Are we jinxed or is there a coaching issue at Manchester United

hobbers

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Players perform much better before they join us, and then much better after they leave us. That's become a consistent trend over the last 6 years or so.

The coaching is clearly sub par. Absent even.
 

ForeverRed1

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It’s coaching. You can’t explain how teams with lesser players are playing consistently better than us. Even on our run at the end of last season, we weren’t playing nice football consistently. Grinding out 1-0 wins etc and with the players we have that’s possible with individuals as good as we have.

I love ole but I’m not sure he’s going to get us to the levels we need.
 

united_99

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Coaching is an issue but not the only issue. Some players are that good that they perform irrespective of the system or manager. But we have failed to identify those players (who are good enough and who want to play for the club). We got it horribly wrong with the likes of Pogba and Di Maria.
RM, Chelsea and City have / had some players who have been consistently good with many different managers and systems. Silva and Aguero have been good with 3 different managers. There are several examples at Chelsea and RM as well.
While we need to improve our coaching, we also definitely need to buy more top level and intelligent players with good technical ability and tactical awareness (and less overhyped players).
Coaching, system and play style will keep changing every time a manager is sacked, however quality players would still make sure that at least a certain level of performances is still maintained.
 

Foxbatt

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There's a quote in the Athletic that seems apt to place in here:

The standard of training sessions is said to be “high and engaging” but there are some who look at Solskjaer’s record with Molde and Cardiff City and wonder whether there is a ceiling. One source close to the players says: “I must be clear, the players I speak to are never saying he’s a disaster. But they question whether he is a top, top coach. They are worried about how things spiral after a bad result, the momentum swings too dramatically. There is a feeling the team is too dependent on players in attack doing wonderful individual things.”
Absolutely correct. When a team loses all the players are looking at the coach to correct those mistakes. When individual player make a mistake and lose it is easy to be corrected as everyone knows what happened. But when it fails structurely then players do not know what to do and look for the coaches. This is what is happening at United now. They have no confidence that they can beat any top teams. They themselves would most probably see the analysis but I do not know how it is done at United. If they see they will so many mistakes. How is it corrected and this is where coaching comes in. It is pointless saying push up on match day if they do not practice during training.
If we want to press from the front, it is pointless to jog to do the pressing. It is also pointless for one man to press.
A team that has Pogba and Matic in midfield cannot press. It is better we forget about pressing for now. I saw the analysis of the Spurs game. Maguire and Bailly had no idea how to play as partners. Maguire is the one who normally pushes with Lindelof dropping back. Bailly was not dropping back. He is in a line with Maguire.
I really do not know what they do during training for them to be so shambolic during matches.
 

Bobcat

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Who are these rotten appels though? People said it was Sanchez and Lukaku so they are gone. He persisted with keeping Pogba so if he is the bad one then it is just stupid.
Maguire and AWB might be rotten too and he bought them. Not sure how Bruno is in the dressing room either.
Let's face it the big problem is OGS. He is not good enough. He increased the spirit and had a good run with us, but has not improved us playing as a unit or a team well enough.
He do not have a clue how to build a top culture or top team.
Hope he turns it around, but not having much faith left.
But how do you explain the dramatic drop in levels from June/July to now?

"Lets just change manager and everything will sort itself out". I've heard that one before
 

Sky1981

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The coaching issue is probably that all our coaches have tremendous knowledge but are too fecking nice!

We need some good old SAF ire. " Play like that again and you're dropped!" kind of coaching
Yeah... he'll be sacked once pogba comes crying, thrown under the bus etc.

Moyes was inept but he wasnt granted the respect as a manager since day 1
 

Web of Bissaka

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? Yeah, quality of coaching are inconsistent while mostly being consistently poor and not fitting to how United's best version of football is. LVG arguably had the best consistent coaching... for his intended system. Unfortunately it's a shit sleep-inducing rubbish system.

Moyes - coached players to play more crosses and they did. Also coached the players to play mediocre football and they did.

