Auction Draft Chaos 2021 FINAL- Synco vs Gio

[2mufc0]

Synco

vs

Gio

SYNCO TACTICS

Basic tactics / tl;dr

• High possession / high pressing / high line, with an elite level interceptor squad (including Neuer) securing the back against long balls and counters.
• Total football with Messi in the center - the front three + De Bruyne will be highly fluid, as will be the team in general. Blokhin and Villa can play both flanks & through the middle, and finish with both feet.
• Collective attacking, collective defending, intense workrate and compactness
• Keeping the ball away from Gio's front three as much as possible through possession and aggressive (counter-)pressing. Rijkaard to take on Zidane to limit his influence. Lahm and Zebec as defensively strong and hyper-intelligent cover for Gio's wingbacks, with Zebec in the classic Abidal role to reinforce the protection at the back.

Motto of the day: If you score one, we can score two.

---------------------------------------------------------

7 tactical key points

1. Control through possession and pressing -- counter protection

Spoiler

As stated further up.

I can't out-GOAT Gio's team, but the possession/pressing setup allows for certain advantages, while ideally curbing some of his. Playing through that pressing won't be easy, and I'm not too scared of long balls either (see 6.)

• The first aim is to dominate possession, as is natural for this team. When Pele & Müller don't have the ball, they can't score. And my offense can always threaten Gio's goal when on the ball.
• The second aim is to win back the ball asap after losing it. Gio's back seven is good to great technically, but they aren't unpressable either. The same probably goes for Preud'homme.
• The third aim is to push back Gio's team enough to mitigate the immediate counter threat (see 5. and 6.)

If it works to shape the match along these lines, I have a chance to win it.

2. Zebec in the Abidal role -- asymmetric back four

Spoiler

To address Gio's counter threat, Zebec will take up the role Guardiola famously implemented for Eric Abidal. Zebec will switch between a left-sided defensive sweeper and attacking left back, joining attacks later than Lahm, who in turn has freedom to attack the right side.

This role was practically designed for Zebec, who has everything to play it - tactical intelligence en masse, enormous pace, and the combined skillsets of a world class winger & central defender.

Targeted effects:

• cushioning Cafu's impact, who can't just run behind the defense on the break. In 1:1 duels, Zebec matches his pace.
• giving the backline control over the horizontal space through a situational quasi-back-three. This will also help to defend Facchetti.
• allowing Blokhin and De Bruyne freedom to either play wide or cut inside, as Zebec can balance out their movement

3. Rijkaard defending Zidane

Spoiler

Self-explanatory. The less the Frenchman can express himself, the better.

Rijkaard can also force Zidane to defend deeper than he likes with the odd well-timed box-to-box run. Modric and Zebec can react and ensure sufficient cover behind the action.

4. Modric RCM - De Bruyne roaming LCM

Spoiler

Modric plays in the trademark right-sided playmaking role that, among other things, won him a Ballon d'Or. De Bruyne starts out half-left, but interprets his position freely as a roaming attacking midfielder.

Modric as the slightly more reserved #8 is also vital for providing balance on the right, allowing Lahm freedom to attack (who can situationally return the favour). De Bruyne is balanced out by Zebec, who can provide cover or attack the left flank.

There's ample precendent of KDB playing like this - primarily coming from the left, but also appearing all over the opposition half. Just what is needed in this free-floating setup full of movement and interchanges.

5. Occupying & defending Cafu, Facchetti, Breitner

Spoiler

The first measure to control Gio's wingbacks is to force them to defend deep. In possession, my wide attackers or fullbacks (or situationally even a CM) will ensure wide presence in high areas to make them play close to their goalline. Of course they can work a whole flank on their own - but since there is no natural offensive width in front of them, this will help to contain Gio's offensive transition.

Breitner and Zito should have their hands full defending Messi, De Bruyne & Modric marauding through their zone. Rijkaard may push up too at times. If possession is lost, they'll be pressed immediately to prevent a targeted outball and force a backpass, or even a turnover.

