Argentina NT | WC Discussion

Andrade

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It wasn't that long ago that Spain lost their opening match and went on to win the tournament. I wouldn't count Argentina out just yet.
That is literally the only time it has ever happened though. A few other teams have reached the final after losing their opening fixture however.
 

Sweet Square

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Correct. They have had some dodgy first round results in the World Cup and then ended up going far in the tournament. We'll see with this one.
If its anything like the 90’s World Cup, then Messi
will end up asking Spanish/Barcelona fans to put their “national interests” aside and instead to support him.

Kind of crazy Maradona did that with Napoli fans and it kind of worked with some.


The Swiss were 24th of the FIFA ranking coming into that World Cup... The goal they scored against Spain remained the only goal they scored in that edition. They got another point drawing 0-0 with Honduras (ranked 38th back then) And of course they didn't make it out of the group. So, No, Switzerland were not a top team in 2010...

https://en.fifaranking.net/ranking/?d=2010-05-26


In 2008, they went out 4th in the Euro GS (despite hosting the thing). And in 2012, they failed to make it to the Euros. They didn't even reach the playoff (failed behind Montenegro (2nd) and England(1st)).
Thanks for this.
 

Andrade

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Argentina should have hired a European coach. Same for Brazil. This has been clear for many years now, that the coaching standards in S. America are way below those in Europe. So unless they could have hired Simeone, they should have gone European.

It is bloody ridiculous seeing good South American teams getting shafted in World Cup cause of coaches who would struggle getting jobs in second leagues of top European countries. I mean, fecking Lionel Scaloni, who has not had a manager job before is their manager. And he is probably better than some of the dross they had since Pekerman.
Is this post satire? :lol:
 

Revan

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Is this post satire? :lol:
It is not. Brazil and Argentina have had a coaching problems for a long time. Unless they start producing good coaches, they should get European coaches. Or the World Cup will stay in Europe.
 

Andrade

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It is not. Brazil and Argentina have had a coaching problems for a long time. Unless they start producing good coaches, they should get European coaches. Or the World Cup will stay in Europe.
Complete and utter nonsense
 

Fenomeno9

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Argentina should have hired a European coach. Same for Brazil. This has been clear for many years now, that the coaching standards in S. America are way below those in Europe. So unless they could have hired Simeone, they should have gone European.

It is bloody ridiculous seeing good South American teams getting shafted in World Cup cause of coaches who would struggle getting jobs in second leagues of top European countries. I mean, fecking Lionel Scaloni, who has not had a manager job before is their manager. And he is probably better than some of the dross they had since Pekerman.
How many European coaches you think have the stature to coach Brazil or Argentina? IMO, only the elite European coaches can and they probably would rather coach their own national teams.
 

Revan

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Complete and utter nonsense
Maybe you are right. I think that clearly the standard of coaching has increased in Europe over the last 20 years, but not in South America. And while the players have been good, the coaching have let them down.

Since Brazil won it, the big two S American teams have lost almost every match against top European teams.

2006:
Brazil lost in their first match against a top European team (France). Argentina drew against Holland, and then lost against Germany.

2010:
Argentina lost in their first match against a top European team (Germany). Brazil drew against Portugal, then lost against Holland

2014:
Argentina defeated Belgium and Holland (yay), before losing to Germany (again). Brazil got humiliated by Germany and Holland.

2018:
Argentina got embarrassed by both Croatia and France. Brazil lost against Belgium.

Essentially, except in 2014 when Argentina defeated two top European teams, they lost every KO clash against them.
 

tjb

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Probably better to not base your entire thesis on one game or you could end up with a lot of egg on your face. This is the kind of post that should be made if and when they actually get knocked out.
I'm not saying they are going to get knocked out. My bone of contention is why they were favoured in the first place.
Spain in 2010 were a team that had the majority of their players play for a dominant Barcelona. Despite their loss, it made sense not to doubt them since these players had proven themselves at club level and how shown they could play with that pattern. In addition they had a class manager.

