Are we now “the impossible job”?

IrwinwasbetterthanCarlos

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Given the size of the club, the scrutiny we’re always under given the clicks we generate, the volume of highly successful ex-pros working as pundits, chucking in their tuppence every few days, the incredibly high quality of the division, the weight of expectation from a huge fan base and the sheer scale of our success under Fergie, are we now unmanageable? Is the job just too big for almost any manager?

If we measure real success as delivering a league title within 3 seasons, which managers out there would you give a better than 50% chance at delivering that? Pep. Klopp. Maybe Enrique. Some might chuck another name or two in, but either way, wouldn’t need a second hand to count them.

We’ve just chewed up and spat out two of the most highly rated managers on the continent in succession and whilst I’ll join in the speculation about a replacement and live in hope they’ll turn the tide, my head tells me that we’ll just chew them up and spit them out too.

We took 26 years to win a title before Fergie, and I reckon we’ll go 26 again. 13 and counting so far, might just be about halfway there…
 
We're any manager's wet dream.

- very low expectations after last 2 seasons
- decent squad to work with
- finally a good chance to reinforce midfield with a few options on the radar which are not Frankie De Jong
- club willing to invest
- deadwood gone

That + we just need Haaland to leave to Madrid/Barca and I reckon we have a good chance against anyone in the league.

I definitely see us the future in bright colors.
 
Nothing like impossible. You don't have to come in and win the league, you just need to do ok in your first year or so and the squad and finances are largely there now to support you if you're the right person for the job.
 
The best managers would love to take the job because it's perceived as the hardest. Probably now is better than ever to come in because we're doing so badly.
 
Don’t we just need to play 4-3-3 and will be challenging for the title as per most on the Caf?
 
It is a very tricky job.. alot of outside noise is expected.

If feels impossible due to lack of top tier managers around.

Apart from Pep, what other top managers around that have done it at multiple clubs?

It seems a manager has done really well at smaller clubs, being propped up as a United manager and finds it hard to deal with the jump up.
 
This was said about us in the 80s. Football is constant trial and error until you get where you want to be, and very few clubs are there. We will get it right again eventually.
 
ETH won as many league titles as De Boer at Ajax. He was sacked within two games at Leverkusen. Maybe it was him that was the problem? Maybe our problem is we keep making bad decisions when it comes to picking managers? None of our former managers have done anything noteworthy since leaving us.

Amorim was turned down by Liverpool and West Ham. He might have been highly rated, but two clubs didn’t feel they could trust him.
 
Its not impossible at all. But we need to make better decisions. The GLazers never really cared about on field stuff beyond a top 4 finish, and trusted Woodward who was spectacularly unqualified to run a major football club and not surprisingly made a series of stupid decisions, not least wanting too much power and failing to appoint qualified people to make the football decisions. Then lets look at Ratcliffe's ownership, its been a disaster show. From not sacking ETH when we were a joke in his second season, to then panicking and pivoting to Amorim.

Some really interesting analyses around today. One unnamed football exec in Guardian says its clear there is no coherent process at the club. He gives four broad metrics to judge a manager, one is about whether he has genuinely outperformed expectations to date and another is whether the style of play suits the squad and the club ethos. On the first point there has been quite a bit of debate amongst those in the game how much Amorim was the driver of the Sporting success, noting that they unearth a lot of gems and had Gyokeres as a true unicorn effect. It has been suggested that Amorim mistook his system as the key to success rather than just having better players. Certainly Sporting have continued success since he left. The most interesting thing I saw separately, after being amazed at their sales over the last few years, is that the City sporting director Viana was poached from Sporting last summer. It seems they spotted the real architect of Sporting's success.

The final point is on system, where Berrada and Wilcox look like idiots for promoting a manager when we did not have the players and its not really a United style. Remember both Spurs and Liverpool passed on him for this reason. On the evoltion point, the Telegraph has some well sourced stuff and claim that from the outset Amorim had said his system would evolve. The pitch to Semenyo was that he would play wide left in a 433, which Amorim was apparently behind. I have said on there there was no way he would come here to play wing back, and it seems both Amorim and the rest recognised this.

So no its not impossible, but we have had a series of awful decision makers who keep making awful decisions.
 
