Are we too pragmatic in the big games?

[Adam-Utd]

I think we got the defensive side of our game right, but we really need to stop trying to counter attack fast at every opportunity. We end up trying to force it when 1-2 extra passes would be the better option - instead of we just givet the ball straight back.

The first 30 minute period all stemmed from that issue. You have to get the balance right of learning when it's your time to get some possession, and when is a perfect moment to go for the kill with a quick attack.

It felt like the moments no counter attacks were on we actually became more dangerous by just playing more naturally.

 

[Borys]

There are two ways to approach big games:

• if you have strong midfield (meaning you can control the game), it's more safe to keep the ball - can't do that with Fred and McTominay. They are good enough against most sides, and they do the job even against most 3-man midfields but it's not enough for the big boys. I don't think we have better options, unless we use Matic instead of Scott but it seems Ole doesn't trust him on top level.
• if you have in-form forwards and decent defensive line, you can give away possession but rely on strikers to convert one of a few good chances created through counter attacks.

At this point neither option works for us, so I guess this season we need to accept there will be a lot of poor performances against top sides. It probably means we have a chance in the league (considering our record against smaller sides), but we're not winning any cup this season.

 

[Schmeichel's Cartwheel]

Showed this again yesterday. Took Ole far too long to realise the game was there to be won. Only started committing to attacks in the 75th minute. With a bit more bravery & ambition we come away with 3 points yesterday.

1 penalty goal in 6 against the big 6 this season is worrying.

 

[Schmeichel's Cartwheel]

Our central midfield is set up to stop the opposition but they aren’t that good at it. We need two midfielders.

Which is why I don’t understand why they play. They are there to nullify the opposition, yet they are bypassed against good teams, which basically means we’re playing with 9 seeing as they offer next to nothing on the ball. Might as well just play Donny & Pogba there, they won’t do any worse defensively & will offer far more creatively. I still fail to see what they do that makes them a nailed on starter. Fred makes some tackles & interceptions. Scott has a slight goal threat & fouls a lot. Am I missing anything?

 

[croadyman]

We definitely will need to win a couple out of Arsenal, Chelsea, City & Spurs away to stay in the race, yes I know we did excellently in these fixtures last season but title pressure is a very different animal to trying to get into the top 4, if we can avoid defeat across these matches then will have done exceptionally well in my opinion. We also still have the small matter of the scousers still to come to Old Trafford in May too but need something out of these games to ensure there is still something to play for by then.

 

[MUFC OK]

Almost certainly. We have world class players but play like Burnley on steroids, hoping to defend well for 90 and take one of our few chances. This was understandable with the likes of pereira, lingard starting for us but we need to ditch this mentality now.

 

[James35]

Showed this again yesterday. Took Ole far too long to realise the game was there to be won. Only started committing to attacks in the 75th minute. With a bit more bravery & ambition we come away with 3 points yesterday.

1 penalty goal in 6 against the big 6 this season is worrying.

Add to the blank v City in the league cup, it really is.

If we fail to beat Liverpool in the FA Cup it will only emphasise this further...especially if we can't even score a goal from open play.

 

[eire-red]

I think we got the defensive side of our game right, but we really need to stop trying to counter attack fast at every opportunity. We end up trying to force it when 1-2 extra passes would be the better option - instead of we just givet the ball straight back.

The first 30 minute period all stemmed from that issue. You have to get the balance right of learning when it's your time to get some possession, and when is a perfect moment to go for the kill with a quick attack.

It felt like the moments no counter attacks were on we actually became more dangerous by just playing more naturally.

We definitely overdid it by trying to play counter attacking football every time we had the ball, and trying to release Rashford at every opportunity.

I think you take that chance when you play Fred and McTominay in midfield though. In the first half, neither are good enough to deal with the press and the game kind of bypassed them.

