ATG Managers Draft - R1 - P-Nut vs Sjor Bepo (C. Wilder vs T. Ivić)

Who would win & which team better suits a chosen manager?


  • Total voters
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Synco

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TEAM P-NUT (Chris Wilder)

Chris Wilder portrait

Chris Wilders journey to the premier league.

Wilder before this season was a manager not known to many, but that was creating something special in the lower leagues of English football.

He started his managerial career at Alfreton Town, he was only there for 27 weeks, but managed to secure 4 trophies during his short stint (the Northern Counties - East League Premier Division, the League Cup, the President's Cup and the Derbyshire Senior Cup)

Next he moved on to Halifax, just after they had been relegated to the conference. He stayed for more than 300 games, until the club went into liquidation.

After a short stint at Bury as assistant manager he took the managers job at Oxford in December. In his first half season he took them to the cusp of the playoffs, narrowly missing out. In his first full season he took Oxford back to the football league via the playoffs and began stabilising them as a football league club finishing 12th, 9th, 12th and 8th, narrowly missing out on the playoffs on 2 occasions despite their tiny budget.

Wilder then moved to Northampton Town strangely, as they were in the relegation zone when he took over. In his first season he managed to avoid the drop, 2nd season cemented them mid table, before winning the league in his 3rd season with 99 points, despite financial troubles meaning players went unpaid during October and November 15.

His time at Northampton earned him his shot at Sheffield were things really took off for him. In his first season the club got off to a poor start, securing 1 point from their opening 4 games, and sitting bottom of the table. This proved to be the turning point though and Sheff Utd would end up running away with the league on 100 points.

In his first season in the championship he guided his team to the top half, finishing 10th, just 6 points shy of the playoffs, before the run at the title the following year, when they gained promotion for the 2nd time in 3 years and began life in the Premier league.

Wilder has managed 3 promotions in the last 4 seasons, and so far this season has Sheffield United sat comfortably in the top half and looking to secure European football for the first time in their history.

But where did his tactics come from?

The brain child of Wilder and his assistant Alan Knill, the overlapping centre backs Sheffield are famed for today came about early in the 18/19 season after a poor start to the campaign.

Struggling with breaking down teams sat behind the ball, the idea was to unleash the centre backs from their defensive duties and allow them to create overlaps out wide with their respective wing backs. This change, whilst still possessing a 3 man midfield meant teams became overwhelmed defensively and allowed Sheffield to control the game.

In game and during attack the formation can be called a 244 with Norwood dropping back to help his central defender, whilst the 2 side defenders push up and take up the positions you'd expect to find a traditional winger in.



Is the sort of shape we usually see them in during attacking phases of the game, which demonstrates the amount of strain they can put on the defensive teams back line.

Inspiration
Sheff Utd 19/20

Formation
3-5-2

Playing style, tactics
Hard working, fluid attacking shape.

Player roles
GK: VDS (06-09) - Excellent shot Stopper, needed a synergy with the back line to organise due to the changing of positions with the fluid attacking tactics.
RWB: Zanetti (04-07) - Wingbacks that are willing to come inside rather than hugging the touchline. Capable with the ball at their feet to play intricate passes.
RCB: S. Ramos (08-11) - The overlapping fullbacks that are key to Wilders side. Ramos has experience in his Sevilla days at RB to enable him to add width in attack.
CB: Campbell (02-05) - A quick mobile centre back that is efficient in the air.
LCB: Passarella (85-88) - One of the most attacking centre backs to play the game. A license to get forward here would be music to his ears.
LWB: Alaba (13-16) - See Zanetti explanation
CDM: Rijkaard (88-91) - The player that runs the game. Ability to drop into centre back when the two wide centre backs get caught high up the pitch. Also needed a great passing range to dictate the game, and there is no one that could perform the role better in the history of the game.
RCM: Modric (15-18) - Keep the game ticking over and add some technical guise in and around the penalty area, when we have controlled possession.
LCM: L.S. Miramontes (62-65) - Same as Modric. Needed creative ability combined with a workrate most creative players don't possess.
CF: Villa (08-11) - Capable of drifting to either side to create those renowned overloads, Villa is the perfect support striker.
ST: Law (64-67) - The main source of goals up top. Mobile and clinical, and not afraid of a bit of hard work. Law slots in seamelessly here.

