Armchair Manager Culture

SirAnderson

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Armchair Expert:
"Someone who claims to know all the answers to a problem, situation or scenario but has little or no experience or real understanding of it."

I really need to understand this, or just probably accept its reality.

Somehow I feel it's increasing every single season though.
It's one thing to have an opinion, and a strong one at that, but to go around spouting as if we know better and defend it so vehemently, while bashing players and managers alike as if we could do better is just mind boggling.

This feels like it's becoming the predominant culture of fans these days, rather than trying to enjoying the game. Granted the 2 aren't mutually exclusive, but some just take it to another level.

It's probably always been like that maybe, but hey, guess it's part of the spectators game too now.

It's emotional as a fan, I get that, and unless you winning the league every year at a canter like Bayern and others, we will always have turbulent times. During which, I feel it's better to give the benefit of the doubt to a manager who has, (and in Ole's case) in my view done so much better than any of our preceding managers post Fergie, and results will eventually match it, we seeing it in patches, at that's to be expected, just like Fergie didn't conquer all before him in his first few years.
I've had my fair share of arm Chair managing, make no mistake, I just wish we can enjoy the game more than critize at every opportunity, sure it will get frustrating and demoralizing at times, so it's fair to vent and point out what your opinion of how you think it should have gone or what should have been done differently, but at the end of the day, don't spout of as if you know better, for the most part, you don't.
Otherwise, go coach your local team, earn you badges and make your way up the ladder so you can show people just how clued up you really are.
 

Mr Parker

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I used to be a proper armchair manager in my teens and Liverpool losing would put me in a bad mood all weekend. In my twenties I got into a really bad state of depression which I won't get into but it made me question lots of things about my life. One of those things happened to be my relationship with football. I came to the realisation that allowing something to affect my life which I have no control over is a complete waste of time and energy. I still support Liverpool but I'm nowhere near the fanatic I used to be. Things like results, transfers, team line ups, substitutions really don't affect me emotionally anymore. I realised that as much as I think my opinion might be right do I really know more than Klopp who has watched the boys in training all week? Of course I don't.

This also helped me with the defensive attitude that most football fans have. I don't feel the need to defend Liverpool to anyone that puts them down. I'm not ashamed to admit if we were lucky or if everything went our way because at the end of the day I'm just a supporter and what happens to Liverpool doesn't help pay the mortgage or keep my friends or family safe.

This change of mentality has made it so much easier for me to enjoy football and supporting Liverpool without all the bull that comes with it. I celebrate the highs because they're great and I don't care about the lows because they have no bearing on my life at all. I cheer them on through thick and thin without moaning about every little decision the manager or board make. It's brilliant.
 

lysglimt

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I used to be a proper armchair manager in my teens and Liverpool losing would put me in a bad mood all weekend. In my twenties I got into a really bad state of depression which I won't get into but it made me question lots of things about my life.
Yes Rafa Benitez can do that to you :)
 

Dan_F

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It’s this a forum for discussion about Manchester United? I would never talk to a person in a pub or at a game like I do here, but that’s what this place is for, giving opinions on the game.

It’s also a lot easier to pick out mistakes, or be hyperbolic, as emotions are high right after games.
 

SirAnderson

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I used to be a proper armchair manager in my teens and Liverpool losing would put me in a bad mood all weekend. In my twenties I got into a really bad state of depression which I won't get into but it made me question lots of things about my life. One of those things happened to be my relationship with football. I came to the realisation that allowing something to affect my life which I have no control over is a complete waste of time and energy. I still support Liverpool but I'm nowhere near the fanatic I used to be. Things like results, transfers, team line ups, substitutions really don't affect me emotionally anymore. I realised that as much as I think my opinion might be right do I really know more than Klopp who has watched the boys in training all week? Of course I don't.

This also helped me with the defensive attitude that most football fans have. I don't feel the need to defend Liverpool to anyone that puts them down. I'm not ashamed to admit if we were lucky or if everything went our way because at the end of the day I'm just a supporter and what happens to Liverpool doesn't help pay the mortgage or keep my friends or family safe.

This change of mentality has made it so much easier for me to enjoy football and supporting Liverpool without all the bull that comes with it. I celebrate the highs because they're great and I don't care about the lows because they have no bearing on my life at all. I cheer them on through thick and thin without moaning about every little decision the manager or board make. It's brilliant.
Way to go for you man.
I haven't gotten so far as to not let the lows bother me, they do, but fortunately I can pull myself out of it after a few hours of venting.
It can spoil that day for me then I just don't bother with football till the next game, and definitely try to stay away from the some of the threads in here.