When we had more time and space in the middle as the game wore on, we could get the ball to McTominay and Fred, and build from there. I think we could have managed that first 30 minutes better with someone who is better on the ball in midfield, and knowing there is someone there who can control the game might have meant we were a little more thoughtful and patient with the ball.

That is the next step for this team. We should have created more than two clear cut chances against that back four for Liverpool. I think if we had got a grip of the game earlier in midfield, as we did in the third quarter, we could have created a few more openings, and maybe we could have taken one of them. That's the difference for me.

 

[romufc]

The only one with an agenda is you. We last beat City, Chelsea and spurs when there were fans in the stadium. I mean the Spurs game you mentioned was in 2019 FFS.

PSG and Leipzig were good results but all of that was undone by losing the more important second games and crashing out of the CL.

Oh, I am sorry that because the game was in 2019 December it doesnt count because only games in the last 6 months should count to see how good he is ?

For someone who has had good results in the past to having no clue ?

So the tactic has changed because there was fans in the stadium? Clearly you are lost. So he can only set up a team to score when fans are at the ground ?

 

[lex talionis]

I hate the fact that we were pragmatic against each of Chelsea, City and Liverpool, but certainly in the case of Chelsea we had recently been hammered by Spurs and were still not in form and there can be no complaints about how we took the game against City, but we missed an opportunity that was there against a diminished Liverpool side that was also out of form.

But at least we created chances in second half against Chelsea, but finishing let us down again.

 

[Nickelodeon]

We were poor against Arsenal and Chelsea. But yesterday, I feel the plan was there. Each of Bruno, Pogba and Rashford had a chance to win it for us. We wouldn’t get multiple chances to score against the top sides so we have to be clinical.

I don’t consider our tactical setup in big games to be too different from last season. We didn’t dominate the big games which we won. We defended well and took our chances. More of the same could’ve helped us this season too.

 

[UnofficialDevil]

Flip things around. If we had Maquire Lindelof and Bailly out and were playing with Pogba and Fred in defence, would a Liverpool side with a full squad and zero injuries be pragmatic or attack us to win? That's the difference.

 

[Raveneye]

Flip things around. If we had Maquire Lindelof and Bailly out and were playing with Pogba and Fred in defence, would a Liverpool side with a full squad and zero injuries be pragmatic or attack us to win? That's the difference.

Liverpool would attack regardless. They're drilled to play one style of football. It's not a fair comparison.

 

[dal]

It’s a balance of risk and on balance yesterday we should have won that game with those two chances.

We have a pragmatic manager but he’s malleable and even he knows yesterday we could have passed and kept the ball better in certain phases of the game.

I think we will always play this way to a certain extent against the top sides but I think we can all feel that in the not too distant future we will control the game more and insert more of our authority on the game.

Mentality is improving and 1-2 more signings and the team will have and command each other to have more authority on the ball, multiplier effect.

 

[Garethw]

We won’t win anything of note with Solskjær as boss. His approach to nearly every single game is cowardly.

He needs to grow a pair of balls and start taking some risks.

 

[El Jefe]

Oh, I am sorry that because the game was in 2019 December it doesnt count because only games in the last 6 months should count to see how good he is ?

For someone who has had good results in the past to having no clue ?

So the tactic has changed because there was fans in the stadium? Clearly you are lost. So he can only set up a team to score when fans are at the ground ?

Did you even read the OP or my initial post? Or did you just see criticism of Ole and draw for a blind defence.

The OP clearly states this season in his post. Even if we go back to last season, the teams that you mentioned we beat, we've played them all twice since we last beat them and haven't won any. I brought up the point about fans in the stadium to show how far back you had to dig for wins in the PL, but no surprise you missed that as you've seemed to miss the point of just about everything in this discussion.

Ole excelling in the big games last season was a trend just as its a trend he's underperforming this season. But go on and entertain yourself with more laughing emojis.

 

[Counterfactual]

We won’t win anything of note with Solskjær as boss. His approach to nearly every single game is cowardly.

