Are we too pragmatic in the big games?

[Glorio]

I think Ole's approach is not to give away 3 pointd against the big sides first, with a slight hope that we may actually nick 3 points here and there with our pacy and usually dangerous frontline. I don't necessarily have an issue with that at this point - if we perfect the art of the flat track bully. SAF was usually similar against peak Arsenal mind.

I can sort of understand his approach especially since the few times we've tried to go toe to toe, we've come unstuck. My big issue is that when we do have the ball, we have to have more courage and we don't. When we do have possession, we have to play like an actual competent side, however we play like a league one side with a speed merchant up top, so everything is a long ball. The players' collective minds are caught in a loop where no one wants the ball for more than 2 seconds - just hoof it in the general direction of Rashford and hope.

This is where Ole's in game management can improve a lot (I think!). We don't have to wait till half time to try and sort things out, just yell at them to calm down, take an extra touch, trust the team mates around you, and assess their options properly - Bruno being the chief culprit in these situations. I also believe Bruno should drop into midfield in these games because what invariably happens is that Fred and McTom get outnumbered.

 

[Glorio]

I felt that we could have had a go at Liverpool, but I can understand if Ole wants to be cautious in these rivalry games. Getting the point with Liverpool was a good result for us.

Besides Liverpool were not as depleted as everyone says - they were missing CBs, yes, but all the rest of their big hitters were on the pitch. It's on Klopp if he decided to play some of his midfield in defence.

 

[Infra-red]

Besides Liverpool were not as depleted as everyone says - they were missing CBs, yes, but all the rest of their big hitters were on the pitch. It's on Klopp if he decided to play some of his midfield in defence.

Whilst that is true, it is also true that Liverpool have completely collapsed this season - they have 21 points fewer than they did this time last year and are on their longest run without a goal since 2005. Yes they have gone 68 league games without defeat at Anfield, but we'll probably never get a better opportunity to end that run, than last weekend. They were there for the taking on Sunday.

Indeed the standards being set by the big clubs this season are well below what we have come to expect in recent years. City have 9 points fewer than they did at this stage in 2019 and 14 points fewer than at the same stage in 2018. Our current points total is enough to see us top of the league, which is great - however, the same points would have had us sitting in 4th a year ago, 6th in 2019 and 4th in 2018.

With Liverpool and City falling away at the same time, there is a massive opportunity here for anyone who is prepared to step up and put them to the sword.

 

[romufc]

Whilst that is true, it is also true that Liverpool have completely collapsed this season - they have 21 points fewer than they did this time last year and are on their longest run without a goal since 2005. Yes they have gone 68 league games without defeat at Anfield, but we'll probably never get a better opportunity to end that run, than last weekend. They were there for the taking on Sunday.

Indeed the standards being set by the big clubs this season are well below what we have come to expect in recent years. City have 9 points fewer than they did at this stage in 2019 and 14 points fewer than at the same stage in 2018. Our current points total is enough to see us top of the league, which is great - however, the same points would have had us sitting in 4th a year ago, 6th in 2019 and 4th in 2018.

With Liverpool and City falling away at the same time, there is a massive opportunity here for anyone who is prepared to step up and put them to the sword.

It depends how you like to see this as well.

We can all talk about depleted Liverpool but the fact is the games they have come unstuck is not the big games, its the lesser teams.

Even though they have been relatively poor this season, look at their record in big games. Dominated Chelsea, Spurs, Arsenal, Leicester and even could have been 3-0 up at City.

So for people to take this Liverpool team lightly somewhat surprises me.

 

[Glorio]

It depends how you like to see this as well.

We can all talk about depleted Liverpool but the fact is the games they have come unstuck is not the big games, its the lesser teams.

Even though they have been relatively poor this season, look at their record in big games. Dominated Chelsea, Spurs, Arsenal, Leicester and even could have been 3-0 up at City.

So for people to take this Liverpool team lightly somewhat surprises me.

Agree. It could very easily have gone very wrong if we gave that front 3 space to run into by going in swinging considering our own forwards are not exactly firing on all cylinders.
If we lost, they would've gotten their mojo back, our confidence would be shot, and the headlines of Liverpool dumping the pretenders back in their place would be incessant.

