Sub par manager and poor coaching is very evident. Even a blind could see that.
Are we jinxed or is there a coaching issue at Manchester United
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran hold a long overdue conversation about United's awful league form with 1 win in 7. They discuss a disappointing draw at Bournemouth, a not so disappointing draw against Liverpool and a crushing defeat at Chelsea - Is time nearly over for Erik Ten Hag?
Then in a special second half of the pod, Nik welcomes Natalie ( https://twitter.com/natalie_17) to discuss the fortunes of Manchester United Women as they booked a place in the FA Cup Final after a historic first ever win vs. Chelsea.
Not really, it's just that each team is a different situation.
We see a player for team A who is playing well, at least statistically.
We can't analyse the player including the team as a factor, we overrate the player.
Rinse and repeat.
We massively overrate players.
Maybe a dream for some fans but i don't think its ever helpful, Mourinho did plenty of it it didn't achieve much other than probably lowering team morale and contributing to getting him the sack. Ferguson was always reluctant to criticize the club even though for a long time he was left disappointed almost every summer as the clubs wage structure and recruitment policies wouldn't allow him to get his preferred targets.
Now that i do agree with and i've felt the same for a long time. Its why Moyes was a terrible choice for United. If you look at most of the successful managers down the years a lot of them have been in charge of the top teams in smaller leagues before making the jump to big leagues. Ferguson at Aberdeen, Mourinho at Porto and even Guardiola with Barca B.
Ole only played this combo in the league twice against Everton and Tottenham and it didn't work well in either game.
Ole has a playing well against big sides counter attacking.
Against defensive setups a huge failure. You excel in the premiere league dominating smaller teams - not counter attacking and hanging on against the big boys.
Against defensive setups a huge failure. You excel in the premiere league dominating smaller teams - not counter attacking and hanging on against the big boys.
True, I too think it's a weakness of his, albeit one that the fans would relish. The good thing is he seems to have toned it down in recent times.
Good observation. If we are able to target managers who have less of a steep learning curve when coming here then we'll have set them up well for success.
In my opinion the two big learning curves for foreign managers in the PL are (i) learning the importance of the midfield battle especially 2nd balls, and (ii) learning how to consistently break down deep, organized defences. The latter seems to be the harder of the two to master, so if we get a coach already adept at this, then they'll be much more liable to succeed than one who needs to learn it on the job.
Hope it can work in CL at least then. If we get going again.
You guys are just really behind when it comes to positional movement coaching. There is coaching, but it is not the modern school of coaching where positional play is an increasingly crucial part of all the top teams ( and some minor teams with good coaches).
None of the Man Utd Managers in recent times are good positional movement coaches. Not even Alex Ferguson in his last years. Van Gaal is a positional coach, but he is not an adovcate of high-tempo passing and pressing. Ole, Moyes, and Mourinho are all reactive coaches that relies heavily on individual brilliance rather than coaching a positional system for the players.
None of the Man Utd Managers in recent times are good positional movement coaches. Not even Alex Ferguson in his last years. Van Gaal is a positional coach, but he is not an adovcate of high-tempo passing and pressing. Ole, Moyes, and Mourinho are all reactive coaches that relies heavily on individual brilliance rather than coaching a positional system for the players.
This
Posts like this are stupid beyond anything. So if you don't have any expertise in a field you are not allowed to raise any critisism? I guess you haven't ever criticised the government, an actor, a doctor, a teacher, etc etc.The sad thing is, Ole could pop into the matchday thread on here at any time and cherry pick any of a thousand articulate posters who KNOWS exactly how United should be coached.
What's wrong with you?? Despite his ridiculous opinion, you shouldn't talk like that to a handsome devil.
I said the post as stupid not the person mate, see there's a difference
Just press making stuff up for clicks, it's almost like it's read off a 14 years old twotter. fans are on a string these days
I think it's very clear the fact that we started pre-season a few weeks after most other teams is the main reason for our horror start. But the media has had a field-day by creating a myth that we are a club in free-fall and many fans have fallen for it.
We're still paying the price for the wreckless horror panic buying of the Mourinho and Van Gaal. Lindelof, Bailly, Pogba are 3 expensive signings that Jose left us with that will be impossible to shift for the money the board would want, and are still causing a lot of issues. Pogba can be world class but has only performed in about 20% of games he has played for us since he arrived.
There's no doubt that we will go on a winning run soon and everyone will love Ole again. Last season everyone of his signings was a hit. Hopefully same will be for this season and that we can go on a winning streak very soon.
We're still paying the price for the wreckless horror panic buying of the Mourinho and Van Gaal. Lindelof, Bailly, Pogba are 3 expensive signings that Jose left us with that will be impossible to shift for the money the board would want, and are still causing a lot of issues. Pogba can be world class but has only performed in about 20% of games he has played for us since he arrived.