6. Defending Müller and Pelé

Spoiler

There will be moments when you can only pray, no doubt. But the aim is to reduce these moments to a survivable quantity.

The first defensive measure is to let them have the ball as little as possible and smother counters early (see 1.), and to mitigate the immediate wide threat in transition (see 5. and 2.)

If it works to pin down Gio's team deep, his attackers should have a long distance to cover towards my goal. Gio's front three is quick and mobile, but not particularly rapid over long distances. His main pace is on the wings. Between the pace of my central defense + Rijkaard, and the vast spacial control of Neuer, there's little room for direct counters through the center. My defensive players should also be able to control any high balls.

The aim is to create this tactical situation as often as possible.

If Gio's team still manages to play through my pressing and establish prolongued possession, a tight defensive bloc is formed to limit space, time, and options. Blokhin's and Villa's workrate helps a lot there. The ball should be won back asap to start at 1. again. But this is the constellation in which Gio's attackers are the most dangerous, so avoiding it by dominating possession is the absolute priority.

7. The Manuel Neuer factor

Spoiler

A potentially match-deciding player - all the more so in a possession team.

• his libero qualities on the ball are instrumental for establishing the dominance I need
• he will secure the high line with his control of large spaces & dramatically reduce the counter threat through his sweeping & 1:1 strength
• all-time great shot-stopper as the last resort against Pele and Müller

Spoiler

Spoiler

GIO TACTICS

• Recognising the quality of the Blokhin/Messi axis, our reinforcements in Facchetti and Forster have focused on adding another layer of steel in this area of park.

• The team is packed with specialists in key positions that make a 3-5-2 work. Marshalling the defence we have a top libero in Sammer in his Ballon D'Or winning role (one of only three defenders to ever win this award), flanked by two physical man-markers well versed in a back 3 system. Bergomi and Forster are just about as effective as it gets as side CBs in a 3-man unit and are custom-designed for the task of keeping the opposition forwards in check. Out wide are the all-round flank dominators in Cafu and Facchetti. Both have pace and technical quality in spades, balancing the team with a constant threat in wide-areas. Each of the back three and the wing-backs are in the same systems where they played their best football.

• In midfield double World Cup winner Zito provides quality, stability and control. Replicating his dynamic box-to-box role (runner-up in the Ballon d'Or, 1-in-2 goal record for Bayern), Breitner will be given freedom to break forward to exploit his goal scoring strengths. The prodigious talent of Zidane rounds off a balanced midfield unit brimming with physicality, goal-threat and creativity.

• Up top Pele and Muller combine for a mouth-watering attack. Pele is dropped into his peak early-1960s Santos role as a second striker in the inside-left channel. Benefiting from Pele's creativity is Europe’s greatest goal-scorer of all in Gerd Muller. His movement off the ball is arguably the best of all time and is fed from a range of angles - Sammer bouncing one-twos in Beckenbauer-esque style, Breitner's range from midfield, the premier wide service bending in from Cafu and Facchetti and Zidane's precision in the hole.

 

[2mufc0]

Good luck @Synco @Gio

 

[Jim Beam]

Worthy of the final. Will take my time and put some thoughts.

 

[Jim Beam]

Playing false 9 is the worst for 3 man defence. It will drag your sweeper out and all over the place disturbing the shape. Sammer can't be dedicated here any time in defence. And am not sure you want him go too deep acting as Beckenbauer. The worst thing about going against Messi and heavy possession side is a quick turnover. Modric is also made for this tactic so kudos.


On the other side, counter can kill the other team at any time. And against such high profile attack I have my doubts about Voronin (you can have him as a wild card in round 1, but you don't want him in a high defensive line, not man marking, but being dedicated to a defensive role).

Don't also agree with pinning G/T wingbacks back to less their attacking influence. Let them go at you, the whole principle of high possession in which Messi functioned is to make 1 on 1 in the attacking area for the front three. Just invite them forward as good as they are.