With United vs Liverpool, the game takes a life of it's own and form goes out of the window. A point out of Anfield is a good result. Could our players have done better and shown more authority on that ball when we had it? Yes - 100%

 

[romufc]

Agree. It could very easily have gone very wrong if we gave that front 3 space to run into by going in swinging considering our own forwards are not exactly firing on all cylinders.
If we lost, they would've gotten their mojo back, our confidence would be shot, and the headlines of Liverpool dumping the pretenders back in their place would be incessant.

With United vs Liverpool, the game takes a life of it's own and form goes out of the window. A point out of Anfield is a good result. Could our players have done better and shown more authority on that ball when we had it? Yes - 100%

Yeah, we can all look at it that way saying we could have played better, which is true. But, I do not agree with people who say Ole got it wrong, Pogba should have played CM, Greenwood right. I get people don't like McTominay but we have to appreciate what he does in these games.

I will give you one classic example. Man City prior to Chelsea looked okay, nothing special. Lampard gave them space and in 30 minutes Man City found their mojo and have not looked back since.

We couldn't afford to do that.

 

[Glorio]

Whilst that is true, it is also true that Liverpool have completely collapsed this season - they have 21 points fewer than they did this time last year and are on their longest run without a goal since 2005. Yes they have gone 68 league games without defeat at Anfield, but we'll probably never get a better opportunity to end that run, than last weekend. They were there for the taking on Sunday.

Indeed the standards being set by the big clubs this season are well below what we have come to expect in recent years. City have 9 points fewer than they did at this stage in 2019 and 14 points fewer than at the same stage in 2018. Our current points total is enough to see us top of the league, which is great - however, the same points would have had us sitting in 4th a year ago, 6th in 2019 and 4th in 2018.

With Liverpool and City falling away at the same time, there is a massive opportunity here for anyone who is prepared to step up and put them to the sword.

With the points totals, I get it, however this concept of taking advantage suggests that we're somewhat immune to the environmental factors plaguing the league this year. We're playing under the same conditions as everyone else, so if anything, we've done really well already to be the ones bucking the trend in difficult circumstances. It would be unfair to compare points in this season to any other season as any sort of indicator.

We've already exceeded expectations especially when you consider we've been very consistent regardless since January last year. In fact, our most notable dip was this "strange" season and we seem to have recovered quite quickly. Based on this, one could argue that in a normal" season, we'd also have a better points tally than we do now.

Anyway, I've kinda drifted!
I suppose I'm just challenging the notion that we have an opportunity to take an advantage that others don't have, and we're not taking it. We're performing beyond expectations and it's more about us doing well than others doing badly. We're obviously stepping up, and that's commendable

 

[Infra-red]

With the points totals, I get it, however this concept of taking advantage suggests that we're somewhat immune to the environmental factors plaguing the league this year. We're playing under the same conditions as everyone else, so if anything, we've done really well already to be the ones bucking the trend in difficult circumstances. It would be unfair to compare points in this season to any other season as any sort of indicator.

We've already exceeded expectations especially when you consider we've been very consistent regardless since January last year. In fact, our most notable dip was this "strange" season and we seem to have recovered quite quickly. Based on this, one could argue that in a normal" season, we'd also have a better points tally than we do now.

Anyway, I've kinda drifted!
I suppose I'm just challenging the notion that we have an opportunity to take an advantage that others don't have, and we're not taking it. We're performing beyond expectations and it's more about us doing well than others doing badly. We're obviously stepping up, and that's commendable

COVID will have had an impact, I'm sure, but it also looks like City and Liverpool are in something of a transition phase at the moment. City have lost David Silva, while Aguero, Fernandinho, Walker and Gundogan are the wrong side of 30 (with Mahrez and De Bruyne also turning 30 in the next few months). Firminho, Wijnaldum, Henderson, Matip, Van Dijk, Thiago and Shaquiri are either already 30, or will be later this year (Mane and Salah will both turn 29).