Offside said:
This was said about us in the 80s. Football is constant trial and error until you get where you want to be, and very few clubs are there. We will get it right again eventually.
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Probably this
 
We have many issues: it seems we dont have a clear structure yet.

Another one is the low standards in our culture (amazing that Shaw is still in the club and playing).

We also have some exogenous issues, especially regarding the media. For example Salah, a legend of Liverpool and for football in general, complains and the most known pundit immediately supports the club. Here, nothing players (for us and in general) like Rashford, Garnacho, Mainoo, Henderson etc start complaining (due to the low standards we have they feel entitled) and people lose their mind how we are broken and we are unfair to them etc.

We need to start working on them. The 2 first are more clear. However, regarding the third I m not so sure how we can deal with media and start protecting our manager.
 
If we have our eyes firmly set on returning to the pinnacle of world football and winning then we are probably the hardest job in the game amongst the historically biggest clubs.
 
It is not an impossible job. You just need to recruit the right people to do the job. Don't hire a manager to play a certain style, hire a manager who is able to adapt the squad to a fitting style.
 
TwoSheds said:
Nothing like impossible. You don't have to come in and win the league, you just need to do ok in your first year or so and the squad and finances are largely there now to support you if you're the right person for the job.
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This and if a manager is humble and capable of improving players then he can strike gold here. The back 4 pretty much picks itself, Heaven is a revelation. The attack is set and you only need to be creative with the midfield - forget seniority, field a midfield 3 and try something on the DM, either Heaven or Lisandro. If things work you will be deified.


Anyone coming in has to be smart and humble. Expectations are low but the squad is good. He just needs to make the midfield functional until the summer where he will get a couple.
 
Manchester United as a football club is institutionally broken. No manager can realistically come in now and fix or save this mess. You could bring back prime Sir Alex Ferguson, Johan Cryuff, add Pep Guardiola and Klopp alongside him, and it still wouldn't work because the problem isn't just on the touchline.

The rot is higher up. The boardroom is dysfunctional, decision-making is incoherent, and the football structure is fundamentally flawed. INEOS have already shown they are not competent football operators, just look at Nice, who have spent years drifting around the bottom half of Ligue 1 under Ratcliffe's ownership. That is not exactly a glowing reference. And that's exactly why I never wanted Ratcliffe to come in as a minority shareholder. This halfway-house ownership model guarantees nothing changes. For all we know, INEOS are still effectively Glazer puppets, running United like a corporation rather than a football club. Cost-cutting, optics, and internal politics matter more than winning. Rangnick openly outlined the issues when he was here - zero transparency, layers upon layers of bureaucracy, confused recruitment, and a complete lack of footballing logic. He said we were six years behind Liverpool, and that gap hasn't closed. If anything, it's widened. At least with full ownership, even a Saudi takeover, there would be accountability. They would demand results and be willing to rip everything out and rebuild from top to bottom. What we have now is stagnation, compromise, and rampant nepotism.

They cut Sir Alex's salary as a club ambassador when the only reason this club is what it is today is solely because of him, slash 250 backroom staff jobs, yet happily burn tens of millions through sheer incompetence.
£14.5m paid to sack Ten Hag after extending his contract when they should have let him go.
£11m paid to Sporting to pry Amorim away on a now or never ultimatum.
Another £10m to sack Amorim, maybe more.
£4.5m paid to remove Ashworth who never should been pushed out in the first place and was actually a highly respected football operator.

In any serious company, this level of mismanagement would result in people being fired and potentially sued. Yet somehow, Wilcox and Berrada remain untouchable. How? What exactly are they being judged on? What have they delivered to justify still being in these roles? Wilcox should also be fired too. His incompetence has cost the club time, money yet zero accountability from him. They don't want challengers or visionaries managers challenging them, they want yes-men. Ole survived far longer than his performances justified because he suited the Glazers' business model. He kept things calm, spoke well to the media, protected the owners, and never rocked the boat. That's why every manager looks worse than the last, and why this cycle will never end until the hierarchy is completely overhauled. Until that happens, no coach or manager is succeeding here. Not now. Not anytime soon.
 
No.

