Arsenal 2021/22 | PLEASE LOCK (SERIOUSLY)

[justsomebloke]

Hasn't Calvert Lewin partaken in a) alot more minutes on the pitch, and b) contested a lot more aerial balls? In which case these stats need to be taken with a massive load of context.

He certainly has, but the stats as posted are per 90 minutes played. In any case, that doesn't affect the %.

As is evident from the stats, DCL does have a higher number of aerial duels than Abraham per90: More than 9, compared to a little less than 6.

All stats need to be taken with a load of context. But the question here was if Abraham won a larger proprtion of his aerial duels than the two other players. And he does.

Abrahams winning % is absolutely top drawer - must be one of the best, possibly THE best, among PL strikers. And it's not because he doesn't have a lot of aerial duels either - he's in the 80 percentile for number of aerial duels won/90.

 

[GoonerBear]

If Ben White is going to fix their defence, Aaron Ramsdale is seen as the solution in goal and no one replaces Granit Xhaka then yeah, things are not exactly looking up for them.

I don't get it with White. He's not looked anything special in the games I've seen him, and statistically he's awful. Maybe I'm missing something.

The thing is, in my opinion, the defence doesn't need 'fixed' as its not broken. It needed someone to come in & help improve our play out from the back, with Luiz gone. I'm hoping for a Luiz type player but without the mistakes.

Thanks for the stats on Abraham, what stats do you see on White that make him seem awful can I ask?

Ramsdale would be being signed as backup initially, and I agree about Xhaka, we need a replacement for him, Lokonga is more a replacement for Ceballos in terms of squad depth.

What was the point of the game against Watford? Considering Watford played two nights ago, seems a bit strange that Arsenal would play them and waste potential to squeeze in another proper pre season run out?

It was squeezed in when we couldn't go to Florida. Had a closed door game vs Millwall at the weekend, & midweek vs Watford, I'm guessing it was easier to arrange at short notice because they are local, Watford literally train next door to Arsenal.

 

[Champ]

He certainly has, but the stats as posted are per 90 minutes played. In any case, that doesn't affect the %.

Again though context is required - DCL obviously attempts more aerial duals per 90, by a large margin, so stands to reason again that he will not win as many in terms of percenatge, however wins more than Tammy per 90 in terms of actual numbers,
Comparison stats without context are misleading.

 

[Champ]

The thing is, in my opinion, the defence doesn't need 'fixed' as its not broken. It needed someone to come in & help improve our play out from the back, with Luiz gone. I'm hoping for a Luiz type player but without the mistakes.

Thanks for the stats on Abraham, what stats do you see on White that make him seem awful can I ask?

Ramsdale would be being signed as backup initially, and I agree about Xhaka, we need a replacement for him, Lokonga is more a replacement for Ceballos in terms of squad depth.



It was squeezed in when we couldn't go to Florida. Had a closed door game vs Millwall at the weekend, & midweek vs Watford, I'm guessing it was easier to arrange at short notice because they are local, Watford literally train next door to Arsenal.

Makes sense,

I thought it was a bit strange, but when it's put like that it does make perfect sense, thanks!

 

[justsomebloke]

Again though context is required - DCL obviously attempts more aerial duals per 90, by a large margin, so stands to reason again that he will not win as many in terms of percenatge, however wins more than Tammy per 90 in terms of actual numbers,
Comparison stats without context are misleading.

A specific question was asked, and that question has a specific answer. The context you ask for is in the stats. And no one has, as far as I've noticed, argued that Tammy Abraham is a superior aerial player compared to DCL.

As for taking it for granted that more duels=lower winning percentage, that's something in need of proof. It may be the case, but "stands to reason" doesn't cut it.

Also, note that while Abraham has considerably fewer duels/90 than DCL, he still has a very high number for a striker. Even if you compare him to CBs, who generally have both a higher number of aerial duels and much better winning% than other positions, he'd be doing well in terms of number of aerial duels won/90. All this looks to me like a pretty clear indication that he's a very effective aerial player. So of course is DCL. As for who among them is the better, I don't think that can be answered straightforwardly by stats.

 

[duffer]

An awful lot of Tammy's "aerial duels" are in his own penalty box when he's defending corners (which he is fantastic at).

 

[GoonerBear]

An awful lot of Tammy's "aerial duels" are in his own penalty box when he's defending corners (which he is fantastic at).

