Arsenal only care about the CL. That is the reason they win it so often…
Arsenal 22/23 - go to new thread
- Thread starter horsechoker
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Arteta so far has spent £430mil since he arrived (I hope I added it up right). Ten Hag has spent half of that already in one transfer window with £229 spent over the summer. What immediate impact or progress do you expect to see from Ten Hag? If he only wins the Carabao Cup (without seriously challenging for the title) after spending so much, how would you assess him?
Sure he’s not had the time yet, but he’s definitely been backed financially much more than Arteta was in his first 6 months. Arteta won the FA Cup and finished 8th his first season (but he came mid way through 19/20 season) and spent £103mil in his first proper transfer window. If we adjust the league table in 19/20 for only Arteta’s time, we’d be 6th.
Ten Hag has spent more than double that, will probably finish 3rd and win Carabao Cup, maybe EL. If United with the EL then definitely Ten Hag has made the bigger immediate impact, but he’s also spent double what Arteta did at the same stage.
That’s some mental gymnastics I must say!
Ten Hag has been at United 7-8 months.
I could equally say Arteta has spent double what Ten Hag has spent whilst having a full squad he’s put together himself and worked with for nearly 4 years, yet apparently it’s too much to ask for him to be able to fight for more than one competition and play more than one game per week?!
Not been our league rivals for some time pal it’s been 7 years since you finished inside the top 4Drop down to be your league rivals again?
What about 16/17 when we finished 5th and you finished 6th? Or 18/19 when we finished 5th and you finished 6th again? Or 21/22 when we finished 5th and you finished 6th yet again?
I didnt see that coming, now they have a chanceWhat manager?
Don't think we'll need to debate money and spend anyway when you guys have your oil money rolling in soon.That’s some mental gymnastics I must say!
Ten Hag has been at United 7-8 months.
I could equally say Arteta has spent double what Ten Hag has spent whilst having a full squad he’s put together himself and worked with for nearly 4 years, yet apparently it’s too much to ask for him to be able to fight for more than one competition and play more than one game per week?!
You’ve enjoyed the Emirates sponsorship for quite some time now remember….
We were your clown rival then, not league rivals… (this said we won the EL in 17, and made it to the CL that way)…
Considering our imminent future with new owners I very much doubt so. You'll be back to plodding to with others in race for Top 4 as you have been doing for, let me check... last 7 seasons. Like I said, enjoy your Leicester season. Vast majority of you will disappear when going gets tough anywayDrop down to be your league rivals again?
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Yes, the fact is we only have limited evidence to compare as ETH hasnt been there long. That's why I thought to compare what they've done in their first 6 months. Who knows where ETH/United will be 3 years down the line. You keep saying "nearly 4 years" but it's just over 3 - he came in Dec 2019. But I suppose that's splitting hairs. By the end of his 4th year we'll know if he's won the PL.That’s some mental gymnastics I must say!
Ten Hag has been at United 7-8 months.
I could equally say Arteta has spent double what Ten Hag has spent whilst having a full squad he’s put together himself and worked with for nearly 4 years, yet apparently it’s too much to ask for him to be able to fight for more than one competition and play more than one game per week?!
Now onto your main point about whether Arteta has achieved enough with the squad - I think most Arsenal fans will be delighted with what he's done so far. Perhaps you wouldn't be and that's fair enough. He inherited a pretty poor squad that was 8th when he took over with a couple of problematic stars. He overhauled it and invested in youngish players suited to his style and that has taken 3 years. We've also reformed our wage structure and are handling contracts much better. Hopefully we avoid Auba/Ozil situations in the future.
He's now got his first team (maybe 12-13) but needs stronger squad players. As he's gone with youth, we also lack the experience and mettle right now to challenge on multiple fronts. Maybe you'll see that as a failure, but I think it's reasonable. The board also have faith in him as by all accounts they'll continue to back him. Of course not every signing has worked out like Lokonga and the jury's out on Vieira.
But for me personally, it's the first time in years that I feel we're Arsenal again. I haven't felt this good about our team since the days of prime Ozil and Alexis, and maybe prime Auba for a while. I am ashamed to say I was "Arteta out" not too long ago so he has surprised me with where we are.
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Ten Hag might have spent 1bn in the summer for all I care. The reality is that he inherited a counter-attacking side with rock bottom morale that might have genuinely finished bottom half last year.
The one striker he had decided to get sacked and made sure to leave everything burning.
His captain is a fridge.
And let's not even get into the Greenwood situation.
So, naturally the guy needed time. A lot of time.
6 months later he's sitting with a trophy. Pretty sure that a second one is coming.
Arteta, on the other hand, could have and should have been sacked on numerous occasions. Albeit he got it right in the end, although we'll see if he'll have something to show for it.
But so far their starts are not even comparable in my eyes.
Let me introduce you to the Wout Weghorst 22/23 Performance thread.
I get the rest of your argument but it’s somewhat disingenuous to talk about ‘squad values’ when, from a United perspective, £80million of centre back is not even seen by the current manager as having anywhere close to that value [one example].
