue as to where we need to reinforce?
 

Andersons Dietician

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Personally I think the issue that needs fixing is Bruno’s role in the team. I’m sure I saw him playing more as an 8 for Sporting and surely he has the tools to do it. Just find with him playing so far ahead of the midfield it just doesn’t get the best out of the team. Playing a bit deeper and playing extra passes in midfield and I would think we will vastly improve and maybe be able to play Pogba with him in a 3.

I’m not sure if Rice is the man or if Pogba or Bruno will work. I think it will come down to can Bruno change from what he has been doing that will either make it successful or not.

However I‘m sure I’ve also heard Ole say he likes having the two B2B players McT and Fred for the hard work they go through so does Ole even want to step away from that?

On Fred, I think he’s very good at recovery runs and pressing people. The little fecker will run all day for you but he seems a bit like a Labrador as in it all seems quite frantic. You watch Kante and it just seems relaxed. He’s more ok they probably going to go down this way, so I’ll just move to here so I can stop the danger. Then he does. Fred’s more like, ok where is it, where is the ball, oh he has the ball. Fred SMASH!!!!! Then he realises it’s his arch nemesis Ruben Loftus and he bounces off him.

What really needs to happen and LVG even back when kept saying this is the intensity in our play. Pass quicker, give options quicker. So often we seem locked in this conundrum of we don’t pass it quick enough so people don’t make the option and we don’t make the option so people don’t pass. That goes throughout the whole team and not just the McFred combo.

Also with the lack of actual time Ole and that have had to actually work on stuff and drill things it’s quite hard to judge. Most of the time has probably been spent on just preparing things for the next game and recovery sessions instead of a large period of time to actually drill stuff.
 

Idxomer

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Messages
15,014
Also interesting to point out that none have played as the most defensive midfielder, all had a more defensive midfielder behind them. Maybe a blatant clue as to where we need to reinforce?
We've been trying very hard to shoehorn McTominay in this position which might have actually slowed his development in the last year.
 

032Devil

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Joined
Oct 26, 2004
Messages
22,146
I am perfectly aware of how good Pogba is and it breaks my heart seeing these bunch of on the job training coaches/manager mismanaging him the way they are doing. However I have followed Mino Raiola long enough to know what a pain in the arse and what a viper he can be especially when he holds all the cards. United will have the choice of either selling him on the cheap or losing him on a free in few months time. The only honourable way out of this that I can think off is if we can swap him with Varane.

Regarding your second sentence I think the less said about our negotiators (Woodward, his puppet Murtough whose now DOF and Judge) the better.
 

Bastian

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Personally I think the issue that needs fixing is Bruno’s role in the team. I’m sure I saw him playing more as an 8 for Sporting and surely he has the tools to do it. Just find with him playing so far ahead of the midfield it just doesn’t get the best out of the team. Playing a bit deeper and playing extra passes in midfield and I would think we will vastly improve and maybe be able to play Pogba with him in a 3.

I’m not sure if Rice is the man or if Pogba or Bruno will work. I think it will come down to can Bruno change from what he has been doing that will either make it successful or not.

However I‘m sure I’ve also heard Ole say he likes having the two B2B players McT and Fred for the hard work they go through so does Ole even want to step away from that?

On Fred, I think he’s very good at recovery runs and pressing people. The little fecker will run all day for you but he seems a bit like a Labrador as in it all seems quite frantic. You watch Kante and it just seems relaxed. He’s more ok they probably going to go down this way, so I’ll just move to here so I can stop the danger. Then he does. Fred’s more like, ok where is it, where is the ball, oh he has the ball. Fred SMASH!!!!! Then he realises it’s his arch nemesis Ruben Loftus and he bounces off him.

What really needs to happen and LVG even back when kept saying this is the intensity in our play. Pass quicker, give options quicker. So often we seem locked in this conundrum of we don’t pass it quick enough so people don’t make the option and we don’t make the option so people don’t pass. That goes throughout the whole team and not just the McFred combo.

Also with the lack of actual time Ole and that have had to actually work on stuff and drill things it’s quite hard to judge. Most of the time has probably been spent on just preparing things for the next game and recovery sessions instead of a large period of time to actually drill stuff.
This to me is the biggest flaw in our game. Collectively. And we have threads devoted to this (anything that has to do with coaching, style of play, what does Phelan do, etc.). It is both a coaching issue (there is no way around that, it's obvious) as well as a personnel issue. You could say that with the best coaches around, you could eventually weed out the players that can't hack it, but we don't have that, so we don't know what the ratio is. What we do have to go on, is that McTominay - though improving quite a bit - does not really show for the ball enough for a midfielder, and Fred's passing is not good enough. It could be that McTominay shies away from the ball because of his limited passing, but that just further illustrates our deficiencies. They work as a midfield pivot for how we're currently set up, but how we're currently set up does not work to really go places, or to make light work of matches every now and then, let alone most of the time.

We'll definitely be better all around by having a competent centre back next to Maguire, by having a different tactical option to AWB, and by having Sancho (though as many have pointed out, he's more dynamic on the left) wide right. But the main part of our game that's been suffering for the longest while is lack of tempo in possession, and lack of movement.

It won't be fixed purely by buying better players for midfield, it will also require the coaching staff to elevate our game. It does need addressing though, no question.
 

032Devil

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Joined
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22,146
I am perfectly aware of how good Pogba is and it breaks my heart seeing these bunch of on the job training coaches/manager mismanaging him the way they are doing. However I have followed Mino Raiola long enough to know what a pain in the arse and what a viper he can be especially when he holds all the cards. United will have the choice of either selling him on the cheap or losing him on a free in few months time. The only honourable way out of this that I can think off is if we can swap him with Varane.

Regarding your second sentence I think the less said about our negotiators (Woodward, his puppet Murtough whose now DOF and Judge) the better.
Its the same situation with both players. Both are the same age and exceptional in their relative positions. It was just an observation that Real want £80m for their player and if what you say is true, United want a much lower fee for our player. In another similar situation, I've read that United want around £25m to £30m for Lingard, a player who's played a very significant role for West Ham who want about £100m fro Rice who is not worth anywhere near that price.

I don't think acting honourably should come into it. There have been many-a-time that other big clubs have acted brazenly where we done the right thing but yet still get screwed. Where has it got us? We lose money on very good players, pay over-the-odds for their players.

I agree with you re Woodward et all. But in their defence, they're just fall guys for the vermin Glazers.
 

krentz

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Am i the only one who think what we need is a deep lying playmaker instead of another defensive minded central midfielder? I think Fred is just fine as a destroyer, he's got a great engine to break up play but we're lacking someone who can distribute the ball, someone who can find Bruno or Greenwood/sancho/Rashford deep from midfield area. Jose and Ole tried this many times with Pogba to no avail because for some reason Pogba find it difficult to play in midfield 2 at United, furthermore players of this ilk are available in the market right now, Ruben Neves/Joao Moutinho, these are 2 metronoms we should be able acquire without breakin the bank.