Are we too emotional with Managers?

[Tom Cato]

We don't sack problems early, we wait until its irreversible. If Bayern were United - the fact that Kovac won the league the previous year, he would have had a job until the league was not winnable.

Conte is choosing to leave Inter by the way. Its not that Inter want him gone.

Bayern sacked Kovac when they were 4th in the leauge and got pummeled 5-1 in their home league. We sacked José when we were 6th in the league. Both managers were sacked on the back end of good seasons, after the relationship between club and manager became unbearable.

For Bayern to lose 5-1 in a league where they are essentially Celtic in Scotland, is never going to end well. At least in the Premier League, clubs do occasionally beat any other club on any given day.

Conte is leaving over "mutual consent". Which is the employment equalent of "You dont like us, and we don't like you"

He's never had a manager job more than 3 years (once) - Every other managerial appointment has been between 1-2 seasons. This is just an extremely demanding manager that works well in small doses until having to deal with a pissed of human being every day at work gets old instead of motivating.

 

[7even]

I agree with most of your points, but there has to be an intermediary between the owners and football manager, the owners have to hire an executive with experience in football, they have to come to a conclusion about what they want to achieve with Manchester United and how they want to take the club forward, and let him take decisions on managers, transfers etc. It's a very important position and care has to be taken to appoint a person with proper experience and credentials. The manager really has to be changed to a coach, his only concern should be about training and improving players and on the pitch. We really have to be compartmentalize roles instead of loading everything on the manager's head.

Owners and executives will at some point in this rebuilding process come to this conclusion. They just need time. Maybe they already have a plan but just waiting for the right moment to implement a “DoF”.

@7even When I wrote we don't even know when to let go of a manager, I was actually thinking more of Moyes, LVG and Mourinho. Heck, we even kept Mourinho for months after it was clear the club no longer trusted him.

Is Ole in the same category? Not quite. Though I still wouldn't trust the people inside, who are supposed to see and know more than us, to make the right and quick decision if a change is needed.

This is the problem with lack of trust. If you believe in evolution and that intelligent and educated people actually can improve and learn from earlier mistakes then have faith. Every phase of a rebuilding process needs a certain type of management. When Ole hopefully has rebuild our squad then it’s time to take the next step.

Okay so let's apply your argument to our current predicament. We want to remove all of the players that aren't good enough and replace them with ones that are. Of course this is exactly what we should be doing.

How do we do that? How much will it cost to do that? How quickly can it be done? How do we obtain buyers for the players we dont want?

The irony is that i believe the club are now, for the first time in many seasons, thinking and acting in the right way to take the club back to your dream scenario. Yet the fanbase is still split, many still demand change, many are impatient and unwilling to recognise progress when its happening right before their eyes.

That would suggest that we as a fanbase are in fact too emotional, but for the wrong reasons. The OP suggests that we get attached to managers and players and are reluctant to change, when the last year suggests that the opposite is true. We lack the patience to allow a progressive situation to take its course. We are willing to take that risk of change even if it gives us a 25% chance of accelerating that progress versus a 75% of going back to the start of a rebuild.

That isn't how you get to be Bayern. Its consistently good decision making that gets you there. Not tearing down a progressive situation because you are unwilling or unable to recognise just how bad a situation - on and off the field - this club was actually in compared to where we are now.

Quality! Making consistently good decisions is the key word. To paraphrase Warren Buffett. The key is to avoid heavy losses (read bad decisions)

Of course, but what we are really talking about here is division of labour. Do we have the right balance within the club, in terms of our immediate and future goals. Our transfer strategy would suggest to me that we are doing both, otherwise we wouldn't have any interest in the likes of Bellingham or those players in the age bracket below what we are willing to put on the field right now, when clearly we do.

The danger comes when or if we reach the point where Ole isn't doing well enough and is let go. Can we guarantee that this work, this approach, will continue? The answer is no. Will a DoF provide this guarantee? The answer is also no.