Arteta won a trophy 8 months after joining arsenal , had a far worse squad than ETH, that were 5 points above the relegation zone when he took over, and now has completely revamped the team and has us playing great football and challenging for the title, when no one expected us to get top 4. He was never getting sacked, the people that matter at the club knew what a brilliant young manager they had.
He said on Tuesday that we are in phase 3 of a 5 phase rebuild. I imagine the next phase is to improve the squad so we can compete on all fronts.
Everything is going great , we haven’t had it this good in 19 years, and if we win the league it would be with the youngest ever squad to do so, so way ahead of schedule.
I agree, it is very difficult to really compare and looking at transfer costs alone is only a fraction of the story.
I think "who inherited the worse squad" is really a toss up. We were 8th when Arteta came in midway through 19/20 season. We haven't been in CL since 15/16. We had a squad full of ageing players or past their prime, and a couple of problematic stars on high wages (Ozil, Auba like you had with Ronaldo). Apart from a couple of FA Cups we haven't done much else of note and it felt like we were in freefall for a while.
The main difference I think between our clubs is that we now have clarity with our board and have a proper strategy in regards to every aspect of how the club is run. We'd lost our identity a bit after Wenger, whose last days were pretty dark and toxic too. Arteta seems to have refocused and reformed everything. It remains to be seen whether the Glazers/whoever buys you and ETH can come to a similar working relationship.
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it’s also fair to say that one swallow doesn’t make a summer and it remains to be seen if this season is just a one-off for Arsenal (and an off one for City) or genuinely indicates a start of a glowing period for you.
Theres no doubt Arteta has been exceeding expectations. But you have to remember Arsenal's problems were mostly things related to football (mainly that they need players). At United it was beyond football because signing players and teaching them tactics werent enough, its was only a small problem.
There are more problems that are hard to solve like player power (Ronaldo and overpaid lazy players), the club always relying on the manager for everything, having ex players ready to criticize your decisions (this part I dont like, I wish ex United pundits arent so vocal), players constantly being not available that he had to sign Wout and Sabitzer mid season and of course the team had just finished arguably the worst season post Sir Alex with very bad basics (relying on counter attack for too much). My expectation was that he needed one season just to solve some of the problems but he managed to solve almost everything after months being in the job.
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ETH has done an excellent job so far, but I’d argue we had as much off field problems as you. The whole aubameyang incident, the Ozil saga, the absolutely toxic atmosphere at the club, we don’t even pay the wages you do and generally have less money to spend so attracting players was hard. All the shitstorms that the silly fan sites cause like aftv, and obviously there was a time when all media personalities, footballing ones like Neville or clowns like piers Morgan constantly calling for his head. For a young manager in his first ever job, what Arteta has done to come through it all is incredible.
Of course, same can be said of ETH - maybe his ceiling is the Carabao Cup.
All joking aside, considering the youth of our squad, I am hopeful that this is more than just a fluke season. And we can continue to build on it, whether or not we win the title.
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I don't understand why people keep comparing ETH with Arteta.
ETH has been a seasoned manager for some time. If he is a good manager which i feel he is, he surely shouldn't take as much time.
When we hired Arteta, I am not sure even if we wanted we could have gotten a manager like ETH mid season.
And if we are comparing these two then surely ETH has several advantages like this is not his first job, he is/will be backed much better than Arteta. I don't buy the argument that you had a worse squad when ETH joined as just a year back you finished 2nd and added Sancho/Varane which most here would say is a very good talent and would come good / best defender in the league.
In the squad that ETH got there are several worldclass or close to worldclass players like Varane/Bruno and many other players that are going to play a key role in the future for ETH like Shaw/Rashford/DDG(maybe) on top of Varane/Bruno.
Also when people discuss costs why don't they compare salaries aswell as surely we can't get a player like casemiro/Varane even today with their salary demands even if we are willing to pay the transfer fee like what may happen with FDJ next summer.
ETH has been a seasoned manager for some time. If he is a good manager which i feel he is, he surely shouldn't take as much time.
When we hired Arteta, I am not sure even if we wanted we could have gotten a manager like ETH mid season.
And if we are comparing these two then surely ETH has several advantages like this is not his first job, he is/will be backed much better than Arteta. I don't buy the argument that you had a worse squad when ETH joined as just a year back you finished 2nd and added Sancho/Varane which most here would say is a very good talent and would come good / best defender in the league.
In the squad that ETH got there are several worldclass or close to worldclass players like Varane/Bruno and many other players that are going to play a key role in the future for ETH like Shaw/Rashford/DDG(maybe) on top of Varane/Bruno.
Also when people discuss costs why don't they compare salaries aswell as surely we can't get a player like casemiro/Varane even today with their salary demands even if we are willing to pay the transfer fee like what may happen with FDJ next summer.
I would argue Arsenal had all the the problems you mentioned and then some back then
1. Player power issues with Ozil Auba
2. Explayer issue: We literally had explayers team up with the Spotify guy to takeover the club. Just imagine how ridiculous that is.