To be honest, that makes sense. I would think that Everton played more direct than Chelsea?

 

[duffer]

To be honest, that makes sense. I would think that Everton played a more direct than Chelsea?

I don't watch much Everton but wouldn't say Chelsea are particularly "direct".

 

[justsomebloke]

The thing is, in my opinion, the defence doesn't need 'fixed' as its not broken. It needed someone to come in & help improve our play out from the back, with Luiz gone. I'm hoping for a Luiz type player but without the mistakes.

Thanks for the stats on Abraham, what stats do you see on White that make him seem awful can I ask?

Ramsdale would be being signed as backup initially, and I agree about Xhaka, we need a replacement for him, Lokonga is more a replacement for Ceballos in terms of squad depth.

Across the board really. Although there is a major cautionary red light in that he spent quite a lot of time in the midfield last season, which naturally affects many of the stats you'd judge a CB on. So there's that, but it's more that I don't really see something very special when I watch him play, and when I turn to stats I don't find anything that contradicts that impression. I am more or less assuming that I am missing something, because that is really a lot more likely than him being bought for 50m by a major club and chosen for England out of sheer incompetence or blind faith. Some of his better stats fit the expectation of helping with playing out from the back. And of course, he hardly has Luiz's capacity for brain farts at the worst possible moments. But the thing is, brain farts aside, Luiz was a player of major qualities, and White just doesn't look like he is, at least not yet.

As for the stats, for what they're worth given the above-mentioned caution, he doesn't really stack up impressively in any relevant category. His worst areas are Dribbled past, clearances, disposessed, aerial duels won and aerial winning %, where he's in the bottom 20% of CBs statistically. Obviously, some of those are affected negatively if you spend time in the midfield. Then there's a load where he's sub-average (lower than the 50 percentile among CBs): Passes completed and % of passes completed, interceptions, touches on the ball, progressive carrying distance, miscontrols, fouls committed, regaining the ball. There's few areas where he's okay statistically (50-80 percentile), but at least some of them are ones where you'll get better numbers if you play in the midfield: Passes into the attacking third, progressive passes, shot-creating actions, number of tackles and blocks.

I agree Ramsdale would hardly displace Leno while he is around, but will he be? And given needs elsewhere, I don't understand why Arsenal would spend that amount of money on a keeper unless they saw him as someone who will step into those shoes in the relatively near future (or why Ramsdale would make the move unless he's given assurances of that kind). He may be good enough to be a starter in the PL, but for a club who aspires to be top 4? I don't see it.

 

[MO_Football92]

Across the board really. Although there is a major cautionary red light in that he spent quite a lot of time in the midfield last season, which naturally affects many of the stats you'd judge a CB on. So there's that, but it's more that I don't really see something very special when I watch him play, and when I turn to stats I don't find anything that contradicts that impression. I am more or less assuming that I am missing something, because that is really a lot more likely than him being bought for 50m by a major club and chosen for England out of sheer incompetence or blind faith. But I still think it's a stretch to expect him to improve Arsenals defence replacing David Luis, in a big way. Except of course he doesn't have Luis' propensity for serious brain farts at the worst possible moment.

As for the stats, for what they're worth given the above-mentioned caution, he doesn't really stack up impressively in any relevant category. His worst areas are Dribbled past, clearances, disposessed, aerial duels won and aerial winning %, where he's in the bottom 20% of CBs statistically. Obviously, some of those are affected negatively if you spend time in the midfield. Then there's a load where he's sub-average (lower than the 50 percentile among CBs): Passes completed and % of passes completed, interceptions, touches on the ball, progressive carrying distance, miscontrols, fouls committed, regaining the ball. There's few areas where he's okay statistically (50-80 percentile), but at least some of them are ones where you'll get better numbers if you play in the midfield: Passes into the attacking third, progressive passes, shot-creating actions, number of tackles and blocks.

Spending £50m on White in this covid market is a waste of money imo. Especially considering we're out of Europe and havent managed finances well recently.

Wenger would've found a better young player on the continent for 1/5 of that price.

 

[Champ]

A specific question was asked, and that question has a specific answer. The context you ask for is in the stats. And no one has, as far as I've noticed, argued that Tammy Abraham is a superior aerial player compared to DCL.

As for taking it for granted that more duels=lower winning percentage, that's something in need of proof. It may be the case, but "stands to reason" doesn't cut it.

