Are we now “the impossible job”?

Borys said:
We're any manager's wet dream.

- very low expectations after last 2 seasons
- decent squad to work with
- finally a good chance to reinforce midfield with a few options on the radar which are not Frankie De Jong
- club willing to invest
- deadwood gone

That + we just need Haaland to leave to Madrid/Barca and I reckon we have a good chance against anyone in the league.

I definitely see us the future in bright colors.
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Excellent compensation package when they fail...
 
Moyes > No big team experience
Van Gaal > Past it
Mourinho > Past it
Solskjaer > Totally inexperienced
Ten Hag > No big team experience
Amorim > No big team experience

The recruitment of managers has been the same as most of the players. Totally woeful.

We are Man Utd. We should be aiming much higher. Why are we taking gambles on totally unproven Managers from lesser leagues and has beens.
 
DevilRed said:
Going to have to disagree with the win rate being irrelevant. It just shows how patient we are with our managers. In fact, if Ruben had kept his mouth shut and actually taken in the critcisim and adapted his formation, he would probably still be here.

Just look at chelsea in comparison. Maresca got them top four and won two trophies. Still got the boot.
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Context matters, your point only stands if the new manager was taking over in the same exact scenario which he isn't. We have enough history to look back on to not have to compare to Chelsea. The club's tolerance and patience scales to the situation the manager starts in.

Of all post Sir Alex managers only LvG was sacked in a higher league position. This isn't a reset, the expectation on the new guy will be to achieve something quickly.
 
SirScholes said:
the expectation of this club has gone from winning the league, challenge for the league, get top 4, to now get into Europe. Its the lowest its been
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I think the expectation is quite hard though for an incoming manager as the remit is to basically get a club struggling to get into the CL spots to eventually win the title. You're not employing a manager to just get you into Europe.
 
In a 147 year history, where we've won the league 20 times, only 3 managers have been in charge when winning said leagues. We've been blessed with the greatest managers of all time in Busby and Ferguson, we were close under the Doc and Big Ron perhaps should and could have won it in 86, had we not been ruined by injuries. Either way it's historically difficult to win at United and whilst we had a long and joyful purple patch under Fergie and period of downturn in our fortune was always going follow.

In the past 24 hours I've seen or heard we need a world class manager, someone who'll be a yes man, someone with United DNA, and every other formula that is required for our next manager. We can research all we like in some ways it's always down to a bit of luck in the end as to finding the right person at the right time.

So no it's not impossible, but as always back whoever it is, give them time to build the team, on the provision that we play entertaining football, that we have our own in the team or squad. For all the fact we didn't win much in the 80's it was always fun to watch and that is all we can ask for if we aren't winning the league. It hasn't been fun recently and that needs to change.
 
SilentWitness said:
I think the expectation is quite hard though for an incoming manager as the remit is to basically get a club struggling to get into the CL spots to eventually win the title. You're not employing a manager to just get you into Europe.
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no but that is a long term goal, our expectation this year is to get into Europe. That is a very achievable target for a good manager, with this group of players, in a league where no one can stay consistent (apart from a couple)
 
SirScholes said:
no but that is a long term goal, our expectation this year is to get into Europe. That is a very achievable target for a good manager, with this group of players, in a league where no one can stay consistent (apart from a couple)
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I don't think it would be a long term goal. Get into the CL next season and have another summer of spending and you'll be expected to compete for the title. That's the pressure the manager will be under. Your CEO said about winning the league in 2028.
 
I don't see anything that should make the United job impossible.

We have a decent squad with a good amount of talent in it. We have plenty of prestige and global appeal as a club, and financially we're better off than the majority of clubs.

Ineos aren't going to win any awards, but they are more competent than the Glazers and Woodward.

We simply need to get recruitment right and we'll be fine. Look at Liverpool, they didn't win the league for decades, they had that bleak period with Hodgson and Andy Caroll, then a few years later it all fell in to place because they hired the right people.

Just because we've made a mess of hiring managers for the past decades doesn't mean we're now destined to forever fail
 
SilentWitness said:
I don't think it would be a long term goal. Get into the CL next season and have another summer of spending and you'll be expected to compete for the title. That's the pressure the manager will be under. Your CEO said about winning the league in 2028.
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Yer but that was before having a stinker of a manager, all companies and teams will review goals. It would be mad to say in 2027, a manager is sacked but the next one needs to deliver a title the following season
The expectation will (or should) for the next manager, get into Europe, become a top 4 team, close the gap to the top, become a serious contender. That is not unrealistic,
 
SuperiorXI said:
The best managers would love to take the job because it's perceived as the hardest. Probably now is better than ever to come in because we're doing so badly.
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Honest question:

Since SAF left, which manager could be perceived as “the best”.