Between them they have dominated the last three seasons in the Premier League, but performance is cyclical and players get fatigued by demanding coaches pushing stale concepts week after week for years. They both look like they're in need of freshening things up and a bit of a rebuild - that does provide a window of opportunity for someone to make a grab for this year's title (hopefully us).

 

[georgipep]

For everyone who is interested in the tactics of yesterday's game, I strongly advise going through this twitter thread:

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Here is another good analysis:

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[freshibal]

We rarely dominate the big teams in big games. last time i saw us do that was lvg vs pool.

we lost to city 1 - 6 under fergie, even the champions league winning team beat liverpool by a scrappy john oshea last minute goal

 

[georgipep]

Here is another good analysis:

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

And Pauly's analysis. He is strongly against the McFred midfield duo and believes we can do with one younger version of Matic next to Pogba against the big teams. I do not necessarily agree with that but nevertheless, a good read:
https://thebusbybabe.sbnation.com/2...aer-needs-to-be-bolder-against-big-six-rivals

 

[Hammondo]

We rarely dominate the big teams in big games. last time i saw us do that was lvg vs pool.

we lost to city 1 - 6 under fergie, even the champions league winning team beat liverpool by a scrappy john oshea last minute goal

We don't have the players to dominate the big teams.

 

[Devil may care]

We are, we build fences around the CB's with the fullbacks tucked in and McFred ahead of them, neither of whom have particularly good passing range so we become disjointed as the front 4 don't get service.

Obviously worries about Pogba getting caught on the ball deep and if he'll maintain deefensive discipline, and Matic's mobility seems to rule him out. If we added Pogba alongside McTominay or Fred we'd increase our chances of winning the big games but also run a bigger risk of losing, and so far when it comes to risk vs reward Ole hasn't chanced his arm.

 

[Adisa]

Might as well bump it. We aren't scoring.

 

[Di Maria's angel]

We're a borefest in most of our games bar 5 mins here and there.

 

[passing-wind]

We have nothing to build from no sustained possession, no movement that you can say is clearly instructed of the coaches. It's the fundamentals of a good that we lack hence we didn't play our way to the top of the table, we accumulated the results necessary through individuals coming to the forefront influencing games.

 

[BluesJr]

Yep. Yes. Horrible. Hate it.

 

[PoTMS]

Some coaching wouldn't go amiss. You need more than just individual talent to win these type of games.

 

[Idxomer]

Nothing better than what Mourinho served in his time at United, actually it's a bit worse.

 

[el3mel]

Welp.

6 games 1 goal from a penalty. That's a tragedy.

If you want to count Leicester then 7 games 3 goals.

 

[Roboc7]

Ole still hasn’t realised he needs to change his approach, but that’s Ole he’s very cautious and probably doesn’t really know what else to do.

 

[TMDaines]

If we had hoped that we had remedied our form against the Big Six that’s now non-penalty goals in only ONE (1) of our last 10 matches against the Big Six.

Edit: correction

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Clearly.

But if at first you don’t succeed, try try and try again.

 

[adexkola]

This game we should have scored 3 gilt edged chances, that's not down to Ole's approach

 

[G-MUFC]

You know your approach is completely wrong in the big games when David Luiz gets man of the match with barely a patch of sweat or mud on him.

 

[AshRK]

Nothing better than what Mourinho served in his time at United, actually it's a bit worse.

When did we ever have 56% possession against a big 6 club under him. Never. With better finishing and a more urgency we should have won this game.

 

[Ludens the Red]

If we had hoped that we had remedied our form against the Big Six that’s now non-penalty goals in only ONE (1) of our last 11 matches against the Big Six.

Shocking really, we were sold that Ole was delivering in these kind of games but post lockdown we’ve been so dire in these games.
Arsenal missing their three best players should have been the tonic to kick on, play with some conviction and expression. What we got was a damp squid.

I find it quite astonishing when people say they enjoy our football these days more than under Mourinho, barring the first five games post restart our football is generally very bad and uninspiring.
You can get away with playing like this if you get results ( as we were) but when you’re not, call a spade a spade, it’s fecking shite football. Worryingly that’s two games in a row where it looks clear to me we’ve not been right mentally.