He needs to grow a pair of balls and start taking some risks.

Really? We could've easily won yesterday and been four points clear at the top of the league, six clear of the defending champions. As it stands, we're still on top of the league. Unbeaten runs build momentum and confidence, and I think we're on a 12-match unbeaten league run at the moment.

 

[kidbob]

We beat plenty of the top teams last season. Difference then was that Greenwood, Rashford and Martial were all in good form. Don't think approach is necessarily the problem because until we get a proper CDM and a CM who can control a game then we won't be able to comfortably go toe to toe with the best teams. However if our forwards can hit the same form as last season I'd fancy us to get results in the return matches in the second half of the season in a few of the games. Also in perspective Spurs has really been the only game we deserved to lose on balance of play and that was with a red card and early season fitness issues.

 

[MU655]

So at the start of the season, even with VVD's injury alot of people said we are still way behind Liverpool...

Well fast forward 4 months and fans are crying that we didnt all out attack Liverpool.. are we being serious here?

For us to go to Anfield, to have the better chances shows progress, which is what we have asked for from Ole. Why is the goal post moving now?

What people's expectations were at the start of the season is irrelevant as it is based on predictions. Most people would have predicted Liverpool being far stronger than they are. I thought they wouldn't get as many points as last season, but they are on course to get only 72 points after getting 99 last season. How many people thought the drop would be this big? I bet there were very few.

They are on course to drop 27 points on last season, which is massive. On top of that, I bet most were expecting City to improve, but they are only on course to get 78 points; a drop of 3 points.

It isn't moving the goalposts; it is reassessing expectations based on predictions being incorrect. Do you really think we shouldn't expect to finish ahead of Liverpool when they are only on target to get 72 points? We got 66 last season, and if we can't do that then we have not improved at all.

If we can't even improve by 6 points, you would have to question whether we are actually getting anywhere.

 

[Schmeichel's Cartwheel]

We won’t win anything of note with Solskjær as boss. His approach to nearly every single game is cowardly.

He needs to grow a pair of balls and start taking some risks.

This will be a very very unpopular opinion on here, but I agree with you. He needs to be much braver. If he was we would still be in the champions league. The set up in every game against good opposition this season has been negative.

 

[georgipep]

For everyone who is interested in the tactics of yesterday's game, I strongly advise going through this twitter thread:

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[PoTMS]

We won’t win anything of note with Solskjær as boss. His approach to nearly every single game is cowardly.

He needs to grow a pair of balls and start taking some risks.

I agree that we will struggle to win things due to his tactical limitations. He seems to have gone backwards in the big games while being much better against the small ones. He has proved us wrong in the past, let's hope he can prove us wrong again.

 

[Crackers]

For everyone who is interested in the tactics of yesterday's game, I strongly advise going through this twitter thread:

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Thanks, that's a really informative read.

 

[croadyman]

Showed this again yesterday. Took Ole far too long to realise the game was there to be won. Only started committing to attacks in the 75th minute. With a bit more bravery & ambition we come away with 3 points yesterday.

1 penalty goal in 6 against the big 6 this season is worrying.

Yeah we need to put something in the win column against the big six this season to get that belief we can take 3 points in these games rather than just draw, hopefully that can start when we visit the Emirates on the 30 Jan where we haven't won since 2017.

 

[Borys]

We beat plenty of the top teams last season. Difference then was that Greenwood, Rashford and Martial were all in good form. Don't think approach is necessarily the problem because until we get a proper CDM and a CM who can control a game then we won't be able to comfortably go toe to toe with the best teams. However if our forwards can hit the same form as last season I'd fancy us to get results in the return matches in the second half of the season in a few of the games. Also in perspective Spurs has really been the only game we deserved to lose on balance of play and that was with a red card and early season fitness issues.

Yeah my view as well.

We're top of the league with neither of the attacking players performing. To be honest I think part of the problem is Ole throwing Rashford left right and middle, Martial left or Centre but he can't finish his breakfast on current form.