LVG - coaches players to be robotic and they did. Also telling players to think for themselves which is contradictory since any players that did that will get dropped soon after doing individual brilliance that helps the team win eg. Herrera and Falcao, etc, or get lambasted and coached further to be more robotic eg. Rashford.

Mou - coached the players to be more defensively organised and they did bar some who don't want to. Also letting the players to attack on their own creatively and they did. Stopped coaching and started to do more moaning in final season.

Ole - coached players to high press together and run more when he first takeover and they oh boy they sure did it well, then few months after he just stopped doing that, and being more laid back from then on letting his inexperienced young coaches and an old coach that is known not to be that good in coaching doing all the coaching... while sitting on his lap playing his ipad. I think he stop coaching the players now and just solely trust his players and coaches.
 

Stretender

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It's poor coaching basically. You don't give a big job like that to Someone to be learning of the job.

Ole is poor as a coach. His tactics are non existent and has the worst in game management of any manager I know.

Time to get a proper coach. Nagelsman or Allegri for me. I was against Allegri in the past but this team needs an experienced strong character who will not be bullied by the players.

There is no leadership in the team , I think what we are seeing now is a dressing room that does not believe in Ole's coaching. The way we played against Spurs, was like everyone was doing what they wanted to do rather than what the coach wanted them to do.

Someone like Nagelsman would command instant respect from the players because his methods are exciting and modern. He believes in what he says. I don't even think Ole believes in what he tells the players himself.

But our problems go far deeper than that. Woodward is the biggest one. As long as he is performing that role, we are doomed.
 
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UpWithRivers

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I go for jinxed. Bad coaching doesnt explain 4 managers getting it wrong. Some of them with huge reputations. Its Man Utd. How can there be no coaching. You cant coach out mistakes like Maguire, Bailly, De Gea, Pogba...the whole team make week in week out. Coaching doesnt explain every single signing turning out sht. Who could foresee Di Maria turning out sht. Pogba not performing although he's a world cup winner. Literally everyone thought Sanchez was a banked on winner. Too many of these things are outside of the norms of understanding.
Saying that a Director of Football could eradicate some of the problems just by following a single vision/plan and structure. Shifting around different types of managers and going for the wrong players has contributed to a lot of it.
 

stevoc

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So we have a serious coaching problem that has somehow been an ongoing issue under 4 different managers and coaching teams now. Interesting.

Great post.

Coaching is the buzz word in the Caf at the moment.

Everything can be improved by this mythical coaching, that apparently we are not doing.

It amuses me when I see posters stating things like “player x would be good if he was coached”. “If only we could actually coach the team property then we would be in xyz position”.
Yeah been seeing that everywhere on here recently, while some do have a point i doubt most could elaborate on what they actually mean.
 

wolvored

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I think the fact we were so successful under Fergie has also put a lot of pressure on those following in. Top 4 at least was the barometer stick to hit all who followed.
The stupidity of Moyes bringing a new brush in and sweeping all the coaching knowledge from a winning formula away and starting afresh when it was not needed was the catalyst.
VG was slowly getting an identity, but to the detriment of letting Fergie players go who could have helped this along and bringing in a load of players who either couldnt gel fast enough, or simply wasnt good enough or past it.
By the time Mourinho came all links with Fergie had practically gone and he was only going to achieve anything with getting the chequebook out.
Since Fergie no style in the way we play has been kept. We have an inheritance of players from the Moyes era, playing a slow Mata as a RM all the way through to Cavani. Overall there is no style or pattern in buying players as they were all bought with different tactics in mind.
We should learn from City (yes a bitter pill to swallow) how they have been run. All their managers from Mancini onwards were of a similar style and all their players are bought in already used to that style.
The answer is obvious. We need a DOF. Choose a style of play. Get the manager, coaches in who play that way and get the right players in to play that way. If it doesnt work under that manager then dont change the style, get a better manager to play that style of play. Eventually we will win the big prizes again.
 

rollingstoned1

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The most mind-blowing thing about the caf is how the feck does keyboard typing coaches know we're lacking in the coaching department??

Nobody here knows, 100% can guarantee that.

