Argentina's all-time xi?

[harms]

Seriously forgetting Sivori?? 3 ballon d'or winner?

I’ve watched pretty much every footage of him and he’s not going to work with Maradona, never. And however high you rate him, Maradona was better.

I didn't realise they hated each other that much. If Passarella goes out who can play a sweeper CB role?

Perfumo, without a doubt. I’m not even sure if I rate Ruggeri higher, it’s just that Perfumo is more of a sweeper and you need a different player next to Passarella. If you bench the latter, Perfumo gets straight in. Ayala is a decent back up option for both Perfumo/Ruggeri as he was pretty all-rounded.

 

[harms]

I really like the use of Tevez & Di Maria as both have proven themselves to be quite brilliant in tactically supportive roles. Seriously considered Di Maria on the left (but went with someone more likable) and Tevez in Batigol’s place (again, went with my heart).

 

[Physiocrat]

I really like the use of Tevez & Di Maria as both have proven themselves to be quite brilliant in tactically supportive roles. Seriously considered Di Maria on the left (but went with someone more likable) and Tevez in Batigol’s place (again, went with my heart).

Did you post your side? I can't see it

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Rene Houseman deserves a shout as well. Would walk into Di Stefano's Argentina 4-2-3-1

 

[harms]

Did you post your side? I can't see it

It’s pretty generic

Batistuta
↓Ardiles - Di Stefano - Messi↑
Redondo - Simeone
Marzolini - Passarella - Ruggeri - Zanetti
Carrizo

 

[Physiocrat]

It’s pretty generic

Thanks.

 

[paulscholes18]

Fillol
Zanetti Passarella Ruggeri Marzolini
Redondo Simeone
Messi Maradona
Di Stefano Batistuta

 

[Jim Beam]

One question though I was thinking about was would Redondo or Ardilles be happy to play second fiddle to Maradona but still be at their best?

They worked like a charm in WC 1994. Redondo doesn't really mind creativity upfront, it elevates his game.
Personally, I only see a bit of clash if there is a dominate CB behind him and that is based on absolutely nothing, but my gut feeling.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Fillol
Zanetti Passarella Ruggeri Marzolini
Redondo Simeone
Messi Maradona
Di Stefano Batistuta

Was sort of bugging me

 

[RedRonaldo]

Carrizo
Passarella
Zanetti Mascherano Ayala
Redondo Veron
Messi Di Stefano Maradona
Batistuta​

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

I think Di Stefano can help replicate the post tiki taka Barca setup for Messi

Kempes-------Messi--------?????
-----Di Stefano-----Redondo------
--------------------Rossi-------------------
Marzo---Passa---Perfu----Zanet

 

[Joga Bonito]

Kempes.....................
..................................Messi
Maradona

Mascherano........Ardiles

Sorin............................................Zanetti
Ayala...................Ruggeri
Passarella

Fillol
​

I don't really see an issue with 08-11 Messi, who was more of a direct goalscoring RWF, and either one of Di Stefano or Maradona. Esp since Messi is an outlier with his decision making skills and his ability to ideally balance his individualism whilst conforming to the overall setup (younger Messi). He was hardly the frustrating, overly individualistic star player who tried to do it all by himself or dominate proceedings, with things having to run through him (ala Maradona/Di Stefano).

That being said, a 3-5-2 will hand Messi the freedom in the final third, Maradona the reigns and Kempes should be the ideal foil with his industry, physicality and dynamism off the ball. Passarella should have more license to bomb forward as and when he sees fit, with a back 5 and Mascherano in particular, having the nous and the experience to step back into defense when required.

Ardiles should provide the right blend of creativity, trickiness and drive, so as to not make the midfield overly defensive or predictable.

With regards to Passarella-Maradona, I can certainly agree with the clash of egos as both were crazy nutters of the highest order but the rhetoric of Passarella requiring too much tactical accommodating for his attacking prowess is overplayed at times imo.

He was exceptionally disciplined and not exactly a berserker libero who HAD to attack or go on rampages incessantly. In the 78 WC for instance, he was a rather defensive and level minded and a stoic figure at the back, preferring to utilise his ball playing skills to keep things rolling whilst occasionally venturing forward. Put it this way, on the scale of Figueroa to Beckenbauer in the 'libero stakes', Passarella was in the middle or thereabouts but closer to Figueroa on the spectrum, as a disciplined hard-as-nails, defense first, sweeper of sorts imo.

​

 

[Fortitude]

Good post, nice utilization of the vaunted 3-5-2, too. @Joga Bonito

 

[Physiocrat]

Here are a few attempts.

