Arsenal were predicted to finish 8th? Come on now, I know the standards at Arsenal have fallen, but surely anything below 6th is an embarrassment.
Arsenal 2021/22 | PLEASE LOCK (SERIOUSLY)
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Both of them have managers with an excellent track record of winning leagues and/or doing very well in the Champions League. So yeah, that’s the expectation. If not next season, definitely by their second full season in charge.
There’s a fine margin between winning big trophies and not winning them, so if they fall narrowly short in 2023/24 that obviously shouldn’t be a sackable offence. A season like Arteta just had - after holding the reigns as long as he has - really should be.
What was the approach you were taking? Getting into the CL? Guess where the team Conte went to ended up.
No point in debating on here. Artera is the worst manager in the league, well alongside Lampard, only the world class managers have finished ahead of him, but that wasn't Arteta that helped with that, that was all down to where our wage bill has us.
What’s this blank cheque United have Zidane about?
Literally their best option would be Luis Enrique after the World Cup (attacking football +long ball/counters if necessary + strong mentality); for 2023-24; I'm not sure if he even wants to manage in England.
That's true, and I imagine with the summer leavings it'll be a lot lower tbf
Liverpool are a good counterpoint, I think overall the wages are pretty reasonable. Klopp is pretty extraordinary though, and at the moment the PL is his and Pep's world. They're just so much better than everyone else. Tuchel is a great manager and he still finished miles of those two.
With regards to Arteta, they dropped the ball at the end of the season and I think that'll have ramifications for their summer, but he's put together the youngest side in the league, he's the youngest manager and while he's made plenty of mistakes he's also done a lot right. 5th isn't some great achievement but it's not really a failure either.
I think it's because the truth is kinda boring - he's performed acceptably.
Season 1 - Pretty good
Took over a team in 11th in December. Brought them up to 8th, won a trophy and qualified for the Europa League.
Season 2 - Pretty bad
Finished 8th and messed up a very winnable Europa League campaign.
Season 3 - On par
Finished 5th with the 5th highest wage bill and 5th/6th strongest squad.
He hasn't really overachieved or underachieved. In terms of results we're back where we were under the majority of Emery's tenure (barring the disastrous end that led to him being sacked). He's improved the foundations of the club by clearing out deadwood / unhappy players and thus dramatically reducing the squad's average age and wage bill. If he was to get hit by a bus tomorrow he would leave the club in a better position than when he arrived.
Is he likely to challenge Pep and Klopp's dominance in the near future. No? But neither are Tuchel and Conte, let alone ten Haag and (flavour of the month) Potter.
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I'd like to point out, I'm a big fan of Graham Potter. What he's achieved with Brighton is amazing, but there's not a great deal of evidence to suggest that having him replace Arteta would suddenly make Arsenal title challengers.
This was the wage bill for clubs in 19/20. Obviously it will be slightly different now.
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You realize right the reason people have low expectations from Arsenal is because of the manager managing the club. There is a reason no one expects him to compete with top managers. Spurs were even poor than you but they hired a top manager and pipped you guys.
Have you just invented this? Who made this prediction, they must be very important for it to be the basis of your defence of Arteta having flopped in a damp squib of a season after spending 150m quid?
The latest figures we have are for the 20/21 season. Liverpool has a turnover of £487.4m. Arsenal have a turnover of £324.5m. By way of comparison, United’s turnover was £494.1m. That puts the gap between United and Liverpool at about £7m and the gap between Liverpool and Arsenal at about £163m.
Anything to make excuses for him.
What was Liverpool's wage bill like 6/7 years ago? You all seem to act like Arteta is the only choice because nobody could possibly achieve something like winning the league, weren't Liverpool in basically the exact same position as you when they hired Rodgers and then moved to Klopp? Now they have won a CL and league and can afford to pay big wages and sign huge players, even though they were being run by relatively tight fisted Americans when this all began. Most of the Arsenal fans seem to have psyched themselves out of being a top club ever again, it's so weird to see.
@Daydreamer honestly it's a similar situation to us with Ole. Lots on here were satisfied with 2nd last season, myself included. But if you asked me in my heart of heart if he was really going to win the league the answer was a fat no. Same with Arteta - Conte is a world class manager and he's good enough. Arteta is not.
