Are we jinxed or is there a coaching issue at Manchester United

Wheato

Full Member
Joined
Jul 29, 2013
Messages
465
Location
Manchester
Harry Maguire was a better player when we bought him, than he is now. We can add Bruno, AWB, Pogba and James to that ever growing list. I was watching footage of AWB for Palace against Man City. He was attacking down the wing in their half. He was in City's box, getting crosses in. Now he won't cross the half-way line without getting the jitters. Maguire at Leicester was a dominating presence. When he came for a ball he always won it. He scored goals for Leicester. Even got 5 assists. He is way off that sort of form now. The player that Bruno was from January to March. He hasn't been near that since lockdown. Same with James. He was stretching teams with his pace. Away at the Ethihad last season, they couldn't handle him. Now he's a passenger. Pogba has had about 5 good games in 3 seasons. He was world class for Juve. We could go back to Sanchez, Lukaku, Di Maria...there is fundamentally something rotten at our club where players lose their level of performance, then get it back again as soon as they leave!

Why are we signing good players and then not getting the best out of them? Why is their confidence so low when they play for us. Where is the motivation? Where is the spark that we need to kick-start this team again?
 

Inigo Montoya

Leave Wayne Rooney alone!!
Joined
Oct 1, 2008
Messages
28,958
The coaching issue is probably that all our coaches have tremendous knowledge but are too fecking nice!

We need some good old SAF ire. " Play like that again and you're dropped!" kind of coaching
 

Bwuk

Full Member
Joined
Feb 29, 2012
Messages
13,129
Players aren’t being coached at all.

We rely on individual brilliance. Our side on paper is far better than it is - someone like Poch would make us a far better side.
 

Raw

Full Member
Joined
Oct 31, 2013
Messages
23,706
Location
Manchester, UK
There's no jinx. Coaching has been a huge issue since Fergie left. Players don't know what the feck to do so we tend to rely on counter attacks and individual brilliance.

LVG for all his faults seemed like he had the biggest effect in terms of coaching, it didn't work of course but it was very obvious how different we looked compared to the other managers. I think a part of it is also down to the difference in philosophies between managers. For all the work LVG did with turning us into a possession based team, Mourinho tore it all down and we were back to square one. Then Ole comes in and tears all that down again and we were left with a team full of players who had gone through several different styles. Ole has thankfully managed to oversee a huge change in players and we finally looked like we were building towards something. But then it became apparent that Ole just isn't tactically brilliant enough to take us right to the top, so we've stagnated.

Our next managerial appointment is incredibly important. We simply cannot destroy what Ole has tried to do in terms of the culture and the kinds of players he has brought to the club.
 
Joined
Feb 12, 2018
Messages
14,381
Coaching issues! I can’t stress it enough, players don’t improve when they come here.
 

El Zoido

Full Member
Joined
Jun 7, 2013
Messages
8,555
Location
UK
Players aren’t being coached at all.

We rely on individual brilliance. Our side on paper is far better than it is - someone like Poch would make us a far better side.
Yet our previous coach is one of the greatest ever and looks to be working his magic at Spurs now. LVG was a great coach too. It’s not just Ole, Ole in fact has got us playing our best football in a decade, though it comes and goes. So it can’t just be coaching. If Mourinho couldn’t fix it I doubt Poch could either.
 

Skills

Snitch
Joined
Jan 17, 2012
Messages
32,782
It's been there for a long, long time. Even in Alex Ferguson's last few years we were a poorly coached side, who made up for it with a lot of character, determination and just the right amount of individual brilliance all bought together by Alex Ferguson's genius.

We were pretty well coached under Van Gaal though. He just bought crap . You stick Pogba and Bruno in to his team in the last season and that wouldn't be anywhere near as dreadful as it was to watch. That's where he fecked up.
 

Sparky Rhiwabon

Full Member
Joined
Jul 10, 2013
Messages
11,308
Look at Liverpool - almost every player has improved since joining them in recent years. With us, almost every player has got worse.

This can’t be a coincidence. The reason - coaching / management.
 

Uniquim

Full Member
Joined
Mar 2, 2009
Messages
4,913
Location
Location, Location
There's a quote in the Athletic that seems apt to place in here:

The standard of training sessions is said to be “high and engaging” but there are some who look at Solskjaer’s record with Molde and Cardiff City and wonder whether there is a ceiling. One source close to the players says: “I must be clear, the players I speak to are never saying he’s a disaster. But they question whether he is a top, top coach. They are worried about how things spiral after a bad result, the momentum swings too dramatically. There is a feeling the team is too dependent on players in attack doing wonderful individual things.”
 

gajender

Full Member
Joined
May 7, 2016
Messages
1,087
Our issues are two fold more often than not we have bought fundamentally flawed players whose shortcomings are then compounded by lack of coaching here.
 