-------------Kempes-------Batistuta------------
--------------------Maradona-----------------------
------Di Maria------------------Simeone-
---------------------Redondo-----------------------
Marzolini--Perfumo--Ruggeri---J. Zanetti
--------------------------Fillol-----------------------------

--------------Kempes--------Batistuta---------------
-----------------------Maradona-------------------------
----------Cambiasso----------Simeone--------------
-----------------------Redondo-----------------------------
Sorin-------Ruggeri-------Perfumo------J. Zanetti
---------------------------Fillol----------------------------------

----------------------Batistuta------------------------------
Kempes--------------------------------Messi (post-Pep)
----------------------Di Stefano------------------------------
---------------Ardilles-------Simeone----------------------
Sorin-------Ruggeri-------Perfumo------J. Zanetti
---------------------------Fillol----------------------------------

My favourite is the last. My major difficulty is providing width on the left. (I have only included TV players).

 

[Gio]

That’s fair enough. While I think that Di Stefano and Messi give more quality combined, it’s definitely feels sacrilegious to leave Diego our — more so than literally any other player.

I feel that Ardiles isn’t getting enough credit, it’s such a rarity to see a player combining insane energy levels with truly outstanding technique — he’s like a slightly worse version of Tigana in that regard (with an additional bonus of actually being capable of scoring goals). He also feels very comfortable out wide on either side.

Yeah, Ardiles does knit things together quite well, moreso than everyone else in the moblile manner he can link defence to attack and work into wide areas.

I really like the use of Tevez & Di Maria as both have proven themselves to be quite brilliant in tactically supportive roles. Seriously considered Di Maria on the left (but went with someone more likable) and Tevez in Batigol’s place (again, went with my heart).

Personally I wouldn't be touching Di Maria in these sides. Appreciate his critical role at Real serving an egotistic front three, but in practice here I fear he'd be inclined to go on a mazy run when there are two guys infinitely more devastating at doing so impatiently waiting for the ball.

As another suggestion in replacing Batistuta, Crespo feels like a really natural reference point for Maradona and bouncer of one-two's off for Messi, as well as bringing top notch finishing to the table.

In a 3-5-2 would be inclined to deploy Samuel as the left centre-half @Joga Bonito, but the balance in the front three is perfect.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Good post, nice utilization of the vaunted 3-5-2, too. @Joga Bonito

Cheers

In a 3-5-2 would be inclined to deploy Samuel as the left centre-half @Joga Bonito, but the balance in the front three is perfect.

Yeah that is a good shout.

 

[Enigma_87]

Think back 5 picks itself. Then Redondo as holder is a must, CF is Batistuta, so that's given too. Which leaves room for tuning in terms of the remaining personnel.


--Kempes-----------Batistuta-------Messi
-----------------A.Di Stefano
---------------------------------------D. Simeone
------------------------------Redondo
-Marzolini----Passarella----Ruggerri----Zanetti
------------------------------Fillol-----------

Hard to leave Maradona out and probably you can put him in the very much same set up like the above and work brilliantly.

I picked Di Stefano, because he brings a little bit more width on the left in attack.

 

[Physiocrat]

Think back 5 picks itself. Then Redondo as holder is a must, CF is Batistuta, so that's given too. Which leaves room for tuning in terms of the remaining personnel.


--Kempes-----------Batistuta-------Messi
-----------------A.Di Stefano
---------------------------------------D. Simeone
------------------------------Redondo
-Marzolini----Passarella----Ruggerri----Zanetti
------------------------------Fillol-----------

Hard to leave Maradona out and probably you can put him in the very much same set up like the above and work brilliantly.

I picked Di Stefano, because he brings a little bit more width on the left in attack.

Did ADS drift that much left? To get those that front four in I sacrificed Passarella for Perfumo so I could play Sorin at LB to give more on that left side and allow ADS to stay central.

 

[Enigma_87]

Did ADS drift that much left? To get those that front four in I sacrificed Passarella for Perfumo so I could play Sorin at LB to give more on that left side and allow ADS to stay central.

It's a popular anecdote that he worked that left channel a lot:

"In Madrid, the field at the Santiago Bernabeu Stadium leans to the left because Alfredo Di Stéfano had played so much on this side."

From what I've seen of him yes.

Of course playing him as a LW would be a bit of a waste, despite IMO well suited to play there as well given his flexibility and versatility, but as you said he'd be much better off playing central.

Other option is just play Di Maria instead of Kempes and you don't need to change the formation.

 

[Physiocrat]

In that case @Enigma_87 I think you have pretty much the best Argie side you could have.

 

[Enigma_87]

In that case @Enigma_87 I think you have pretty much the best Argie side you could have.