I say yes. Qualifying to the CL was the first step to make us going forward. The next step will be to attract the most talented young players like Sancho. To do that we need stability and a long term strategy because buying top talents is a ongoing process.

Having a DOF will at least provide more guarantee - this is literally the DOF's role. Instead we've been changing managers, with each manager trying to instil their own style by buying their own players while selling players inherited from the previous manager. It's a mess.

Right now Ole is both our manager and DoF. Let him finish his rebuilding project then we can evaluate how to move forward without losing continuity.

What structure means in reality is the opposite of what you're alluding to (in which case nothing has changed indeed).

The point is that the general direction of the club should not change with the appointment of a single person. It's exactly what happened in the post-Fergie years. We sacked Moyes and got Van Gaal who made us play a completely different brand of football, spent hundreds of millions of pounds and incurred dozens of ins and outs to build his own squad. Then Van Gaal was sacked and Mourinho did the same. Then Mourinho was sacked and Solskjaer did the same again.

It's not sacking the manager that is the problem. It's the fact that the direction of the club is completely subject to the whim of a single person that is the problem.

The club should have a philosophy of its own, be it playing quick attacking football, emphasizing local young talents, etc.. Whatever it is, we should stick to it in the long term, and try to find coaches and directors that can maximize the results while adhering to the club's principle. What this means is we simply don't hire a Moyes/Van Gaal/Mourinho in the first place. This also means if Solskjaer fails to reach the results required, the club should just sack him and find another coach that can get the results while playing attacking football and developing the youth instead.

We as a club aren't just too emotional with the manager, we're too emotional at everything related to football. We need to be professional, which means we have to enter the age of specialization.

If "backing the manager" means to let the manager dictate absolutely everything, from the daily training details to the general direction of the club, then it's the last thing we should do.

Totally correct but with such a giant fan base you will always have tons of opinions and experts who knows what’s right or wrong. In a media dominant world none are totally immune to outside criticism. MU needs a group of ex players, pro United profiles who defend our philosophy when results aren’t as expected. We‘re nowhere near that situation now. Scholes. Neville. Ferdinand. Keane. All United legends with tons of different opinions. Not to mention all the ABU pundits who will do anything to miss credit us whenever it’s possible.

Even Bayern only sacked their manager when things turned extremely sour. So it's not really a question of sacking someone successful, they sacked a problem.

We sacked a problem in Mourinho, and replaced him with Ole.

if Bayern had not found themselves in a toxic manager/player situation, they would never have sacked the manager in the first place.. so while i get where you are coming from, the idea that managers that come of seasons where the outspoken goal has been accomplished, just doesn't happen, not with Bayern, and not with us.

Even Conte is leaving Inter because he is an absolute pain in the ass to work with, despite having had a very good season with Inter. Managers like that wear on a squad pretty fast, while they do tend to get results in the short run.

Ole is immensely popular in the club and has the full backing of the squad, so what incentive is there to fire the manager in the middle of a outspoken rebuilding project that is currently going according to plan? Do we need a new direction?

No!
What we need is to evaluate every step of the way and make sure we’re moving forward in our preferred direction. That‘s the hard part. It’s easy to want to take short cuts and jump over one step of the progress.

 

[Bilbo]

What structure means in reality is the opposite of what you're alluding to (in which case nothing has changed indeed).

The point is that the general direction of the club should not change with the appointment of a single person. It's exactly what happened in the post-Fergie years. We sacked Moyes and got Van Gaal who made us play a completely different brand of football, spent hundreds of millions of pounds and incurred dozens of ins and outs to build his own squad. Then Van Gaal was sacked and Mourinho did the same. Then Mourinho was sacked and Solskjaer did the same again.

It's not sacking the manager that is the problem. It's the fact that the direction of the club is completely subject to the whim of a single person that is the problem.

The club should have a philosophy of its own, be it playing quick attacking football, emphasizing local young talents, etc.. Whatever it is, we should stick to it in the long term, and try to find coaches and directors that can maximize the results while adhering to the club's principle. What this means is we simply don't hire a Moyes/Van Gaal/Mourinho in the first place. This also means if Solskjaer fails to reach the results required, the club should just sack him and find another coach that can get the results while playing attacking football and developing the youth instead.