Also, note that while Abraham has considerably fewer duels/90 than DCL, he still has a very high number for a striker. Even if you compare him to CBs, who generally have both a higher number of aerial duels and much better winning% than other positions, he'd be doing well in terms of number of aerial duels won/90. All this looks to me like a pretty clear indication that he's a very effective aerial player. So of course is DCL. As for who among them is the better, I don't think that can be answered straightforwardly by stats.

Fair enough, but the insinuation in picking that someone has higher percentage aerial dual win rate is that they are better in the air.

Stats without any context are misleading, thats the point i am making, as one post has already pointed out - where these aerial duals take place is just as important, who they were against is just as important too. All well and good having a high percentage of aerial balls that are won, yet majority of those were against Juan Mata for example in the middle of the pitch (a wild example but you get the drift!) then things are a bit misleading.

 

[GoonerBear]

Across the board really. Although there is a major cautionary red light in that he spent quite a lot of time in the midfield last season, which naturally affects many of the stats you'd judge a CB on. So there's that, but it's more that I don't really see something very special when I watch him play, and when I turn to stats I don't find anything that contradicts that impression. I am more or less assuming that I am missing something, because that is really a lot more likely than him being bought for 50m by a major club and chosen for England out of sheer incompetence or blind faith. Some of his better stats fit the expectation of helping with playing out from the back. And of course, he hardly has Luiz's capacity for brain farts at the worst possible moments. But the thing is, brain farts aside, Luiz was a player of major qualities, and White just doesn't look like he is, at least not yet.

As for the stats, for what they're worth given the above-mentioned caution, he doesn't really stack up impressively in any relevant category. His worst areas are Dribbled past, clearances, disposessed, aerial duels won and aerial winning %, where he's in the bottom 20% of CBs statistically. Obviously, some of those are affected negatively if you spend time in the midfield. Then there's a load where he's sub-average (lower than the 50 percentile among CBs): Passes completed and % of passes completed, interceptions, touches on the ball, progressive carrying distance, miscontrols, fouls committed, regaining the ball. There's few areas where he's okay statistically (50-80 percentile), but at least some of them are ones where you'll get better numbers if you play in the midfield: Passes into the attacking third, progressive passes, shot-creating actions, number of tackles and blocks.

I agree Ramsdale would hardly displace Leno while he is around, but will he be? And given needs elsewhere, I don't understand why Arsenal would spend that amount of money on a keeper unless they saw him as someone who will step into those shoes in the relatively near future (or why Ramsdale would make the move unless he's given assurances of that kind). He may be good enough to be a starter in the PL, but for a club who aspires to be top 4? I don't see it.

Thanks for the detailed response. Yeah, I think it's fair to say the jury is still out on Ben White. What gives me some hope, rather than confidence, is that he's played through every division from League 2 to EPL, & there's not been a fan of any clubs that complain about his defending in general, including aerially where I probably have most concern, in fact coaches, fans & players in general wherever he's played all think he has the potential to be a top player.

The proof as they say will be in the pudding. On paper I think a partnership with Gabriel makes sense, Gabriel bigger, more aggressive, more front foot, White better on the ball, a bit more measured, but we all know the game isn't played on paper.

What equally is important to defence is the protection in front of them, & we need that partner for Partey that is hopefully more mobile than Xhaka to help provide that.

I hope with White / Gabriel & Partey & a more mobile partner we are able to play slightly higher & squeeze the game up more. From the look of our pre season games it looks like we are trying to press further up, let's hope thats the case when the real thing starts.

 

[justsomebloke]

Fair enough, but the insinuation in picking that someone has higher percentage aerial dual win rate is that they are better in the air.

Stats without any context are misleading, thats the point i am making, as one post has already pointed out - where these aerial duals take place is just as important, who they were against is just as important too. All well and good having a high percentage of aerial balls that are won, yet majority of those were against Juan Mata for example in the middle of the pitch (a wild example but you get the drift!) then things are a bit misleading.

Well, on the other hand it won't make good discussion any easier if you treat any statistical information as if it amounted to a distorted, contextless argument nobody's actually made? And it would actually be perfectly reasonable to see a better aerial dual win rate as pointing in the direction of that player being a better aerial player. It just isn't conclusive. If there's relevant context to point out, then just point it out (as indeed you did).