Andy_Cole

Full Member
Joined
Apr 15, 2009
Messages
4,814
Location
Manchester
Look at Liverpool - almost every player has improved since joining them in recent years. With us, almost every player has got worse.

This can’t be a coincidence. The reason - coaching / management.
But this has been the case for the last 3 managers.

The reason - jinx.
 

ayushreddevil9

Full Member
Joined
Jul 11, 2015
Messages
5,532
Look at Liverpool - almost every player has improved since joining them in recent years. With us, almost every player has got worse.

This can’t be a coincidence. The reason - coaching / management.
Yeah exactly. I don't think Carrick, McKenna etc bring much to the table.
 

Skills

Snitch
Joined
Jan 17, 2012
Messages
32,782
Look at Liverpool - almost every player has improved since joining them in recent years. With us, almost every player has got worse.

This can’t be a coincidence. The reason - coaching / management.
Players there prior to Klopp has also improved. Jordan Henderson just won player of the year ffs. He took Lovren to a Champions League final and reignited James Miners career, as he looked finished at City. Divock Origi slotted in seamlessly into his team when they dismantled Barcelona.
 

Abhinav

Full Member
Joined
Nov 6, 2017
Messages
339
Its a mentality/ culture issue first and foremost. The bar for keeping your place in the squad is too low. A new player comes to a dressing room that does not push each other to the limits, does not demand the absolute best from one another.
If you hear the comments from our more successful signings under Fergie, all said that when they walked into the first training session they were surprised at the intensity and the level at which players were operating at. They quickly had to reach that level themselves or they would be out of the door. It seems the situation is polar opposite right now.
 

matt23

Full Member
Joined
Oct 5, 2013
Messages
794
I think this is ultimately likely to be the reason Ole gets sacked.

While there is a decent argument to suggest getting to third and doing well in the cups should have bought him more support, following the form of his expensive signings paints a bleak picture.

£130m on Maguire and AWB alone - they're not going anywhere and it's likely the club will see Ole as the more replaceable asset.
 

CG1010

Full Member
Joined
Dec 7, 2012
Messages
2,673
This has been a constant across 4 different managers and coaching teams so I don't think its just Ole's problem. I think the main problems at the club are the two:

1. The challenge of meeting SAF's teams standard is too much given the quality of the team. This either results in too much mental pressure or too little as the players (and staff) stop caring - this is a fantastic example of the central thesis of the book "Flow" that says that for optimal performance you need the challenge and ability to match

2. Our team is extremely imbalanced for a long long time - therefore instead of the sum of parts being greater than equal, we are the opposite. This is because of the pathetic transfer strategy of the Board and extremely different managers with different priorities.

To get out of the mess I feel its extremely important to have proper football men back running the club. This will give confidence to the players. Woodward's sacking has become absolutely crucial IMO. Its like even if he is doing okay now, the past baggage of being associated as completely incompetent affects the image and behaviour of all concerned
 

Revan

Assumptionman
Joined
Dec 19, 2011
Messages
42,116
Location
CA
Even at our best last season, we were almost exclusively relied on individual brilliance (except possibly Martial and Rashford who were synced together at some stage). Right now, we look totally uncoached, same as we looked under Moyes and Mourinho. Only under LVG there were signs of a well drilled team, but we were pretty bad at the final third.
 

Tom Cato

Full Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2019
Messages
2,614
The coaching issue is probably that all our coaches have tremendous knowledge but are too fecking nice!

We need some good old SAF ire. " Play like that again and you're dropped!" kind of coaching
Phil Jones had one bad half, was subbed off and hasn't been seen since. I don't think the coaching staff are too coddly.
 

Oldyella

Full Member
Joined
Jan 8, 2014
Messages
3,213
But this has been the case for the last 3 managers.

The reason - jinx.
Moyes - Never up to it.
LVG - We definitely saw signs of patterns of play and coaching, it is possible and not jinxed, just boring.
Jose - Hes always been a solid structure and rely on magic type of coach and it worked for a couple of seasons till he started showing his arse. Not jinxed either
Ole - Jury is well and truly out if hes up to it too, record prior to us suggests not. Hardly a jinx we just panicked and appointed him after a new manager bounce. Trying too hard to emulate Fergie (imo)

Jinx or just appointing the wrong managers?