Liverpool are the closest comparison. They cycled through loads of crap managers, and when the stars aligned the for Klopp and had some decent people in charge of transfers.

When we look back at the managers we’ve had since Fergie - do we see any of them as capable of doing the job? Have any of them gone and ‘proved us wrong’?

The only one that had pedigree and the tools needed was Jose - unfortunately it was 5-10 years too late, and we’ve seen him get worse and worse since leaving us.

There are things to fix across the club, none of them insurmountable. Furthermore, as we’ve seen many times, these things can turn around very quickly.

Not saying it will turn around quickly - but a couple of great youngsters, a couple of decent transfer windows where the vast majority of players are successes and a half decent manager - and we are challenging.

We are extremely lucky that we have money, and the fan base. We ‘just’ need to spend that money better.
 
I don't think so. We need stable recruitment and INEOS for all the flak they're getting seem to be doing a decent job on getting the right players in (after EtH) more often than not. But this includes manager recruitment - we can't just keep going after the latest sensation. We have to make sure we have a plan of how we want to play and operate and that they suit those parameters.

Some of the mistakes made have been basic - whoever looked at the club from grassroots to first team and decided a manager wedded to 3-4-3 was the way to go?
A defined "game model" has to be in place that fits the ethos of the club, and recruitment of made around that. Start from there and the recurring rebuilds stop. Have clear KPIs for each manager over 1.5 seasons, if there's not marked progress, cut losses, go for the next one that fits the same ethos.

This isn't rocket science, any semi interested football person, or even fan, understands this.
 
Nole said:
Manchester United as a football club is institutionally broken. No manager can realistically come in now and fix or save this mess. You could bring back prime Sir Alex Ferguson, Johan Cryuff, add Pep Guardiola and Klopp alongside him, and it still wouldn't work because the problem isn't just on the touchline.

The rot is higher up. The boardroom is dysfunctional, decision-making is incoherent, and the football structure is fundamentally flawed. INEOS have already shown they are not competent football operators, just look at Nice, who have spent years drifting around the bottom half of Ligue 1 under Ratcliffe's ownership. That is not exactly a glowing reference. And that's exactly why I never wanted Ratcliffe to come in as a minority shareholder. This halfway-house ownership model guarantees nothing changes. For all we know, INEOS are still effectively Glazer puppets, running United like a corporation rather than a football club. Cost-cutting, optics, and internal politics matter more than winning. Rangnick openly outlined the issues when he was here - zero transparency, layers upon layers of bureaucracy, confused recruitment, and a complete lack of footballing logic. He said we were six years behind Liverpool, and that gap hasn't closed. If anything, it's widened. At least with full ownership, even a Saudi takeover, there would be accountability. They would demand results and be willing to rip everything out and rebuild from top to bottom. What we have now is stagnation, compromise, and rampant nepotism.

They cut Sir Alex's salary as a club ambassador when the only reason this club is what it is today is solely because of him, slash 250 backroom staff jobs, yet happily burn tens of millions through sheer incompetence.
£14.5m paid to sack Ten Hag after extending his contract when they should have let him go.
£11m paid to Sporting to pry Amorim away on a now or never ultimatum.
Another £10m to sack Amorim, maybe more.
£4.5m paid to remove Ashworth who never should been pushed out in the first place and was actually a highly respected football operator.

In any serious company, this level of mismanagement would result in people being fired and potentially sued. Yet somehow, Wilcox and Berrada remain untouchable. How? What exactly are they being judged on? What have they delivered to justify still being in these roles? Wilcox should also be fired too. His incompetence has cost the club time, money yet zero accountability from him. They don't want challengers or visionaries managers challenging them, they want yes-men. Ole survived far longer than his performances justified because he suited the Glazers' business model. He kept things calm, spoke well to the media, protected the owners, and never rocked the boat. That's why every manager looks worse than the last, and why this cycle will never end until the hierarchy is completely overhauled. Until that happens, no coach or manager is succeeding here. Not now. Not anytime soon.
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Understanding costs, and cutting costs are the exact opposite of the Glazers.

New training ground complex, looking at the new stadium. The Galzers investment into infrastructure was a coat of paint.

Yes, it’s been rocky, and far from perfect, but it’s been a big change in how the club operates.