There's no doubt that we will go on a winning run soon and everyone will love Ole again. Last season everyone of his signings was a hit. Hopefully same will be for this season and that we can go on a winning streak very soon.
Pogba was a club signing and not a Jose signing. Almost everyone from fans to media to Woodward were convinced what a huge crime SAF committed to let Pogba leave on a free and that Pogba would be the saviour of United.
I don’t think Pogba has ever, or will ever be World Class. He can however, be a very good player for us.
As soon as we start to judge him by realistic standards, then we should be happier with him.
he’s clearly been poor at the start of this season, but there are numerous reasons for that.
I don't think that's true. Even Jose said Fergie told him to sign Deli Alli when he arrived but he decided for Pogba instead. When Jose says he never wanted a player who has flopped in the first place, then usually the opposite is true. Sure he was begging the club to spend 200 million on Willian, Peresic and Jerome Boateng too.
Anyways Pogba is a brilliant player still. He could still have an amazing season for us. But he still has yet to prove to everyone that he can cut it consistently in the premier league. There's still huge question marks over his mental strength, defensive discipline and attitude.
Anyways I think we'll be back on track very soon with this squad.
We were even more shit for large periods under LvG and Mourinho, so Solskjaer's coaching cannot be derided in isolation. I'm not going to even bother including Moyes in the argument. It's not just simply down to coaching though I'm not disputing it may be a factor albeit a relatively small one.
I just think it's a combination of a whole raft of different things.
It is mostly coaching. Jose is no longer one of the game’s great tacticians and LvG hasn’t been for over a decade. Ole has very little tactical or coaching acumen beyond setting up for a counter attacking game and relying on individual quality in forward areas. It is most definitely the coaching.
Absolutely spot on. Pin that post to the top of this thread.
The manager is of course ultimately responsible for the tactical direction and implementation so if his team are not doing what he wants them to do or what is needed then he is gravely at fault for not doing something about it!
So do I but I still feel Pogba will be a passenger. I'm itching to see VDB get a proper run in this team. I think he will compliment our attacking players a bit more. We don't need Hollywood passes, just quick incisive movement so the opposition can't get back in to shape.
Where to start with this post...
1 - No, we don’t see what happens on the training ground, but we certainly see what is produced on the pitch week after week, so next point.
2 - Your concept of tactics and coaching seems really warped and almost like you think getting the best out of your players and coaching them properly are two separate entities. Mind-boggling.
3 -Relying on your players to be “on form” to win you things in a 38 game season, without providing any useful insight in how to keep them “on form”, is somewhat hard to understand, especially when you bizarrely claim that it is “more important” than having “well oiled passing for no reason” which again just shows you have an extremely limited understanding of what tactics and coaching entail.
exactlyThe Athletic have great sources for a lot of the PL clubs, including United.
If they write it's from a source close to the players, then it most likely is.
It's not like they'd gain a lot from a few clicks anyway, being an ad-free subscription-based paper with a free trial period.
Start with the people upstairs. Every footballing decision starts with them. Can't always blame the managers when the people hiring them and deciding on budgets, staff, ect, haven't a clue about football. And this isn't a post defending Ole or any past manager. I believe our football problems lie deeper than a manager. 7 years of this should tell us something.
Example, a club as huge as Manchester United should not be hiring players to be first team coaches when we are going through such turmoil when they have not proved there credentials elsewhere. Did this happen anywhere with Sir Alex? If I remember correctly, players would be handed a job in the youth system first, to get their teeth into coaching without much disadvantage to it.
Example, a club as huge as Manchester United should not be hiring players to be first team coaches when we are going through such turmoil when they have not proved there credentials elsewhere. Did this happen anywhere with Sir Alex? If I remember correctly, players would be handed a job in the youth system first, to get their teeth into coaching without much disadvantage to it.
who are you taking about?
Carrick mostly, McKenna to an extent also.
fair enough about Carrick, forgot about him, but it’s not unusual and it’s only one player/ coach. McKenna has been a coach for a number of years before coming into the first team fold.
Hasn't his only experiences come through youth team coaching? Not saying his step up shouldn't have happened, but when you hire a manager like Ole, who despite my encouragement for him, lacks top level experience, then surround him with similarly inexperienced coaches, (which Ole could play apart of, but I'm sure both were hired whilst Jose was still here) then it shows the lack of footballing IQ from the decision makers when you expect this to be a success. Last year you could maybe understand with Phelan coming into the mix.
Just for context, anyone know of our other coaches? We seem to have the most inexperienced coaching staff around.
my point was only that McKenna didn’t come direct from being a player.
Fair enough, that's why I said to an extent.