Your last argument there doesn't cut it though - because the factors you point out generally won't apply when you look at a large number of cases, which you do when we talk about season-long figures for players with a significant number of games. If you have 200 PL aerial duels, very few of them are going to be with Juan Mata and on the whole they'll tend to be against the same opponents faced by other PL players playing the same position as you.

 

[Champ]

Well, on the other hand it won't make good discussion any easier if you treat any statistical information as if it amounted to a distorted, contextless argument nobody's actually made? And it would actually be perfectly reasonable to see a better aerial dual win rate as pointing in the direction of that player being a better aerial player. It just isn't conclusive. If there's relevant context to point out, then just point it out (as indeed you did).

Your last argument there doesn't cut it though - because the factors you point out generally won't apply when you look at a large number of cases, which you do when we talk about season-long figures for players with a significant number of games. If you have 200 PL aerial duels, very few of them are going to be with Juan Mata and on the whole they'll tend to be against the same opponents faced by other PL players playing the same position as you.

Theres the issue with direct comparisons between Calvert Lewin and Abrahams, the fact that Tammy only played 60 minutes or more against 9 Premier League opposition, so again the stats comaprisons are immediately skewed.

Stats have their benefits, without doubt, however not when its just a direct comparison of numbers. Stats need to hvae deeper thought and meaning behind just a percentage over 90 minutes,

As Tammy has only played 90 minutes 12 times the season just gone, his stats will not be compariable with those of Calvert Lewin over the course of a season where Calvert Lewin has played a load more 90 minute periods.

Anyhow, I fear I am derailing this thread so i will stop being so pedantic. Sorry mate!

 

[justsomebloke]

Theres the issue with direct comparisons between Calvert Lewin and Abrahams, the fact that Tammy only played 60 minutes or more against 9 Premier League opposition, so again the stats comaprisons are immediately skewed.

Stats have their benefits, without doubt, however not when its just a direct comparison of numbers. Stats need to hvae deeper thought and meaning behind just a percentage over 90 minutes,

As Tammy has only played 90 minutes 12 times the season just gone, his stats will not be compariable with those of Calvert Lewin over the course of a season where Calvert Lewin has played a load more 90 minute periods.

Anyhow, I fear I am derailing this thread so i will stop being so pedantic. Sorry mate!

I don't think you're being pedantic. Point and counterpoint, that's how we progress.

I was going to take issue with your above point, on the basis that I wouldn't think Abraham's 11 or so 90-minuters is so little that it it could be expected to significantly skew the stats. But there's a good way of checking, which is to look at the previous season for any major contrast. Which I did, and it turns out you have a point. Abraham won 37,9% of his aerial duels in the 19-20 season, when he played a lot more than he did this year. Which is still pretty good for a striker. Go figure.

DCL was pretty similar to this year, at 46,4%.

 

[Champ]

I don't think you're being pedantic. Point and counterpoint, that's how we progress.

I was going to take issue with your above point, on the basis that I wouldn't think Abraham's 11 or so 90-minuters is so little that it it could be expected to significantly skew the stats. But there's a good way of checking, which is to look at the previous season for any major contrast. Which I did, and it turns out you have a point. Abraham won 37,9% of his aerial duels in the 19-20 season, when he played a lot more than he did this year. Which is still pretty good for a striker. Go figure.

DCL was pretty similar to this year, at 46,4%.

I rate Tammy for what it's worth, hes definitely useful and in a team like Arsenal i can see him scoring goals, similar to Giroud just without the extreme technical ability! What I like about him is his workrate, he seems to be a player that doesn't mind facilitating the press, which would suit Arsenal also.

Surprises me that Calvert Lewin has a similar percentage across the two seasons though!

 

[Rajiztar]

I don't think you're being pedantic. Point and counterpoint, that's how we progress.

I was going to take issue with your above point, on the basis that I wouldn't think Abraham's 11 or so 90-minuters is so little that it it could be expected to significantly skew the stats. But there's a good way of checking, which is to look at the previous season for any major contrast. Which I did, and it turns out you have a point. Abraham won 37,9% of his aerial duels in the 19-20 season, when he played a lot more than he did this year. Which is still pretty good for a striker. Go figure.

DCL was pretty similar to this year, at 46,4%.

Do you watch Abraham played for Chelsea as a striker. He could have scored minimum 10 more goals if he headed properly. He need to improve a lot in his aerial ability.

