Are we jinxed or is there a coaching issue at Manchester United

Bilbo

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Team selection and tactics work with one another though. A manager has to adapt his tactics to the players he got. If Ole wanted his team to push forward then he should have signed CBs who have the pace not to be caught with their proverbial pants down during a quick counter. That's certainly can't be done with Lindelof and Maguire.

Regaroding your second sentence you might have failed to see the word IF
Do you know how many goals we conceded from counter attacks last season compared to others?
 

Bobcat

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Recruitment is bad, tactics seem basic, new signings seem to do well when we sign them only for their performance to plummet once our coaches had time to work with them etc. Also note that we had 5 former managers as Sir Alex's no 2 with Carlos Querioz, Walter Smith and Archie Knox being far more experienced then most of our coaches bar Phelan. That's quite concerning considering that Ole need to surround himself with far more experience then Sir Alex ever did.
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Thats a bit unfair though. Maguire and AWB were both solid last year, Bruno was on fire when he got here but i dont think it would be realistic that he kept up that kind of level. Shaw was great until he broke his leg and has struggled with fitness/injuries since. I think fans in general tend to overrate new signings. Unless they watch A LOT of football, i suspect most of the knowledge people have of others players are highlights, youtube and whenever that player has played vs United

The players that has turned out to be complete disasters like Sanchez and Di Maria ultimately failed because they were unhappy and did not want to be here.
 

NoLogo

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Thats a bit unfair though. Maguire and AWB were both solid last year, Bruno was on fire when he got here but i dont think it would be realistic that he kept up that kind of level. Shaw was great until he broke his leg and has struggled with fitness/injuries since. I think fans in general tend to overrate new signings. Unless they watch A LOT of football, i suspect most of the knowledge people have of others players are highlights, youtube and whenever that player has played vs United

The players that has turned out to be complete disasters like Sanchez and Di Maria ultimately failed because they were unhappy and did not want to be here.
Shitty training could also contribute to that. I mean it's not only players for other teams who come here and get worse, funnily enough it's our own youth players as well. So I think we could even make a distinction that not all coaching is bad it's just mainly the first team coaching that gets things somewhat wrong. Maybe too much emphasis on bulking up and too little on training actually football skills and tactical insight?
 

devilish

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Do you know how many goals we conceded from counter attacks last season compared to others?
I don't care really. Playing such duo in a high line is asking for trouble especially when you consider the players we got around them. It was only a matter of time before such flaw was exploited
 

Bobcat

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Shitty training could also contribute to that. I mean it's not only players for other teams who come here and get worse, funnily enough it's our own youth players as well. So I think we could even make a distinction that not all coaching is bad it's just mainly the first team coaching that gets things somewhat wrong. Maybe too much emphasis on bulking up and too little on training actually football skills and tactical insight?
But with youth players its hard to say though, because a lot of them will look like future world beaters a little while and get touted as the next big thing, only to fizzle out into mediocrity. For example Januzaj was thought to be future world class at some point.

Greenwood has not turned to shit since he joined the first team and neither did Rashford. Granted, the latter has been poor since his injury, but he produced his best form under Ole and by then he had been in the first team quite a while. McTomminay i dont really think has what it takes to become a top player. I love his attitude, but i have never seen anything that suggests he belongs in the first XI of a club that wants to win major trophies.
 

He'sRaldo

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And yet our results against the best teams in our league so far have been very good. How do you explain that? There's enough of a sample size there to rule out a freak run of luck.
I'll bounce that back to you. What would you extrapolate from us being fairly good against top teams in the league, but not that good against lower teams?
 

Bilbo

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I don't care really. Playing such duo in a high line is asking for trouble especially when you consider the players we got around them. It was only a matter of time before such flaw was exploited
You should care if you are calling something out as a tactical issue. Our defence were fine last season. 3rd fewest goals conceded. It wasn't the problem.
 

Bilbo

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I'll bounce that back to you. What would you extrapolate from us being fairly good against top teams in the league, but not that good against lower teams?
Well I'd still like to get your take on my question. If people are so hellbent on calling out the mgmt staff for being inept tactically, its a key point of discussion surely. He is holding his own and then some against the best. Why is that?