Alterations from the original
I've tried to stay as true as possible to how Sheff have played this season.

Their wing backs usually take up attacking midfield roles, with the CMs dictating from a bit deeper, or arriving in the box late.

Here the wing backs will drop into the CM spot, allowing Suarez and Modric to push further on and use their creativity closer to the opposition penalty area.


TEAM SJOR (Tomislav Ivić)

Tomislav Ivić Portrait
Why Tomislav Ivic?

Because he is probably the greatest manager you’ve never heard of. Master strategist who is credited with developing the modern style of the game, and with having won eight league titles in six different countries.

At each post that he took on, the scrupulous Croatian instilled his high work ethic and used his boundless football knowledge. His quirks were what made him both iconic and incomparable. He had a strange habit of writing down everything he knew, and could be often seen in the dugout, arms outstretched, with a pen stuck to his hand like a cigar.
Journalists revealed stories on how he would rearrange chairs in their office to explain the Makélélé role. An acquaintance of mine told me how he was once on the same flight as Ivić: within minutes of introducing himself to the coach, he was presented with diagrams drawn on a piece of paper to explain how England should play if they wanted to have a chance of winning Euro 2004. To him, football tactics increasingly became something like a set of problems and equations which could be solved by proper analysis — something that can and needs to be mended. When, due to his deteriorating health, doctors instructed him to retire from coaching, he was always filling up his notebooks with tactical diagrams and new ideas on a daily basis. Even when he was admitted to hospital and banned from watching football on TV, he still drew his diagrams, straight from his head.

The trophy harvest also inspired José Mourinho, one of the three greats who have come closest to matching his feat, winning four — albeit stronger — national competitions (the other two are Ernst Happel and Giovanni Trapattoni). He first met Ivić back in 1988.
“José was a student of sports science and he’d often come to watch my training sessions in Porto,” Ivić revealed in an interview with the Croatian daily newspaper Jutarnji list. Six years later, Ivić’s second term at the club came to an end as he was replaced by Bobby Robson and Mourinho, his interpreter. Another decade later, the two men met at the Stamford Bridge after Chelsea’s 2-1 win over Barcelona in the Champions League. Ivić was there as a pundit for Croatian television and, after the Special One had given him a signed copy of his biography, he showed it to the journalists. The inscription read, in Portuguese, “To the greatest coach of them all — I hope one day to win as much as you.”
He was also often accused of playing defensive football. This probably had something to do with his methodology. “It’s much easier to learn how to defend than how to attack,” he used to say. “It also takes less time.” Once he’d managed to fortify the defence, his teams would grow steadily and become more and more efficient in attack as well. In 1977-78, his Ajax team scored 23 goals more than in the previous season. But for various reasons, including his adventurous nature and in some cases money, he hardly ever stuck around in one place long enough to gain true recognition.

There is also a funny anecdote about him that i know from first hand:
Nearly after he retired he was on vacation in Portugal with his wife, at some point he says he must go to a certain game so wife went with him in the middle of vacation and they went to Amsterdam to see Ajax play a home game against someone. After 5 minutes Ivic says to his wife that they can leave, she was fuming as you would expect because they fecked up a vacation for a game where they only stay 5 minutes but legend said how he came to see one specific action and after he saw it he was ready to go!

Inspiration
Hajduk Split 1980

Formation
4-3-3
While this team was a blueprint as Ivic himself says that was a perfect presentation of his football, i took all the principles of play from it but didnt go toe to toe in terms of replicating same roles/players.