We’ve never really had anyone at the top of the pyramid come in.

Moyes definitely was a good PL manager, but that’s it. LVG was a national team manager and definitely past it at club level. Jose’s stock was low after the disastrous 2015/16 start. Ole was happy to be here. Ten Hag seemed more hipster than top level, as did Amorim though he was in the process of beating everyone in front of him, whilst still being all potential.

I think one thing we’ve never had in this 13 year period is a top top manager who could be perceived as someone everyone would genuinely want at the moment in time, with Amorim probably being the closest as a result of the potential he showed.
 
SirScholes said:
Yer but that was before having a stinker of a manager, all companies and teams will review goals. It would be mad to say in 2027, a manager is sacked but the next one needs to deliver a title the following season
The expectation will be Europe, become a top 4 team, close the gap to the top, become a serious contender. That is not unrealistic
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I really really doubt the bolded.
 
I would say Pep, Klopp and Conte are the only ones capable of winning the league for us and unsurprisingly they're pretty much the only managers who won it for anybody in the last 9 years. So it doesn't look like the club itself is the issue but we do need to find a top manager to complete.
 
SirScholes said:
Currently 3 points off being a top 4 team now, with a poor manager. 4 years, 8 transfer windows, absolute no reason to "really really doubt"
It might not happen, but it is not unrealistic
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I disagree that you will be as patient as you assume. I don't think United and Ratcliffe will be like Arsenal and the Kroenke's.
 
Nah, the club just has made mistakes with managerial appointments.

Moyes taking over from SAF was ludicrous. Then following it up with hiring past it managers or novices. They've tried to correct it with upcoming managers from lesser leagues but they've either abandoned their style or are married to a particular one.
 
Depends what the expectations of the job are really. I think I'm beyond the point of wishing that every new manager is the messiah who is going to bring back the glory days within a given timeframe. Now I'm more just hoping that they can deliver the next few steps towards that goal.
 
Still think our board/owners have been so incompetent with transfers, that it's entirely possible they've also been hiring the wrong managers also. Our last two have come from the Dutch and Portuguese leagues which is always a gamble, even with experienced managers, never mind up and coming. Before that it was Ole, Jose, LVG and Moyes. Aside from Jose and LVG who enjoyed moderate success/past it, it's honestly a sorry bunch.
 
Borys said:
But that's exactly the point and why I mentioned low expectations. Both the fans and the owners are incredibly patient. Even the players put in this ridiculously bad system have not given up. It's an easy environment for any manager.
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Yeah, they've all done great so far
 
It might not be impossible, but it's certainly very difficult. The expectations of the fans no longer align with the capacity of the club to compete. We're all talking about how much longer we might have to wait to win the Premier League again, but the advantages that United enjoyed when they last completed for, and won Premier League titles (arguably the best manager of all time and vast financial resources relative to the majority of their rivals) have now gone.

True, the club's financial advantage did endure post-SAF's retirement and, as embarrassing as it was to air publicly, particularly in light of the club's ineptitude regarding player recruitment in the subsequent years, Ed Woodward wasn't entirely wrong when he infamously claimed in 2014 that, "United can do things in the market that other clubs can only dream of."

That financial edge is also now gone, though, eroded away by years of poor performances on the pitch, a lack of regular Champions League football and stagnating commercial revenues. Not only have rivals like City and Liverpool overtaken United financially, but we now have a bloated middle in the Premier League, with several clubs now boasting significant financial resource and player recruitment capacity. United currently have the fifth or sixth largest wage bill in the league, on par with the likes of Newcastle, Villa and Spurs. Now you may say that a large wage bill does not automatically equal results, and that's of course correct, but the correlation between total squad salary and overall squad quality, is a strong one. As it is, United probably have the 6th/7th/8th strongest squad in the league, and, all things being equal, a decent manager performing at just about par for the course, will likely finish 6th/7th/8th with this group of players. Significant investment would be required to get United into a position to challenge for the league and it isn't likely that such investment will be possible under the current ownership.