Then again if Gio/Theon GOAT team wants to attack and go blow for blow am all ears.

 

[Gio]

Nice to see some tactical discussion here. Happy to debate:

Control through possession and pressing -- counter protection

While recognising there are excellent ball-retaining qualities in the opposition, I think it's unlikely that a central midfield trio of Breitner, Zidane and Zito, supported by other top-end technicians like Cafu, Facchetti and Sammer, with smooth one-two merchants like Pele and Muller will not command their fair share of the ball. That's quite a fundamental point because Pep's teams have always been vulnerable when they have been unable to fully dominate the ball. And the less a high line team has the ball, the more vulnerable it is in transitions.

Zebec in the Abidal role

Looks fine with me. As much as I personally rate him, at times though he will be up against genuine GOATs like Cafu, Breitner, Zidane and Muller in his area - so these will be fairly big and repeated challenges for him to face.

Occupying Cafu, Facchetti, Breitner

Easier said than done. The theory behind leaving players high to occupy full-backs or wing-backs only really works if firstly you are gambling that will be more effective than letting full-backs go and join the play. That's something more likely with run-of-the-mil wing-backs, or even defence-first full-backs. It's exceedingly less likely with the two best in the business at going forwards and dictating matters in Facchetti and Cafu. The last thing you want is either of those two bearing down on you. And secondly it relies on a disorganised defence incapable of adjusting their shape to accommodate a high wide player. I would suggest that with the players in our 352 - and their World Cup level experience of executing the shape - we should be able to intelligently manage these situations without too much trouble. To give a recent example, Chelsea were able to get Chilwell forward several times on Saturday - so much so he even got caught offside a couple of times and had a key hand in the goal - and that was despite playing against a high-pressing, high-line Pep 4-3-3.



The beauty of the 3-5-2 here is that players can be slid along provided they are well organised and strong in different positions. For example, behind Cafu, is Bergomi who can slide seamlessly between CB and RB. Inside Cafu is Breitner who was elite at full-back and at CM, and for West Germany '72 would pop in several of these positions during the course of any game. Similar dynamic with Sammer, with his midfield experience to call upon. On the left, Facchetti can push high, Forster is a safe pair of hands behind him, but equally Facchetti can drop in tight, into a deep central role if needed, calling upon his later Italian sweeper experience.

 

[Synco]

Playing false 9 is the worst for 3 man defence. It will drag your sweeper out and all over the place disturbing the shape. Sammer can't be dedicated here any time in defence. And am not sure you want him go too deep acting as Beckenbauer. The worst thing about going against Messi and heavy possession side is a quick turnover. Modric is also made for this tactic so kudos.

Cheers. It's the way to win it, if there's one.

On the other side, counter can kill the other team at any time. And against such high profile attack I have my doubts about Voronin (you can have him as a wild card in round 1, but you don't want him in a high defensive line, not man marking, but being dedicated to a defensive role).

What would you say is the fundamental difference between him and, say, Mascherano or Javi Martinez? (Quality aside, where I rate Voronin a good deal higher in many ways.)

There's of course the man-marker argument. But I'd argue there are modern defenders today who could have easily played as either a stopper or a libero 50 years back. Just as there are historic defensive players who'd easily make the transition into a zonal marking system. As far as I've checked him out, I'd definitely have Voronin as such a player (full argument over here in the last round).

Probably not so much in a Simeone-style team, where he'd be a DM, but in a possession team? I'd say it's exactly that kind of intelligent and technical DM Pep loves to play at CB. And his extraordinary athletic abilities are something he has over both real life examples above.

Don't also agree with pinning G/T wingbacks back to less their attacking influence. Let them go at you, the whole principle of high possession in which Messi functioned is to make 1 on 1 in the attacking area for the front three. Just invite them forward as good as they are.

Not sure that's a good idea. Gio's system has no natural wide players, and having them deep in transition can buy enough time to react and regroup, instead of facing a direct outball to the flanks (which is a dangerous way of having pressing overplayed).