Tactics

High press, high tempo, quick transition
  • High line, offside trap: Dražen Mužinić, a long-serving Hajduk player in the 70s, admitted he became so infected by the habits he had learned that he began “catching people in offside traps” when talking to them in the street. “I couldn’t help it,” he explained. “It was a reflex action for me.” When Mužinić was transferred to Norwich City in 1980, he was so useless that Justin Fashanu remarked, “I don’t think we got Mužinić. I reckon they sent his milkman instead.” Besides not speaking a word of English, the player was immersed in Ivić’s logic and found it too hard to function outside it. When Norwich cancelled his contract, he retired aged 29
  • High press: Although his idea of playing football was all about modernity, Ivić drew great pride from the fact that he was a part of this historical line. Himself a Kaliterna disciple — like pretty much every football coach that emerged from Split up until the 1970s — he often quoted his master’s grains of ancient wisdom, like ‘See everything, look at nothing’ or ‘The play, not the player, scores goals.’ Whenever asked about his biggest influences, he’d always put Kaliterna first, then usually Rinus Michels and Hennes Weisweiler. Ivić said that Michels had chosen him as his successor because the way his Hajduk played suited the ideals of Total Football. That may not be entirely so — while he did use the 4-3-3 formation, interchanging positions and intensive pressing, his football was never quite so easy on the eye or as attacking. In part that was down to a lack of extraordinary individuals but Ivić favoured automatism and a great deal of running, so his teams weren’t as playful as the Ajax that conquered Europe. His was a more physical game.
  • Overlaps: Key feature in his game but interestingly they rarely involved fullbacks, they were mostly done by side central midfielders and wide forwards
  • Offensive patterns: outside of overlaps and quick counter-attacks his dream tactic would be something similar to Rinus Mitchels and he was often stating how the HSV game at Poljud was a perfect game of football - Hajduk flew all over the pitch: they played one-touch football and swapped positions so quickly that it was hard even for the fans to keep track, let alone Hajduk’s opponents. They moved in unison, contracted and expanded, as though all were controlled by some invisible brain or joystick. And they pressed the ball for the full 90 minutes.
    This was avant-garde football but it wasnt to be as the player who had been the most reliable for Ivić let him down, former Arsene Wenger AM Boro Primorac. To summarize, the offensive game was a mixed bag, and when i think about it its almost like Jurgen Klopps BVB and Liverpool sides combined into one as you had a lot of direct, quick transitions through combination play like BVB and very big influence of exploiting the wide channels to create space for a quality cross while keeping sides under constant pressure like his Liverpool side.
Player Roles
GK - Manuel Neuer - Keeper sweeper, most likely best ever in that role and this days its very hard to imagine a top team without it and most if not a lot of this teams have a lot of touching points with Ivic teams
CBs - Alessandro Costacurta and Jaap Stam, not only they both have all the qualities you need from a defender in a high line they also excelled in those systems
FBs - Ashley Cole and Philipp Lahm. Needed two balanced fullbacks that were intelligent in possession and are top defenders.
DM - Uli Stielike - had a lot of freedom here tbh, decided on Uli as i wanted a player that is comfortable anywhere on the pitch, can defend and is also very fluid in possession.
CMs - Thomas Hassler and Wim Van Hanegem. Both proper grafters used to a pressing system, both more then comfortable in wide areas, great footballers and most importantly given the character of both can see both utilizing the overlap function to the fullest.
FWs - Ruud Gullit and Oleg Blokhin, honestly cant find better players/fits for the roles(only Stoichkov would be in their company)
ST - Henrik Larsson - one of the most underrated strikers in drafts, hard working striker with a very good all-around play and even better goal-scoring ability. Given the various sources of potential deliveries(through combination play, high balls/crosses, balls into channels, behind the defence) and his ability with back to goal the decision to have him as my striker was made very early in the draft, not even me getting Preben Elkjaer of who im a fanboy of the highest order didnt made me think about my decision twice.

Alterations from the original
see above (Formation)
 

P-Nut

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Good luck @Šjor Bepo

Im struggling to envisage exactly what you've tried to replicate even knowing that it's an ideal rather than a specific formation/team.

Seems to be a manager with a big mixture of footballing ideas thrown into one, which obviously worked extremely well for him, but is hard to define into a system.
 

harms

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Not sure about the wording, but we can change that.
 

harms

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I think both LCB and RCB are supposed to provide overlapping runs most of the time? Surely in the case of Passarella you’d want him centrally at all times — be it for his thunderous shot or to get to the end of incoming crosses. I would’ve loved to see a more detailed explanation on that, since this is the most unique feature of that tactics.
 

Synco

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@Šjor Bepo's player selection looks spot on for team tactics & individual roles. The video gives a good impression of their game.

For Larsson you mentioned high balls & hold up play as strengths. I mainly remember him as a mobile & technical forward/striker, and he wasn't tall - was he really that good at these things? (Honest question, may well be.)