Let's start using same players in same positions for a while and see what happens.

 

[croadyman]

Yeah my view as well.

We're top of the league with neither of the attacking players performing. To be honest I think part of the problem is Ole throwing Rashford left right and middle, Martial left or Centre but he can't finish his breakfast on current form.

Let's start using same players in same positions for a while and see what happens.

Should Cavani maybe start the big six games for rest of the season if he is fit

 

[lost7]

I think the main issue we had yesterday was that we had no composure to play passes in between the lines for most of the game. And I would attribute that to the lack of creativity in our midfield in the big games. I would like to see the current in form Pogba in the middle of the park instead of one between McTominay/Fred. The Arsenal game away will be an opportunity for us to be a bit more expansive with our football because drawing every big game won't be good enough to win the league

 

[Theonas]

We can't not play deep in the big games. To play on the front foot again the best teams, you need to be very strong with your possession and positional game. To do that, you need to have that mindset as a team from day one and accept that it will take time coaching wise to implement efficiently. That is why even in their first seasons, Klopp and Guardiola were not playing deep until they get the right players. Having that composure to play higher up without looking vulnerable is easily the hardest thing to do in football which is why you need to commit to it, and not to mention have the very best coaches to implement it. I mean, Guardiola was not getting pursued by every big club in the continent because of his motivational skills or fashion sense, it was because he was perceived to be one of the very few that can do that and win.

OGS simply can't do that either for lack of trying to lack of competence which means the only way we can play a bit higher under him against these top teams is either through having individual quality that is significantly better than theirs because that can always nullify strategy that structure. Problem with that is that we don't live in the '90s anymore where we can have significantly better players than our opponents or wait for their level to dip and go back to how the PL was last decade until around 2017.

 

[G-MUFC]

I've always felt for years that we rarely play on the front foot in big games. We're particularly over pragmatic in European games, especially when you take into account that we're arguably the biggest football club in the world and we spend almost £100M on some of our players. It's really frustrating when we then have to watch a team like Leipzig pass us off the pitch!

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

We've definitely made progress under Ole, but this has always been my biggest question mark with Ole.

Can our positional play and possession improve to the point that we take it to teams in big games? I just don't know.

 

[Theonas]

We've definitely made progress under Ole, but this has always been my biggest question mark with Ole.

Can our positional play and possession improve to the point that we take it to teams in big games? I just don't know.

If it does, it will be the exception to the rule. No manager or team that can play to that level wait until they get the right player or solidify or whatever before they try to play that way. Even Real Madrid with Modric, Kroos and Ronaldo couldn't really hone their positional game to play on the front foot in the big games. Zidane is on the record talking about it being the next target for his, he was talking about the double winners in 2017. They are still incapable of playing that way.

 

[Schmeichel's Cartwheel]

I've always felt for years that we rarely play on the front foot in big games. We're particularly over pragmatic in European games, especially when you take into account that we're arguably the biggest football club in the world and we spend almost £100M on some of our players. It's really frustrating when we then have to watch a team like Leipzig pass us off the pitch!

We did this very effectively under Fergie in big away games. But we never ever parked the bus at home under him, something Ole has been guilty of several times now. “Get a draw away, beat them at home” worked wonders for Fergie for years.

 

[Matt851]

We are definitely too cautious. I really hope ole uses the fa cup game against liverpool as a chance to tey a more expansive game plan including trying dvb instead of one of mcfred

 

[Foxbatt]

I do not agree that we should have attacked all out. We played a good tactical game. It is down to individuals players to get things right. If I have an issue with Ole is that he is letting Rashford have too much leeway. His decision making is poor and Ole has pointed out that in his post match but I do not know if it was about Rashford or Pogba's goal attempt. It is the dropped points against the smaller teams that has hurt us. Yes we were horrible against Spurs and Arsenal but we need to beat Arsenal in the away fixture and Spurs too.
Maybe we need to start Cavani and Martial and bring on Rashford as a sub?