He mostly mistimed jumps yet able to win headers because of his height some times but that's only good for stats that he won the header but not able to direct it into the net because direction or power needed to guide the ball into an empty net.

And also duffer clearly said he won headers while defending too. He was winning headers in near post lot while defending while defending corners too. So inflated the actual data a lot.

Not saying he is useless but aerial ability not his strongest point in attack.

 

[justsomebloke]

Do you watch Abraham played for Chelsea as a striker. He could have scored minimum 10 more goals if he headed properly. He need to improve a lot in his aerial ability.

He mostly mistimed jumps yet able to win headers because of his height some times but that's only good for stats that he won the header but not able to direct it into the net.

And also duffer clearly said he won headers while defending too. He was winning headers in near corner lot while defending too. So inflated the actual data a lot.

Not saying he is useless but aerial ability not his strongest point in attack.

Never said it was. I realise of course that aerial duels won includes defensive ones, but those are of some importance too. Aerial play specifically as a scoring tool is a different issue.

But the debate's probably wandered off a bit. Someone brought up the aerial% of 3 players, and since I had them, I posted them. That was all really.

 

[ThierryFabregas]

As for the stats, for what they're worth given the above-mentioned caution, he doesn't really stack up impressively in any relevant category. His worst areas are Dribbled past, clearances, disposessed, aerial duels won and aerial winning %, where he's in the bottom 20% of CBs statistically. Obviously, some of those are affected negatively if you spend time in the midfield. Then there's a load where he's sub-average (lower than the 50 percentile among CBs): Passes completed and % of passes completed, interceptions, touches on the ball, progressive carrying distance, miscontrols, fouls committed, regaining the ball. There's few areas where he's okay statistically (50-80 percentile), but at least some of them are ones where you'll get better numbers if you play in the midfield: Passes into the attacking third, progressive passes, shot-creating actions, number of tackles and blocks.

I don't think stats help in judging defenders for the most part. But that aside, he's a ball playing defender who constantly knocks 70 yard balls onto a six pence or glides past 3 or 4 players even carrying the ball as far as the penalty area. That combination of abilities in a defender is quite rare. Arteta wants to play out from the back so football will be far less painful to watch with White playing out from the back than watching clog boots Gabriel pass back and forth to Rob Holding for the 70th time.

 

[justsomebloke]

I don't think stats help in judging defenders for the most part. But that aside, he's a ball playing defender who constantly knocks 70 yard balls onto a six pence or glides past 3 or 4 players even carrying the ball as far as the penalty area. That combination of abilities in a defender is quite rare. Arteta wants to play out from the back so football will be far less painful to watch with White playing out from the back than watching clog boots Gabriel pass back and forth to Rob Holding for the 70th time.

Generally speaking, I agree with your point about the limitations of stats in judging especially central defenders (speed, positioning, lots of important things not really caught well, if at all). But surely passing and ball-carrying are things that stats should say something meaningful about? And White's passing accuracy is in sub-50 percentiles all the way. Given that he's got a 64,3% passing accuracy for long passes he can hardly be "constantly knocking 70 yard balls onto a six pence" ? In fact that puts him in the 45 percentile, which implies that the majority of CBs hit accurate long passes more often than he does. His ball-carrying stats are mostly good (and in some cases very good) for a CB, but I would assume that's also got something to do with him spending some time in the midfield. And anyway, they aren't nearly as good as Luiz's.

Gabriel and Holding actually both have a significantly better passing accuracy than White, and also more passes into the attacking third. That's not just because they keep playing the ball back and forth at the back more than White engaged in, because Holding at least also hit more progressive passes/90 than White did (though Gabriel had significantly fewer). They also both have much higher progressive distance/90 to their passing. Holding hit almost twice as many long passes/90 as White did and with a much better accuracy, Gabriel nearly 50% more and with a slightly better accuracy. And they both have much higher progressive carrying distance than White and, though not to quite same extent, more progressive carries, meaning that they both did much more moving forward with the ball than White did last season, and carried it longer in each carry. In a few other cases White has better stats than them, but on the whole he does not really look better when it comes to those aspects of the game.

But we'll see. Role and system matter too, and he is by all accounts a bright young player.