We as a club aren't just too emotional with the manager, we're too emotional at everything related to football. We need to be professional, which means we have to enter the age of specialization.

If "backing the manager" means to let the manager dictate absolutely everything, from the daily training details to the general direction of the club, then it's the last thing we should do.

I agree with everything you've said. We have 100% lacked that continuity in our vision. I guess I just disagree that a DoF is the answer to all of those problems.

I think people have an overly romantic idea about what the position really is, whereas my view is that it is just as likely to fail as a head coach would be, and if the club aren't certain about what they want that role to be, or they do but they just haven't found the right person, it would be better that we dont create that role within the club.

Woodward has made mistakes and has to learn from them. I would sincerely hope that we are using the wisdom of the likes of Ferguson, Gill and Charlton, all of whom are still a regular presence around the club.

 

[RedStarUnited]

Bayern sacked Kovac when they were 4th in the leauge and got pummeled 5-1 in their home league. We sacked José when we were 6th in the league. Both managers were sacked on the back end of good seasons, after the relationship between club and manager became unbearable.

For Bayern to lose 5-1 in a league where they are essentially Celtic in Scotland, is never going to end well. At least in the Premier League, clubs do occasionally beat any other club on any given day.

Conte is leaving over "mutual consent". Which is the employment equalent of "You dont like us, and we don't like you"

He's never had a manager job more than 3 years (once) - Every other managerial appointment has been between 1-2 seasons. This is just an extremely demanding manager that works well in small doses until having to deal with a pissed of human being every day at work gets old instead of motivating.

Bayern won 5, drew 3 and lost 2 of their first 10 games. 4 points behind first, bad enough to sack the manager.

United won 5, drew 2 and lost 3. 11 points behind first but off-course that doesn't matter anymore because we have accepted we are now a top 4 team. So ignoring that, we are 5 points behind the 4th team which is more than Kovac situation but still Jose still keeps his job for another 7 games. By the time we sack him we are 20 points behind first and 9 points behind 4th.

RE Conte, yes he is the issue but apart from Chelsea. He is the one that walked away from his previous jobs. the clubs are happy and satisfied with him.

 

[Strelok]

(Hopefully not another Ole out thread...)

As I sit here and watch Bayern Munich celebrate winning the Champions League. I ask myself, would United have pulled a trigger and sacked a league and cup winning the coach in November?

That decision they made, was the catalyst to them having one of their best seasons ever. A lot of fans in here cant fathom the idea of Ole getting sacked this summer for a better coach, why?

Even when we have sacked managers we have waited until the absolute last moment. Jose should have been sacked in the summer before he went. Nothing in that summer said the following season was going to be successful.

No I don't think so.

Basically all coaches were sacked because they failed to achieve the minimum expectation of their board. So before comparing to Bayern we should at least have an idea what's the minimum expectation on their coaches and Ole. It's not the same I think.

 

[James Ward]

I'd probably sack Ole and get in Pochetino now.

Ole's been okayish with transfers but that's about it. I'd probably cash in on AWB now and recoup a lot of what we spent.

 

[Jaqen H'ghar]

As a club the word I would use is "cautious" with managers, but when the club feels its objectives aren't met they are ruthless.

@JPRouve posted a good point in the first page about how the board waits until the situation can not be salvaged before firing the manager, and I agree, but I think it's more inexperience and incompetence than sentimentality.

As a fan base I think we are emotional in that we are impatient and overly critical of managers, while not being critical enough of the board and players.

 

[RedStarUnited]

No I don't think so.

Basically all coaches were sacked because they failed to achieve the minimum expectation of their board. So before comparing to Bayern we should at least have an idea what's the minimum expectation on their coaches and Ole. It's not the same I think.

What is the minimum expectation for Bayern then, winning CL? because the guy before Kovac also got sacked after winning the league too.