3. We also had the worst season since Wenger and had no style of play.
4. We had pretty toxic environment at the Emirates
5. We also has issue with the owners back then
6. We had an ageing squad on big contracts many of which we had to pay to leave the club.
7. We had a Director of Football who has been involved in dodgy deals (like Pepe) and kickbacks who was later sacked.
Both Arteta/Edu are young and thus were going to take more time. This was known when they were hired and was told upfront thus many keep saying we are ahead of schedule. If the owners agreed that the plan/timeline was reasonable then anything regarding timelines should be taken up with owners and not them
Edit: Forgot to add that ETH has been doing a wonderful job and the team surely looks on the up. It would seem that you guys would not have to endure as much pain as we did with Arteta before you start seeing good results of which some signs are there already.
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If you strech a little further, I'm sure you'll be able to touch a star or two!
Well playedDrop down to be your league rivals again?
Loving these 2 points in the context of the post.
Arsenal logic is a wonderful thing.
Can't believe I've just seen an Arsenal fan say Arteta is a generational manager and the closest comparison to what he's doing is Mourinho at Porto. Some of them take delusion to another level!
Just wait until they win it
You sure you don't want to engage in a proper discussion and refute my points with those of your own?
An important distinction is Arteta came in midway through the season when we were in dire straits. ETH at least had a proper pre season and spent big money immediately. If I were a United fan I'd be delighted with what ETH has done in a short time. He seems to have rejuvenated and refocused the squad, though I think there's still a lot of deadwood he needs to get rid of, like Arteta had to do. But things are up in the air until your ownership is sorted out. I think he is over ahcieving with the squad. Just like I think Arteta did by winning FA Cup when he arrived, thanks mainly to prime Auba.
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I want City to pip Arsenal to the title, just to watch the beautiful Piers meltdown.
Arteta also had proper pre season in his first full season and yet he finished 8th and was flirting with relegation in December. He is a fortunate manager to not be sacked. What arteta is doing this season is remarkable but one cannot pretend the first 2 and half season did not exist with him. 8th,8th and bottling 4th spot to a spurs side is piss poor.
He’s lucky he had good owners who believed in him, and now we as fans are lucky to have a good team that is challenging for the title, all this luck is down to hard work and sound judgement by those in charge and the players. Anyone who looked beyond the results could see the game plan and patterns, it didn’t need a genius to see that with the right players Arsenal under Arteta would improve, maybe not to this extent yet, but the improvement was coming.
The biggest compliment to Arteta is that he’s gone from being compared to clueless managers like Ole, to world class managers like ETH. His star is rising fast and because many had already dismissed him, they keep shifting the goal posts on how to judge him. Manager of this year without any doubt. 66 points after 27 games is staggering.
Indeed, but there's a bit of a difference in wealth available receiving a sponsorship for a fixed amount and being owned by it.
So we were still rivals in the league, just not for the league, which was my original point.
Perhaps so Kush. Although with being state owned already at City and Newcastle, with Chelsea seemingly being able to print money, it perhaps doesn't quite have the effectiveness it once had.Considering our imminent future with new owners I very much doubt so. You'll be back to plodding to with others in race for Top 4 as you have been doing for, let me check... last 7 seasons. Like I said, enjoy your Leicester season. Vast majority of you will disappear when going gets tough anyway
And i was posting on here when Arsenal were 15th and you guys were 2nd, so why would I disappear now?
I stopped reading here
You’re lot have done nothing but criticise Kroenke for years, first run of decent form & they’re ‘good owners’.
A title collapse couldn’t happen to a more fitting fanbase.
It's arsenal fans who have suddenly started comparing Arteta to ETH/Pep/Klopp and I for one won't take any of them seriously. He is an upcoming manager who looked clueless for 2 and a half years and pretty good in last 8 months.
He has a lot to achieve before he can be compared to ETH let alone Pep or Klopp.
No one is pretending that the first 2 years were good. That's why no one (including Arsenal fans) ever thought we'd be in the position we're in now. To be seriously challenging for the title? It seemed we were still years away from that. I myself was "Arteta out" when we bottled top 4 last season. But the board believed in him and his plan. And what we're seeing now is exactly why. Seems these people may actually know what they're doing. Who would have thought.
First paragraph is a strange comparison. Because not only does a manager need investment, they need time and to build on what they have taken on at the club.
Arteta won the FA Cup with Arsenal but Arsenal had already won that 3 times in 6 years without Arteta, which shows he inherited a capable squad. Its not really over achieving.
When ETH arrived at United they were a mess and hadn't won a trophy for 5 years. So alot more work was needed.
Also transfer inflation has occurred since Arteta took over Arsenal. It also helps that he bought players at good prices from his state backed mates at Manchester City.
If Arteta doesn't win the league this year and falls away next year to finish 4th/5th in the league, will you count him as a success?
Absolutely. Completely valid point. That’s why I personally refrain from the chest-thumping going on.Of course, same can be said of ETH - maybe his ceiling is the Carabao Cup.
This thread is so quiet when Arsenal win. But one draw and it’s a war of arguments. Sad to see so many lovely people waiting for a failure to start making assessments.