There is no coaching issue here at this club, after a series of first team managers after SAF with different ideas, yes that was a mistake doing that route, there clearly was no succession plan and that was poor whether they indulged SAF to select moyes (how can you refuse him after what he achieved) I don't know but we have clearly now completely changed tact with our direction and gone back to traditional values, we have spent a lot of money this window on talented youth, this is long term thinking though there is no patience amongst a lot of the fanbase, people need to be patient, it does take time, Ole is doing all the right things in terms of squad composition and recruitment, we have the youngest team in the league and rightly have added in a few more experienced players in Cavani and Telles to help it, the level of talent we have coming through on the cusp is nearly overwhelming, I have no doubt it will work out in the next few years and when it does there will be sustained success in terms of competing for the top honours, Ole is very intelligent and is doing the right things, he is relatively young as a coach, but he is a SAF student and is implementing that, I just hope he also realises, just like SAF did you cannot stand still and do the same things, you need to adapt for longevity. I hope that is part of what he learned from SAF and knows when the time is right to do so.
I have a couple of questions for people who say it is not a coaching issue?
Why are we leaving so much space between our defence and our midfield and our forwards?
Why do we press so slowly and half heartedly if we are a pressing team?
Why do we not vary our corners and free kicks?
Why do we not know how to keep possession from our throw ins?
Why do our players play as individuals instead of as a team?
Why is our positional play so bad?
Why are we leaving so much space between our defence and our midfield and our forwards?
Why do we press so slowly and half heartedly if we are a pressing team?
Why do we not vary our corners and free kicks?
Why do we not know how to keep possession from our throw ins?
Why do our players play as individuals instead of as a team?
Why is our positional play so bad?
There is a huge coaching issue in the club. Ole is not doing the coaching correctly, at all. We are among the bottom teams in distance covered, we have no organisation, you can argue Ole has made a mess of man management on top. He is failing in almost every perspective at the moment, even after getting thumped 6-1 he shrugged his shoulders as he gave answers. Saying "he's a student of SAF" means feck all, honestly. Being a very good striker doesn't mean you're a top manager, and in the 11 years of management the hasn't proven anything at top level on top. You can just tell he looks lost, but you can see it on the pitch for itself regardless.
Anyway, Raphael Hogenstein is the latest I found to have openly pointing to the coaching being a problem. He said that you can buy a blue chip defender or defensive midfielder, and the team will get a lift but it's not going to solve the underlying issues with the squad, that they are just badly coached.
Howdy mate, I know your frustrations, trust me, but I will say it again, patience. There is a shit load of crap to be undone, most of which has been, and then a lot to be implemented which is a slower process, Ole is doing great work to fix it, but it could be the case Ole does all this great work and then another coach steps in an reaps the benefits, but as a United fan who loves what is going on at youth level just as much as the first team, there is a lot to be excited about.
This is not about patience at all. It's not impatient to expect organisation and work ethic on a more consistent basis when he's been in the role since December 2018.
Ole is not doing any sort of "great work". I'm in agreement that he means well, but there is nothing to point to him actually having competence in a job at a top club. In fact his CV points to incompetence, and his time here has been reflective of this too.
Coaching + Egos are the 2 main issues.
If you listen to Jose/Lukaku-->Pogba/Martial run the show behind the scenes by keeping personal motives at first place. I think that culture must change and we need a tough guy who can handle that.
I am not a big fan of Jose but I think he was right about Pogba...Wish we got rid of Pogba long time back
If you listen to Jose/Lukaku-->Pogba/Martial run the show behind the scenes by keeping personal motives at first place. I think that culture must change and we need a tough guy who can handle that.
I am not a big fan of Jose but I think he was right about Pogba...Wish we got rid of Pogba long time back
I get what you mean. Players always look at the coach to sort out the problems. Always. When a team loses the question is asked what happened and how do we stop this happening. It is very easy for us to say Maguire did this and Bailly did this but in reality the mistake starts a lot earlier. It is down to the coaches to look at what happened and to stop it happening. To say that we have been a shambles is right.
I will give a couple of examples in the Spurs match.
1. Martial broke and Son pursued him and did not tackle him but slowed him down and the Spurs defence sprinted back.
2. Son broke and it was up to Matic to run after him and it was only a miss control that let DeGea save it. When they break our defence just jogs back.
3. When the Spurs full back went to score the goal, Pogba let him go.
4. When we were 1-3 down we still played the same way. We did not try to cut down the goals they scored.
5. So much space left for Spurs to play even when it was still 11 v 11. Look at the positional play of us. All over the place. Even when we attack there is no passing. We try to dribble with head down and try to take the whole opposing team. Why do not pass? DVB looks extremely puzzled as to what is happening on the pitch.
It is entirely due to lack of coaching.