So we're back to musing about how long we might have to wait before we get our hands on the Premier League title - sadly, the same question could just as reasonably be asked on a Newcastle/Villa/Spurs forum, with the answer being that over a five-year horizon, all four clubs could probably stake a similar claim in terms of their chances of winning the league (which is to say, very little chance at all).
 
SilentWitness said:
I disagree that you will be as patient as you assume. I don't think United and Ratcliffe will be like Arsenal and the Kroenke's.
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The original target was, its 4 obvious steps, and if (granted there is a lot of ifs and buts here) the next manager is the right guy then the first two of those goals should be a breeze, Europe then top 4. It gets messy when going for the title because of how difficult that is but if your a manager and consider yourself serious then we are probably in the best shape we've been in for a long while
 
No, the board just needs to start hiring the right man for the job. So far, they haven't. Some of that is down to poor decision-making, some is down to bad luck. While it may be a difficult task, it isn't impossible. A true top manager will succeed here, but we haven't had one yet.

Moyes: He's clearly just a mid-table manager who didn't have the character for a big club. Appointing him was a bit of a naively romantic attempt to continue with the "hard-working Scotsman" thing, but he belongs at Everton's level.

LVG: He may have been good once, but by the time he came here, he was outdated and couldn't adapt to the modern game.

Jose: His career has declined, and it just happened to be this club that he was at when his shortcomings left him behind the modern game. We've since seen that it's him, not us. He simply hasn't got it anymore.

OGS: Another naively romantic pick. Club hero, likeable fellow, but ultimately doesn't have the managerial talent for a big club.

ETH: The Eredivisie is his level. Lacks the skill and temperament for a big club, which he also showed in his extremely brief stint at Leverkusen.

Amorim: Ego-driven smooth talker who lacks the character to put the job before his own vanity, and hasn't got the general footballing expertise to make it in the PL. Also didn't seem able to handle criticism even when it's warranted.

None of these have been a case of a manager who was good enough at the job itself to take us to the top but undermined by the nature of this club. Of the ones who have taken other jobs since leaving United, they've all been the same or worse there. Not one of them has gone on to prove that they had what it takes and it was United that made it impossible for them.
 
Infra-red said:
United currently have the fifth or sixth largest wage bill in the league, on par with the likes of Newcastle, Villa and Spurs. Now you may say that a large wage bill does not automatically equal results, and that's of course correct, but the correlation between total squad salary and overall squad quality, is a strong one. As it is, United probably have the 6th/7th/8th strongest squad in the league, and, all things being equal, a decent manager performing at just about par for the course, will likely finish 6th/7th/8th with this group of players.
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Well said, but supposedly our fan base are very patient and rational people. Go figure
 
Borys said:
But that's exactly the point and why I mentioned low expectations. Both the fans and the owners are incredibly patient. Even the players put in this ridiculously bad system have not given up. It's an easy environment for any manager.
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Exactly.

The clear-out has been essential for the next manager
 
Signs of improvement but stupid points thrown away. Everyone does that but not like we do. Pretty much up there with Chelsea and Liverpool but of course, we’re in crisis and they are not. Little said about those clubs but the negativity around us is fecking deafening. Thanks GNev, Scholes, etc, Media pressure pressure takes its toll. It’s constant, to the point whether players are scrutinised every second of every game , by (mostly ) online fans as much as so called legends, who would have been playing for West Ham if it weren’t for SAF. Maybe try not to compete with the hysteria around the club and the players might feel able to breathe a bit. Stop adding to the fecking noise. Ruben has gone.. you don’t need another victim. Try it. We can easily get CL qualification with just a small improvement and less hysteria. Give them a fecking break. I know they get a lot of money but that’s no reason to take your hate out on the next manager, player etc
 
SilentWitness said:
I don't think either of these are true.
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Care to explain why you disagree with those?

The expectations are to be in top 5, not even compete against the title contenders.

Assuming we are moving Sancho, Rashford and Hojlund, the squad looks to be in pretty good shape (assuming we bring in some midfielders obviously).
 
It's a tough job but far from impossible. We've won trophies and had some decent league seasons under several managers. Moyes and Amorim are the only two permanent managers that didn't achieve anything. All our previous managers have yet to prove us wrong in any league, let alone the PL yet. I'd be more worried if our previous managers immediately went on to do great things at other top clubs.
 
Olecurls99 said:
Yeah, they've all done great so far
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Apologies, I thought it was clear I meant any next manager.
Amorim set the bar at all-time-low level. The league position isn't really telling the story considering in our next 3 games we're likely to be closer to 15th than 5th, and yet he wasn't sacked because of the results (apparently, but we do all know it played a huge role).
 
