Are we seeing an increase in nice managers (yes men) within football?

Vidyoyo

The bad "V"
Joined
Jun 12, 2014
Messages
21,346
Location
Not into locations = will not dwell
I was thinking today how odd it is that we've seen a rise in nice managers (previously referred to as yes men) as managers of big clubs over the past few years.

It seems like a shift from an era defined by coaches whose competitiveness often caused rifts both at player and board level. You know, the type associated with old school managers like Fergie (disputes with Magnier), Wenger (complaining all the bloody time) and of course Mourinho, who has seemingly dialled back the animus since he went off the rails here.

With all due respect to Ole - and not meaning to get into negative criticism because I think he's doing an okay job - I think we're all agreed that one of the reasons he's still in the position is partly because of his willingness not to rock the boat with Ed and the Glazers. I'm sure he was just as annoyed as most posters that he we didn't get a right winger this Summer, yet we didn't hear a pipe out of him about it. No pipe. Just that cheeky grin he does. The cheekiest of all grins, if you will.

Southgate is another along these lines; one I like to think is the footballing manager equivalent of a head prefect. He's never been prone to negativity, hence why I think he got the job in the first place after Big Sam proved to be a bit of a rascal. Lampard is another too - somebody who seems so chuffed to be managing Chelsea that he might not even house the ability to be critical of the club hierarchy, not that he needs to be right now. Arteta seems akin, which might be why he gets less flack in the media despite doing a pretty poor job so far in mon opinion.

Of course not all managers are this way inclined because we still have madmen like Bielsa and Simeone. Pep doesn't hold back, nor Klopp. Dyche too for an old school brit.

Still, I can't help but think there's been an increase in managers who are just so friendly and jolly, whose mouths wouldn't melt even if you inserted hot butter inside them. It seems like we're entering a world where charismatic, volatile personalities are on wane in favour of comity at all costs. A brave new era of what defines a football manager at a top, top club.

I wonder, good folk of rouge cafe, why this might be? Amuse me with your responses please.

** Edit - Changed title to look less like I'm referring to a country at the southern end of the Arabian Peninsula and also edited some text to make the overall point less shit (hopefully).
 
Last edited:

Cloud7

Full Member
Joined
Jan 11, 2016
Messages
12,830
Generally arguing with your employer, and publicly at that, isn't the best way to go about sorting out your disagreements, or indeed helping your job security. Managers come and go very often in modern football. It's not in their best interest to agitate their bosses even further.

Looking at the examples you listed, all the managers known for doing this are the ones who have significant claim to their name, and so the football club stands to lose a lot, should they fire said manager. SAF, Wenger, prime Mourinho, Klopp, Pep, these are managers that are among the best in the game, so naturally they have enough standing in the game to challenge their superiors. Even Dyche, on a smaller scale, since it's tough to imagine who else could have done as objectively well as he has with Burnley.

On the other side of the coin, if you're a Lampard or Ole or Arteta, you have little to nothing of significance to your name, so your standing isn't as strong, so if (when) things go awry, your employers are much less likely to be lenient with you if you've been in conflict with them in the past. It makes sense from the point of view of the managers, which is why I would never actually expect Ole to come out and criticize Woody.
 

Bobade

Full Member
Joined
Oct 28, 2019
Messages
1,010
The money is a factor but I think the world has changed. Maybe being a ranting alpha Male isn't the only way people feel they need to act in order to be successful anymore ?
 

JPRouve

can't stop thinking about balls - NOT deflategate
Scout
Joined
Jan 31, 2014
Messages
65,825
Location
France
To me it seems that you based a rule on the exceptions instead of the norm and on a british point of view. The likes of Fergie, Wenger and Mourinho aren't and weren't normal while the likes of Ancelotti, Del Bosque, Ranieri or Hitzfeld were closer to the norm. On the continent managers aren't really a thing, head coaches don't have leverage, they focus on the football side of things and that's it.
 

Vidyoyo

The bad "V"
Joined
Jun 12, 2014
Messages
21,346
Location
Not into locations = will not dwell
Generally arguing with your employer, and publicly at that, isn't the best way to go about sorting out your disagreements, or indeed helping your job security. Managers come and go very often in modern football. It's not in their best interest to agitate their bosses even further.

Looking at the examples you listed, all the managers known for doing this are the ones who have significant claim to their name, and so the football club stands to lose a lot, should they fire said manager. SAF, Wenger, prime Mourinho, Klopp, Pep, these are managers that are among the best in the game, so naturally they have enough standing in the game to challenge their superiors. Even Dyche, on a smaller scale, since it's tough to imagine who else could have done as objectively well as he has with Burnley.