Still have my shite to sort out when it comes to match day thread, I can get very frustrated there, but I do know most of what I post there is in the moment emotions and not me actually thinking I know better.
 

SirAnderson

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It’s this a forum for discussion about Manchester United? I would never talk to a person in a pub or at a game like I do here, but that’s what this place is for, giving opinions on the game.

It’s also a lot easier to pick out mistakes, or be hyperbolic, as emotions are high right after games.
No, as you can see other fans have posted. I just gave a specific case in Ole but the principle is one that applies to all fans.

I get the hyperbole and high emotions, but spend any time in this forum and you will see it is a constant.
I also go on a crazy in match day threads, but it's different when some clearly think they know better on all matters football, i.e transfers, players positions, tactics, subs, wage bill etc.

As I said in my first post, nothing wrong with having an opinion, even a very strong one, but we shouldn't kid ourselves into thinking we can do better than the actually players, managers and owners.
Sure we could maybe fluke a positive here and there, but until we've walk a mile in their shoes, best to ensure what you say is squarely an opinion, not a fact from the Armchair.
 

el3mel

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People giving opinion on their team on a football forum! Shocker!! How dare they ?
 

el3mel

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There's a difference between opinion and fact. :D
Look it's just the purpose of internet that's all. Previously and before forums and social media were that popular, people watched matches, discuss with their friends for few minutes after than move on completely. Now there's a bigger space to express all your opinions on your team everywhere.
 

SirAnderson

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Look it's just the purpose of internet that's all. Previously and before forums and social media were that popular, people watched matches, discuss with their friends for few minutes after than move on completely. Now there's a bigger space to express all your opinions on your team everywhere.
And I'm all for that, 100%. Maybe its just me, but as per the definition. A lot come across (myself included sometimes) as if we 100% know better and even could do better on all things football, players, managers, transfers etc. I love an interesting debate on an opinion on why Ole is shite, or this player is shite, but let's not speak like we know it all, is all I'm saying. Probably most don't speak like that, but you don't have to spend long on this forum to see that there are quick a few that are like that.
 

el3mel

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And I'm all for that, 100%. Maybe its just me, but as per the definition. A lot come across (myself included sometimes) as if we 100% know better and even could do better on all things football, players, managers, transfers etc. I love an interesting debate on an opinion on why Ole is shite, or this player is shite, but let's not speak like we know it all, is all I'm saying. Probably most don't speak like that, but you don't have to spend long on this forum to see that there are quick a few that are like that.
I don't think anyone really think that. I think the majority of us deep down know we don't understand football to the same degree experts and top managers do, and our opinions usually lack depth behind them, and have emotional aspect in them. I think the majority of us really believe that but the point is we have a big space to express our opinions and views on our team and thus makes us feel much more important and that our opinion is read and heard by others now, hence we want to talk and talk. However no one really will claim that he's an expert or anything.
 

SirAnderson

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I don't think anyone really think that. I think the majority of us deep down know we don't understand football to the same degree experts and top managers do, and our opinions usually lack depth behind them, and have emotional aspect in them. I think the majority of us really believe that but the point is we have a big space to express our opinions and views on our team and thus makes us feel much more important and that our opinion is read and heard by others now, hence we want to talk and talk. However no one really will claim that he's an expert or anything.
They could have fooled me! :lol:

But anyway, I hear you. And I get the emotional part very well. Just sucks to see our own fans get so polarized on issues rather than enjoying it while not trying to "die" for our opinions.
 

Irrational.

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I used to be a proper armchair manager in my teens and Liverpool losing would put me in a bad mood all weekend. In my twenties I got into a really bad state of depression which I won't get into but it made me question lots of things about my life. One of those things happened to be my relationship with football. I came to the realisation that allowing something to affect my life which I have no control over is a complete waste of time and energy. I still support Liverpool but I'm nowhere near the fanatic I used to be. Things like results, transfers, team line ups, substitutions really don't affect me emotionally anymore. I realised that as much as I think my opinion might be right do I really know more than Klopp who has watched the boys in training all week? Of course I don't.