 

[ThierryFabregas]

Generally speaking, I agree with your point about the limitations of stats in judging especially central defenders (speed, positioning, lots of important things not really caught well, if at all). But surely passing and ball-carrying are things that stats should say something meaningful about? And White's passing accuracy is in sub-50 percentiles all the way. Given that he's got a 64,3% passing accuracy for long passes he can hardly be "constantly knocking 70 yard balls onto a six pence" ? In fact that puts him in the 45 percentile, which implies that the majority of CBs hit accurate long passes more often than he does. His ball-carrying stats are mostly good (and in some cases very good) for a CB, but I would assume that's also got something to do with him spending some time in the midfield. And anyway, they aren't nearly as good as Luiz's.

Gabriel and Holding actually both have a significantly better passing accuracy than White, and also more passes into the attacking third. That's not just because they keep playing the ball back and forth at the back more than White engaged in, because Holding at least also hit more progressive passes/90 than White did (though Gabriel had significantly fewer). They also both have much higher progressive distance/90 to their passing. Holding hit almost twice as many long passes/90 as White did and with a much better accuracy, Gabriel nearly 50% more and with a slightly better accuracy. And they both have much higher progressive carrying distance than White and, though not to quite same extent, more progressive carries, meaning that they both did much more moving forward with the ball than White did last season, and carried it longer in each carry. In a few other cases White has better stats than them, but on the whole he does not really look better when it comes to those aspects of the game.

But we'll see. Role and system matter too, and he is by all accounts a bright young player.

Statistically you make perfect sense. But then again statistically one of the worst Arsenal defenders to pull on the shirt in Mustafi is supposedly very good. I'll be honest my main knowledge of Ben is youtube highlights, which is obviously flawed and limited. BUT he can do things with a football that none of our defenders can do. You can talk about progressive passes and passes into the final third but our defenders can only really knock it out to the fullback. So they can do that 10 times a game and get good stats but really it's not like they've played a defense cutting pass, which I think White has shown he is capable of doing.

I'll find out as the season progresses whether your stats were right and my admitadly flawed eye test is wrong.

BTW in terms of ball carrying, this is something most stats don't cover. But White had 0.7 take ons per game compared to Luiz's 0.3 according to Squawka

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

 

[SoCross]

Tweet

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Going to go bang what?

Linked to Maddison too now.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

Going to go bang what?

Linked to Maddison too now.

Who knows

 

[horsechoker]

Going to go bang what?

Bang average

 

[roonster09]

Maddison would be brilliant signing for Arsenal. Dont think Leicester will sell him.

 

[jus2nang]

Spending £50m on White in this covid market is a waste of money imo. Especially considering we're out of Europe and havent managed finances well recently.

Wenger would've found a better young player on the continent for 1/5 of that price.

Wenger's record of signing centre halves is sketchy at best. Squilacci, Stepanovs, Cygan, Senderos, Gallas, Silvestre etc.

 

[MO_Football92]

Wenger's record of signing centre halves is sketchy at best. Squilacci, Stepanovs, Cygan, Senderos, Gallas, Silvestre etc.

True

 

[OneUnited24]

Maddison would be brilliant signing for Arsenal. Dont think Leicester will sell him.

Classic Arsenal thought, they leak links to top players to ensure they get their fans to renew season tickets.

 

[flappyjay]

Wenger's record of signing centre halves is sketchy at best. Squilacci, Stepanovs, Cygan, Senderos, Gallas, Silvestre etc.

I swear minus gallas the rest were bought for less than 15m combined. I think most of those were gambles that didn't work out.

 

[Pep's Suit]

They're a 6th to 10th club now and only relevant because of their huge fanbase (and AFTV).

 

[Dancfc]

I actually think their Amazon series will be brilliant, especially now that Xhaka is staying.

Spurs/Levy were always going to make sure there's was carefully edited, I don't think these will care as much. If anything they'll probably try and portray the players worse than they are to make it look like Arteta has an impossible job.

 

[GoonerBear]

Classic Arsenal thought, they leak links to top players to ensure they get their fans to renew season tickets.

Think season ticket renewal was a good couple of months back, & considering there is also a big waiting list, I'm not sure that's a trick Arsenal need to employ.

 

[FootballHQ]

Probably already been covered but this talk of Xhaka getting a new 4 year deal when he was on the verge of going to Roma is a bit odd isn't it? Can't remember exactly when he joined but pretty sure Arsenal have never finished in the top 4 with him as regular starter in midfield.