For Argentina. The entire basis of them being favourites came as a result of European teams not having dominant and consistent runs in their friendly and nations league games. People seemed to just assume both Brazil and Argentina must be better, despite the fact that part of that run of form for these teams was as a result of not taking games to seriously due to the pile of international fixtures over the last 2-3 years.

On talent, the hype around Brazil is justified. They have a collection of attackers only matched by France, a good spine and a good head coach. They didn't look poor in Russia either and have only gotten better since then. In addition, watching the Copa America games, Brazil seemed far more dominant than Argentina, even during the final. Yet due to a lot of people not watching that game or the tournament, Argentina winning and their run of games prior to the world cup in which they were beating the same Copa America teams mixed in with Estonia and an out of form Italy made people automatically select them.

Looking at the tournament, what makes them a better team than Germany who have Kimmich, Musiala, Sane, Gnabry, Muller, Rudgier etc. What makes them better than Portugal with Ruben Dias, Cancelo, Bruno, Bernardo Silva, Joao Felix, Rafael Leao etc. They have Messi in a team with a midfield that is not as good as their rivals, a central defence that hasn't yet seen the light to play Martinez, average full backs who can't supplement their lack of a midfield, an injury plagued Di Maria and Lauturo. A good team, better than most and with a good path, they have a chance to win the whole thing, yet shouldn't have been considered as on of the top 3 favourites in my opinion.
 

Revan

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How many European coaches you think have the stature to coach Brazil or Argentina? IMO, only the elite European coaches can and they probably would rather coach their own national teams.
I would say there are a few hundred better European coaches than Lionel Scaloni.
 

Todd

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That is literally the only time it has ever happened though. A few other teams have reached the final after losing their opening fixture however.
Sure, but the point is that this isn't the disaster many people seem to be making it out as, especially when you consider the other result in the group today.

Mexico and Poland looked absolutely toothless today, especially Poland. I will not be surprised in the least if Argentina still win their group on 6 points.
 

bosnian_red

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Maybe you are right. I think that clearly the standard of coaching has increased in Europe over the last 20 years, but not in South America. And while the players have been good, the coaching have let them down.

Since Brazil won it, the big two S American teams have lost almost every match against top European teams.

2006:
Brazil lost in their first match against a top European team (France). Argentina drew against Holland, and then lost against Germany.

2010:
Argentina lost in their first match against a top European team (Germany). Brazil drew against Portugal, then lost against Holland

2014:
Argentina defeated Belgium and Holland (yay), before losing to Germany (again). Brazil got humiliated by Germany and Holland.

2018:
Argentina got embarrassed by both Croatia and France. Brazil lost against Belgium.

Essentially, except in 2014 when Argentina defeated two top European teams, they lost every KO clash against them.
And in 2014 against Netherlands it was on pens. It's pure denial to reject the fact that European coaching has been vastly superior than South American - despite there being no talent difference. It's even more pronounced now IMO as European football has evolved further, while Brazil and Argentina I feel like are playing like how European sides played 5-10 years ago. Just a step behind. International football is generally behind, but Netherlands, Germany and Spain in particular are pretty much club team level with their coaching, so im really giving them a bit advantage.
 

bosnian_red

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Sure, but the point is that this isn't the disaster many people seem to be making it out as, especially when you consider the other result in the group today.

Mexico and Poland looked absolutely toothless today, especially Poland. I will not be surprised in the least if Argentina still win their group on 6 points.
They'll top their group but it's more of a general point that they just aren't as good as what some people hoped or thought, and there are some very good teams they'll have to come up against.
 

Andrade

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Sure, but the point is that this isn't the disaster many people seem to be making it out as, especially when you consider the other result in the group today.