@P-Nut
Is the CB overlap a constant feature of attacking moves, or just a part-time gimmick to create confusion in the opposition defense?

What does the team do after overloading the wings - crossing, quick passing schemes, ...?

Finally, why did you change the WB role, and are the CMs supposed to help overloading instead?
 

P-Nut

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@harms @Synco

The CBs usually overlap the wing backs, with the wing backs taking the underlapping half space around the edge of the box. Obviously given no history of centre backs performing this role, you're not going to find a player that has done exactly that in their career. It's probably easier to slot in full backs that are defensively sound in that position to be honest, however given Barsham and OConnell were both CBs before this new approach I didn't want to go down that route and instead wanted to match as best as possible using CBs.

Ramos is a seemless fit due to playing both RB and CB to a stupidly high level.

Passarella is a harder fit as never playing full back, however when the ball is on the right side, you can imagine him being around the edge of the box in the sort of position you'd want long range efforts coming from if the ball broke after a cross.

Both of the wider CBs can also attack the back post when the other flank is providing the cross for added ariel threat.

As for what happens after the overload, Synco there is a decent short video at the top of this page.

https://footballdna.co.uk/features/sheffield-united-3-5-2-attacking-overlapping-centre-backs/
 

Šjor Bepo

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Good luck @Šjor Bepo

Im struggling to envisage exactly what you've tried to replicate even knowing that it's an ideal rather than a specific formation/team.

Seems to be a manager with a big mixture of footballing ideas thrown into one, which obviously worked extremely well for him, but is hard to define into a system.
Honestly dont know what to say, thought i explained well and the philosophy is quite clear to see. Which specific part is bothering you?
 

Šjor Bepo

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@Šjor Bepo's player selection looks spot on for team tactics & individual roles. The video gives a good impression of their game.

For Larsson you mentioned high balls & hold up play as strengths. I mainly remember him as a mobile & technical forward/striker, and he wasn't tall - was he really that good at these things? (Honest question, may well be.)
Cheers.
Regarding Larsson, even though for Celtic(for Sweden that segment was more visible, specially when dork didnt play) Sutton was doing most of the hold up play Henke as well was doing his bits pretty well. His hold up play wasnt on a GOAT level but was good to very good id say. Not sure what height has to do with it, if anything short players can hold the ball much easier if the delivery is good - Tevez prime example. Anyways, his back to goal game is just a small part of his arsenal in this system, he is what i call a glue striker that keeps that attack tick, to specify it - take all his goals away and id still pick him.
 

Synco

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Not sure what height has to do with it, if anything short players can hold the ball much easier if the delivery is good - Tevez prime example.
It's not necessary, but for guys like Benzema and Lewandowski, their body mass helps shielding the ball against strong defenders. Doesn't mean a shorter guy can't be good at it, but he has to have (among other things) the physicality, imo. That's why I asked.

The "glue striker" description fits with my memories of him, and your forward line is meant to be fluid (pretty obvious with Blokhin/Larsson/Gullit), so it sounds convincing.
 

Šjor Bepo

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I love Wilder system(used it myself previously) and watched a fair bit of them this season and must say the squad and tactical innovations from @P-Nut dont really make sense, at least not to me.
Here the wing backs will drop into the CM spot, allowing Suarez and Modric to push further on and use their creativity closer to the opposition penalty area.
The whole point of overlapping centerbacks and putting overloads on wide zones is lost.

Have similar issues as others:
Those wide centerbacks should be fullbacks, best side centerbacks are fullbacks anyways and here where you need them to overlap as well it makes no sense to not go there.
Regarding Passarella, i just dont see it. At first glance on paper he fits but he was a dominant player that was dictating when will he go up and how and mostly it was through his possession and playing one twos through the middle, expecting him to do overlaps to create space for others? Dont see it.
Ramos i can probably see doing it, though dont rate him as a centerback, even less so as a fullback so by all means, play son.

I was looking at Suarez as well and the reason i passed on him because i wasnt sure he would be comfortable/willing to do the work in wide areas, most of the job of that midfield is to press and protect which isnt really his game even though his workrate for a playmaker was great.
Rijkaard in a playmaking role? I know we all see him as superman of drafts but nah, not for me.
Modric fits like a glove though.