He can have some good games during a season and had a good euros but c'mon compared to their past he's much poorer than say even a Gilberto Silva player. I'm never scared playing an Arsenal team with Xhaka as midfield lynchpin.

Seems an error to me and probably sums up Arteta a bit, does some good work/good signings in some areas of the pitch but lacks ruthlessness (or perhaps support of the board to prune experienced players from key areas of the pitch).

 

[GoonerBear]

Probably already been covered but this talk of Xhaka getting a new 4 year deal when he was on the verge of going to Roma is a bit odd isn't it? Can't remember exactly when he joined but pretty sure Arsenal have never finished in the top 4 with him as regular starter in midfield.

He can have some good games during a season and had a good euros but c'mon compared to their past he's much poorer than say even a Gilberto Silva player. I'm never scared playing an Arsenal team with Xhaka as midfield lynchpin.

Seems an error to me and probably sums up Arteta a bit, does some good work/good signings in some areas of the pitch but lacks ruthlessness (or perhaps support of the board to prune experienced players from key areas of the pitch).

Xhaka is a difficult one. We all know that he has certain flaws to his game. However, I'm not sure we ever had the right setup to help cover those flaws. I don't really have a problem with Xhaka the player, I have a problem with getting the right mix & balance around him.

Im not sure we've ever had the legs or physicality around him. Last season when fit the Partey / Xhaka pivot seemed to work quite well, was a good fit & had good balance. However, Xhaka / Elneny or Ceballos isn't, & was either a big drop off in quality or left us exposed.

Now, Lokonga seems to have a lot of Partey's qualities, so with Partey injured again he should make the next best Partey partner, but Arteta will probably play Elneny which just doesn't work as well.

I certainly didn't mind Xhaka leaving, actually think it was probably best for all parties if he did. However, I'm not sure if guys like Neves are worth 3x what Roma were trying to get Partey for, & that I think was the main issue.

The new contract doesn't really bother me as he's far from finished & still capable of contributing well as part of the squad, unlike someone like Bellerin it seems whwre I can't remember his last good game.

 

[FootballHQ]

Is Willock going to get a proper chance at least up to January? He should work o.k infront of Xhaka-Partey given how well he was doing getting into the box for Newcastle and finishing off chances.

 

[GoonerBear]

Is Willock going to get a proper chance at least up to January? He should work o.k infront of Xhaka-Partey given how well he was doing getting into the box for Newcastle and finishing off chances.

Doubt it, think Newcastle will eventually buy him to be honest. We'd need to change to 433 I think to get the best out of him, & everything is pointing at us sticking to 4231 with a more creative player playing as a 10.

 

[charlenefan]

Probably already been covered but this talk of Xhaka getting a new 4 year deal when he was on the verge of going to Roma is a bit odd isn't it? Can't remember exactly when he joined but pretty sure Arsenal have never finished in the top 4 with him as regular starter in midfield.

He can have some good games during a season and had a good euros but c'mon compared to their past he's much poorer than say even a Gilberto Silva player. I'm never scared playing an Arsenal team with Xhaka as midfield lynchpin.

Seems an error to me and probably sums up Arteta a bit, does some good work/good signings in some areas of the pitch but lacks ruthlessness (or perhaps support of the board to prune experienced players from key areas of the pitch).

For most clubs yeah, for Arsenal? Not so much, this is a club that was actively trying to sell Rob Holding last summer only to rely on him as their starting CB

tbf though I think Arteta knows their squad is that shit that no one is not for sale even their 'better' players so if they can't sell them they'll continue to play them

 

[jus2nang]

I swear minus gallas the rest were bought for less than 15m combined. I think most of those were gambles that didn't work out.

One of Wenger's crimes is that he sometimes persisted with players that weren't good enough for too long. That in itself can be more damaging than overpaying for a player.

 

[Patchbeard]

Article on the BBC today that they've accepted a bid for Joe Willock from Newcastle. Think this might be nother sale they live to regret it like the Martinez. Never had a proper run in the Arsenal team, but you can't argue that he must have some good potential after his spell at Newcastle. If he's not in your starting plans at Arsenal yet then surely just give him another year out on loan to keep improving, he's only 21!

As an Arsenal fan I would be fuming if you're letting a promising young player go when you still have the likes of Willian in your squad.