On the other hand, catching them out would give a transition option (Blokhin!) that might come in handy, that's true.

Then again if Gio/Theon GOAT team wants to attack and go blow for blow am all ears.

Seems to be the case on first sight, but I have to give it a thorough read.

 

[Jim Beam]

What would you say is the fundamental difference between him and, say, Mascherano or Javi Martinez? (Quality aside, where I rate Voronin a good deal higher in many ways.)

There's of course the man-marker argument. But I'd argue there are modern defenders today who could have easily played as either a stopper or a libero 50 years back. Just as there are historic defensive players who'd easily make the transition into a zonal marking system. As far as I've checked him out, I'd definitely have Voronin as such a player (full argument over here in the last round).

Probably not so much in a Simeone-style team, where he'd be a DM, but in a possession team? I'd say it's exactly that kind of intelligent and technical DM Pep loves to play at CB. And his extraordinary athletic abilities are something he has over both real life examples above.

Probably none. Would have them as weaknesses against such an attack also.

Tbh, I do buy him in this role as I said in the 1st round. Much more then as LCB which was in the previous round.

Not sure that's a good idea. Gio's system has no natural wide players, and having them deep in transition can buy enough time to react and regroup, instead of facing a direct outball to the flanks (which is a dangerous way of having pressing overplayed).

Maybe I read too much in Chelsea SF shutting of Barca team at their peak. Both fullbacks were extremely defensive and Chelsea just went through them on multiple occasions not allowing the space for front three.


https://www.uefa.com/uefachampionsleague/match/302812--chelsea-vs-barcelona/lineups/?iv=true

Sseems to be the case on first sight, but I have to give it a thorough read.

Yeah, seems interesting.

 

[Gio]

Defending Muller and Pele with a high line

Brave, but potentially suicidal. Nothing against high lines per se, but the head-to-head match-ups aren’t favourable here for it to succeed.

Gio's front three is quick and mobile, but not particularly rapid over long distances.

Pele was a supreme athlete and extremely fast over long distances. His reputed 100m times would leave most footballers a long way behind. I don’t think Lahm, Voronin or Ferdinand - none of whom were that slow - can live with him in a race. He’s one of the last players I’d leave with space to attack from the halfway line.


This video looks at his athletic talents with testimony with a long line of legends. There’s countless examples of him surging past defenders like he’s from another planet. And there’s that genius decision-making when fronted with the keeper that makes me inclined to say I’d back him to win any battle of wits with Neuer. I think the guy, with his close control, power and pace, would be devastating against a high line.

 

[Synco]

While recognising there are excellent ball-retaining qualities in the opposition, I think it's unlikely that a central midfield trio of Breitner, Zidane and Zito, supported by other top-end technicians like Cafu, Facchetti and Sammer, with smooth one-two merchants like Pele and Muller will not command their fair share of the ball. That's quite a fundamental point because Pep's teams have always been vulnerable when they have been unable to fully dominate the ball. And the less a high line team has the ball, the more vulnerable it is in transitions.

One key difference is that many of Pep's back defensive players were pretty much specialists in possession play, and thus relied quite heavily on it - thinking of Busquets, Alves, Pique, Mascherano, Yaya, also Alba post-Pep. Puyol and Abidal being among the few exceptions. So in general, they lived and died on possession not only in a tactical sense, but also as player types.

I've deliberately drafted against that trend - in my defense you have Rijkaard, Rio, Voronin, Zebec, Lahm. While they have all the tools to play a possession game on the highest level, there's also a vast amount of traditional defensive ability usually absent from such teams. Pace, physical presence, athleticism, 1:1 skill, heading prowess - Lahm the only one with less athleticism and subpar aerial ability, which didn't stop him from being a world class defender.

So this backline combines the best of both worlds. Neuer is the goalkeeper version of that philosophy - the greatest libero keeper ever, but he'd have been an all-time great on his traditional keeping ability alone.