Mexico and Poland looked absolutely toothless today, especially Poland. I will not be surprised in the least if Argentina still win their group on 6 points.
Yeah I agree. They caught a break with the Poland/Mexico game finishing as a goalless draw.
 

antk

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They actually did that post 2018. Didn't call up Di Maria for a while and Messi was rested for many of their friendlies while they tried out loads of new players.

Think winning the Copa America meant the old guard just got one more chance at the World cup. For next game would expect the likes of Alvarez to start in attack and midfield to be re-jigged.

Mexico won't be easy. They can sit in, Ochoa was warming up nicely for his annual brick wall World cup match and both teams know each other so well from endless Copa American and previous World cup meetings. Mexico also have Gerardo Martino in charge which is another interesting dynamic.

Much more chance of beating Poland.
Small correction but Mexico hasn't played in a Copa America since 2016.
 

TheRedHearted

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So it looked like otamendi was attacking the left wing at the end of the game?

seems like Argentina could have used a pacey, dangerous left wing that happens to be young for the end of the game !
 

colombianmancunian

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I'm not saying they are going to get knocked out. My bone of contention is why they were favoured in the first place.
Spain in 2010 were a team that had the majority of their players play for a dominant Barcelona. Despite their loss, it made sense not to doubt them since these players had proven themselves at club level and how shown they could play with that pattern. In addition they had a class manager.

For Argentina. The entire basis of them being favourites came as a result of European teams not having dominant and consistent runs in their friendly and nations league games. People seemed to just assume both Brazil and Argentina must be better, despite the fact that part of that run of form for these teams was as a result of not taking games to seriously due to the pile of international fixtures over the last 2-3 years.

On talent, the hype around Brazil is justified. They have a collection of attackers only matched by France, a good spine and a good head coach. They didn't look poor in Russia either and have only gotten better since then. In addition, watching the Copa America games, Brazil seemed far more dominant than Argentina, even during the final. Yet due to a lot of people not watching that game or the tournament, Argentina winning and their run of games prior to the world cup in which they were beating the same Copa America teams mixed in with Estonia and an out of form Italy made people automatically select them.

Looking at the tournament, what makes them a better team than Germany who have Kimmich, Musiala, Sane, Gnabry, Muller, Rudgier etc. What makes them better than Portugal with Ruben Dias, Cancelo, Bruno, Bernardo Silva, Joao Felix, Rafael Leao etc. They have Messi in a team with a midfield that is not as good as their rivals, a central defence that hasn't yet seen the light to play Martinez, average full backs who can't supplement their lack of a midfield, an injury plagued Di Maria and Lauturo. A good team, better than most and with a good path, they have a chance to win the whole thing, yet shouldn't have been considered as on of the top 3 favourites in my opinion.
Finally someone sees the light. Argentina are criminally overrated, they are nothing special aside Messi, Lautaro and Martinez (who they don’t even play).
Are they good? Yes they are. But Brazil is better, England is better, France is better, and a case for Germany and Spain being better can be made.
 

amolbhatia50k

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Against a top team. Argentina lost against literally the worst team in the tournament.
They didn't look it. I thought SA were fantastic. Many 'better' teams won't produce that sort of display this tournament. They were physically dominant and had the ability to play.
 

Desert Eagle

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Maybe you are right. I think that clearly the standard of coaching has increased in Europe over the last 20 years, but not in South America. And while the players have been good, the coaching have let them down.

Since Brazil won it, the big two S American teams have lost almost every match against top European teams.

2006:
Brazil lost in their first match against a top European team (France). Argentina drew against Holland, and then lost against Germany.

2010:
Argentina lost in their first match against a top European team (Germany). Brazil drew against Portugal, then lost against Holland

2014:
Argentina defeated Belgium and Holland (yay), before losing to Germany (again). Brazil got humiliated by Germany and Holland.

2018:
Argentina got embarrassed by both Croatia and France. Brazil lost against Belgium.

Essentially, except in 2014 when Argentina defeated two top European teams, they lost every KO clash against them.
I'm of the same opinion. The south american coaches haven't adapted as well to modern football and Scaloni doesn't seem like a new gen manager.
 