On the other side of the coin, if you're a Lampard or Ole or Arteta, you have little to nothing of significance to your name, so your standing isn't as strong, so if (when) things go awry, your employers are much less likely to be lenient with you if you've been in conflict with them in the past. It makes sense from the point of view of the managers, which is why I would never actually expect Ole to come out and criticize Woody.
Agreed but then it brings about a chicken and egg situation. Were they hired because they were deemed to be that way? And if so, what about modern football means the board are attracted to such managers?

To me it seems that you based a rule on the exceptions instead of the norm and on a british point of view. The likes of Fergie, Wenger and Mourinho aren't and weren't normal while the likes of Ancelotti, Del Bosque, Ranieri or Hitzfeld were closer to the norm. On the continent managers aren't really a thing, head coaches don't have leverage, they focus on the football side of things and that's it.
Good point. I was considering Ancelotti in the OP but couldn't remember a time he'd ever been a controversial manager. I certainly couldn't remember a time he'd had a fallout with anybody. Far too nice.

You're probably right that it's a shift towards a more continental style manager. Graham Potter stands out here because he's a British manager but one who is far more like a Spanish/Italian coach than, say, Dyche.

The money is a factor but I think the world has changed. Maybe being a ranting alpha Male isn't the only way people feel they need to act in order to be successful anymore ?
Something for @esmufc07 to take note of.
 

Tottenhamguy

Full Member
Joined
Sep 8, 2014
Messages
1,006
Supports
Tottenham Hotspur
Southgate is the epitome of a manager with no personality or charisma about him. I remember he scolded Ray Parlour over a light hearted joke(according to Parlour in an interview)

At least with Mourinho/Klopp/,Guardiola you can have a laugh or they will crack a joke or two what you need in modern football to succeed.

Don't think Southgate has got them necessary qualities in him,
 

8thWonder

Full Member
Joined
Jul 22, 2009
Messages
1,346
I was thinking today how odd it is that we've seen a rise in yesmen as managers of big clubs over the past few years. It seems like a total shift from an era defined by coaches whose competitiveness often caused rifts both at player and board level. You know, the type associated with old school managers like Fergie (disputes with Magnier about the horse), Wenger (complaining all the time) and of course Mourinho, who has seemingly dialled back since he went off the rails during his tenure here.

With all due respect to Ole, and not meaning to get into negative criticism of him as our manager, I think we're all agreed that one of the reasons he's still in the position is because of his willingness not to rock the boat with Ed and the Glazers. I'm sure he was as annoyed as most posters here that he we didn't get a right winger this Summer but we didn't hear a pipe out of him about it. Just that cheeky grin he does. The cheekiest of all grins.

Southgate is another as he's footballing manager equivalent of a head prefect, especially compared to stronger international managers like Deschamps and Luis Enrique. Lampard is possibly another - basically somebody who's so happy to be where he is that he doesn't make any criticism of the club hierarchy. Not that Chelsea need it right now but I couldn't imagine him doing it even if they did. Arteta is in this exact same mould too.

Of course not all managers are this way. We still have madmen like Bielsa and Simeone. Pep wouldn't hold back. Klopp too and also Dyche who seems to have some leverage given how much he's overachieved at Burnley in recent years.

Still, I can't help but think there's been an increase in managers who are reluctant to ever step out of line. Charismatic personalities like it seem to be on the wane in the new era of what defines a football manager.

Is it the amount of money in football now which has created a need for people who just get on with the football side of things?
I think you're mixing up Yes men and as you said charismatic managers.

I don't think I've ever heard or ever will ,hear Jurgen or Pep Criticize their boards. Fergie was called exactly that (a yes man) after the Glaziers took over for not calling them out and not spending any money and Wenger didn't spend anything for years because they built their new stadium, again never hearing a peep of negativity despite himself being targeted by arsenal fans for not spending...

There's a reason the likes of Mourinho and Conte never last long and invariably leave their teams in much worse conditions after leaving...

If you're saying managers are becoming more bland/diplomatic in general then that's a different argument.
 

Vidyoyo

The bad "V"
Joined
Jun 12, 2014
Messages
21,346
Location
Not into locations = will not dwell
I think you're mixing up Yes men and as you said charismatic managers.