To answer yours we struggled to break down teams because we couldn't transition well enough between the midfield and attack. It took us too long to get the ball forwards so it was easy for teams to stay organised against us. That was a lack of personnel. Lingard and Pereira were not good enough, and Mata wasn't mobile enough to play there.

Ole, the poor tactician, signed a player to solve all of those issues. We instantly looked a much better side and now he has signed another strong link player to cover us from our biggest vulnerability, which was an injury to that player.

Unfortunately the agenda now goes that Ole, with all of his coaching issues, has been saved by that player, even though he signed him to do exactly what he has been doing for the team.
 

Idxomer

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I'll bounce that back to you. What would you extrapolate from us being fairly good against top teams in the league, but not that good against lower teams?
It’s about tactics and matchups, we were bad matchup for other top teams in the 1st half of the season and vice versa against lower teams where many of the games were close affairs that could go either way.
 

devilish

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You should care if you are calling something out as a tactical issue. Our defence were fine last season. 3rd fewest goals conceded. It wasn't the problem.
And as said our goal conceding was not that impressive when compared to previous seasons. It was better then the year before when our dressing room imploded but it was worse then the two previous seasons. That is underwhelming considering we spent 130m on 2 defenders

This year we conceded 11 goals. That's a major concern
 

devilish

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'

Thats a bit unfair though. Maguire and AWB were both solid last year, Bruno was on fire when he got here but i dont think it would be realistic that he kept up that kind of level. Shaw was great until he broke his leg and has struggled with fitness/injuries since. I think fans in general tend to overrate new signings. Unless they watch A LOT of football, i suspect most of the knowledge people have of others players are highlights, youtube and whenever that player has played vs United

The players that has turned out to be complete disasters like Sanchez and Di Maria ultimately failed because they were unhappy and did not want to be here.
There is no denying that AWB, Maguire, James and Bruno started well only for their performance to dip later on. Even stats support that
 

Bilbo

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And as said our goal conceding was not that impressive when compared to previous seasons. It was better then the year before when our dressing room imploded but it was worse then the two previous seasons. That is underwhelming considering we spent 130m on 2 defenders

This year we conceded 11 goals. That's a major concern
It was less impressive than a Mourinho team. That isn't a surprise. He has a not-concede philosophy to the game. Compared to the rest of the league it was very good.

This season yes. Poor start. Its not that much of an outlier though. Liverpool have shipped 13. Chelsea 9. City let in 5 at home. Its a mental start to a weird season that was tough to prepare for, particularly so for those of us that went deep in Europe. If we can win our next two we'll be right in the mix.

I'm not sure you really know what you're upset about to be honest. I think you might just want to be upset.
 

He'sRaldo

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To answer yours we struggled to break down teams because we couldn't transition well enough between the midfield and attack. It took us too long to get the ball forwards so it was easy for teams to stay organised against us. That was a lack of personnel. Lingard and Pereira were not good enough, and Mata wasn't mobile enough to play there.
I think you've highlighted one of the main gripes about Ole. If you don't have any no.10 that's good enough, then why play with a no. 10? Especially when you have a player who's world class creatively in the squad, and you simply need a slight midfield change to push him further forward.

It makes no sense playing Pogba behind Lingard/Pereira, and then saying there's no creativity in the squad. Making use of your squad to the fullest of their abilities is usually a defining trait of a top manager.

Ole, the poor tactician, signed a player to solve all of those issues. We instantly looked a much better side and now he has signed another strong link player to cover us from our biggest vulnerability, which was an injury to that player.

Unfortunately the agenda now goes that Ole, with all of his coaching issues, has been saved by that player, even though he signed him to do exactly what he has been doing for the team.
And this goes back to what I just said. If the only way we can improve is to sign a player, that's not really a solid defence against allegations of coaching issues.
 

He'sRaldo

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Well I'd still like to get your take on my question. If people are so hellbent on calling out the mgmt staff for being inept tactically, its a key point of discussion surely. He is holding his own and then some against the best. Why is that?
Depends on what you mean; when you said tactically, I assumed you meant coaching which is the topic of this thread. In terms of overall gameplan and tactics, I think Ole was quite good last season. He's setup well to nullify teams and to dominate games as well, and sometimes it works very well. It's when the details get more and more minute that I think he struggles to reach the level of the best in the world, and that's what I alluded to in my initial post.