There's still a tactical, structural point to your argument, but I'd say it's clearly mitigated by the defensive abilities inside that backline.

Looks fine with me. As much as I personally rate him, at times though he will be up against genuine GOATs like Cafu, Breitner, Zidane and Muller in his area - so these will be fairly big and repeated challenges for him to face.

That's not in doubt. He's a fullback first & foremost though, and I'd expect him to mainly deal with Cafu. If you try overloading that flank with central players, there'll naturally be additional support.

As I've written in the OP, Zebec has all the necessary tools to defend Cafu: extraordinary tactical intelligence, extraordinary pace, agility, and a career as both a world class winger and a world class central defender. Cafu is Cafu, you can't shut fully him down over a whole game - but in my eyes there's little more you can ask for in someone taking care of him.

Easier said than done. The theory behind leaving players high to occupy full-backs or wing-backs only really works if firstly you are gambling that will be more effective than letting full-backs go and join the play. That's something more likely with run-of-the-mil wing-backs, or even defence-first full-backs. It's exceedingly less likely with the two best in the business at going forwards and dictating matters in Facchetti and Cafu. The last thing you want is either of those two bearing down on you. And secondly it relies on a disorganised defence incapable of adjusting their shape to accommodate a high wide player. I would suggest that with the players in our 352 - and their World Cup level experience of executing the shape - we should be able to intelligently manage these situations without too much trouble. To give a recent example, Chelsea were able to get Chilwell forward several times on Saturday - so much so he even got caught offside a couple of times and had a key hand in the goal - and that was despite playing against a high-pressing, high-line Pep 4-3-3.

Not sure we talk about the same thing - I was talking about my own possession phase (stretching your defensive formation), not about defensive transition when you have the ball (like gambling by leaving wide players behind the action). When you have the ball, Blokhin and Villa will fully contribute to defending and will get behind the ball as the situation requires.

Otherwise, the plan is not to pin Cafu & Facchetti down all the time (impossible anyway) - just to force them to defend deep as often as possible. In today's Chelsea, you'll regularly see James and Chilwell creating a proper back five - that's what I mean. Them also playing high in other situations doesn't negate that. My team won't stubbornly rely on any such expectation of course, but adjust to whatever your fullbacks do.

But if you don't want to retract your wingbacks to these positions during my phases of high possession, it's your choice. I'd say in that case you'll get punished, as moving CBs out softens up the center for Messi & co, and not moving CBs out leaves a glaring gap for Blokhin and Villa to get behind your backline.

*** all of this said on the assumption we're talking about the same things, which I'm not fully sure of ***

The beauty of the 3-5-2 here is that players can be slid along provided they are well organised and strong in different positions. For example, behind Cafu, is Bergomi who can slide seamlessly between CB and RB. Inside Cafu is Breitner who was elite at full-back and at CM, and for West Germany '72 would pop in several of these positions during the course of any game. Similar dynamic with Sammer, with his midfield experience to call upon. On the left, Facchetti can push high, Forster is a safe pair of hands behind him, but equally Facchetti can drop in tight, into a deep central role if needed, calling upon his later Italian sweeper experience.

Agree, it's very well designed. No contradiction there.

 

[Gio]

Not sure we talk about the same thing - I was talking about my own possession phase (stretching your defensive formation), not about defensive transition when you have the ball (like gambling by leaving wide players behind the action). When you have the ball, Blokhin and Villa will fully contribute to defending and will get behind the ball as the situation requires.

Otherwise, the plan is not to pin Cafu & Facchetti down all the time (impossible anyway) - just to force them to defend deep as often as possible. In today's Chelsea, you'll regularly see James and Chilwell creating a proper back five - that's what I mean. Them also playing high in other situations doesn't negate that. My team won't stubbornly rely on any such expectation of course, but adjust to whatever your fullbacks do.