The difference between a well oiled machine team and Manchester United is, they don't have very good players, they had to rely on tactical brilliance to win games. You see Brighton playing well, can they win the league? no.

We rely on form, and individual brilliance. Tactics are there but not as important of getting the players on form. When our players on form, doesn't matter what tactics they use, we will win games.

Do they win 30 games with said tactics? No. Good style of play can win you games but not consistently, you teach a team to play one way, you won't win everytime.

That is more important to me than seeing a well oiled team passing for no reason like LVG's philosophy.
I actually wanted to ask in earnest, what coaches will actually do both for the team and the player? Most of the first team players they will work with will not be able to change their games appreciably or improve immeasurably in certain aspects depending on the level of talent/ positional experience. What do coaches do if the default simpleton position is they only watch and analyse videos when not arranging training cones or doing the whole pe stuff? Most of my knowledge comes from fm where appointing the right coach immediately sees improvement in specific attributes.
 
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So we have a serious coaching problem that has somehow been an ongoing issue under 4 different managers and coaching teams now. Interesting.



Yeah been seeing that everywhere on here recently, while some do have a point i doubt most could elaborate on what they actually mean.
And that’s my problem with it.

With ‘better coaching’ everything will magically be better.

It’s so vague, to be pointless.
 

stevoc

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And that’s my problem with it.

With ‘better coaching’ everything will magically be better.

It’s so vague, to be pointless.
I would say the reasons for our struggles are obviously complex and multiple and it definitely can't mostly boil down to one reason like ''bad coaching''. As if Mourinho and Van Gaal don't know how to coach teams. Or that they both made similar mistakes with their coaching methods that for some inexplicable Solskjaer and his team have continued.

While poor coaching may be true to some extent with Solskjaer, its certainly possible given his inexperience at the top level. I suspect it's just a buzz phrase that has rose its head due to the belief from some sections of the fan base that Solskjaer and his coaches don't have a clue what they're doing. Which is also where this PE teacher stuff came from.
 

He'sRaldo

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I think the main reason we've struggled for so long is we haven't hired a coach proven to be good at breaking down buses. Nowadays smaller teams are much more encouraged to play Man Utd, park a bus, and come away with something.

If we hire a specialist in that area who is very good at getting goals against those sort of teams, then the opposition will have to give it a go and leave some space, making things easier for us. And even if they don't, the three points would be no problem.

So the jinx has basically been targeting the wrong profile of coach. A coach used to facing parked buses in a top league would be great.
 

Sparky Rhiwabon

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Can anyone think of any player who we have added value to in recent years? i.e. bought them and improved them such that we could sell them for more than we bought them for, if we chose to (adjusting for inflation)?
 

JPRouve

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Can anyone think of any player who we have added value to in recent years? i.e. bought them and improved them such that we could sell them for more than we bought them for, if we chose to (adjusting for inflation)?
Maybe Martial?
 

amolbhatia50k

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I don't get the point of these questions? So only the Manchester United staff are only allowed to talk? It is blatantly obvious that teams with managers who coach well perform better consistently, whereas teams that rely on individual brilliance always has ups and downs.
No if a team looks poorly coached you should definitely not conclude that the coaching of the team is lacking. Instead keep your cards close to your chest holding a "feck knows" view until you're invited to the training ground to form a propah view.
 

Greck

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It's been said but Ole could do with more coaches with tactical acumen to add some automation to our play. How much wisdom can a young team really have to be expected to just go out and bring home the W every week in an open system. Doesn't help when the team 'vets' are Pogba and Maguire
 

TrustInJanuzaj

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Under Mourinho I would have agreed but I don’t think this has been true under Ole so far. Most of the players have improved their past form, again this seems like yet another thread kneejerking on the back of a bad start which can be placed almost entirely down to our awful pre season.
 

ThatsGreat

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Yes, you're jinxed. Paying for all the good luck under Ferguson.
 

POF

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So we have a serious coaching problem that has somehow been an ongoing issue under 4 different managers and coaching teams now. Interesting.