 

[croadyman]

I do not agree that we should have attacked all out. We played a good tactical game. It is down to individuals players to get things right. If I have an issue with Ole is that he is letting Rashford have too much leeway. His decision making is poor and Ole has pointed out that in his post match but I do not know if it was about Rashford or Pogba's goal attempt. It is the dropped points against the smaller teams that has hurt us. Yes we were horrible against Spurs and Arsenal but we need to beat Arsenal in the away fixture and Spurs too.
Maybe we need to start Cavani and Martial and bring on Rashford as a sub?

Yeah already said in the Eddy thread that he needs to be starting the remaining big six games as he missed nearly all of them in the first half of the season for various reasons

 

[Longshanks]

We have lacked composure in attacking areas in the big games this season

There are two ways to approach big games:

• if you have strong midfield (meaning you can control the game), it's more safe to keep the ball - can't do that with Fred and McTominay. They are good enough against most sides, and they do the job even against most 3-man midfields but it's not enough for the big boys. I don't think we have better options, unless we use Matic instead of Scott but it seems Ole doesn't trust him on top level.
• if you have in-form forwards and decent defensive line, you can give away possession but rely on strikers to convert one of a few good chances created through counter attacks.

At this point neither option works for us, so I guess this season we need to accept there will be a lot of poor performances against top sides. It probably means we have a chance in the league (considering our record against smaller sides), but we're not winning any cup this season.

Actually Mctom and Fred played pretty well on sunday other than getting overun in the first 20 minutes, once the game settled they did there jobs very well, the issue was when they gave the ball to the more creative players who would then instantly give it away trying to do something impossible or play a sloppy pass.

The issue this season in the big games has been the forward players have not turned up and been poor, the midfield and defender have been doing there jobs well enough but too many moves have been breaking down with the creative players.

 

[romufc]

What people's expectations were at the start of the season is irrelevant as it is based on predictions. Most people would have predicted Liverpool being far stronger than they are. I thought they wouldn't get as many points as last season, but they are on course to get only 72 points after getting 99 last season. How many people thought the drop would be this big? I bet there were very few.

They are on course to drop 27 points on last season, which is massive. On top of that, I bet most were expecting City to improve, but they are only on course to get 78 points; a drop of 3 points.

It isn't moving the goalposts; it is reassessing expectations based on predictions being incorrect. Do you really think we shouldn't expect to finish ahead of Liverpool when they are only on target to get 72 points? We got 66 last season, and if we can't do that then we have not improved at all.

If we can't even improve by 6 points, you would have to question whether we are actually getting anywhere.

Okay, let me ask you a question. When was the last time either when we were brilliant or not so good did we go to Anfield and it was a walk in the park?

Once under LVG but even under Fergie, we always struggle at Anfield. To say we should have attacked them more is pure hindsight.

 

[Counterfactual]

drawing every big game won't be good enough to win the league

It certainly could be. We're roughly in that position now, despite losing to Spurs and Arsenal! Had they been draws, we'd be be four points clear of City who have a game in hand, so we wouldn't be catchable.

Drawing v top teams and collecting a lot of points against the rest certainly could win us the league.

 

[Bilbo]

The issue this season in the big games has been the forward players have not turned up and been poor, the midfield and defender have been doing there jobs well enough but too many moves have been breaking down with the creative players.

This is undoubtedly true in the recent games against City and Liverpool. People are naturally going to look at the McFred pairing because they are perceived as being the weak links, where in actual fact those two are giving us the foundation to be a solid side that are containing these teams.

The issue is that our creative players are not making the most of the opportunities presented to them

 

[RoyH1]

I felt that we could have had a go at Liverpool, but I can understand if Ole wants to be cautious in these rivalry games. Getting the point with Liverpool was a good result for us.