Well I'd still like to get your take on my question.
Essentially, I'd say the less space there is for us to attack, the more Ole struggles. Now that is true for most coaches, but the degree to which they struggle separates those who can beat all the smaller teams and win the title, from those who flatter to deceive.

Usually this is a learning curve for coaches to overcome when their team overperforms, or when they take over a big team where most opponents sit back. It remains to be seen if Ole can overcome this hurdle, but so far he hasn't had a good record with it.
 

Bilbo

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I think you've highlighted one of the main gripes about Ole. If you don't have any no.10 that's good enough, then why play with a no. 10? Especially when you have a player who's world class creatively in the squad, and you simply need a slight midfield change to push him further forward.

It makes no sense playing Pogba behind Lingard/Pereira, and then saying there's no creativity in the squad. Making use of your squad to the fullest of their abilities is usually a defining trait of a top manager.


And this goes back to what I just said. If the only way we can improve is to sign a player, that's not really a solid defence against allegations of coaching issues.
It wasn't even about having a number 10. No matter what formation he would have played we still struggled with the transition to attack.


Regarding your final point:

Do you think Liverpool would be the team they are if they hadn't signed Van Dijk, or Mane, or Salah? Surely someone as accomplished as Klopp could have coached the other players better.

Couldn't someone as accomplished as Pep have coached his team not to miss Kompany as badly as they clearly did last season? They still had Stones. Otamendi. Laporte. Why didn't he simply coach them to be better?

Why do managers ever sign players. Surely by your logic its just a concession that they aren't skilled enough as a coach to manage with what they have
 

He'sRaldo

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It wasn't even about having a number 10. No matter what formation he would have played we still struggled with the transition to attack.
Why is that?

Regarding your final point:

Do you think Liverpool would be the team they are if they hadn't signed Van Dijk, or Mane, or Salah? Surely someone as accomplished as Klopp could have coached the other players better.

Couldn't someone as accomplished as Pep have coached his team not to miss Kompany as badly as they clearly did last season? They still had Stones. Otamendi. Laporte. Why didn't he simply coach them to be better?

Why do managers ever sign players. Surely by your logic its just a concession that they aren't skilled enough as a coach to manage with what they have
I agree that sometimes signing a player is the only way, if you lack that specific quality in the squad. But that's not what you point to when people talk about coaching issues.

With that said, comparisons with Klopp and Pep do Ole no favours. Especially regarding Klopp and player improvement.
 
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svn

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It wasn't even about having a number 10. No matter what formation he would have played we still struggled with the transition to attack.


Regarding your final point:

Do you think Liverpool would be the team they are if they hadn't signed Van Dijk, or Mane, or Salah? Surely someone as accomplished as Klopp could have coached the other players better.

Couldn't someone as accomplished as Pep have coached his team not to miss Kompany as badly as they clearly did last season? They still had Stones. Otamendi. Laporte. Why didn't he simply coach them to be better?

Why do managers ever sign players. Surely by your logic its just a concession that they aren't skilled enough as a coach to manage with what they have
I don't have the patience for most of the morons on this forum, but this is such a good post I couldn't help but comment. Absolutely spot on.
 

bondsname

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It's that damn Chevrolet logo that holds us back, ever since 2014 we haven't felt like a United team and I blame the chevrolet logo.

As soon as we abolish that ugly piece of trash sponsor and replace with an easy on the eyes, white logo, we'll bounce right back to the top. You'll see..
 

Bobcat

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There is no denying that AWB, Maguire, James and Bruno started well only for their performance to dip later on. Even stats support that
Bruno was bound to get a dip, those numbers he produced when he first got here was otherworldly. Maguire and AWB was two of our most consistent performers last season, from beginning to end, neither of them were spectacular but both were solid thorough the season. Now this season, AWB and especially Maguire have started horribly, but blaming that on coaching considering the circumstances seems a bit far fetched

James i agree had plummeted since a bright start, but i think thats a case of him over performing in the start and him just reverting back to his true level later and besides it was not like James was tearing up the PL before he got here and then turned to shit. He was a cheap gamble that (by the looks of it) wont turn out good

Now we had a couple of players that were great elsewhere and turned to shit here. Kagawa, Miki, Sanchez, Di Maria on the top of my head, but i honestly think those are down to other circumstances than simply coaching
 

devilish

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It was less impressive than a Mourinho team. That isn't a surprise. He has a not-concede philosophy to the game. Compared to the rest of the league it was very good.