Yeah been seeing that everywhere on here recently, while some do have a point i doubt most could elaborate on what they actually mean.
Completely agree. It will stay with Ole throughout his tenure at United no matter what he does. It was even levelled at Fergie in fairness.

But, it's absolute nonsense. The team is in poor form now but the progress and improvement last season was clear. Martial, Rashford, Fred and McTominay had career best seasons last season.

Greenwood's integration into the team has been fantastic as has been his progression. Similar but to a lesser extent with Williams. The speed that Bruno settled into the team shows a well drilled structure. Matic's resurgence after he looked finished was also credit to the coaching staff.

Maguire and Wan Bissaka had good first seasons.

Why do some players play better at Leicester or Crystal Palace than they do at United? Because it's easier. Maguire made plenty of mistakes at Leicester but nobody cared. He does it at United and it's front page news. Wan Bissaka is a strong defender so playing in a defensive team like Palace suits him better.

The other challenge is the pressure of playing at United. Some relish it (like Bruno). Some can't handle it. That has nothing to do with coaching.

One thing I will criticise Ole for is how he's allowed the disastrous transfer window to impact the confidence of the players. History shows you expect the club to let him down. He needed to be far more positive and consistently reinforce the huge strides the club made in the second half of last season.
 

iHicksy

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Well since there's no such thing as being "Jinxed" then obviously it's a coaching problem.
 

M16Red

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Part of being a top manager is knowing your own weaknesses. If OGS is a good man manager but an ordinary coach, that's not necessarily a problem. SAF was an incredible man manager but by no means a coaching genius. The main difference is that he recognised it and hired great coaches like McClaren and Queiroz and gave them a huge amount of responsibility in coaching the team. I'm sure SAF had input of his own, but he was in no way a Pep style manager who led everything himself.

We could go down the route of finding a manager who is a great coach, or OGS needs to see the signs that his team aren't up to that part of the job and hire people who are.
This, Carrick while a good player has only just started coaching yet we seem to believe that he a good enough coach for a club like man utd.

Mckenna 32 years old, ex Tottenham player and just started coaching again has the experience to coach us?

Even in work life there is a reason you have Junior and senior levels - would anyone say these guys are senior level coaches?... For me no.

Mangers don't just come in by themselves they bring in a team, Zeljko Buvac was with Klopp 17 years, Rui Filipe was with Jose 17 as well and was regarded as the main reason to his success.

I also think that players influence the group as well.. Pogba is apparently highly influential, does that affect Bruno's influence on a flip side? Personally I would have tried to shift Pogba this window.
 

Paul_Scholes18

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But how do you explain the dramatic drop in levels from June/July to now?

"Lets just change manager and everything will sort itself out". I've heard that one before
I don't know. Other teams figuring out our basic tactics? Fitness? Mentality? Key players form?
We had bad games near the end too and some luck at times. I think one reason we had a good run was super easy fixtures.
Sheffield, Brighton, Bournemouth, Villa in a row.
Pogba and Bruno looked motivated and in decent form as well.
We often got penalties that helped us out too.
 

stevoc

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Completely agree. It will stay with Ole throughout his tenure at United no matter what he does. It was even levelled at Fergie in fairness.

But, it's absolute nonsense. The team is in poor form now but the progress and improvement last season was clear. Martial, Rashford, Fred and McTominay had career best seasons last season.

Greenwood's integration into the team has been fantastic as has been his progression. Similar but to a lesser extent with Williams. The speed that Bruno settled into the team shows a well drilled structure. Matic's resurgence after he looked finished was also credit to the coaching staff.

Maguire and Wan Bissaka had good first seasons.

Why do some players play better at Leicester or Crystal Palace than they do at United? Because it's easier. Maguire made plenty of mistakes at Leicester but nobody cared. He does it at United and it's front page news. Wan Bissaka is a strong defender so playing in a defensive team like Palace suits him better.

The other challenge is the pressure of playing at United. Some relish it (like Bruno). Some can't handle it. That has nothing to do with coaching.