This also helped me with the defensive attitude that most football fans have. I don't feel the need to defend Liverpool to anyone that puts them down. I'm not ashamed to admit if we were lucky or if everything went our way because at the end of the day I'm just a supporter and what happens to Liverpool doesn't help pay the mortgage or keep my friends or family safe.

This change of mentality has made it so much easier for me to enjoy football and supporting Liverpool without all the bull that comes with it. I celebrate the highs because they're great and I don't care about the lows because they have no bearing on my life at all. I cheer them on through thick and thin without moaning about every little decision the manager or board make. It's brilliant.
Respect. Great post.
 

KirkDuyt

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I tend to agree with this sentiment, except for the fact this type of behaviour has been around since the dawn of time. Armchair trainer or not though, we can do better upfront than Ryan Babel. I dint care what Koeman did in the past, he's a tit.
 

Zlatan 7

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The amount of people just in this forum split.

Before the match there were the feck the fa cup we need to rotate everyone and keep top players for fighting champs league spot with tight schedule coming up.

after the match, Ole is clueless, why rotate, we need momentum blah blah blah.

Not everyone is going to agree all the time so there’s bound to be one side that’s got a conflicting opinion, sometimes even the same person haha.

what gets me is the assurance people post with that they are right, obviously right and anyone who disagrees with them is simple or doesn’t understand football or that they know the players and tactics more than ole himself, quite funny sometimes actually.
 

Web of Bissaka

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This is not exclusive to just football fans isn't it.

Even those who are directly involved in the field, but not directly managing, eg. the vocal pundits, current/ex players, journalists, etc are also similarly giving their opinions like facts. "This manager should've and shouldn't do this, that, those, etc." "They should follow my opinions, it'll work like magics", "managing is easy! just do what i say" etc. Plenty of those people are what many fans labelled as "experience" and therefore more authentic in their opinions? despite how awfully wrong or awful it can be.

I do get the many points OP is making :D in the end, it's all just opinions -- you are right at some, and wrong at others. Even experts or so called professionals can get it wrong at times. And then in the end, ended up, we're humans in the end. Those who thinks their opinions are "godlike" and "fool-proof" facts! are annoying debaters. Pointless discussion with them. But I feel many here at the caf are more open-minded and willing to discuss and say their opinions can/are wrong at times (whether they openly admit it or silently, it matters not).

Having plenty of opinions, various kinds of opinions is actually fun. You learn more as you try to look at the many different point of views. I don't get this quick rejection of ideas or opinions... just because it doesn't agree with yours.
 

DWelbz19

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I used to be a proper armchair manager in my teens and Liverpool losing would put me in a bad mood all weekend. In my twenties I got into a really bad state of depression which I won't get into but it made me question lots of things about my life. One of those things happened to be my relationship with football. I came to the realisation that allowing something to affect my life which I have no control over is a complete waste of time and energy. I still support Liverpool but I'm nowhere near the fanatic I used to be. Things like results, transfers, team line ups, substitutions really don't affect me emotionally anymore. I realised that as much as I think my opinion might be right do I really know more than Klopp who has watched the boys in training all week? Of course I don't.

This also helped me with the defensive attitude that most football fans have. I don't feel the need to defend Liverpool to anyone that puts them down. I'm not ashamed to admit if we were lucky or if everything went our way because at the end of the day I'm just a supporter and what happens to Liverpool doesn't help pay the mortgage or keep my friends or family safe.

This change of mentality has made it so much easier for me to enjoy football and supporting Liverpool without all the bull that comes with it. I celebrate the highs because they're great and I don't care about the lows because they have no bearing on my life at all. I cheer them on through thick and thin without moaning about every little decision the manager or board make. It's brilliant.
Good post, this. I think it coincides with you as a human, generally. I was most rabid about football from about 16 to 21ish. Around the same age where you’re popping off to Sixth Form and Uni, thinking you’re the smartest cnut in every room you walk into. Or that you know things and see the bigger picture in way everyone else just doesn’t.
 

njred

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I used to be a proper armchair manager in my teens and Liverpool losing would put me in a bad mood all weekend. In my twenties I got into a really bad state of depression which I won't get into but it made me question lots of things about my life. One of those things happened to be my relationship with football. I came to the realisation that allowing something to affect my life which I have no control over is a complete waste of time and energy. I still support Liverpool but I'm nowhere near the fanatic I used to be. Things like results, transfers, team line ups, substitutions really don't affect me emotionally anymore. I realised that as much as I think my opinion might be right do I really know more than Klopp who has watched the boys in training all week? Of course I don't.

