Are we as good a destination for young players as we like to champion?...

Discussion in 'Manchester United Forum' started by Rozay, May 10, 2018.

  1. May 10, 2018
    #1

    Rozay Master of Hindsight

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    I appreciate we have had different managers of late, with different attitudes towards young players - but I’m talking about the club as a whole, and specifically, our fans.

    This forum likes to have a dog at the likes of City or Chelsea for not promoting, or Real for buying stars, but it seems we, or at least, many of us, collectively don’t have the stomach for the ride of developing young talent either.

    Going through the caf this season, I’ve seen many posters very happy to sell the likes of Martial, Pogba and Shaw ‘if the right offer came in’ etc, at least after a poor performance by them. If we are talking of young and developing players, you really won’t get much better than that lot. Pereira is another many are happy to be sold very easily.

    I don’t blindly champion kids, and am far from McTominay’s biggest fan, for example, as I’m not sure I’m nice enough to agree with rewarding him for ‘being a good boy’. He isn’t talented enough IMO. But younger players who have clearly demonstrated the required level of talent on more than a few occasions, but simply haven’t put it all together yet, should surely get more patience.

    The thing is, posters would probably like to think we are a better destination than PSG for the likes of Mbappé, but many are no more patient with the last Mbappé who we signed ourselves, and due to a combination of our manager and our fans (at least from what I read) - I’m not sure the top young talents in the game would be making the wisest move by coming to United at the moment, which is something I’d never think I’d say.
  2. May 10, 2018
    #2

    Dolf Full Member

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    It depends on the position of the player I think. It would probably be a great move for a CB or a CDM. Look at Bailly or Mctominay. Same for a goalkeeper (If we didn't have De Gea).

    The reason alot of posters want to sell young talent is probably because we haven't challenged for the league in a few years and we want instant result/quality.
  3. May 10, 2018
    #3

    Rozay Master of Hindsight

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    I agree, but the irony is that they typically want them replaced with the next lot of young talent! As I said, we will struggle to get better developing players than some of the ones we have already.
  4. May 10, 2018
    #4

    GDaly95 Sexist Pig

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    To be fair I just went into the Ryan Sessegnon thread and it seems to be full of people admitting it'd be foolish for him to join us, so I'm not sure we're really championing it all that much.
  5. May 10, 2018
    #5

    Skills Snitch

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    No
  6. May 10, 2018
    #6

    coolredwine lameredboots

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    Not anymore, and especially not under Mourinho.
  7. May 10, 2018
    #7

    Jim Beam The Joker

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    At this point in time, we are not the club in which both the club and the fans have the patience for young players. And imo, that situation will get only worse with each passing year we don't see EPL trophy again.
    So, yes, I do agree with everything OP said, if I was a young talented player or an agent of one, the move to United wouldn't be my preferred option in the current climate. Unfortunately, both as I loved that part of the club culture and as I think it's the wrong way forward.
  8. May 10, 2018
    #8

    Siorac Full Member

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    We've been a graveyard for all sorts of talent recently, regardless of age - not many players flourished after joining United in the post-SAF years.
  9. May 10, 2018
    #9

    Zlatattack Full Member

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    Ask Scott McTominay or Marcus Rashford.

    Or our goalkeeper who's been a regular for us since he was 21.

    Or you can ask Lukaku, Lingard, Pogba, Jones, Smalling, Martial, Bailly, Lindelof if they got/are getting regular game time at Manchester united in their early 20's.

    We are not Dortmund, we have title ambitions and one of the worlds biggest budgets. We can spend big money on senior players (like Sanchez), or take risks with younger players. We are not forced to play the under 21's as our first team. Despite that, most of our squad is young players, especially those starting regularly (or have been young players who've matured into our team).