 

[Tarrou]

I think the approach is correct, we're not that good yet that we can dominate these games

our finishing has let us down more than anything

when the game is there for the taking we don't have the confidence to go up a gear and go for it

this time last season we were 30 points back, it takes a big shift in mentality to go from that to going for the throat in these matches

 

[croadyman]

TOO SCARED

 

[Idxomer]

When did we ever have 56% possession against a big 6 club under him. Never. With better finishing and a more urgency we should have won this game.

Happened in Wenger's last season.

Against depleted Arsenal, he should've gone all out the 2nd half but he was happy to make it another even game.

 

[ivaldo]

Happened in Wenger's last season.

Against depleted Arsenal, he should've gone all out the 2nd half but he was happy to make it another even game.

We had 3 clear cut opportunities in and around the 6 yard box. I don't think it can be said we weren't trying to win it.

 

[AshRK]

Happened in Wenger's last season.

Against depleted Arsenal, he should've gone all out the 2nd half but he was happy to make it another even game.

So you are saying Ole asked cavani to miss the simple chance. Also, last time we played wenger at emirates we had 33 percent possession and de gea could have saved titanic that day.

 

[Idxomer]

We had 3 clear cut opportunities in and around the 6 yard box. I don't think it can be said we weren't trying to win it.

So you are saying Ole asked cavani to miss the simple chance. Also, last time we played wenger at emirates we had 33 percent possession and de gea could have saved titanic that day.

We missed chanced but so did they. Neither team has sustained any period of real pressure on the other in the 2nd half which made it an even game.

 

[Dirty Schwein]

Listening to Keane and Carragher and I couldn't agree more. It's like our team is scared of being in the title race and have got stage fright.

We settled for a draw against a team that's 8th and missing 3 of their best players.

We got into the race and I had so much optimism as Liverpool are missing their CBs and City barely have strikers.

 

[red4ever 79]

Listening to Keane and Carragher and I couldn't agree more. It's like our team is scared of being in the title race and have got stage fright.

We settled for a draw against a team that's 8th and missing 3 of their best players.

We got into the race and I had so much optimism as Liverpool are missing their CBs and City barely have strikers.

We also settled for a draw at Anfield against a team that has no CB's

 

[MU655]

I don't think it was pragmatic today; it was just the attack didn't turn up at all. Rashford, Martial, and Fernandes were poor. Greenwood did little when he came on and Cavani missed two great chances. You can't do that against better teams.

Fernandes rushes too much, and when he doesn't score or create, you can't say he has played anything but bad. Rashford is being too greedy and holding onto the ball too long. Martial just seems pretty useless at the moment. Greenwood is young. Cavani just poor finishing today.

Too many times this season they haven't done anything in the traditional top five games.

 

[Dirty Schwein]

We also settled for a draw at Anfield against a team that has no CB's

That's true, but there at least you can say the opposition are still one of the best teams in the country and can easily hurt you with Salah and Mane. Plus they were right below us in the league.

This was Arsenal ffs.

 

[Siorac]

I don't think this is comparable to the Liverpool game where we clearly focused on sitting back and trying to pick them off on the counter. This time we did try to take the game to Arsenal, at least in the first half.

I'm not sure what we were trying to do in the second half, mind you. That was just baffling. It's a measure of both our individual quality and the vulnerability of Arsenal that even while being completely and utterly all over the place, we had a couple of clear chances to win it.

 

[ivaldo]

We missed chanced but so did they. Neither team has sustained any period of real pressure on the other in the 2nd half which made it an even game.

Whether they missed chances or not is beside the point. In fact, it actually supports our claim that the team is actually commiting players further forward to get goals. The chances Arsenal did create were not nearly as good as the ones we forged.

 

[Schmeichel's Cartwheel]

Keane basically called us bottlers. It’s hard to disagree. We definitely lack something mentally.

The first half was encouraging, the second, not so much. Probably shouldve won but there’s little doubt Ole primary concern is to not lose rather than win.