I don't think I've ever heard or ever will ,hear Jurgen or Pep Criticize their boards. Fergie was called exactly that (a yes man) after the Glaziers took over for not calling them out and not spending any money and Wenger didn't spend anything for years because they built their new stadium, again never hearing a peep of negativity despite himself being targeted by arsenal fans for not spending...

There's a reason the likes of Mourinho and Conte never last long and invariably leave their teams in much worse conditions after leaving...

If you're saying managers are becoming more bland/diplomatic in general then that's a different argument.
Yeah, I guess I could have phrased it that way. I suppose we're in a unique situation as fans of this club because of Fergie (and then Van Gaal and Mourinho!). In a way, it's likely caused a certain amount of bias on my part.

It aligns with what @Cloud7 says because managers who have some success are more likely to be outspoken, not just in respect to the board but also other things like referees (Wenger) and fixture schedules (Klopp and Pep).

I think too that's why we were all a bit surprised by Ole the other week as his 'rant' seemed very out of character. Some even thought he hadn't earned 'the right' to say it whereas that criticism wouldn't be directed at the aforementioned.
 

Zlatan 7

We've got bush!
Joined
May 26, 2016
Messages
11,778
I read most of the opening post trying to workout what a yesmen was, then clicked. Thought it was something I’d never heard of.
 

Dancfc

Full Member
Joined
Oct 28, 2016
Messages
7,407
Supports
Chelsea
Lampard demonstrated clear frustration when we signed no one in January. Don't really think Arteta's a yes man either, apparently Willian was all him.
 

OleBoiii

New Member
Joined
Oct 4, 2019
Messages
6,021
Which manager has publicly criticized his own club and gotten away with it?

With all due respect to Ole, and not meaning to get into negative criticism of him as our manager, I think we're all agreed that one of the reasons he's still in the position is because of his willingness not to rock the boat with Ed and the Glazers.
I hate the way our club is run, but I don't think we sack managers prematurely. Any manager delivering results that are below reasonable expectations will be sacked. Moyes failed to get top 4 with the Champions. Van Gaal failed to get top 4 in his second season. Mourinho was 11 points behind top 4 around Christmas. Had he not been so miserable in the media then he may have survived a bit longer because of his CV and good second season, but that's all speculation.
 

Sky1981

Fending off the urge
Joined
Apr 12, 2006
Messages
30,045
Location
Under the bright neon lights of sincity
Maybe they aren't yes men, but most coach aren't smarter than the manager

You need to be 2x smarter than your boss to actually argue and make a stand.

Maybe they're just in agreement because that's their ceiling
 

Andersonson

Full Member
Joined
Jan 12, 2013
Messages
3,791
Location
Trondheim
Wasnt Fergie the biggest "yes"man according to fans and journos?

He never said anything about us not having money to spend, and we replaced Ronaldo with the likes of Owen and Valencia.

" There is no value in the market "

I guess who is to blame then, when Fergie even falls for them
 

No Love

Full Member
Joined
Jun 9, 2013
Messages
2,373
Sounds like the name of a Nigerian newgen you find in Football Manager.

Sunday Yesmen, the Nigerian forward with a heart of gold.
 

Toad

Full Member
Joined
May 11, 2013
Messages
3,664
Location
England
The employer is in charge of the employee. The employee chooses to be employed by the employer so realistically why would you badmouth them unless you have already left?
 

Stobzilla

Official Team Perv
Joined
Jun 7, 2004
Messages
21,928
Location
Grove Street, home.
Southgate is the epitome of a manager with no personality or charisma about him. I remember he scolded Ray Parlour over a light hearted joke(according to Parlour in an interview)

At least with Mourinho/Klopp/,Guardiola you can have a laugh or they will crack a joke or two what you need in modern football to succeed.

Don't think Southgate has got them necessary qualities in him,
I also remember him starring in a Pizza Hut advert ripping the piss out of him for missing the penalty against Germany not long after the fact, we can all cherry pick things and make sweeping generalisations based upon them.
 

El Zoido

Full Member
Joined
Jun 7, 2013
Messages
12,336
Location
UK
Let’s be honest, this is clearly just another stealth Ole-bashing thread. The perception of Ole as this under-qualified PE teacher yes-man is frankly, completely bizarre. Fergie spent the last 8 years of his career noshing off the Glazers and not a word, as they leeched off our club. And that’s not a criticism of the great man, it’s not his place to knife the people who pay his salary.
 

Piratesoup

Full Member
Joined
Jul 12, 2013
Messages
6,939
Supports
Bayern München
It's like in the movie industry. Once the product is only about profit, and quality is at best a secondary concern, the owners/producers want yes-men with some name recognition in charge of their enterprises. Why bring in someone more difficult to deal with when it's all about the bottom line and not some vision or crap like that?
 