    I don't really like Jose Mourinho either, but he plays players based on their performances, or his personal like/dislike for them, he doesn't discriminate on age. This season he played Rashford, Martial and McTomminay (as well as Bailly). He's given chances to Shaw (maybe not enough, idk), but suddenly we're a graveyard for young players? I don't think so.
  10. May 10, 2018
    #10

    Sky1981 Fending off the urge

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    Unless you're mbappe class young player most top clubs are bad since you wont have time to develop. Not only us, but bayern juve barcelona madrid et all needed you to perform week in week out, or in the case of just "potentially becoming good" then you have to wait and be content with limited gametime.

    It's the same all over, it's not only us. Moving to a big club too soon can sometimes be the poison chalice that ruins a youngster career.
  11. May 10, 2018
    #11

    12OunceEpilogue Full Member Scout

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    I like the thrust of this post but I don't think any serious United fan thinks we're a graveyard for young players. It's just that as the OP rightly says having been knocked off the top it's natural for fans to want the kind of instant boost back to the top that young players often aren't able to produce given their inconsistency and inexperience.

    There's money and the name, but is there an attractive project going on here, in comparison to say City or (dare I say) Liverpool? You could argue there is, you could argue there isn't, but it is crucial for us to reflect that perception to the next generation of top talents in the coming years.
  12. May 10, 2018
    #12

    Jim Beam The Joker

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    It's not only about been giving a chance, it is proper development of those players that is the bigger issue. Some might say we didn't buy right kind of talent, but it is still worrying that we didn't elevate one young player to a top quality and regular first team material.
    And there is certainly no patience when it comes to their development.
  13. May 10, 2018
    #13

    Rozay Master of Hindsight

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    This is true. But then you look at Sané, Bernardo Silva, Jesus and the trust and impact they have had at City. I think Sterling would also likely have been hounded out of United before he had the opportunity to have a season like he’s just had too.
  14. May 10, 2018
    #14

    luke511 Full Member

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    If you're a young winger, joining Mourinho is a death trap.
  15. May 10, 2018
    #15

    AgentP Full Member

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    This is unfortunately true. Our style of football under any of our last 3 managers does not suit young attacking players.
  16. May 10, 2018
    #16

    Massive Spanner Thinks Geoff Shreeves has one

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    Not since around 2003.
  17. May 10, 2018
    #17

    PepsiCola Full Member

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    Yup. A lack of any sort of footballing identity and scattershot approach to signing players doesn't help.
  18. May 10, 2018
    #18

    Sepukku Correctly predicted Portugal to win Euro 2016

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    Not if they aren't world class from their early 20's we're not.
  19. May 10, 2018
    #19

    Andy_Cole Full Member

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    Not many teams are. What you need as a young player is stability. Think Spurs are probably the most stable at the moment, with them not wanting to spend much, hence why people say they are the best team to go to. Liverpool for the same reason too. United and City, we just have too much money so don't need to be as patient. Madrid, Barca aren't great places to go, Bayern perhaps.

    There you have it, not many big teams are great for young talents!
  20. May 10, 2018
    #20

    Marcky411 Full Member

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    I second that. As long as Jose is in charge NO, yet to see Jose develope any player, let alone a young player. Unless they like sitting on the bench and enjoy the training session with the older players they will be wasting their time at Utd.
  21. May 10, 2018
    #21

    Rozay Master of Hindsight

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    To be fair to City, Sané, Jesus and Bernardo have all done very well there and had important roles.
  22. May 10, 2018
    #22

    bosnian_red Worst scout to ever exist

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    With Mourinho in charge we obviously are not. People can point to him giving appearances to rashford/mctominay, but it's more about actually developing them and keeping them happy and feel valued as part of our team going forward. In the 2 years hes been here, martial went from the most promising u21 player around to unhappy and wants to leave (as many rival fans predicted), rashford has had plenty of talks about him being unhappy, shaw is probably gone, Pigba came in at 22 and already had rumors about leaving and is yet to show his best form for us....I do think it's more the type of player that will struggle with Mourinho rather than the age of them, but in general they'd probably think twice before coming.
  23. May 10, 2018
    #23

    redIndianDevil Full Member

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    Definitely not as long as have Mourinho around.
  24. May 10, 2018
    #24