This season yes. Poor start. Its not that much of an outlier though. Liverpool have shipped 13. Chelsea 9. City let in 5 at home. Its a mental start to a weird season that was tough to prepare for, particularly so for those of us that went deep in Europe. If we can win our next two we'll be right in the mix.

I'm not sure you really know what you're upset about to be honest. I think you might just want to be upset.
It was less impressive despite the defence lacking the 130m investment which Ole's defence enjoyed. Also note that in 2016-2017 United won the Europa league while in 2017-2018 United came second. Those must be considered more successful seasons to last season were we ended up trophyless and 3rd.

I am not upset at all. I think we can both sustain an adult discussion with no feeling attached whatsoever.
 

devilish

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Bruno was bound to get a dip, those numbers he produced when he first got here was otherworldly. Maguire and AWB was two of our most consistent performers last season, from beginning to end, neither of them were spectacular but both were solid thorough the season. Now this season, AWB and especially Maguire have started horribly, but blaming that on coaching considering the circumstances seems a bit far fetched

James i agree had plummeted since a bright start, but i think thats a case of him over performing in the start and him just reverting back to his true level later and besides it was not like James was tearing up the PL before he got here and then turned to shit. He was a cheap gamble that (by the looks of it) wont turn out good

Now we had a couple of players that were great elsewhere and turned to shit here. Kagawa, Miki, Sanchez, Di Maria on the top of my head, but i honestly think those are down to other circumstances than simply coaching
Maguire and AWB's dip in performance started after the lockdown ended. Di Maria's performance dipped after that burglary at his house. Rumours say that he clashed with LVG. Kagawa, Miki and Sanchez were dog shit with us from day 1. That has nothing to do with coaching.
 

golden_blunder

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Also find that interesting.
The way I see it, if you want to play with a high line, you'd want a back line that are good one versus one. I mean, that's bound to happen when you have most of the possession and play higher up the pitch. I would rate wan-Bissaka and Shaw as being good one v one (although both has been out of form lately), but they're often higher up when we get countered on. The same goes for playing out from the back. Maguire and Lindelöf, at times, have a good pass in them, but they're not particularly comfortable on the ball when being pressed. And they're not mobile enough to create space for others. Matic and Pogba seems comfortable on the ball, but both are to slow and take to many touches. Look at the difference when Carrick or Scholes used to receive the ball and get pressed. They both knew where the press was coming from and they already knew what to do with the ball. After they'd passed the ball on, they would moved into a new position, ready to receive the ball again.
Good post
 

Bilbo

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Why is that?


I agree that sometimes signing a player is the only way, if you lack that specific quality in the squad. But that's not what you point to when people talk about coaching issues.

With that said, comparisons with Klopp and Pep do Ole no favours. Especially regarding Klopp and player improvement.
Of course not, but in this case I used those two to illustrate that even the very best use recruitment as the major tool for improving their teams.

I think there are various forms of coaching. Van Gaal overcoached the team. Front to back he wanted to control their decision making. I think Ole wants United to play the way we did under Ferguson. Fast football. Forward passes wherever possible. Much more Klopp than Pep. Obviously its far more nuanced than that but that's where it goes beyond the level of understanding that us mere mortals possess.
 

golden_blunder

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But with youth players its hard to say though, because a lot of them will look like future world beaters a little while and get touted as the next big thing, only to fizzle out into mediocrity. For example Januzaj was thought to be future world class at some point.

Greenwood has not turned to shit since he joined the first team and neither did Rashford. Granted, the latter has been poor since his injury, but he produced his best form under Ole and by then he had been in the first team quite a while. McTomminay i dont really think has what it takes to become a top player. I love his attitude, but i have never seen anything that suggests he belongs in the first XI of a club that wants to win major trophies.
I thought that in our good run last season he really stood up to be counted and looked like he was making progress. Hasn’t hit the same form since lockdown.

i do think that there is a place in the squad for players like him though. Fergies squads always had a few players like him. You don’t win leagues just with a bunch of stars, you need grafters too but key is getting them all to gel together in a cohesive unit (see Henderson and Milner at Liverpool).
 