 

[He'sRaldo]

The ultimate answer is yes and a big cause of it is the lack of division of labour which gives the manager responsibilities he doesn't need.

In most clubs everyone knows that the manager is in charge of the football on the pitch, and that is mostly what he's judged on. Because of our poor division of labour the manager seems to be in charge of a lot more, especially regarding direction of the club and transfers, and we fans include that in our judgement.

Once we realize that the most important thing for a manager is on pitch performances, we'll start to delegate responsibilities better and hopefully be more decisive and less sentimental as a result.

 

[Strelok]

What is the minimum expectation for Bayern then, winning CL? because the guy before Kovac also got sacked after winning the league too.

Of course not.

Imo apart from winning their league, which is too easy a Bayern coach would have some objective along the line of reaching a CL quarter/ semi final with a look to win it. In other word, reach a quarter/ semi final and if you lose, do not lose too badly. And it depends from time to time according to how their board evaluates their strength I think.

I don't know much about why Kovac is sacked though. I don't watch or follow the Bundes.

 

[GazTheLegend]

I think you gents have it all wrong, with due respect.

Bayern Munich don't face the same challenges we do: literally the KGB owning Chelsea circa the 2000's, oil money Man City later on.

If those two clubs weren't funded, we would have had so many more players from the league and dominated similarly to Barcelona and Real Madrid.

Think of the names we lost or missed out on. Hazard. Nasri. Tevez to name but three off the top of my head.

And speaking of our league, we had a huge number of bullshit decisions go against us on numerous occasions - the premier League never wanted us to be successful to the degree we were. They stopped us """"poaching"""" players who lived more than a certain number of miles away (so we had no more Beckham's for instance) and set us back years.

Without the insane oil money clubs, our situation is completely different. You can blame the manager as much as you like but it's all about the players on the pitch in the end, and even Ferguson struggled against the billionaires funding his rivals while the FA fecked us about banning our best players for dubious sending offs in friendlies (ffs the Ajax tournament still grinds my gears) and SWEARING.

Coming third in the league is sadly the best you can hope for when you're up against bullshit funding from the oil tycoons.

Obviously you'd hope that you can do better - and maybe we could. But we could be doing much, much worse.

We are a titan but we are playing a game that doesn't have the same rules for us as it does for others. PSG and Bayern are the extreme aspects of a world where you are just an oil villains sportwashing project versus a team that has utterly no rivals and faces no such level of funding in their own league.

 

[Tom Cato]

I'd probably sack Ole and get in Pochetino now.

Ole's been okayish with transfers but that's about it. I'd probably cash in on AWB now and recoup a lot of what we spent.

Who are you replacing AWB with?

 

[Foxbatt]

Does anyone think rationally that Ole is a better coach than Klopp, Pep, Flick, Nagelsmann Garcia, Tuchel or Lopetegui?
This is a genuine question.

 

[Freeney]

Bayern are an ambitious club, we’re not. People in here celebrating a top 4 place tells the whole story.

 

[Amir]

Bayern Munich don't face the same challenges we do: literally the KGB owning Chelsea circa the 2000's, oil money Man City later on.

If those two clubs weren't funded, we would have had so many more players from the league and dominated similarly to Barcelona and Real Madrid.

We would have dominated under Fergie. Since then? We've been our own worst enemies. Even when we signed really good players, we managed to feck it up.

I don't mind if United aren't the best. All I can ask is for the club to be the best it can, and we've been nowhere near since Fergie.

 

[Amir]

I agree with everything you've said. We have 100% lacked that continuity in our vision. I guess I just disagree that a DoF is the answer to all of those problems.

I think people have an overly romantic idea about what the position really is, whereas my view is that it is just as likely to fail as a head coach would be, and if the club aren't certain about what they want that role to be, or they do but they just haven't found the right person, it would be better that we dont create that role within the club.

Woodward has made mistakes and has to learn from them. I would sincerely hope that we are using the wisdom of the likes of Ferguson, Gill and Charlton, all of whom are still a regular presence around the club.

I don't think a DOF is a solution to all problems. Can he give you continuity when you change managers? Yes, but of course, DOF's can leave as well.