Its a mentality/ culture issue first and foremost. The bar for keeping your place in the squad is too low. A new player comes to a dressing room that does not push each other to the limits, does not demand the absolute best from one another.
If you hear the comments from our more successful signings under Fergie, all said that when they walked into the first training session they were surprised at the intensity and the level at which players were operating at. They quickly had to reach that level themselves or they would be out of the door. It seems the situation is polar opposite right now.
100% Imagine Bruno coming in and training with Jones, Lingard, Pereira etc. We keep hold of players way too long. Bruno seems like a good step, good player apparently not afraid of calling out others who feck up. Need more like him.
 

Adam-Utd

Part of first caf team to complete Destiny raid
Joined
Sep 10, 2010
Messages
26,939
Coaching for sure.

I honestly think we keep going down this "we're man united" path and bringing in people who know the club, but we need a fresh start.

hanging onto the past isn't helping, we need a modern coach who wants to play the modern way.

I love Ole and think he's done a good job, but he's limited in what he can bring us. His idea of football is get the ball up the pitch and close to the goal as fast as possible and shoot. We need a coach that aims to press and keep possession better to be able to conquer Europe.
 

amolbhatia50k

Sneaky bum time
Joined
Nov 8, 2002
Messages
76,566
Location
india
We are one team that never modernised when it comes to tactics. Once we get a progressive coach hopefully that will change. Our most competent managers being also stuck in the past says it all.
 

BIGbadBOO4

Full Member
Joined
Apr 27, 2010
Messages
997
Location
Manchester
I been saying for ages we look like coaching, and a game plan is non existent. We need a long term vision and plan, stop hiring flavour of the month managers. Bring in fecking Director of football and a manager who is young, innovative and is 1st and foremost a coach with a style and a plan. And i don't think Poch is the answer.
 

soapythecat

Full Member
Joined
Jun 29, 2006
Messages
2,684
Location
Glasgow resident these days.
Players get in worse. Players that were getting better (Martial) looking average again.
Seen a stat yesterday showing how poor we are at attempts on goal - take out penalties and we are bottom quarter of league table for attempts.
We aren’t coached or set up well.
The club isn’t been run well, but the squad isn’t been coached or managed well at all. We reply on individual brilliance to win us games rather than a sound plan and teamwork. This can be changed by replacing Ole and his incompetent team.
 

red woppit

Full Member
Joined
Sep 21, 2017
Messages
1,143
Location
Buchebi
Supports
Northampton Town
Players aren’t being coached at all.

We rely on individual brilliance. Our side on paper is far better than it is - someone like Poch would make us a far better side.
That is absolute rubbish.
 

DavelinaJolie

Full Member
Joined
May 8, 2013
Messages
714
No such thing as a jinx. It's a coaching issue and a talent issue. It doesn't help that the people bringing players in seem to work at cross purposes to the coaching staff.

The lack of cohesion is the big issue.
 

flappyjay

Full Member
Joined
Feb 12, 2016
Messages
3,524
Not even man city just watch Brighton play and then watch us play then will you see the huge difference.
 

red woppit

Full Member
Joined
Sep 21, 2017
Messages
1,143
Location
Buchebi
Supports
Northampton Town
Players aren’t being coached at all.

We rely on individual brilliance. Our side on paper is far better than it is - someone like Poch would make us a far better side.
Rubbish. Of course players are coached, I wish people would stop coming up with these stupid comments.
We do have very good individuals, who do do come up with flashes of brilliance, but when we have the right balance in midfield then those flair players come into their own, we do not rely on just individual brilliance.
Poch would undoubtedly make United a better side than they are now, whether he can get us to the heights that we crave is another story. There are far more serious issues affecting this club than the manager/coach.
 

Lewnited

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Jan 27, 2017
Messages
26
I'm surprised there is even a debate haha, of course there is a coaching issue. Over the last 7 years, we have a bucket load of players that have looked significantly better pre or post (both?) United. Mata, Falcao, Di Maria, Depay, Schneiderlin, Blind, Lukaku and the list goes on...
Van Gaal and co. attempted to implement a system not suited to any of our players. Mourinho and co. have a history of emphasising team shape and organisation over player development. Solskjaer and co. leave a lot to be desired tactically, although I will say I have seen some good signs of development of our forwards over the last 18 months.
 

Adam-Utd

Part of first caf team to complete Destiny raid
Joined
Sep 10, 2010
Messages
26,939
Not even man city just watch Brighton play and then watch us play then will you see the huge difference.
Agreed. I personally think we place way too much emphasis on individuals.