I don't know about 8th, but have a look how many didn't have Arsenal in the top 6 in this thread.
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/predict-the-top-6-in-order-2021-22.464601/
I only posted the details, I didn't say anything else about wages related to Liverpool, so not sure why your digging me out.
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Europe league champions 2023 here we come!
Tbh with United and Spurs it will depend on incoming transfers(Along with Conte saying at Spurs)although I wouldn't bet on them winning the league title. But if in 2 seasons time Ten Hag or Conte finished outside the top 4 in a season with no european football, I think both sets of fans would be rightfully talking about moving on to someone else.
Fair enough. It's not that I really dislike Arteta(Although even as United fan I'm still bitter over how they sacked Wenger!)just that there's doesn't seem to be a huge improvement. The failure to get 4th spot considering how awful everyone else was, is really poor imo.
I wouldn't worry about it, mate. He tends to get a little emotional when Arteta is involved.
Is there anyone actually acting like this, though? Klopp was already a world class coach before he left Germany. If Klopp hadn't joined Liverpool and was leaving Dortmund this Summer I would love him to replace Arteta. So would a lot of Arsenal fans. And likely Arsenal's owners. But that's not the situation we're in, there is no world class coach available to us to replace Arteta with. And we would struggle to attract him to Arsenal even if there was.
What you view as "psyching ourselves out of being a top club ever again" is actually being realistic about where we currently are. That's the approach the club is taking and it's a sensible first step towards once more challenging for the biggest prizes.
Arteta has front-loaded his tenure with a series of difficult decisions. Some of them have already paid off (cleared deadwood+unhappy players / younger squad / smaller wage bill). Others have backfired massively (weakening our squad in the January transfer window). But clear decisions were made with the long-term in mind. The club believes it makes sense for him to see that through next season rather than ripping up the foundations halfway through a rebuild. That way, if we don't see any progression, we can look to replace Arteta from a position of stability. His successor would thus avoid ten Haag dilemma of managing a squad that has been Frankensteined out of contrasting Moyes/van Haal/Mourinho/Ole philosophies.
Weren’t you predicted 8th because he’d landed you there for two seasons in a row though? I was a massive fan of Ole as our manager but reading this thread makes me realise what it’s like to be on the other side in a way.
He's spent close to 250m € and had one of the best opportunities the club has had in recent times to finish top 4 and bottled it in style. He's been mediocre at best and his PR team still keep on lavishing him with praises on social media and premier league shows.
Thing is, I don't see any Arsenal fan on here saying he's the next Pep or Klopp. Far from it.
All we are saying is he's done an ok job so far, he'll get another transfer window to try & improve the team further, and we'll see if he does. If he does, then good, if it collapses like Ole, then we can change. That not what most managers are judged on, some sort of progression? As soon as it regresses then its usually changed?
People keep talking about spending €250M as if no-one else has spent any. I'll be surprised if most of the top 6 hasn't spent that at the same time.
It’s exactly the same as United with Ole. As a few have been saying.
There’s literally zero progression with the odd run of results and false hope.
spot on
I agree with you about Arsenal. I think when it came to the crunch you blew a top four race there for the taking but very few would have had you in fourth from the start of the season, fifth or sixth would be about right. I personally don't see you winning the title under Arteta but there's no shame in that given the current lie of the land.
The jury's out on whether you'll actually make progress under Arteta, it seems like you're treading water a bit but you have good young players so let's see what the future holds.
City - £276m
Liverpool - £158m (Amazing)
Chelsea - £329m
Spurs - £216m
Arsenal - £241m
United - £268m
The average spending for a “Big Six” club during Arteta’s tenure is £248m. So him spending £241m is a bit of a non-story as it’s actually slightly below average.
You'll be stuck with a squad assembled entirely by Arteta that have achieved nothing, I'm sure the next person will have to bin half of them. 3 years in and barely any difference, I would be wanting to make a change if I was you. Who knows, maybe Arteta will be the second coming of Christ next season.