Attack you changed a bit but i have no issues, its not a crucial tactical part of the team and the only thing you would ask for them is to work hard and be good defensive wise which both are, specially love Villa inclusion up front! Those type of changes i reckon are welcomed, the ones that completely change/harm the system are not i guess :D
 

Šjor Bepo

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feck it, lets do this part as well:

Regarding the game:
Overloads on sides are well covered - two hardworking wide forwards, two grafters in the middle and 2 GOAT defenders at fullback positions that wont be involved much in the offensive phase.
In the middle of defence we have 2 pretty quick defenders that are also great in the air(specially Stam) so well equipped for all sorts of delieveries, specially from the wings where most should come regarding the opposition tactics.

On the other side, Campbell should be the weak link on the high press and Ramos will very good at that specific segment always has a brainfart in him. That whole left side of defence could face a proper massacre, Alaba sadly dropped his game significantly after year and a half of spectacular football and is clearly the weakest player on the pitch and the sheer physical difference between Gullit and Passarella is just something else, can see Gullit going through him if nothing else works not to mention back post headers after deliveries from Van Hanegem and Blokhin.
 

Synco

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Alaba sadly dropped his game significantly after year and a half of spectacular football and is clearly the weakest player on the pitch
I remember Alaba's highest peak being right in the middle of the Guardiola period (14/15), when he was fantastic as some kind of left-sided libero for a spell. That's when some people (including me) thought he's developing into a proper star defender. I think the drop off came a bit later. My memory is always a bit dodgy, but Kicker rankings and ESM team inclusions support that.

2012-15 may have been a safer career peak choice (not entirely sure), but I think Alaba is a good fit for this LWB role. Gullit is always an argument, though.
 

Šjor Bepo

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I remember Alaba's highest peak being right in the middle of the Guardiola period (14/15), when he was fantastic as some kind of left-sided libero for a spell. That's when some people (including me) thought he's developing into a proper star defender. I think the drop off came a bit later. My memory is always a bit dodgy, but Kicker rankings and ESM team inclusions support that.

2012-15 may have been a safer career peak choice (not entirely sure), but I think Alaba is a good fit for this LWB role. Gullit is always an argument, though.
After heynckes left i only watched them in big games and there the drop was obvious, most german followers here(and there is a lot of them!) were saying the same so just assumed his best days were long gone. Would be good if he somehow recovered(Muller did it so there is hope) as i like/d him.
 

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After heynckes left i only watched them in big games and there the drop was obvious, most german followers here(and there is a lot of them!) were saying the same so just assumed his best days were long gone. Would be good if he somehow recovered(Muller did it so there is hope) as i like/d him.
I think 14/15 was good overall. It may be 12/13 instead of 15/16 to improve the 3 year peak. But as I said, my memory is not too reliable, so I'm not going to argue over it much.
 

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The wing backs have been asked to sit a bit deeper, due to the quality of the CMs in the squad.

If Sheff Utd had access to the same type of talent I'd imagine they'd make the same adjustments.

It's not that the WBs are still overloading the wings, but with sustained possession they'll allow the CMs to dictate the play more than themselves, whilst taking up a covering position to retain possession from cleared balls and circulate the ball if needed.

The centre backs being full backs is simply not true from Sheff Utd's own team. It's fair enough to think they'd be better suited if they were full backs, but in recreating the team I wanted to stay true to it being actual centre backs doing the overlapping rather than having full backs in the position.

Suarez should be fully comfortable here. He works hard and can be creative around the edge of the area where needed.

Rijkaard not being able to replicate Norwoods role is the most confusing though. Sitting as the deepest midfielder, spreading play and dropping into CB when the team is pushed up the field is perfect for him. Sure others would distribute the ball better, but no one can combine that with the ability to drop into defense as well as him.
 

Šjor Bepo

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Quick response before Messi magic.
The wing backs have been asked to sit a bit deeper, due to the quality of the CMs in the squad.

If Sheff Utd had access to the same type of talent I'd imagine they'd make the same adjustments.
If sheffield had access to the same type of talent in midfield they wouldnt play this tactic just like Liverpool wouldnt play theirs. Lets take Pool for example as everyone is more familiar with them, Pogba has more talent in his pinky toe then all Liverpool midfield combined yet he wouldnt get into their team or he probably would based on star power but the team wouldnt be as good(just like how they improved massively after Coutinho left).