When teams with average players can pass and move better than us and make smarter runs off the ball - you have to question why.

It's no surprise that players look good when they first join and actively get worse. I'm not sure exactly why this is, but I think United as a club are far too "friendly" and "family orientated".

Clubs like Chelsea, City are cut throat and if you don't perform like they want they'll replace you in an instance. Players know if they play badly here it doesn't matter, they've got 5 years on their contract at a huge wage.

We keep talking about the past and the Man United way and it just means nothing.
 

Lash

Full Member
Joined
May 3, 2012
Messages
6,063
Location
London
Supports
Millwall, Saint-Etienne
Its a mentality/ culture issue first and foremost. The bar for keeping your place in the squad is too low. A new player comes to a dressing room that does not push each other to the limits, does not demand the absolute best from one another.
If you hear the comments from our more successful signings under Fergie, all said that when they walked into the first training session they were surprised at the intensity and the level at which players were operating at. They quickly had to reach that level themselves or they would be out of the door. It seems the situation is polar opposite right now.
This is the big issue for me. No one has any real threat to their position. I just find it astounding that people think Ole and the coaching staff tactics are so rudimentary, with probably zero coaching qualifications and not to mention they have no idea what's even said behind closed doors, or being involved in training sessions.

A good example was given in a post earlier, Mourinho seems to be able to coach Spurs to better performances recently, but obviously it was his fault when we were playing dire football. Even quoting players doubting the credentials is just a farce, how about we doubt their credentials as top players? I'm not sure how some people are claiming Bruno is now "not the same player before lockdown". He's not even had a full season here, probably should work out what he can contribute in a full season first.
 

Nou_Camp99

Full Member
Joined
Apr 1, 2013
Messages
4,676
Players aren't coached at all yet....

1. Finished 3rd. If our players aren't coached god help the ones who finished below us.

2. We only lost 1 top 6 clash in the league last season. Incredible feat for a team that's 'not coached'

3. Beat Pep Guardiola three times in one season. Only 2nd team ever do manage that.

4. Beat Chelsea 3 times, took 4pts off Jose and beat Leicester home and away.


Our players have clearly been coached guy ffs. We've had some tremendous winning runs under this manager. The caretaker spell and end of January to July this year. Suppose they were flukes?

Our players have come back without a pre season game in most cases and it's cost us badly. I did say this to you all when I said we should throw the Europa League and nobody listened to me. Got laughed at. Not laughing now though.
 

VojjE

New Member
Newbie
Joined
May 19, 2016
Messages
95
I think it's interesting that people on here blame coaching - saying that it is unmodern and dated, or that our players aren't coached at all - with little actual insight as to what our coaching actually looks like, what regiments our players are on, which coaches do what (beyond what their titles might say), or how up to date coaches are with new methods or how often they take courses or seminars to learn new things.

Our results haven't been what we could have hoped, but blaming coaching with little to no substance behind those claims - even if it were to be the truth - doesn't seem very fair.

I'm sure Ole isn't perfectly pleased with our transfer dealings either, but he has at least stated the importance of improving our team with coaching and player development. Coaching does take time, especially with a squad as quilted as ours with many players from different managers. It's not an instant process getting a team to perform a managers ideas perfectly unless you have a very focused vision at the top, with sporting directions and transfers that follows that idea. Add the players and their mentality to it, their confidence and what's going on in their lives outside of the pitch as well and it's clear that things are more complex than what they could seem.

The question is if the club has the proper tools to assess what needs to be done and execute upon it, and if so then what is the club's timeframe for getting there? Can and will Ole meet his milestones before the board replaces him with someone they think can meet/exceed those expectations faster.
 

VP89

Pogba's biggest fan
Joined
Dec 6, 2015
Messages
16,303
Jose sacking was fair enough but the sheer stupidity to bring in an unqualified manager despite having what 11 years on his CV, means its not a jynx. Woodward was just a really dumb cnut.
 

Bestietom

Full Member
Joined
Dec 16, 2013
Messages
5,976
Location
Ireland
Harry Maguire was a better player when we bought him, than he is now. We can add Bruno, AWB, Pogba and James to that ever growing list. I was watching footage of AWB for Palace against Man City. He was attacking down the wing in their half. He was in City's box, getting crosses in. Now he won't cross the half-way line without getting the jitters. Maguire at Leicester was a dominating presence. When he came for a ball he always won it. He scored goals for Leicester. Even got 5 assists. He is way off that sort of form now. The player that Bruno was from January to March. He hasn't been near that since lockdown. Same with James. He was stretching teams with his pace. Away at the Ethihad last season, they couldn't handle him. Now he's a passenger. Pogba has had about 5 good games in 3 seasons. He was world class for Juve. We could go back to Sanchez, Lukaku, Di Maria...there is fundamentally something rotten at our club where players lose their level of performance, then get it back again as soon as they leave!