Yes, though it’s because the club itself is in a state and has horrendous management, added to by the addition of INEOS. It’s therefore hard for any manager to be successful in this mess.
 
Borys said:
Care to explain why you disagree with those?

The expectations are to be in top 5, not even compete against the title contenders.

Assuming we are moving Sancho, Rashford and Hojlund, the squad looks to be in pretty good shape (assuming we bring in some midfielders obviously).
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You still have a few players in the squad that I'd consider deadwood, though you may be able to get rid of them this Jan. Some returning in the summer too, though I would imagine Hojlund won't.

As explained in another post, you're supposedly hiring a caretaker to the end of the season with your permanent manager getting the job in the summer. Assuming you end up finishing in the top 5 this season with a caretaker, the remit won't be for your permanent manager to just get into the top 5 again. They'll be backed in the summer.
 
NotoriousISSY said:
Honest question:

Since SAF left, which manager could be perceived as “the best”.

We’ve never really had anyone at the top of the pyramid come in.

Moyes definitely was a good PL manager, but that’s it. LVG was a national team manager and definitely past it at club level. Jose’s stock was low after the disastrous 2015/16 start. Ole was happy to be here. Ten Hag seemed more hipster than top level, as did Amorim though he was in the process of beating everyone in front of him, whilst still being all potential.

I think one thing we’ve never had in this 13 year period is a top top manager who could be perceived as someone everyone would genuinely want at the moment in time, with Amorim probably being the closest as a result of the potential he showed.
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None of them since Fergie. Maybe you could argue Jose was the closest but even when we got him there was signs he was past his best.

It will take someone with colossal gonads and ego to come in and right the situation.
 
Infra-red said:
As it is, United probably have the 6th/7th/8th strongest squad in the league, and, all things being equal, a decent manager performing at just about par for the course, will likely finish 6th/7th/8th with this group of players.
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Nar, a top manager takes this lot into top 5 for sure.
You think the squad is 8th strongest because some dipshit has been playing square pegs in round holes for 14 months.
 
SilentWitness said:
You still have a few players in the squad that I'd consider deadwood, though you may be able to get rid of them this Jan. Some returning in the summer too, though I would imagine Hojlund won't.
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I would assume this is the same in every squad bar City/Arsenal (even then I bet they have some players they want to offload). I certainly don't expect us to be worse off than out direct competition in that regards (based on the trajectory of the last 1,5 years).

SilentWitness said:
As explained in another post, you're supposedly hiring a caretaker to the end of the season with your permanent manager getting the job in the summer. Assuming you end up finishing in the top 5 this season with a caretaker, the remit won't be for your permanent manager to just get into the top 5 again. They'll be backed in the summer.
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That still sounds to me like a good place to be for any manager. You get into a team that in Top 5 and get the backing of the club to make us title contenders in the next year or two. That is as good as it's going to get for any manager who wants a new challenge.

I think a big chunk of this discussion boils down to how we evaluate the squad compared to direct rivals. I certainly don't think we're all doom and gloom if we can upgrade the midfield (although sounds like it's groundhog day with that statement).
 
How many managers did Liverpool get through before Klopp? I guess it’s just the way it goes before we find the right one. In the meantime we’re really struggling with identity, ex-players banging on about the United Way/DNA, and the pressure of history, fans living on nostalgia etc.
 
hollywoodpass said:
Moyes > No big team experience
Van Gaal > Past it
Mourinho > Past it
Solskjaer > Totally inexperienced
Ten Hag > No big team experience
Amorim > No big team experience

The recruitment of managers has been the same as most of the players. Totally woeful.

We are Man Utd. We should be aiming much higher. Why are we taking gambles on totally unproven Managers from lesser leagues and has beens.
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Look at Bayern for example, our most successful coach past Pep was assistant coach turned interim turned world beater Hansi Flick, and the one bringing quiet and calm back after chaotic years of managerial carousel is freaking Vincent Kompany. Another famous unproven gamble is a certain Zinedine Zidane.

You don't need a big name manager, you need someone who has a plan for the squad, or at least for the squad with minor additions.
The central problem at United is that in all the time post Fergie a clear identity has not existed anymore with respect to what kind of football your club wants to represent and what sort of players is needed to do so.
The basic idea can of course change over time with larger trends in international football, but instead it changes every two years when the latest failed manager is sacked.
 
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