    Lentwood Full Member

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    No but this is because through years of neglect we don't have a starting XI full of established senior players and for this reason NO manager is going to be able to give young players the time and patience they need to develop

    Having said that, people need to be careful that they don't forget that players like Ronaldo, Rooney, Giggs, Beckham, Scholes etc....came into the team and made themselves undroppable and proved that they should be playing week in, week out

    NONE of our young players have done that. A good game here, a good twenty minutes there doesn't qualify you to be a United-standard starter
  25. May 10, 2018
    #25

    Amir Full Member

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    We're a good place for a young player to get his first chance. As for actually developing after that, no, we're not.
  26. May 10, 2018
    #26

    The holy trinity 68 The disparager

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    Rubbish. Lingard has improved under Mou. Lukaku has improved his overall game. McTominay has had chances and is being developed by Mou. There is 3 examples of players being developed under Mourinho for United alone.

    Not going to bother discussing Porto Inter Chelsea (the first time) Real. Because there was plenty of players he developed/improved.
  27. May 10, 2018
    #27

    Rozay Master of Hindsight

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    That’s not necessarily true. Those players had good and bad games as kids, but we had a more stable core. Martial played well enough in his first season and couldn’t establish himself. He had about 5 mixed performances at the start of his second season and that was that. Pogba goes from being our best player to being dropped if he played poorly. I don’t think the former players did much better as kids in reality.
  28. May 10, 2018
    #28

    VeevaVee despite the protests, wears Ugg boots Scout

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    Yeah we are. You just have to put the right effort in, like has always been the case at United.

    We also need better quality right now, again, like we've always had at United (in my lifetime). It's easy to say that we shouldn't have to sign players in their prime bla bla, but the truth is we were saying this when we had plenty of quality players who were giving their all and people are just repeating it now. It makes for a much better environment to bring younger players through as well, with a core and without as much pressure. Sort the team for now and it's easier to sort the team for the future. Only hoping for people to come good in the future is going to be shit now, and has a high potential of disappointment down the line.
  29. May 10, 2018
    #29

    SS Full Member

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    Yep, there's a difference between actually developing a player and simply giving them game time.
  30. May 10, 2018
    #30

    Bwuk Full Member

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    No. See the abuse the likes of McTominay, Rashford and Martial get.

    Lingard got it too although not sure you can call him a young player anymore.
  31. May 10, 2018
    #31

    Trizy New Member

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    Young players should stay away from all top clubs if they really want to make it in modern football.

    Realistically, unless their the next big thing they won't make it or if they eventually do, it will be later than they should have.

    Nothing beats playing time. Ajax would be my first choice if I was about to sign a professional contract.

    Young players have gotten greedy and want the money and fame instantly. Most from what we see are not prepared to work for it and end up moving away after they've lost some years of progress.
  32. May 10, 2018
    #32

    Andersons Dietician Full Member

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    No, not at this point in time. I was quite happy to bide my time and watch something mature as it was built with LVG and i’d Still be quite happy to watch a team be built and watch it come of age with pretty much any manager if that is what they choose to do.

    Problem now is people don’t have any patience and want it now. There is also a lot more competition than there used to be in our league so players sort of have to hit the ground running. So like I said in the Sessegnon thread the other day if I was in his shoes or any young promising player I wouldn’t be moving here at this moment, hopefully go somewhere else, learn, mature and if I’m good enough then hopefully eventually then move to United.

    Should add what are we classing as young?
    18-22 i’d still want to be developing elsewhere.
    22-24 hopefully you understand enough that you could hang at a top club.
    24-28 if you’re not ready now then you’re probably not going to be.
  33. May 10, 2018
    #33

    el3mel Full Member

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    Nope. Our fans have zero patience overall whatever they try to convince themselves that they want more young products, they're the first to be impatient and slaughter these young players or call them already average due to one or 2 bad matches without even waiting.