It's not that the WBs are still overloading the wings, but with sustained possession they'll allow the CMs to dictate the play more than themselves, whilst taking up a covering position to retain possession from cleared balls and circulate the ball if needed.
Nothing wrong with the tactic but thats nothing like Sheffield, you are completely changing the system because you have a better midfield to the point where overlapping centerbacks are completely irrelevant. Whats the point of them overlapping if your wingbacks will stay as protection, it doesnt make any sense.

The centre backs being full backs is simply not true from Sheff Utd's own team. It's fair enough to think they'd be better suited if they were full backs, but in recreating the team I wanted to stay true to it being actual centre backs doing the overlapping rather than having full backs in the position.
True but thats also because they have a limited budget, they ask very specific things from those 2 players so it makes sense to stay with the players that mastered the role + Basham isnt a CB, he was a defensive midfielder but the other guy is you are correct on that one.


Rijkaard not being able to replicate Norwoods role is the most confusing though. Sitting as the deepest midfielder, spreading play and dropping into CB when the team is pushed up the field is perfect for him. Sure others would distribute the ball better, but no one can combine that with the ability to drop into defense as well as him.
Norwood never ever acts like a CB, he is there to spread the ball and act like a main playmaker of the team, spreading diagonals right, left and center. Defensive wise Rijkaard is obviously great but offensive wise there is absolutely no chance he can do what you ask from him.
 

Physiocrat

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Norwood never ever acts like a CB, he is there to spread the ball and act like a main playmaker of the team, spreading diagonals right, left and center. Defensive wise Rijkaard is obviously great but offensive wise there is absolutely no chance he can do what you ask from him.
Surely Rikjaard is a better passer than Norwood?

Also how do you think Klopp would play if he had more talented players? It seems to me it would be the same system except with more passing ability from the CMs.
 

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Norwood never ever acts like a CB, he is there to spread the ball and act like a main playmaker of the team, spreading diagonals right, left and center. Defensive wise Rijkaard is obviously great but offensive wise there is absolutely no chance he can do what you ask from him.
Hm, agree with Physio here. My impression is that Rijkaard had proper libero skills, including passing range. Again have to say that it looks like a good fit to me, same for Ramos.

The caveats about Passarella I can understand, and I'm not sure about the altered WB role either.
 

Šjor Bepo

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Surely Rikjaard is a better passer than Norwood?

Also how do you think Klopp would play if he had more talented players? It seems to me it would be the same system except with more passing ability from the CMs.
Passing is all he has(similar to Tom Huddlestone) and if not for that quality he would be lucky to play in lower leagues. Just because you are a great player doesnt mean you are better in every segment then certain average players.

Depending on the personnel, for some(truly elite ones) you change the system and some you feck off(Coutinho) or put on the bench(Lallana, Keita).
Their system of two insanely attacking wingbacks works because they have 3 man in midfield that are doing all the running and covering. Replace Henderson/Wijnaldum with better players, lets say Pogba and Bruno and all of the sudden the system doesnt work because those two wont sacrifice their game for Trent and Robertson, maybe those two would for them but then you have a completely different system and those guys that were racking record numbers from fullback position would go back to normal.
You can see Klopps BVB and Pool teams, they are nothing alike apart from the pressing segment.
 

Šjor Bepo

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Hm, agree with Physio here. My impression is that Rijkaard had proper libero skills, including passing range. Again have to say that it looks like a good fit to me, same for Ramos.

The caveats about Passarella I can understand, and I'm not sure about the altered WB role either.
He is a good passer but he needs a Scholes/Pirlo level one(or at least close to that) to replicate the original on the all-time level not a lesser passer/playmaker then Sheffields United.
 

Šjor Bepo

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Mind you, he can do it with Rijkaard as well but in an ideal world id want a better passer. Its not a deal breaker like fullbacks, Passarella and Suarez with the most emphasis on fullbacks tactic as that breaks the whole system.
 