I do not believe a DOF is must in a football club. I do, however, believe you need some football knowledge higher up than the manager, people who'll be able to select the right manager or, if needed, replace him when it's clear it's not working. Other clubs may have CEOs or other people in non-football roles who have that understanding, and that can be enough. We clearly do not have that, so the extra layer of DOF may be vital.

 

[Buster15]

Does anyone think rationally that Ole is a better coach than Klopp, Pep, Flick, Nagelsmann Garcia, Tuchel or Lopetegui?
This is a genuine question.

Genuine answer.
NO.

 

[Buster15]

I'd probably sack Ole and get in Pochetino now.

Ole's been okayish with transfers but that's about it. I'd probably cash in on AWB now and recoup a lot of what we spent.

Is AWB our No1 problem?

 

[Gator Nate]

Sack Woodward, Sell United

 

[Hoof the ball]

Does anyone think rationally that Ole is a better coach than Klopp, Pep, Flick, Nagelsmann Garcia, Tuchel or Lopetegui?
This is a genuine question.

We know he's not. You can see this by observing United's attacking patterns. If he had the nous to coach complex attacking movements then we would have seen them by now in-game. He has a general understanding of what he wants to do, and is popular with the players.

 

[Stacks]

I can't really complain with how we have sacked managers tbh. I think we generally give them a chance to meet the season objectives and if they don't they get the chop

 

[padzilla]

We've just generally been awful with every decision about how the club is run from top to bottom since 2013.

 

[NoLogo]

Exactly the DoF can then take inputs regarding what type of player the coach wants instead of chasing big names. The only problem is choosing a correct DoF. If we screw that up like we did the manager appointments, then we will be fecked.

Of course picking a DoF can go wrong, see Barca.

 

[FMlegend]

We can't compare ourselves to Bayern München. They probably have the best team in the world currently. We have not been a great team for years, comparably similar to Liverpool a few years ago.

Jürgen Klopp's seasons at Liverpool:
8.
4.
4.
2.
1.
In his first few seasons they played their best football against the top 6. Liverpool hit the woodwork a record number of times, wasted chances and dropped points against lower placed teams. They had a thin squad and were reliant on their first 11 after getting rid of subpar players.

I want to see where Solskjær can take United over the next few years. Even if he falls short, I think future managers will reap the benefits of the long term planning that Ole Gunnar is doing.

 

[Adnan]

Of course picking a DoF can go wrong, see Barca.

Their problem is their board rather than the DoF.

 

[NoLogo]

Their problem is their board rather than the DoF.

Yeah that too, especially their president seems to be a colossal feck up.

 

[RedStarUnited]

I think you gents have it all wrong, with due respect.

Bayern Munich don't face the same challenges we do: literally the KGB owning Chelsea circa the 2000's, oil money Man City later on.

If those two clubs weren't funded, we would have had so many more players from the league and dominated similarly to Barcelona and Real Madrid.

Think of the names we lost or missed out on. Hazard. Nasri. Tevez to name but three off the top of my head.

And speaking of our league, we had a huge number of bullshit decisions go against us on numerous occasions - the premier League never wanted us to be successful to the degree we were. They stopped us """"poaching"""" players who lived more than a certain number of miles away (so we had no more Beckham's for instance) and set us back years.

Without the insane oil money clubs, our situation is completely different. You can blame the manager as much as you like but it's all about the players on the pitch in the end, and even Ferguson struggled against the billionaires funding his rivals while the FA fecked us about banning our best players for dubious sending offs in friendlies (ffs the Ajax tournament still grinds my gears) and SWEARING.

Coming third in the league is sadly the best you can hope for when you're up against bullshit funding from the oil tycoons.

Obviously you'd hope that you can do better - and maybe we could. But we could be doing much, much worse.

We are a titan but we are playing a game that doesn't have the same rules for us as it does for others. PSG and Bayern are the extreme aspects of a world where you are just an oil villains sportwashing project versus a team that has utterly no rivals and faces no such level of funding in their own league.