But if you don't want to retract your wingbacks to these positions during my phases of high possession, it's your choice. I'd say in that case you'll get punished, as moving CBs out softens up the center for Messi & co, and not moving CBs out leaves a glaring gap for Blokhin and Villa to get behind your backline.

*** all of this said on the assumption we're talking about the same things, which I'm not fully sure of ***

Equally I wouldn't expect my wing-backs to play high up the park or on the wrong side of the ball when you have possession. Ultimately these guys are wing-backs first and foremost and are known for their two-way contribution, so it makes sense to have them get up and down accordingly.

To be honest I think your 4-3-3 and my 3-5-2 are both true to the principles that usually underpin them. Both teams have nice fits across the board and I buy the theoretical role for Zebec (because he didn't play there in his career but has the attributes to do so) and Voronin (in certain circumstances). Perhaps less convinced on David Villa on the right wing, given all his experience was as a centre-forward or a second striker from the left. That may be enough of an inexperienced fit to give Facchetti more of an opening compared to had he been tracked by an actual right-sided midfielder or equivalent.

 

[Synco]

Pele was a supreme athlete and extremely fast over long distances. His reputed 100m times would leave most footballers a long way behind. I don’t think Lahm, Voronin or Ferdinand - none of whom were that slow - can live with him in a race

As for Voronin, here's him matching a certain Eusebio in a sprint over ~65m:


And here, from the same game, in another situation that closely resembles a last man turn-and-sprint:


But yes, I take back the point on Pele. My impression was of a very fast & agile player with the ball rather than someone who simply outruns defenders over a long distance - maybe I've just seen the wrong games. Happy to be corrected there, so all's good.

 

[Synco]

Equally I wouldn't expect my wing-backs to play high up the park or on the wrong side of the ball when you have possession. Ultimately these guys are wing-backs first and foremost and are known for their two-way contribution, so it makes sense to have them get up and down accordingly.

I don't expect them to do that either. I just wanted to clarify that I talk of these situations, not of leaving players behind when you're in possession.

In the end, it was a long-winded way of saying I'd rather have them constantly occupied in defense when I have the ball.

 

[Synco]

To be honest I think your 4-3-3 and my 3-5-2 are both true to the principles that usually underpin them. Both teams have nice fits across the board and I buy the theoretical role for Zebec (because he didn't play there in his career but has the attributes to do so) and Voronin (in certain circumstances). Perhaps less convinced on David Villa on the right wing, given all his experience was as a centre-forward or a second striker from the left. That may be enough of an inexperienced fit to give Facchetti more of an opening compared to had he been tracked by an actual right-sided midfielder or equivalent.

I've waited for that one

Villa did indeed play on the right at times, although him and Pedro were frequently interchanging anyway. A rather famous example is the CL final 2011:

I watched that game, and you had Villa coming from the right but also from the left, and the same goes for Pedro. Which is what I want to recreate in this game:

Total football with Messi in the center - the front three + De Bruyne will be highly fluid, as will be the team in general. Blokhin and Villa can play both flanks & through the middle, and finish with both feet.

Villa and Blokhin were indeed comfortable attacking & scoring from both flanks, and with both feet. If anyone's interested in two great highlight videos, they can be seen doing all of this here:

 

[Gio]

I've waited for that one

Villa did indeed play on the right at times, although him and Pedro were frequently interchanging anyway. A rather famous example is a game mentioned elsewhere in the OP - the CL final 2011:

I watched that game, and you had Villa coming from the right but also from the left, and the same goes for Pedro. Which is what I wanted to recreate here:

Villa and Blokhin were indeed comfortable attacking & scoring from both flanks, and with both feet. If anyone's interested in two great highlight videos, they can be seen doing all of this here:

Yeah solid example. However, there's a world of difference in a game that Barcelona dominated against an almost empty United midfield with responsibility to track a bunkered-down Evra in a back 4, versus tracking Facchetti as a LWB. Not just the head-to-head match-up, but I simply don't see our midfield ceding much control given the calibre of Zito, Breitner and Zidane - which means there will be greater off the ball shifts for your wide players, which pull them further away from goal.