One thing I will criticise Ole for is how he's allowed the disastrous transfer window to impact the confidence of the players. History shows you expect the club to let him down. He needed to be far more positive and consistently reinforce the huge strides the club made in the second half of last season.
Yeah i've been surprised by all the negativity on here and the fans in general this season. Obviously not getting Sancho was disappointing and we haven't started well but as you say clear progress was made last year. I think a lot of people are just way too reactionary and/or have short memories, in fact i know people are like that which is no doubt where the phrase ''you're only as good as your last game came from''.

The second half of last season has been the most enjoyable period for me as a United fan since Fergie retired even though we didn't win anything. The football was good, we were scoring goals, winning games and looking like a proper team again. I can see the beginnings of a very good side in the current squad.
 

stevoc

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I think the main reason we've struggled for so long is we haven't hired a coach proven to be good at breaking down buses. Nowadays smaller teams are much more encouraged to play Man Utd, park a bus, and come away with something.

If we hire a specialist in that area who is very good at getting goals against those sort of teams, then the opposition will have to give it a go and leave some space, making things easier for us. And even if they don't, the three points would be no problem.

So the jinx has basically been targeting the wrong profile of coach. A coach used to facing parked buses in a top league would be great.
Any suggestions?
 

Sparky Rhiwabon

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This, Carrick while a good player has only just started coaching yet we seem to believe that he a good enough coach for a club like man utd.

Mckenna 32 years old, ex Tottenham player and just started coaching again has the experience to coach us?

Even in work life there is a reason you have Junior and senior levels - would anyone say these guys are senior level coaches?... For me no.

Mangers don't just come in by themselves they bring in a team, Zeljko Buvac was with Klopp 17 years, Rui Filipe was with Jose 17 as well and was regarded as the main reason to his success.

I also think that players influence the group as well.. Pogba is apparently highly influential, does that affect Bruno's influence on a flip side? Personally I would have tried to shift Pogba this window.
And Ole has only low level management experience himself. No coincidence that Everton are doing so much better now with Ancelotti
 

Andycoleno9

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Fans these days underestimate coaching so so much. Lets just give world class players to manager or he is fecked. And even when world class player plays like shit, then it is on player.
Coach is the most important person in club. If you have good coach he will make players better and find solution how to best use what he has.
 

fps

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Neither, the team needs a proper balance of quality and energy in central midfield and doesn't have it.
 

Handsome Devil

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The sad thing is, Ole could pop into the matchday thread on here at any time and cherry pick any of a thousand articulate posters who KNOWS exactly how United should be coached. :)
 

Foxbatt

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The main reason why lots of people say it's a coaching problem is because of what happens on the match day. Individually players may get better but collectively as a team they need to be better and play as a team.
1. Look at our games so far. We don't press. Even if we press it's one or two players trying a slow press. A slow press is much worse than no press.
2. Look at the amount of space we always leave open. Between our defense and our midfield and our midfield and our forwards.
3. Other teams have sussed us that we shift to a long ball once we gain possession and try to get away Rashford or Martial. ( Look at Son holding up Martial on a counter attack chance).
Our midfield players and forwards don't do that and our defense gets overloaded. ( Look at the last Spurs goal where Pogba just let him go. In the previous matches both Greenwood and Bruno have let them go and we have conceded goals.).
4. Out set pieces have been terrible. Every one knows that it's going to be a long one for Maguire. Why don't we have any variations?
I really do wonder if there is an analysis team at United? I know other clubs have top people and Villas Boss was a top analyst before his coaching started.
To me the way we play so badly is due to coaching.
The more this goes on the more I realise that Jose was right. We should have sold Pogba even then. He only brings value added quality to a team that's on top. Not to a team that's trying to get to the top.
 