Wow, You would think Liverpool didn't just win the league.

 

[Amir]

I can't really complain with how we have sacked managers tbh. I think we generally give them a chance to meet the season objectives and if they don't they get the chop

So if Van Gaal got an extra point and beat City to fourth place in 2016, suddenly his work would have been worth keeping him? Surely decisions have to be deeper than that. Also, with the way things were going with Mourinho in the summer of 2018, it was so clear the next season was going to be a disaster. But we're not proactive at all.

 

[Denis79]

Bayern were 4th in a league they pretty much own and got smashed 5-1 by Eintracht Frankfurt right before they made the change. You can’t compare with United.

We would never sack as long as we were in a CL spot. Bayern is run by pure football people that are fans and have the Bayern DNA in their blood, they see football and 'success' very differently than our Woodward.

 

[L1nk]

Is this even a question, yes, we are, it's the same with players as well. Everybody is far too emotional when it comes to this club because they are stuck on the romance.

It's how players like Lingard have been able to be part of this club so long despite never being the required quality, because he's a local lad from the academy. The fans are stuck on the romance of giving managers excessive amounts of time, where as clubs like Real Madrid and Bayern Munich stay at the top because they are ruthless and know when it isn't working with a manager, even if the season was good by anybody's else's standards. And even if it is, they still seek out to improve the position whenever possible. We'd just twiddle our thumbs and wait for the good exciting managers to find new clubs before we even bother to think about doing something should a change of manager be required.

Case in point Ole, we were far too quick to give him a permanent contract and regardless of what you think about him right now, im sure everyone can agree on that in hindsight, but of course, wrapped up in the emotion and the romance of him being an ex player and the fairytale like quality behind it all, the fans and Woodward wanted it to happen, do he was appointed permanent way too soon on the back of a pretty piss poor performance vs PSG despite us getting the win. Yet if we had stayed the course and thought about it logically, kept him on until the end as a temp appointment, we would have had a much better scope of the situation and the likelihood is our manager could have been Thomas Tuchel for example, who was available that summer, or we could have still appointed Ole, either way, it just goes to show you really

 

[Strelok]

So if Van Gaal got an extra point and beat City to fourth place in 2016, suddenly his work would have been worth keeping him? Surely decisions have to be deeper than that. Also, with the way things were going with Mourinho in the summer of 2018, it was so clear the next season was going to be a disaster. But we're not proactive at all.

No tbh I hate his football, boring af but imo if he managed to get top 4 that season he'd stay.

 

[DarkLord]

We can't compare ourselves to Bayern München. They probably have the best team in the world currently. We have not been a great team for years, comparably similar to Liverpool a few years ago.

Jürgen Klopp's seasons at Liverpool:
8.
4.
4.
2.
1.
In his first few seasons they played their best football against the top 6. Liverpool hit the woodwork a record number of times, wasted chances and dropped points against lower placed teams. They had a thin squad and were reliant on their first 11 after getting rid of subpar players.

I want to see where Solskjær can take United over the next few years. Even if he falls short, I think future managers will reap the benefits of the long term planning that Ole Gunnar is doing.

I disagree. Before Hansi Flick took over, Bayern was literally in "crisis". Muller, Boateng and Neur were seen as finished. They just lost the DFL Supercup to Dortmund, their results were inconsistent in the league and everyone thought this would be the year their stranglehold on the league would be over as the league was a lot more competitive with Leipzig, Dortmund, Monchengladbach all exchanging the top positions. Then Flick took over and they were back to their best. A change of coach, a good manager can do wonders.

 

[RashysTekkers]

I disagree. Before Hansi Flick took over, Bayern was literally in "crisis". Muller, Boateng and Neur were seen as finished. They just lost the DFL Supercup to Dortmund, their results were inconsistent in the league and everyone thought this would be the year their stranglehold on the league would be over as the league was a lot more competitive with Leipzig, Dortmund, Monchengladbach all exchanging the top positions. Then Flick took over and they were back to their best. A change of coach, a good manager can do wonders.