This also helped me with the defensive attitude that most football fans have. I don't feel the need to defend Liverpool to anyone that puts them down. I'm not ashamed to admit if we were lucky or if everything went our way because at the end of the day I'm just a supporter and what happens to Liverpool doesn't help pay the mortgage or keep my friends or family safe.

This change of mentality has made it so much easier for me to enjoy football and supporting Liverpool without all the bull that comes with it. I celebrate the highs because they're great and I don't care about the lows because they have no bearing on my life at all. I cheer them on through thick and thin without moaning about every little decision the manager or board make. It's brilliant.
I’m not there yet. Almost, especially now. Anyway second guessing and being an armchair manager is part of football and should be imo. If there wasn’t second guessing I believe change in clubs would be a lot slower. It might be wrong but supporters and pundits giving opinions that slag off teams probably help ownership make changes quicker than they normally would.
 

Dante

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They've all won the Champions League at least 30 times on FM. That makes them 3 times as knowledgable as Sir Alex Ferguson.
 

ChaddyP

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I used to be a proper armchair manager in my teens and Liverpool losing would put me in a bad mood all weekend. In my twenties I got into a really bad state of depression which I won't get into but it made me question lots of things about my life. One of those things happened to be my relationship with football. I came to the realisation that allowing something to affect my life which I have no control over is a complete waste of time and energy. I still support Liverpool but I'm nowhere near the fanatic I used to be. Things like results, transfers, team line ups, substitutions really don't affect me emotionally anymore. I realised that as much as I think my opinion might be right do I really know more than Klopp who has watched the boys in training all week? Of course I don't.

This also helped me with the defensive attitude that most football fans have. I don't feel the need to defend Liverpool to anyone that puts them down. I'm not ashamed to admit if we were lucky or if everything went our way because at the end of the day I'm just a supporter and what happens to Liverpool doesn't help pay the mortgage or keep my friends or family safe.

This change of mentality has made it so much easier for me to enjoy football and supporting Liverpool without all the bull that comes with it. I celebrate the highs because they're great and I don't care about the lows because they have no bearing on my life at all. I cheer them on through thick and thin without moaning about every little decision the manager or board make. It's brilliant.
This is a great post and I really hope more people watch and enjoy the game like This. I know I do. Less stressful
 

SirAnderson

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They've all won the Champions League at least 30 times on FM. That makes them 3 times as knowledgable as Sir Alex Ferguson.
It's definitely made some really believe they actually know better.
It's just getting worse and worse, and see it almost every day on the cafe, and personally for me, it makes debating insufferably hard and joyless with some folk.
I mean, its an opinions, lets be open and discuss them as such, rather than coming across like you just come out of a training session with the lads and you just chaired the tactics meeting this morning. :houllier:
 

Piratesoup

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I used to be a proper armchair manager in my teens and Liverpool losing would put me in a bad mood all weekend. In my twenties I got into a really bad state of depression which I won't get into but it made me question lots of things about my life. One of those things happened to be my relationship with football. I came to the realisation that allowing something to affect my life which I have no control over is a complete waste of time and energy. I still support Liverpool but I'm nowhere near the fanatic I used to be. Things like results, transfers, team line ups, substitutions really don't affect me emotionally anymore. I realised that as much as I think my opinion might be right do I really know more than Klopp who has watched the boys in training all week? Of course I don't.

This also helped me with the defensive attitude that most football fans have. I don't feel the need to defend Liverpool to anyone that puts them down. I'm not ashamed to admit if we were lucky or if everything went our way because at the end of the day I'm just a supporter and what happens to Liverpool doesn't help pay the mortgage or keep my friends or family safe.

This change of mentality has made it so much easier for me to enjoy football and supporting Liverpool without all the bull that comes with it. I celebrate the highs because they're great and I don't care about the lows because they have no bearing on my life at all. I cheer them on through thick and thin without moaning about every little decision the manager or board make. It's brilliant.
Great post. Should be pinned on top of the Football Forum.
 

Amarsdd

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It's basically the growing societal campaign against expertise seen in the bubble of football as well. Everyone thinks their opinion is on an equal footing with the experts and demands to be taken with equal seriousness.
 

youngrell

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You forgot about the Armchair DOF and Armchair Financial Director :smirk:

There is a strange phenomenon these days where the need to be right seems greater than the desire for the team to do well.
 

youngrell

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It's basically the growing societal campaign against expertise also seen in the bubble of football. Everyone thinks their opinion is on an equal footing with the experts and demands to be taken with equal seriousness.
That's a good point. Doctors et al are constantly questioned these days.
 