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Depending on the personnel, for some(truly elite ones) you change the system and some you feck off(Coutinho) or put on the bench(Lallana, Keita).
Their system of two insanely attacking wingbacks works because they have 3 man in midfield that are doing all the running and covering. Replace Henderson/Wijnaldum with better players, lets say Pogba and Bruno and all of the sudden the system doesnt work because those two wont sacrifice their game for Trent and Robertson, maybe those two would for them but then you have a completely different system and those guys that were racking record numbers from fullback position would go back to normal.
I thought that was the line you were going down. All I was thinking was that you could have a midfield three of similar style players who are just a lot better eg. Tigana, Keane and Rijkaard and the team would function the same as the current Pool side.
 

Šjor Bepo

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I thought that was the line you were going down. All I was thinking was that you could have a midfield three of similar style players who are just a lot better eg. Tigana, Keane and Rijkaard and the team would function the same as the current Pool side.
Thats correct, if the style/character is on point there is no reason why it wont work even with best of the best, problem is when you change player profiles and characters of players.
Here you have the main player, superstar of his teams, playmaker in Luis Suarez playing in position where you pretty much need a watercarrier and someone that will sacrifice his own game for the benefit of the team.
 

Physiocrat

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Thats correct, if the style/character is on point there is no reason why it wont work even with best of the best, problem is when you change player profiles and characters of players.
Here you have the main player, superstar of his teams, playmaker in Luis Suarez playing in position where you pretty much need a watercarrier and someone that will sacrifice his own game for the benefit of the team.
True, although the question is, is it reasonable to adapt the tactics to accommodate Suarez and still be in the spirit of Wilder's tactics? In the Klopp comparison having one of the full-backs being more balanced to have say Suarez I don't think stops it being a Klopp side as it is still working with his overall style.
 

Himannv

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This is one of the few times I feel that Sergio Ramos might not actually be a disaster. Nice role for him and it's a creative choice.

I just love the idea of Law + Villa by the way. It's a fascinating combination and I think they'll be a handful for any defense.

On the other hand, I like seeing Larsson featuring in these drafts. Long may it continue.
 

Šjor Bepo

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True, although the question is, is it reasonable to adapt the tactics to accommodate Suarez and still be in the spirit of Wilder's tactics? In the Klopp comparison having one of the full-backs being more balanced to have say Suarez I don't think stops it being a Klopp side as it is still working with his overall style.
Id buy it if its Suarez + workhorse(i mean i had Iniesta), but it has to be at least one proper watercarrier in that midfield.

In Wilders side its even more important to have those covers/destroyers in midfield as one of the main features is to invite CBs up to create overloads, you need defensive heads to cover for that.
 

harms

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Went with Sjor. P-Nut's team is probably going to win it, but there are too many questions on comparability of this team with Wilder's tactics, and this has to be a crucial point for this draft. It's one of the toughest systems to emulate to be fair.
 

Physiocrat

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Id buy it if its Suarez + workhorse(i mean i had Iniesta), but it has to be at least one proper watercarrier in that midfield.

In Wilders side its even more important to have those covers/destroyers in midfield as one of the main features is to invite CBs up to create overloads, you need defensive heads to cover for that.
That seems fair.
 

Gio

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Thats correct, if the style/character is on point there is no reason why it wont work even with best of the best, problem is when you change player profiles and characters of players.
Here you have the main player, superstar of his teams, playmaker in Luis Suarez playing in position where you pretty much need a watercarrier and someone that will sacrifice his own game for the benefit of the team.
John Fleck has decent work rate, but his strengths are in his creativity and forward passing, not dissimilar to Suarez.
 

Šjor Bepo

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John Fleck has decent work rate, but his strengths are in his creativity and forward passing, not dissimilar to Suarez.
Id say its more then decent but check my last post :)
 

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sign up, they said. it's a fun draft, they said.
Have voted for Sjor in the end, mostly because of flawless teambuilding upon his tactical idea. When I look at the tactical descriptions & video, I think his players would do great under these instructions. A well drilled pressing/transition team can trouble anyone, let alone one with that amount of individual talent.

In many areas P-Nut's team looks very good too, and I don't agree with Sjor's criticism of some players. But there are a few too many question marks for me to call it a draw.

Mainly thinking of the WB/CM strategy, which doesn't strike me as ideal, since Modric & Suarez are at their best when starting out a bit deeper. Not really seeing the benefit in sacrificing wide presence to let the CMs push up further. Some doubts about Passarella in that role as well.