Yeah "crisis". Like winning the Bundesliga for how many years in the running ? Their "crisis" early in the season is just a patch of bad form overblown by the media and fans.

 

[Adnan]

I disagree. Before Hansi Flick took over, Bayern was literally in "crisis". Muller, Boateng and Neur were seen as finished. They just lost the DFL Supercup to Dortmund, their results were inconsistent in the league and everyone thought this would be the year their stranglehold on the league would be over as the league was a lot more competitive with Leipzig, Dortmund, Monchengladbach all exchanging the top positions. Then Flick took over and they were back to their best. A change of coach, a good manager can do wonders.

Or we could say the work done behind the scenes by Hasan Salihamidžić wasn't being put to best use by Kovac until he was sacked and replaced by little known Hansi Flick as head coach.

 

[RedDevil@84]

Apples and Oranges really. We are not in a league where winning it is minimum expectation. Besides, once players want a coach out, he is a goner.

 

[Dr. StrangeHate]

Moyes can manage Bayern Munich and they'll win the league. No other team really threatens them, so they can afford to change managers whenever they want.

If Bayern plays with 10 men all season they still win the league. Dortmund threatened them for a bit and Bayern absolutely ripped them apart by tapping Gotze and Lewendosky in successive seasons and getting them on a free. Bayern hit the jackpot with no full foreign ownership allowed. They are never going to lose a league again. They just have to concentrate on CL every season. We can't compare Bayern to us, totally different competitive field.

 

[Strelok]

If Bayern plays with 10 men all season they still win the league. Dortmund threatened them for a bit and Bayern absolutely ripped them apart by tapping Gotze and Lewendosky in successive seasons and getting them on a free. Bayern hit the jackpot with no full foreign ownership allowed. They are never going to lose a league again. They just have to concentrate on CL every season. We can't compare Bayern to us, totally different competitive field.

Agreed.

And imo we need to look deeper to see the difference. It's really different between the two clubs, two leagues, two nations.

First thing we should look into is the objectives at the biggest level, nation wide. Some people may think the PL is bigger than FA or Bayern is bigger than DFB but it's not true at all. All the clubs must work under the regulations of FA or DFB, they're basically the law. Imo the general objective of FA and DFB is pretty much the same, to develop English and German football. But imo how they do it is very different.

Imo FA believe in the competitiveness between their own domestic football clubs. So they made regulations to ensure that. For example the rule of clubs can not recruit youngster who live above a certain radius from the club. Or they welcome foreign money to invest into English clubs.

DFB on other hand believe in the competitiveness at European level I think. So they try to concentrate everything into one club to make them competitive in the CL . And it's Bayern. They made regulations to ensure Bayer's monopoly within their domestic league. For example they don't welcome foreign money to invest into German clubs. In doing so they can have a core group of best German players play regularly together at Bayern. Instead of having their core players playing in 5,6 clubs like England. Which imo is much better for the preparation of their national team in World Cup or Euro. They also can be more patient in developing young players as Bundes is not tough and result demanding like the PL.

It's just very different between United and Bayern I think. Bayern is always expected to do well in the CL, not only by the club but also by DFB I think.

 

[Skills]

We would never sack as long as we were in a CL spot. Bayern is run by pure football people that are fans and have the Bayern DNA in their blood, they see football and 'success' very differently than our Woodward.

Their fans also see football and success differently than our fans too.

Success for our fans is having a manager play father figure for 20 years. Success for them is winning while playing great football.

 

[Amir]

No tbh I hate his football, boring af but imo if he managed to get top 4 that season he'd stay.

But would that have been a good decision? I'd say it would have been a totally idiotic and shallow way to judge a manager's work.

 

[Strelok]

But would that have been a good decision? I'd say it would have been a totally idiotic and shallow way to judge a manager's work.

From a fan perspective of course not. But you need to think about this from Ed's perspective.

And why it's idiotic to judge a manager's work based on his achievements and the board's expectations? In your opinion how the work of a manager should be judged then?