 

[Synco]

Yeah solid example. However, there's a world of difference in a game that Barcelona dominated against an almost empty United midfield with responsibility to track a bunkered-down Evra in a back 4, versus tracking Facchetti as a LWB. Not just the head-to-head match-up, but I simply don't see our midfield ceding much control given the calibre of Zito, Breitner and Zidane - which means there will be greater off the ball shifts for your wide players, which pull them further away from goal.

Zito/Breitner/Zidane are up against Modric, Rijkaard, KDB, and Messi moving into AM positions. Of course they'll have their own share of time on the ball, but that's a hell of a task.

And it simply goes both ways - if you keep possession and your formation shifts higher as a consequence, Blokhin, Messi, Villa, De Bruyne will have more space to combine and run into once you lose the ball. Messi releasing Blokhin with a ball behind the backline or into a 1:1 with a defender is nothing to look forward to.

Great possession teams aren't ball-dominant because they're subpar on the break - besides their ball retention qualities, one reason is that most opponents acknowledge it's lethal to grant them space behind the backline.

So to make it clear: of course you have multiple routes to goal - but so do I. My comment on that was...

Motto of the day: If you score one, we can score two.

So maybe I should begin to shift the focus more towards the latter part of that motto.

 

[Physiocrat]

Serious kudos to the OP @Synco

Glad to see Messi back at false 9.

Two cracking sides. On the fence at the moment.

 

[Synco]

Speaking of 2011, here are two classic Messi false-9 performances from that Champions League campaign:



All of Gio's central defenders were greats of the game, but the question is how that rather traditional defense would be coping with a super-fluid false-9 offense like this one. Especially since Gio's team seems to be operating in attacking mode - fair enough -, which will naturally expose them more than sitting deep and countering.

Will they go man-to man? If not, how do they deal with defending zonally against a constantly changing threat? How does Gio's team deal with Messi's movement in general?

During this draft, I've made the case for Voronin and Zebec in that regard - I think it would be necessary to do the same for at least Sammer and Förster. (With Bergomi there might be historic precedent of him operating in a zonal defense, although perhaps not against a comparable type of offense.) Unsure about the two Germans, as to my knowledge they were classic products of the stopper-libero universe, which already started to become archaic during Sammer's late libero peak.

To be clear, this is not meant as a frontal attack on Gio's defenders (which would be silly), but simply as raising the question. It's an important one for this game, and I find it hard to answer myself.

 

[Gio]

All of Gio's central defenders were greats of the game, but the question is how that rather traditional defense would be coping with a super-fluid false-9 offense like this one. Especially since Gio's team seems to be operating in attacking mode - fair enough -, which will naturally expose them more than sitting deep and countering.

Will they go man-to man? If not, how do they deal with defending zonally against a constantly changing threat? How does Gio's team deal with Messi's movement in general?

I think we've covered that one already. Because we have a well designed 3-5-2, with fluid interchanging in place as it moves across the park, forwards and backwards, the threat of fluidity from the opposition is not a problem. One of the tactical lessons from Saturday's Champions League Final was how difficult it was for City's fluid attack to find space against Chelsea's well drilled 3-5-2. Every time a City wide forward cut inside, he was either fronted up by the wing-back or the side-CB. Structurally that was a question Guardiola did not have an answer for. We would have a similar approach here. As ruthlessly effective as Forster and Bergomi are as markers, they are both highly intelligent defenders who have long since mastered the simple concept of passing players on when they switch and move. And it helps when you have the likes of Facchetti and Cafu supporting who are highly competent defenders capable of picking men up and covering them off without missing a beat.

And to give a less recent example, look how well Italy's 3-5-2 fared against false 9 Spain in Euro 2012. A 1-1 draw where their defensive numbers, shape and acumen shut out the great Spanish team. And where Spain were vulnerable to the counter as Pirlo ably showed with a lovely through ball (for Pirlo read Breitner here).