The cost cutting has been necessary. A sign of the gluttony was the salary we gave Sit Alex. I love that man to bits, but we didn’t need to be paying him that money.

Unfortunately there are costs to hiring and firing managers. No club, ever, has got that right every time. How much have Barca, Madrid, Chelsea, Arsenal spent on managers the past decade?

City and Pep the exception - but before that they burned through managers.

Is it right? No. Is it better than before? I certainly believe so.

Do we still want to get rid of the parasites (Glazers) - 100%.
 
No. You just suck at hiring the right people.
 
Borys said:
We're any manager's wet dream.

- very low expectations after last 2 seasons
- decent squad to work with
- finally a good chance to reinforce midfield with a few options on the radar which are not Frankie De Jong
- club willing to invest
- deadwood gone

That + we just need Haaland to leave to Madrid/Barca and I reckon we have a good chance against anyone in the league.

I definitely see us the future in bright colors.
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As a consultant, I always preferred an assignment that started with a base of doom and despair
 
We have to be the most desirable job on the market.

Boast a sub 35% win rate, spend 300m in two windows, have the backing of fans through thick and thing, get paid a massive wage.

Not even relegation clubs would tolerate that.
 
DevilRed said:
We have to be the most desirable job on the market.

Boast a sub 35% win rate, spend 300m in two windows, have the backing of fans through thick and thing, get paid a massive wage.

Not even relegation clubs would tolerate that.
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The previous managers win rate is largely irrelevant, we've been bouncing around 5th and 6th this season and that's the bar any new manager will be judged against.

It's a tough because given the bunched table at best we move up to 4th and if they underperform it could easily be 10th.

This isn't a squad in crisis that will be reset as a new project. The expectation will be to carry on towards becoming a title challenging team.
 
Nole said:
Manchester United as a football club is institutionally broken. No manager can realistically come in now and fix or save this mess. You could bring back prime Sir Alex Ferguson, Johan Cryuff, add Pep Guardiola and Klopp alongside him, and it still wouldn't work because the problem isn't just on the touchline.

The rot is higher up. The boardroom is dysfunctional, decision-making is incoherent, and the football structure is fundamentally flawed. INEOS have already shown they are not competent football operators, just look at Nice, who have spent years drifting around the bottom half of Ligue 1 under Ratcliffe's ownership. That is not exactly a glowing reference. And that's exactly why I never wanted Ratcliffe to come in as a minority shareholder. This halfway-house ownership model guarantees nothing changes. For all we know, INEOS are still effectively Glazer puppets, running United like a corporation rather than a football club. Cost-cutting, optics, and internal politics matter more than winning. Rangnick openly outlined the issues when he was here - zero transparency, layers upon layers of bureaucracy, confused recruitment, and a complete lack of footballing logic. He said we were six years behind Liverpool, and that gap hasn't closed. If anything, it's widened. At least with full ownership, even a Saudi takeover, there would be accountability. They would demand results and be willing to rip everything out and rebuild from top to bottom. What we have now is stagnation, compromise, and rampant nepotism.

They cut Sir Alex's salary as a club ambassador when the only reason this club is what it is today is solely because of him, slash 250 backroom staff jobs, yet happily burn tens of millions through sheer incompetence.
£14.5m paid to sack Ten Hag after extending his contract when they should have let him go.
£11m paid to Sporting to pry Amorim away on a now or never ultimatum.
Another £10m to sack Amorim, maybe more.
£4.5m paid to remove Ashworth who never should been pushed out in the first place and was actually a highly respected football operator.

In any serious company, this level of mismanagement would result in people being fired and potentially sued. Yet somehow, Wilcox and Berrada remain untouchable. How? What exactly are they being judged on? What have they delivered to justify still being in these roles? Wilcox should also be fired too. His incompetence has cost the club time, money yet zero accountability from him. They don't want challengers or visionaries managers challenging them, they want yes-men. Ole survived far longer than his performances justified because he suited the Glazers' business model. He kept things calm, spoke well to the media, protected the owners, and never rocked the boat. That's why every manager looks worse than the last, and why this cycle will never end until the hierarchy is completely overhauled. Until that happens, no coach or manager is succeeding here. Not now. Not anytime soon.
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No reason to be paying SAF, was stupid we were doing it.
 