Yeah, for me that's that reason I'd take AdS instead of Maradona. The latter also drifted wide and even put in some great crosses, but I've also seen AdS defend that left channel a lot more too(one case is against us in CL).

​

He was exceptionally disciplined and not exactly a berserker libero who HAD to attack or go on rampages incessantly. In the 78 WC for instance, he was a rather defensive and level minded and a stoic figure at the back, preferring to utilise his ball playing skills to keep things rolling whilst occasionally venturing forward. Put it this way, on the scale of Figueroa to Beckenbauer in the 'libero stakes', Passarella was in the middle or thereabouts but closer to Figueroa on the spectrum, as a disciplined hard-as-nails, defense first, sweeper of sorts imo.

​

I've watched him lately a bit more and have to agree with this (first mistakingly thought the same). Especially in Italy in the latter part of his career he was disciplined and didn't break the lines that often as say Beckenbauer or the Sammer type.

 

[Physiocrat]

@Enigma_87 Btw which Messi version are you using?

 

[Enigma_87]

@Enigma_87 Btw which Messi version are you using?

To be honest I don't see much issue if we use the peak version of Messi in this set up for couple of reasons:

1. AdS loved the left channel, whereas Messi the right one.
2. Messi played alongside a dominant playmaker in Xavi and did just fine. The earlier version of Messi wasn't the recognized playmaker of the side and the play didn't flow through him but Xavi. He was the all conquering forward who dribbled past opponents but also was a great foil in a possession set up able to recycle and use possession.
3. Peak Zanetti will give him the option to roam inside and also the option in attack which made the partnership with Dani Alves so successful.
4. Redondo will start attacks from deep and also is perfect Busquets upgrade and obviously can see him working pretty well with both AdS and Messi.
5. Simeone would provide steel to the midfield and won't stand in the way on that side.

Of course some questions might be raised with Passarella and Redondo, however I can see them both doing pretty well and as mentioned above Passarella isn't really the dominant playmaker from the back - as he rather use his attacking sense in runs towards midfield/box and capitalizing his goalscoring ability.

Same probably goes with Redondo and AdS, but again Redondo I don't see as a big personality clash to create issues like Didi/AdS happening here.

I can see a potential class with the modern day Messi, rather than the peak one, where he as said above tries to do it by himself and is more concentrated in running the game and initially starting from a deeper position.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Redondo is closer to Xavi then he is to Busquets in terms of playing style.

 

[Enigma_87]

Redondo is closer to Xavi then he is to Busquets in terms of playing style.

yeah, agreed, but in such setup I'd have him at anchor so he can sit deeper in front of the defence which is why I compared him to Busquets.

 

[Physiocrat]

To be honest I don't see much issue if we use the peak version of Messi in this set up for couple of reasons:

1. AdS loved the left channel, whereas Messi the right one.
2. Messi played alongside a dominant playmaker in Xavi and did just fine. The earlier version of Messi wasn't the recognized playmaker of the side and the play didn't flow through him but Xavi. He was the all conquering forward who dribbled past opponents but also was a great foil in a possession set up able to recycle and use possession.
3. Peak Zanetti will give him the option to roam inside and also the option in attack which made the partnership with Dani Alves so successful.
4. Redondo will start attacks from deep and also is perfect Busquets upgrade and obviously can see him working pretty well with both AdS and Messi.
5. Simeone would provide steel to the midfield and won't stand in the way on that side.

Of course some questions might be raised with Passarella and Redondo, however I can see them both doing pretty well and as mentioned above Passarella isn't really the dominant playmaker from the back - as he rather use his attacking sense in runs towards midfield/box and capitalizing his goalscoring ability.

Same probably goes with Redondo and AdS, but again Redondo I don't see as a big personality clash to create issues like Didi/AdS happening here.

I can see a potential class with the modern day Messi, rather than the peak one, where he as said above tries to do it by himself and is more concentrated in running the game and initially starting from a deeper position.

Thanks for that. When you say Peak Messi do you mean the false 9 version or the MSN version?

 

[Enigma_87]

Thanks for that. When you say Peak Messi do you mean the false 9 version or the MSN version?

The MSN one. Pre - Guardiola he wasn't as good and generally as every young superstar (with Fenomeno being the exception) not as consistent as his peak version.

Whilst obviously we can't use the false 9 version with either Maradona or AdS.

 

[Physiocrat]

The MSN one. Pre - Guardiola he wasn't as good and generally as every young superstar (with Fenomeno being the exception) not as consistent as his peak version.

Whilst obviously we can't use the false 9 version with either Maradona or AdS.