    Let's face it the current atmosphere around the big clubs are not good enough for a young talent to get a continuous run, for everyone to endure his inconsistency and thus several bad results in the run till they develop and carry the team on their own. Spurs, Monaco, BVB,,etc are more suited for this role.
  34. May 10, 2018
    #34

    SER19 Full Member

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    This season we regularly played rashford lingard mctominay as well as several other players signed as promising youngsters including de gea, Jones, martial, smalling.

    The league has long been populated with products of our academy and so is the championship.

    I don’t think we champion anything more than a commitment to youth which we easily live up to.

    Our fans, online, are largely, success greedy entitled and spoilt toy throwing turncoats.
  35. May 11, 2018
    #35

    Mr. MUJAC Talent spotter

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    A few things...

    1. United are in the top 10 clubs in Europe...even higher in the past and so for a kid wanting to get into the first team regularly, they would need to be in the top 10 players in the world for their position. That takes some doing at 17/18 years old.

    2. It's therefore a lot easier (theoretically) for Sessegnon or others to play and develop against other players who have significantly less quality. Even at Ajax, the quality of opposition most weeks is average so it's hardly the same pressure.

    3. Every team will have some fantastic talent come through their system once in a while. Brereton at Forest, Sessegnon at Fulham etc but they don't do it year in year out. Therefore it's an outlier or an anomaly. You can't really compare Forest/Fulham developing one really good prospect every five years to play in the Championship to United producing 1/2 a year at the top of the Premiership while competing against Barcelona et al.

    4. McTominay has played in over 20 games in his first full season and has done ok. He will learn and get better. Not everyone can burst onto the scene and make a sudden impact. Whether the OP rates him or not is irrelevant and that's a different debate. However he is an example of one of our youth players being given an opportunity which this club is all about.

    5. I agree that many modern United fans want instant success and social media forums give them a platform for moaning. So everyone is constantly suggesting numerous players to join us. Asking for patience and getting patience are two different things.

    6. We are the most successful club in promoting young talent in the UK and probably in Europe historically. 50% of all our first team players since 1938 have come through our youth system. We have been the most successful domestically in winning trophies. There is clearly a link here.

    7. There are some fans who don't care about whether youth players play or not...all they want is immediate success. Fortunately when you start following United there is a culture/heritage/tradition they you have to get your head around. That's the ways it works.

    8. Since Ferguson left we have won the FA Cup, League Cup, Europa League and now in the FA Cup Final again. The title will come again in due course...some people make it sound as if we getting relegated!
  36. May 11, 2018
    #36

    Dec9003 Correctly predicted Portugal to win Euro 2016

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    It depends on if you want to check the stats and see how many times our young players get to play, or if you prefer to believe Jamie Redknapp.
    People genuinely thinking Ryan Sessengon coming to United would be bad for him are puddled. We play Ashley Young at left back.
  37. May 11, 2018
    #37

    sunama Baghdad Bob

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    Agreed.
    Put simply, we need to win the league. Fans know this. And our board knows this.
    It's not about getting top 4 and being content.
    To this end, we don't have the capacity to allow young players to play in our first team (while they learn their trade). To win the league asap, Jose is buying ready made players who need no further development and who can instantly improve the team.
    And for those fans who say they don't care about winning - would you find it acceptable to be in LFC's position, ie. not winning the league for 3 decades?

    The first objective for MUFC (and other top clubs), is to win trophies. Entertainment and youth development are secondary.
  38. May 11, 2018
    #38

    Mr. MUJAC Talent spotter

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    We should be able to do all three...we have done in the past.

    Bringing players in regularly isn't a problem...bringing 6-7 all in one go will have an negative impact.

    People seem to think it's either/or when in fact it's about managing both.
  39. May 11, 2018
    #39

    Rozay Master of Hindsight

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    So does that mean we are NOT an ideal place for young talent? Also, the team that won the league, by a landslide, have bought in a fair amount of 23 and under players to help them do it over the last couple of seasons. And they were not always this good. They finished 4th last year.
  40. May 11, 2018
    #40

    beedoubleyou Full Member

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    We absolutely are.