Sky1981

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Agreed. Saudi did a good job on them but there is a bit of an overreaction here. Saudi created 2 half chances and buried both, whilst riding their fortune on the tight offsides and bad Argentina finishing. Argentina still 1.7ish odds to qualify from the group so expectation is still for them to turn it around. Still 4th favourites overall as well.
It's not about the freak result, but Argentina looks shockingly clueless, and although it's the first match it has become important since the 45th minute that they need to push on but produced nothing.

Lack of cohession, leadership, calmness etc. It's more than a freak result. They're packing
 

izec

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If they don’t panic they should still pick up 2 wins in this group which should be enough to progress.
They will panic though, and the pressure will be huge on them next Saturday. They are usually more often than not not coping well with pressure at world cups. I can only see them going out in the group and they were never a favourite for me to begin with.

Scaloni is also a weird manager for me. He stumbled upon a first eleven and has no clue why it worked. Now he has some injury in Lo Celso and cannot replace him. He reminds me of Ole in a way. It would have been better for them if they lost a couple of games prior to the world cup and had an idea what to change once things go downhill. Now they are in panic mode and i bet he has no idea how to improve.
 
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FrankFoot

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Argentina gonna struggle once and Messi and Di María retire

The young players that are upcoming are almost all unproven at the highest level, except Lautaro Martinez.

Julian Alvarez isn't not even 30% of what Agüero was at the same age.

No more Redondos,Cambiassos, Crespos, Zabaletas, Batistutas, Agueros, Riquelmes Ayalas, Zanettis, etc
 

dinostar77

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Apparently a punter in australia put $160,000 down on a bet that argentina would beat saudi arabia. Would have won $180,000. So a 20 grand profit.

Obviously didnt do his homeework abut argentina and opening fixtures at a WC...
 

avgp_1

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Argentina gonna struggle once and Messi and Di María retire

The young players that are upcoming are almost all unproven at the highest level, except Lautaro Martinez.

Julian Alvarez isn't not even 30% of what Agüero was at the same age.

No more Redondos,Cambiassos, Crespos, Zabaletas, Batistutas, Agueros, Riquelmes Ayalas, Zanettis, etc
i think they will be fine in the end. The defence is still pretty young with Licha and Romero around 24-25. Ofcourse its unlikely to match the golden generations of 05 but couple of really standout midfield talents are coming through in Alcaraz and Soule. Enzo who is already making waves at Benfica.
In attack, there is 16 year old Pristianni(linked with Real) , Luka Romero(Lazio) and offcourse Garnacho. Lautaro is pretty young and Alvarez is just getting started.
 

GifLord

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i think they will be fine in the end. The defence is still pretty young with Licha and Romero around 24-25. Ofcourse its unlikely to match the golden generations of 05 but couple of really standout midfield talents are coming through in Alcaraz and Soule. Enzo who is already making waves at Benfica.
In attack, there is 16 year old Pristianni(linked with Real) , Luka Romero(Lazio) and offcourse Garnacho. Lautaro is pretty young and Alvarez is just getting started.
What about the current ones playing at the wc? Almada, Fernandez, Alvarez, Mac Allister?
It's crazy how bang average they look. How have the youth teams done in competitions? I Remember the 00s gen won a lot


 

avgp_1

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What about the current ones playing at the wc? Almada, Fernandez, Alvarez, Mac Allister?
It's crazy how bang average they look. How have the youth teams done in competitions? I Remember the 00s gen won a lot


The World Cup I think has come too soon for Enzo Fernandez and Alvarez. They have potential I believe to be big players for them, Almada I am not too sure of. Could be Correa level or better.
This current team is built around Messi to flourish with others doing the hard yards and avoid conceding. He needed passing options as he got crowded out by the Saudis yesterday, the absence of Lo Celso is a bigger loss than I thought.
They would be disappointed with the lack of development of Dybala, Icardi and Correa for sure who have failed to reach that top tier level, should have been ready to take over from Messi, Aguero, Di Maria by now. But then they never managed to settle playing with Messi, I think atleast for Dybala thats true.