The chance of success at United is very low, I would imagine many managers keeping away.
 
The key criteria here is recruitment and if you as a club can get your recruitment right as far as how you want to play with and without the ball then things will develop in a positive way quickly. The best manager, or the best DoF is the one who best understands the requirements of implementing a system of play that sacrifices defensive stability for goals.

If you as as a team pair Maguire and Lindelof as a CB pairing and you struggle to manage space hence have to back pedal into a low block which in-turn means we have to go direct and play in transition then it becomes a impossible job.

If you as a team neglect the midfield or even sign a completely unsuitable player for the midfield when your midfield is crying out for a player who can evade and resist pressure and progress play via a pass. Then you're again making it a very difficult task. I can go on and give more examples but for me the best manager for us is the one who understands this in the present day EPL and Jurgen Klopp is a great example of someone who knew exactly what he wanted as far as his footballing blueprint is concerned.
 
Smores said:
The previous managers win rate is largely irrelevant, we've been bouncing around 5th and 6th this season and that's the bar any new manager will be judged against.

It's a tough because given the bunched table at best we move up to 4th and if they underperform it could easily be 10th.

This isn't a squad in crisis that will be reset as a new project. The expectation will be to carry on towards becoming a title challenging team.
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Going to have to disagree with the win rate being irrelevant. It just shows how patient we are with our managers. In fact, if Ruben had kept his mouth shut and actually taken in the critcisim and adapted his formation, he would probably still be here.

Just look at chelsea in comparison. Maresca got them top four and won two trophies. Still got the boot.
 
If our squad wasn't better than our points total implies, i wouldn't have been unhappy with the manager. the truth is the job isn't that hard, but hiring the right manager is critical. we should already be in a much better position and we don't even have a midfield. There is an abundance of subpar teams all over Europe, we need to get our act together and the way back isn't that hard.
 
Daengophile said:
As a consultant, I always preferred an assignment that started with a base of doom and despair
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But that's exactly the point and why I mentioned low expectations. Both the fans and the owners are incredibly patient. Even the players put in this ridiculously bad system have not given up. It's an easy environment for any manager.
 
Borys said:
We're any manager's wet dream.

- very low expectations after last 2 seasons
- decent squad to work with
- finally a good chance to reinforce midfield with a few options on the radar which are not Frankie De Jong
- club willing to invest
- deadwood gone

That + we just need Haaland to leave to Madrid/Barca and I reckon we have a good chance against anyone in the league.

I definitely see us the future in bright colors.
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Came here to write this, I think we are in a great position and any manager that considers themself good should be banging on the door (obvs unless in the handful of clubs in and around our status)
 
Nope. Good squad with some exceptional individuals (Mbuemo, Bruno, Cunha) plus some really promising youngsters.

I think this is the best time post SAF for a manager to come in - it's hard to do worse than Amorim, the squad has a lot of upside and not many old expensive farts left. It will be someone younger and less big name in my opinion to sit in with this structure and that is how it should be. Judge the coach purely on what we see on the pitch. Ineos have also proven themselves decent enough with transfers, more hits than misses and we seem to sell better as well.
 
Depends on the board and fan expectations.

Obviously you are a huge club with money but you play in the premier league.
Competition is fierce. Everybody has money.

I think top four is achievable with the right manager and some extra signings. That midfield needs to be rebuilt.

The title will probably take a lot longer.

I think the right manager and a mutual vision with the board is essential. Some stability.

Took Klopp years to build his team.

Changing manager every couple of years might not be the way.

With that said, Amorim was not the man for the job, you got to see some improvements.
 
It’s a very difficult job still but it’s not the worst time to get it. Expectations are the lowest they’ve ever been, a lot of the big earners and flops are gone or have one foot out the door.

There is a decent group of young players as well and I think it will be easier to move on the more recent signings that haven’t worked like Zirkzee and Ugarte rather than having to keep giving everyone a fresh start.

The big gaping hole is midfield and if that is finally and significantly addressed then there is plenty to work with.

But having said all that, pick the wrong person and we’re back here in 18 months give or take and unfortunately if you had to bet that is the outcome you’d go for.
 
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