That clears it up. We now though seem to have four Messi versions: young RW, false 9, MSN and post-MSN

 

[Enigma_87]

That clears it up. We now though seem to have four Messi versions: young RW, false 9, MSN and post-MSN

Yep. Not bad in terms of versatility either and playing in different set ups

Batistuta I think is a great foil for him in the same sense Suarez was.

I'm still a bit unsure about Kempes or AdM would be a better pick though. Di Maria would probably be the better fit, but Kempes is the better player.

 

[Physiocrat]

Yep. Not bad in terms of versatility either and playing in different set ups

Batistuta I think is a great foil for him in the same sense Suarez was.

I'm still a bit unsure about Kempes or AdM would be a better pick though. Di Maria would probably be the better fit, but Kempes is the better player.

I think Kempes is a much better team player than Di Maria. Also Di Maria's best role was an attacking LCM so don't see him being a better fit than Kempes here.

 

[NoPace]

I don't see any problem with Maradona - Messi. THey have different play characteristic. Maradona likes to leave a mark on every set of play, even dropping deeper, or going left and right. Messi is more stationary up-front, and he doesn't like to run around much.

Also crucially, Messi has the temperament and versatility to figure out how to play as Maradona's sidekick if it's for the good of the team. He tries to take over for Argentina because their back 7 is so shaky, not because he doesn't trust Di Maria and Aguero.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Also crucially, Messi has the temperament and versatility to figure out how to play as Maradona's sidekick if it's for the good of the team. He tries to take over for Argentina because their back 7 is so shaky, not because he doesn't trust Di Maria and Aguero.

I don't entirely agree with this argument. Messi does work in the spirit of the team's good, but this is only true as long as the space, areas and dominance he has as the alpha of the team aren't up for competition.

Ibrahimovic is one such example.

He might love playing with Maradona as his hero, but as a fellow footballer, I think he'd get the manager sacked or Maradona sold.

 

[NoPace]

I don't entirely agree with this argument. Messi does work in the spirit of the team's good, but this is only true as long as the space, areas and dominance he has as the alpha of the team aren't up for competition.

Ibrahimovic is one such example.

He might love playing with Maradona as his hero, but as a fellow footballer, I think he'd get the manager sacked or Maradona sold.

Obviously neither of us know Messi but I just don't get that vibe from him. And Ibra was probably less a result of his arrogance than his lack of mobility and ability to contribute from wider positions like the more versatile Villa.

I think if you told Messi to stick to the right touchline he'd be fine with Maradona as the 10, stick someone on the left and up top who can get on the end of passes from them.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

but I just don't get that vibe from him.

Well, that general perception does work in his favour, but I do think inside closed doors at Barca, he has his say on almost everything related to the team. I can only speculate of course.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

I think if you told Messi to stick to the right touchline he'd be fine with Maradona as the 10, stick someone on the left and up top who can get on the end of passes from them.

The young Messi, yes. The peak one, that is debatable.

 

[NoPace]

Well, that general perception does work in his favour, but I do think inside closed doors at Barca, he has his say on almost everything related to the team. I can only speculate of course.

I'm not saying he's not a normal star prima donna.

I just think on the pitch he's got more of the Rooney/Beckham thing where he might try to do too much but he's also thinking of the team rather than "what's best for me is always what's best for the team", which to be fair you might say about Cristiano but he has made it work (along with being an aerial threat against packed defences) to be basically as good as Messi in big games as opposed to solidly below him as an average footballer.

Could also just play Aguero-Maradona-Messi as a front 3 and have Di Stefano surging into the box a lot with Aguero on the shoulder of the last defender looking to get on the end of passes from Maradona and Messi both.

 

[Isotope]

Also crucially, Messi has the temperament and versatility to figure out how to play as Maradona's sidekick if it's for the good of the team. He tries to take over for Argentina because their back 7 is so shaky, not because he doesn't trust Di Maria and Aguero.

They don't have place for Dyabala because both are occupying the same place. Messi is Messi, and I don't think he can be a sidekick. The way I see Maradona and Messi, is like Ronaldinho and Rivaldo with Brazil. Ronaldinho did more the playmaking, and Rivaldo as forward.

 

[IFC 1905]

It's pretty tough

------------------------Fillol------
Zanetti-----Perfumo----Passarella----Marzolini

----------------------Redondo--------------------------

---Maradona------------------Di Stefanno-----------

----------------------BOCHINI---------------------------

---------------Messi--------------Kempes------------




Diego, Messi and DOn Alfredo could be switching easliy.

Di Stefano also could come down helping Redondo

That's a pretty good call too