He'sRaldo

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Of course not, but in this case I used those two to illustrate that even the very best use recruitment as the major tool for improving their teams.

I think there are various forms of coaching. Van Gaal overcoached the team. Front to back he wanted to control their decision making. I think Ole wants United to play the way we did under Ferguson. Fast football. Forward passes wherever possible. Much more Klopp than Pep. Obviously its far more nuanced than that but that's where it goes beyond the level of understanding that us mere mortals possess.
Haha that's fair enough.

As you mentioned there are various styles and levels of coaching. Van Gaal 'overcoached' his team, which to me simply means prioritizing his own system over the qualities of his players, save a few like Martial, Blind, and Smalling. Teams with managers who do the opposite don't look overcoached, since their decision-making would be much more natural and based on the players' qualities.

In the same vein, I think Ole is on the other side of the spectrum where he allows the players freedom, but the framework isn't solid enough to compensate. Basically the opposite of Van Gaal. And it's this loose framework and lack of minute detail that leads some to conclude that we're currently 'undercoached'. The same way the rigid and unnatural actions of the players under LVG made you conclude that the players were then overcoached.

The challenge for Ole now is developing a solid framework where the players' individual qualities can show, and striking the balance between freedom and framework. But that's a world class challenge to overcome. If he somehow does manage to do it, he will indeed be the ideal manager; unfortunately it's not looking likely thus far.
 

Bilbo

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Haha that's fair enough.

As you mentioned there are various styles and levels of coaching. Van Gaal 'overcoached' his team, which to me simply means prioritizing his own system over the qualities of his players, save a few like Martial, Blind, and Smalling. Teams with managers who do the opposite don't look overcoached, since their decision-making would be much more natural and based on the players' qualities.

In the same vein, I think Ole is on the other side of the spectrum where he allows the players freedom, but the framework isn't solid enough to compensate. Basically the opposite of Van Gaal. And it's this loose framework and lack of minute detail that leads some to conclude that we're currently 'undercoached'. The same way the rigid and unnatural actions of the players under LVG made you conclude that the players were then overcoached.

The challenge for Ole now is developing a solid framework where the players' individual qualities can show, and striking the balance between freedom and framework. But that's a world class challenge to overcome. If he somehow does manage to do it, he will indeed be the ideal manager; unfortunately it's not looking likely thus far.
No I don't agree with that. Van Gaal being at one end of that spectrum doesn't put Ole at the other end of it. For me our team has a solid enough framework to it. There will always be improvisation required in the final third, and often players need to solve these problems themselves, but since we integrated Bruno into that framework we've had no problem getting the ball into the opponents area to create chances
 

Foxbatt

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We still have a coaching issue. We have the quality of players to thrash some teams that don't have the quality of players we have.
 

He'sRaldo

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No I don't agree with that. Van Gaal being at one end of that spectrum doesn't put Ole at the other end of it. For me our team has a solid enough framework to it. There will always be improvisation required in the final third, and often players need to solve these problems themselves, but since we integrated Bruno into that framework we've had no problem getting the ball into the opponents area to create chances
I disagree. I don't think there are enough automations to reliably get points against most teams, especially those that sit back. Even if we rely on the players to create space in the final 3rd, they will need something to fall back on, and you see most top teams have this. We don't.

We're also not solid and compact enough in our defensive phases. This means our pressing is usually ineffective in the 1st phase, and our defensive movements are often inefficient and energy consuming.

These issues point to a framework that's not solid enough to reliably get enough points to win the big trophies.
 

Bilbo

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I disagree. I don't think there are enough automations to reliably get points against most teams, especially those that sit back. Even if we rely on the players to create space in the final 3rd, they will need something to fall back on, and you see most top teams have this. We don't.

We're also not solid and compact enough in our defensive phases. This means our pressing is usually ineffective in the 1st phase, and our defensive movements are often inefficient and energy consuming.

These issues point to a framework that's not solid enough to reliably get enough points to win the big trophies.
Well since Bruno has come in to provide that much needed missing link our league record is W11 D5 L2, and the optimists among us (of which I am one) would put those two defeats down as an anomaly with our limited preparations for the season.

Even if we choose not to do that, its an impressive record, especially for a team that in my view is still evolving, so I'm not sure that this supports your view that we dont have the framework to pick up points.