The Boy

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I think part of the issue is Manchester United (and Liverpool and others) have never really experienced real lows. As a Brighton fan I am just happy to be in the premiership, yes I'd love us to improve and get nto the top half, even Europe maybe. But having been to the bottom of the leagues and one game away from dropping out entirely, just another season in the top league is special. It's something I never thought I would see in my lifetime. (This opinion excludes city fans who have had bad times and are still utter entitled cnuts)

It's about expectations and naturally given your history and success especially over the last 30 years, your expectations are sky high, hence the lows feel awful. Whereas I half expect to go down every year so survival is special. Even staying in the Championship was special for us, getting promoted I imagine is a similar feeling to winning the Eureopan cup.
 

iHicksy

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My only real problem with this forum is the absolute ridiculous jumps on opinions on players from one game to the other. If a player does well then suddenly their one of the best in the world, and if they then make a mistake the next game or play poorly then they;re shit and need to be sold. There's no objectivity or middle ground. I don't know if it's something that stems from the social media culture of instant gratification or being a certain age and basing everything off of a computer game where players are either good, or not, based on their stats. Which some people then transfer over to real life.

On the subject of FIFA, it feels like some armchair managers base their opinions on players on nothing but computer game stats too. Without actually having spent any time watching them (the Ings thread is a good example of this). If a player isn't great in FM/FIFA he's immediately discarded. I just wish people would realise that real life football is nothing like a computer game. I see this the most in ratings of our players or a gross misunderstanding on what it takes to be a great footballer. Many armchair managers only seem able to quantify players contribution or skill on assists or goals. They don't seem able to comprehend the absolute value of people like Fred, or the potential of McT to be fantastic midfielders because of their contribution with workrate or positional sense. The same way that they don't seem to understand that "getting" the club is a vital part of being able to play here and being mentally strong and being a leader on the pitch is sometimes more important than being able to ping a ball into the top corner. Rant over.
 

Fosu-Mens

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My only real problem with this forum is the absolute ridiculous jumps on opinions on players from one game to the other. If a player does well then suddenly their one of the best in the world, and if they then make a mistake the next game or play poorly then they;re shit and need to be sold. There's no objectivity or middle ground. I don't know if it's something that stems from the social media culture of instant gratification or being a certain age and basing everything off of a computer game where players are either good, or not, based on their stats. Which some people then transfer over to real life.

On the subject of FIFA, it feels like some armchair managers base their opinions on players on nothing but computer game stats too. Without actually having spent any time watching them (the Ings thread is a good example of this). If a player isn't great in FM/FIFA he's immediately discarded. I just wish people would realise that real life football is nothing like a computer game. I see this the most in ratings of our players or a gross misunderstanding on what it takes to be a great footballer. Many armchair managers only seem able to quantify players contribution or skill on assists or goals. They don't seem able to comprehend the absolute value of people like Fred, or the potential of McT to be fantastic midfielders because of their contribution with workrate or positional sense. The same way that they don't seem to understand that "getting" the club is a vital part of being able to play here and being mentally strong and being a leader on the pitch is sometimes more important than being able to ping a ball into the top corner. Rant over.
People being short term subjective regarding players, especially 24 hours after a good/bad game is normal for any forum I think. Just stay away from certain threads in the forum during these times, or go to them to trash certain players if this is your thing.

Stats are good, not FM/Fifa stats, but long term quantified stats based on actual performances. Then comes the issue with "noise" in the stats, like the team, league, positional duties and system the player is put in. Sterling being touted as a good finisher last year due to scoring a decent number of goals would superficially seem to be true. His actual historical exp goals are higher than his total goals in the EPL, and when using the "eyetest" it is quite obvious that he is not a great finisher and his performances are down to his abilities aligning with the role he is put in. Sterling playing in a similar role to Daniel James against low block defences would not be that impressive.