Chairman Steve

Full Member
Joined
May 9, 2018
Messages
7,100
I would say this is a shift in modern football management, where it’s been realised that having one guy as manager control everything is a) ridiculous pressure on that one guy and b) the system revolves around him and if he were to leave it goes to shit (notably United).

So now we have a hybrid of board guys and the manager, to give you DoFs and technical directors who manage this footballing side of things from a certain high level position like types of players to identify and types of coaches to implement the desired style.

What was the manager is now a first team head coach, who works with the people in the above paragraph and executes the plan at the ground level so to speak.

If the head coach isn’t getting the results, the DoF and technical directors can relinquish him easily and find another guy in no time or even one of the DoF/technical director team is capable of stepping in as a stopgap like Rangnick, until the next guy is appointed. I would say this system appears to be severely lacking at Utd and the reason why we fell so far after SAF. Our peers like Juve, Bayern, Real and Barca have had good managers previously but they never seem to have a massive lull when a successful coach leaves, but those clubs had the system mentioned above

To class the modern figure of first team head coach as a ‘yes man’ may be harsh. They probably do have some delegated authority to swing about them and undoubtedly they contribute to the vision forward for a club, but they’re expendable if they’re not getting results. In the case of OGS at Utd, he probably has a say but his word doesnt overrule everyone else. I will say that Utd appear to be moving towards this direction in the past year or so, judging by the transfer dealings like who they signed and who they didn’t sign and why.

The DoF/technical directors will be the most important people in football management, and the first team head coach will be just the pointman.
 

Vidyoyo

The bad "V"
Joined
Jun 12, 2014
Messages
21,346
Location
Not into locations = will not dwell
Let’s be honest, this is clearly just another stealth Ole-bashing thread. The perception of Ole as this under-qualified PE teacher yes-man is frankly, completely bizarre. Fergie spent the last 8 years of his career noshing off the Glazers and not a word, as they leeched off our club. And that’s not a criticism of the great man, it’s not his place to knife the people who pay his salary.
It's not meant that way. If anything, it's more about how Ole isn't actually that different from a lot of other managers in charge of big clubs these days and why that shift might ultimately be.

However, I appreciate your point as I know what this forum can be like.

I read most of the opening post trying to workout what a yesmen was, then clicked. Thought it was something I’d never heard of.
This is true. I was trying to work out how to phrase the question whilst writing it. Trickier to get it out than I imagined.
 
Last edited:

Falcow

New Member
Joined
Mar 20, 2019
Messages
1,338
Location
Dublin
There is no basis for your point. Compared to who and when exactly? What exactly are you comparing it against? Was Roy Evan's not a yes man? Dave Sexton? Bruce Rioch, Roberto Di Matteo? Dave O'Leary at leeds. Moyes even having been appointed by Fergie.

There have always been plenty of each. Also dont see how Lampard or Arteta are yes men, Ole debatable.
 

wolvored

Full Member
Joined
Jul 6, 2016
Messages
9,941
Just talking about Ole and he won't rock the boat as this is the pinnacle of his career. Once sacked he will never ever manage at this level again
 

Paul_Scholes18

Full Member
Joined
Sep 13, 2014
Messages
13,891
Not sure what you define as a yesman? Most managers seem to work with the board and not really fight with them.

I think you mainly have Mourinho as the opposite of a yesman. Even Klopp and Pep do not take that many fights with the board although would not call them yesman.
 

bond19821982

Last Man Standing champion 2019/20
Joined
Oct 26, 2008
Messages
10,423
Location
Nnc
Yes men? Ole, Lampard all have seen their management spent like crazy and you still want them to complain?

It's nothing like Wenger or Fergie era. Clubs have money and they are spending like crazy.
 

Paul_Scholes18

Full Member
Joined
Sep 13, 2014
Messages
13,891
List of most yesman in the PL top 5?

1 OGS
2 Steve Bruce
3 David Moyes
4 Scott Parker
5 Slaven Bilic
 

paraguayo

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Jun 24, 2019
Messages
1,339
Supports
neutral
I agree. Reason being, the guy who can fire or hire you doesn't want someone complaining about you to the media all day.
 

Zen86

Full Member
Joined
Jul 1, 2007
Messages
13,919
Location
Sunny Manc
So Ole is a yes man because he doesn’t throw a hissy fit in public and chastise the players? No thanks to that.