Why are we signing good players and then not getting the best out of them? Why is their confidence so low when they play for us. Where is the motivation? Where is the spark that we need to kick-start this team again?
Yes, there is definitely a coaching problem. Whoever is caoching our defence should be sacked.
 

Matt007a

Full Member
Joined
Jul 17, 2018
Messages
436
Part of being a top manager is knowing your own weaknesses. If OGS is a good man manager but an ordinary coach, that's not necessarily a problem. SAF was an incredible man manager but by no means a coaching genius. The main difference is that he recognised it and hired great coaches like McClaren and Queiroz and gave them a huge amount of responsibility in coaching the team. I'm sure SAF had input of his own, but he was in no way a Pep style manager who led everything himself.

We could go down the route of finding a manager who is a great coach, or OGS needs to see the signs that his team aren't up to that part of the job and hire people who are.
 

Fosu-Mens

Full Member
Joined
Apr 11, 2016
Messages
4,019
Location
Fred | 2019/20 Performances
The acadamy seems to improve the players there.

All the institutional knowledge among the coaches and staff left the club when Moyes brought in his own people. Many of the players improved their passing and first touch under LVG, but all these coaches where replaced by Mourinho and subsequently OGS and his coaches. No improvement in abilities has been visible. The players might have performed better than they did under Jose, but this could be down to a more positive environment.

So, if the players do not improve through training and coaching, then something is obviously not working. Why are they not replaced/getting more help? Well, the same is the case with Woody and Judge. Given that everyone is incompetent at their job, they cannot really rat one out can they? Not like I would rat out my neighbour to the Police for having a weedfarm if I had one myself would I?
 

redshaw

Full Member
Joined
Jul 17, 2015
Messages
4,955
Yes I believe so, a coaching/training sporting science issue as well as a casual nature around the club which then players resist hard training.

Bruno is one player that lasted the longest before succumbing. All players come here looking fit and fresh from other clubs then quickly fall off, some take weeks other 3-4 months. it's like they take performance de-enhancing drugs. Bruno is grimacing like the rest now.

I'm glad you mentioned Dan James performance at City last season, he linked up extremely well with Martial and Rashford, they were a very threatening front three for a good while, we had the link up working. That Dan James is still there and would surely be found again at Leeds. Bruno came in and sparked the link play again but now he's fallen away we're back to the poorly functioning attack.

Tony V turned into a brick shithouse and lost agility. Shaw, Rojo, Bastian and Lukaku all end up very large and slow. Lukaku and Evra go to another club and they find an issue with their body/diet we can't.
 
Last edited:

Murder on Zidane's Floor

You'd better not kill Giroud
Joined
Jun 11, 2015
Messages
5,762
I think the biggest issue is that under Ferguson, in the later years, we were less tactically focused and more reliant on individual moments and the huge confidence that SAF had instilled and built into the squad. We walked into 95% of matches, ten feet tall, knowing our roles and confident we would win (even when we played Park and O'Shea in the middle).

Now, this is not a dig at SAF not being a great tactician, he was.

But when he left, this confidence slowly ebbed and disappeared, players who never played under SAF joined, results worsened, doubt grew. But curiously, in my opinion, the lack of tactical onus stayed but what helped carry us (the confidence and winning mentality) left. So now, we look under coached, when we watch other teams that have pure tacticians in charge (Pep, Poch, Klopp) we look disjointed, not sure about our roles, no flow, no patterns of play or "routines" etc. Each player looks like an individual (sometimes brilliant ones) who have been put into a Sunday league team at the last minute. When it clicks (because of the talent) it looks good and we play some decent stuff. But more often than not, it looks like players who are just not sure and are playing one step at a time.

We need a culture reset at the club, which I have alluded to in other threads. My opinion is we need to choose a playstyle and stick with it and everything falls into that mold, managers we bring in, players we sign, etc and we do not change it. This will instill identity back into the club, this will instill direction into the club. So if we choose to do 352 for example, then we target the appropriate players, these players come in and learn our system, we don't bring in square pegs for round holes and expect it to work because they are good individually, it is a team sport after all.