Mr PG

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Coaching is an issue but not the only issue. Some players are that good that they perform irrespective of the system or manager. But we have failed to identify those players (who are good enough and who want to play for the club). We got it horribly wrong with the likes of Pogba and Di Maria.
RM, Chelsea and City have / had some players who have been consistently good with many different managers and systems. Silva and Aguero have been good with 3 different managers. There are several examples at Chelsea and RM as well.
While we need to improve our coaching, we also definitely need to buy more top level and intelligent players with good technical ability and tactical awareness (and less overhyped players).
Coaching, system and play style will keep changing every time a manager is sacked, however quality players would still make sure that at least a certain level of performances is still maintained.
Excellent post. We have wasted a lot of money and even players like Martial we have persisted with for so long 4-5 yrs when other clubs would have moved them on. I don't rate Ole as a coach but his recruitment has been good so far. Much better than we have been used to. People are complaining about summer recruitment but this is one of my favorite transfer windows so far. Every player we have bought is good on the ball, technically gifted and wants the ball. Many of our players just aren't good in tight spaces and struggle to make good use of the ball. People wanted us to pay for Sancho but we will never build a proper squad to match the like of PSG/ Bayern by paying 80m for Maguire/ 50m for AWB and 106m for Sancho. Sancho is a very good player but wingers have limited influence and even his impact for England has been limited. Amad Traore is at the same level or better than Sancho was 2 yrs ago and taking a punt on him allowed us to have money for Pellistri, Cavani, Telles and Kambwala. I am absolutely chuffed at these buys.
 

Mr PG

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The main reason why lots of people say it's a coaching problem is because of what happens on the match day. Individually players may get better but collectively as a team they need to be better and play as a team.
1. Look at our games so far. We don't press. Even if we press it's one or two players trying a slow press. A slow press is much worse than no press.
2. Look at the amount of space we always leave open. Between our defense and our midfield and our midfield and our forwards.
3. Other teams have sussed us that we shift to a long ball once we gain possession and try to get away Rashford or Martial. ( Look at Son holding up Martial on a counter attack chance).
Our midfield players and forwards don't do that and our defense gets overloaded. ( Look at the last Spurs goal where Pogba just let him go. In the previous matches both Greenwood and Bruno have let them go and we have conceded goals.).
4. Out set pieces have been terrible. Every one knows that it's going to be a long one for Maguire. Why don't we have any variations?
I really do wonder if there is an analysis team at United? I know other clubs have top people and Villas Boss was a top analyst before his coaching started.
To me the way we play so badly is due to coaching.
The more this goes on the more I realise that Jose was right. We should have sold Pogba even then. He only brings value added quality to a team that's on top. Not to a team that's trying to get to the top.
Pogba should be sold ...period. United was a much better balanced midfield with Fred, McT and Bruno. Ole is forced to shoehorn him into the team and he can be brilliant on his day(against lesser opposition). After 4 years time to conclude the experiment. He just isn't cut for a physical league where you need a high work-rate etc.
People don't realize his first choice was always city but Guardiola wasn't interested he said smaller players are usually better especially in the midfield.
 

Highfather_24

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People wanted us to pay for Sancho but we will never build a proper squad to match the like of PSG/ Bayern by paying 80m for Maguire/ 50m for AWB and 106m for Sancho. Sancho is a very good player but wingers have limited influence and even his impact for England has been limited. Amad Traore is at the same level or better than Sancho was 2 yrs ago and taking a punt on him allowed us to have money for Pellistri, Cavani, Telles and Kambwala. I am absolutely chuffed at these buys.
We only went for Traore because we failed to get Sancho. So its not a grand plan by design, but a last minute buy after chasing Sancho till deadline day. Also lets not forget we also tried to loan Dembele and Sarr.
 

He'sRaldo

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Any suggestions?
The best that I've seen recently is Thomas Tuchel, he's better than even Klopp in that regard IMO.

Klopp had to learn when coming to England that pressing isn't everything, and I suspect most German managers who come here will go through that learning curve if they ever manage a big club where there's no space to attack. Tuchel however had that lesson from the off, his Dortmund team was extremely good at breaking down buses. He also works well with star players and hasn't hesitated to criticize upper management in the past, which would be a dream for a lot of Utd fans.

I think the big thing to be wary about for us now is hiring managers who overachieve with smaller teams where the opposition give them more space and less respect. Such managers can be quite the gamble as there's no guarantee they'll learn on the job well enough or quickly enough, and they may end up falling short when faced with our unique challenges.