Among the youth teams I dont follow much, they lost 5-2 or something to France at the Toulon but what I read that they were much younger to their French counterparts. Although I watched this youth game against a Brazil side with Endrick, and Argentina looked the better team to me.
 

Irwin99

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Fought back well in the second half but there's just something horrible about their shape/approach at times. Change the midfield? Also, I know Di maria was a key player in their Copa America win but it feels like they're carrying him a bit (and Messi too at times but Messi wins you games)
 

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I think they can get better as the tournament goes on, they will want to beat Poland though and avoid a last 16 clash with France though
 

Chief123

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Despite the win, I think they’ve looked so poor in both games. I just don’t see them winning the World Cup at all unless they drastically change which I don’t see them doing.

I think there 36 undefeated run has hyped them up too much.

France, Spain and Brazil have looked on a different level compared to Argentina.
 

IFC 1905

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I think this team has lots of room for improvement, and also they're having psychological problems.

At the KO stages I think they will be tough to beat, especially with Licha and Otamendi at this level.

If we beat Polonia by a good margin, the confidence boost would be pretty important.
 

Skills

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They really don't have too much coming through the pipeline in the attacking end no?

The next world cup looks quite grim for them
 

FootballHQ

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Dybala must be one of the most unluckiest players of all time.

His club career was going along nicely at Juventus then Ronaldo turns up and he has to play supporting cast. Is this another major international tournament he's going to be barely playing a minute?

Will be 30 next year so a long time to wait for Messi to retire and finally get regular starts.
 

izec

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They really don't have too much coming through the pipeline in the attacking end no?

The next world cup looks quite grim for them
Garnacho :drool:

It is a chance to build without Messi, Di Maria and Otamendi IMO. They need pace, new blood and a new generation taking over. New players pop up every year, see Alvarez, Enzo and Garnacho. Until 2026, a lot can happen.
 

IFC 1905

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Best thing is that Mexico is always trying to compare to us and Brazil and I don't know how many games it's been without a defeat against them, it's hilarious
 

FootballHQ

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They really don't have too much coming through the pipeline in the attacking end no?

The next world cup looks quite grim for them
Garnacho will be in their next squad in March, think Scaloni is probably regretting not calling him up given his form in last month so would've been going into world cup very confident.

Alvarez taking a while to settle in at Man. City but could come good.

They'll always have decent wide attackers emerging. However dosen't seem much alternative at CF beyond Martinez who imo isn't as good an all rounder as Higuain or Aguero in last decade.
 

Lay

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Dybala must be one of the most unluckiest players of all time.

His club career was going along nicely at Juventus then Ronaldo turns up and he has to play supporting cast. Is this another major international tournament he's going to be barely playing a minute?

Will be 30 next year so a long time to wait for Messi to retire and finally get regular starts.
It’s partly his fault too. Hasn’t developed much and it isn’t all down to Ronaldo. He’s one of those that you know are fantastic footballers but you can’t pin point a role for them

Kinda like Felix
 

RedDevilMachine

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I did the World Cup stimulator and I still have them progressing far if they can beat Poland and win the group. They would face Denmark in the round of 16 and Netherlands in the quarter-final which I expect them to get past. Then it will be Spain/Brazil in the semi-final. Let's not forget they lost 3-4 in the last World Cup to the eventual winner.
 

Blood Mage

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Their midfield is crap and Messi's powers are waning (great goal tonight mind). 2nd favourites my arse.
 

Infordin

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They have zero attacking threat coming from the left side, which makes it even more baffling why Scaloni didn’t call up Garnacho.

The midfield looks miles better when Enzo plays.

The strongest part of the team is the defence, when they actually play fit defenders (and don’t rush back Romero like they did against Saudi).
 
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