Regarding the potential of McT or Fred due to their workrate and positional sense, this is evaluated without context. In low possession and defensive-oriented system/midfield roles, both would be able to perform at a reasonably high level. In a more progressive and possession-oriented system, their value would not be the same. Then one has the issue of unquantifiable elements related to the mentality, which are extremely difficult for "armchair managers" to gauge or understand. Abilities related to the technical aspect of the game(first touch, short and long passing, close control, weak foot etc) can be evaluated to some extent by everyone watching a game. And both McT and Fred got some issues in these areas.

So, how do you evaluate a players value to a team? It depends first on what you think should be our approach on how to win games. That is, what type of football is more likely to win us games and titles in the long run in your opinion? Lets coin this the "fans footballing paradigm continuum". Simplified: From Mourinho-esque approach to football on one side to Guardiola-esque football on the other.

If you adhere to the Mourinho paradigm, i.e. low block and low possession, and think that this would yield short/long term success; McT abilties suits this approach and he would be valuable. Same goes for Fred. If you align with Guardiola, then the answer should be different. Please note that even though one prefers one type of football, it is not like one should always have that approach regardless of the situation or who you play against, or the players available in the team, but it should be the way you play in most of your games.

Since I think that Guardiola's side of the continuum is far more likely than Mourinho's side to yield long term success, my opinion of McT and Fred as long term squad or rotational players is not that positive. Further, since I am of the opinion that the technical side of the game is not easy to radically improve, they are not likely to become very useful(unless the situation dictates us playing a certain type of football) in the future for how I think we should play.

From how OGS approach games, especially against other top sides, they are very suited to this type of football. And thus, given our current manager and his approach to football, they are valuable to the team. If you think OGS and his approach will bring us success, Fred and McT are valuable long term. If you don't think OGS approach to football will bring us success, they are not long term value based on their gaugable abilities. Should here be noted that the "mentality" aspect is not considered, and McT might have valuable traits here that would make him valuable as a squad player/backup somewhere down the pecking order.
 

M Bison

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I almost started a similar thread at the weekend after the Norwich game. The match day thread was ridiculous, with people criticising the rotation from Ole, and now we're seeing it in the Gomes thread about how he should be playing ahead of Lingard, Mata etc, along with all the noise and hatred directed at Woodward. None of us have a clue about the inner workings of the club and the interpersonal relationships within the squad and management, yet many fans think they know better.

Its not just our fans, its everywhere of course but its incredibly frustrating and naive.
 

FrankDrebin

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Yeah but I won the PL title with Derby County on Championship Manager 01/02, so I think I know alot more about football than most managing in the top flight.
 

Bilbo

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I think part of the issue is Manchester United (and Liverpool and others) have never really experienced real lows. As a Brighton fan I am just happy to be in the premiership, yes I'd love us to improve and get nto the top half, even Europe maybe. But having been to the bottom of the leagues and one game away from dropping out entirely, just another season in the top league is special. It's something I never thought I would see in my lifetime. (This opinion excludes city fans who have had bad times and are still utter entitled cnuts)

It's about expectations and naturally given your history and success especially over the last 30 years, your expectations are sky high, hence the lows feel awful. Whereas I half expect to go down every year so survival is special. Even staying in the Championship was special for us, getting promoted I imagine is a similar feeling to winning the Eureopan cup.
Good post. A large percentage of this forum, and our fanbase, started to follow United during the Ferguson years. Its good for our club that we have such a large global fanbase, and similar to the Yankees we have a specific type of image as a club that attracts supporters and always will.

The downside is that this generates expectations that the club cannot always fulfil, and when we don't we see what we are seeing now. A lack of patience and a sense of entitlement that isn't healthy.
 

Lynty

Full Member
Joined
Oct 21, 2014
Messages
1,788
Ye it's infuriating.

We can have an opinion, but our knowledge of the game and the characters in the squad scratches the surface compared to a coach. Even Moyes.
 

SirAnderson

Full Member
Joined
Aug 21, 2014
Messages
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Location
Johannesburg, South Africa
Good post. A large percentage of this forum, and our fanbase, started to follow United during the Ferguson years. Its good for our club that we have such a large global fanbase, and similar to the Yankees we have a specific type of image as a club that attracts supporters and always will.

The downside is that this generates expectations that the club cannot always fulfil, and when we don't we see what we are seeing now. A lack of patience and a sense of entitlement that isn't healthy.
It's crazy how much it has an influence. So many managers have lost their job because of it that probably deserved a bit more time.
Thank feck Manchester United couldn't give a rats arse about us moaning. Else we wouldn't have have Jose or LVG for so long.