United fans or Spurs fans expecting a title race within 2 years are wholely unrealistic given the squads, the weaknesses in their XI and the weaknesses in the club culture. I will point out it took SAF 6 1/2 years to finally win a title. A large part of that time was reshaping the club culture and ofcourse building an XI that was on the level of it's rivals.
You have to ask yourself how many of your players get into City or Liverpool's XI. I'll say Arsenal don't have any that start for either. Maybe an on form Partey at a push. United, CR7 as striker I suppose, other than that I don't see it. Spurs would have Kane and Son starting for both but other than that none of their players get close.
It took Klopp three full seasons to build a side that could compete for the title as well. By his third (his fourth in total) we were able to put a challenge in, and by his fourth full season we actually won it.
That’s how long it can take when you’re starting all over again.
And you had the bones of the squad that put a title challenge in 13/14 almost winning. And you did quite well to get the Coutinho, Suarez and Sterling money amongst doing other shrewd business to fund big purchases. Without that it probably takes much longer. That all alongside Klopp likely being the best in the world at getting the most bang for his buck out of players abilities.
That's because of Arteta though. If they had Conte or another top manager there's no chance people would predict them to be out of the top 6.
It's why ive asked a few times on here with everyone having a go at Arteta achieving nothing, what it is the expect from Ten Hag & how patient they will be with him, & how will they actually judge him if he doesn't win prizes. I've read they expect a title challenge within 2 years from a few different guys, if he manages that he's done brilliant, I remain sceptical in the extreme though.
So your saying he's exceeded the Cafs expectations then?
Technically he did exceed the expectations (at least for me) but then one has to look at the context as well that he and his side somehow let the 4th spot slip to spurs. It's like whenever there was a pressure on you guys you slipped big time.It's why ive asked a few times on here with everyone having a go at Arteta achieving nothing, what it is the expect from Ten Hag & how patient they will be with him, & how will they actually judge him if he doesn't win prizes. I've read they expect a title challenge within 2 years from a few different guys, if he manages that he's done brilliant, I remain sceptical in the extreme though.
So your saying he's exceeded the Cafs expectations then?
As for ETH, for me if he finishes outside4th or doesn't win europa then it is a failure of a season. And trust me if he finished 8th then definitely our fans won't be sugarcoating him like I see with some of you lot doing for Arteta.
Good. You're Man Utd, your bigger than us in every tangible measurement. Your floor shouldn't be as low as ours.
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Would you sack ETH if United finishes out of the top 6 and doesn't win the EL next year ?
Outside top 6 will be a huge failure. Yes we have had an awful season but that's why Ole and RT won't be managing us. My expectations are top 4 and I feel it should be attainable.
True that but you are also a pretty big club and should not be measured like Westham or Leicester.
Let me ask you what's the end goal with Arteta. Would you be fine if he finishes 6th next season and doesn't win the europa either?
Nope. They won't sack him this much sooner on some conditions. Playing staffs improvement is must as well as how good they will be played in big games.Results not matter. The visible improvement is key.
But will not renew his contract at end of third season if not able to finish in top 4.
So if you don't win 4th next season it's a failure of a season? Bare in mind you seem to have player power that seem to attempt to undermine your various managers. IMO you don't have any good centre midfielders unless you sign them this window. Pogba is leaving. Varane is realistically your only competant CB imo. Your forwards are overall of a very good level but you've lost Greenwood and I believe Cavani is off (correct me if I'm wrong) and Sancho hasn't quite adapted to the PL yet. And then you don't really have fullbacks who effectively link up with the attack.
I think you'd need a mind blowing Summer window to get top 4. In my mind you need 2-3 top CMs, 1-2 CBs, an attacking fullback and a dynamic winger who can double as a CF. I always wonder why golden boy Martial didn't come good for you. It seemed like he had the world at his feet as a youngster and was poised to be a top player in his mid 20s.
Really instead of getting CR7 and Sancho you should of signed 2 midfielders and a fullback last summer imo. If you let midfielders dictate deep you could play Pogba further forward where he excels and I don't think you should of signed Fernandes who wants to play in the exact same places Pogba is best in.
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