.


Fast forward to the final with a back 4 and the change in shape opened up gaps that Spain happily exposed. Result 4-0.

Same teams. But a massively different outcome.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

To be fair, both excellent teams.

One team is built with winning the draft in mind while the other is built with winning hearts in mind. My vote will always go to the latter although as Bepo says, not possible to seperate teams of this quality beyond a point.

 

[Gio]

Another weapon in exposing a high line is Paul Breitner's range of passing from midfield.


Loads of examples in there of him breaching the opposition defensive line with a 30-40-yard ball, perfectly weighted into the path of Rummenigge. No Rummy here, but you can see how Breitner dovetailed so well with a proper all-round forward who could stretch defences and attack the ball from different angles. In Pele and Muller we have two of them here and Breitner has the tools to exploit their strengths - their aerial ability, their pace on the break, their technical ability in finishing with head, on the volley or on the ground. It's not just about the high line, but about the natural relationship Breitner would strike up with the two attackers. I'm not convinced the opposition back line would enjoy facing up to a more conventional front two, a proper physical striker partnership like this.

 

[Theon]

Zito/Breitner/Zidane are up against Modric, Rijkaard, KDB, and Messi moving into AM positions. Of course they'll have their own share of time on the ball, but that's a hell of a task.

Good luck mate, really good OP.

On the above appreciate the false #9 narrative makes it cleaner to talk of Messi in these terms, but in reality if you’re including Messi in the midfield battle you should equally include Pelé - his work rate was phenomenal and if you watch any of his compilations you’ll see him picking up the ball from midfield and driving forward through the opposition back line. The beauty of Pelé, and what truly made him unique, was how complete he was as a footballer in terms of physicality, work-rate, technical ability and mentality. In this game he’s more than capable of buzzing around Modric and winning the ball back if he tries to pick up the ball deep and dictate from midfield - he’ll do that more than Messi imo.

Even more important than Pelé though is the contribution from Sammer from the midfield battle - he’s a complete, box to box libero (who’s equally capable just playing a pure midfield role) yet you’ve completely ignored his contribution in your post above. Clearly he’ll contribute massively to this battle, with his dynamism in front of the defence helping to snuff out danger when you get on the ball - actually struggling to think of a better stylistic fit for ‘tracking’ Messi when he drops off into those pockets. Looks tailor made for Sammer, and the exact sort of monumental challenge he’d relish and rise to.

In possession Sammer is capable of running the show from the libero position - his Euro ‘96 performances were historically good, he was Germany’s best player in every phase (marshalling the back line to concede just three goals all tournament, whilst showcasing his offensive contributions in a one-man dismantling of Croatia in the quarter-final) and his overall performance levels are only really rivalled by Euro 2000 Zidane in full-flow and probably Xavi (Euro 2008 arguably his best international tournament). I’d put Sammer’s performance right up there with those two, it was a genuine showcase of what’s capable from the libero position and he rightfully went on to beat Ronaldo to the Ballon d’Or that year. In this team he’s playing this exact same role, with an even better platform and supporting cast - he’s as likely as anyone to be a match winner here.

Highlights from the QF: Winning the penalty at 1.45 and scoring the winner at 4.35 with trademark runs through midfield.

 

[Synco]

One of the tactical lessons from Saturday's Champions League Final was how difficult it was for City's fluid attack to find space against Chelsea's well drilled 3-5-2. Every time a City wide forward cut inside, he was either fronted up by the wing-back or the side-CB. Structurally that was a question Guardiola did not have an answer for.

That's not true, as far as I remember. In the second half, City got behind Chelsea's backline several times by playing these sharp lob passes in the space between/behind the WBs and wide CBs. Which is a classic weapon against a back 3/5.

With Messi I have a (perhaps the) GOAT when it comes to these passes behind a packed defense, way beyond anything City had to offer - then there are also Modric and De Bruyne (who had to be taken off around that time in the final), who can play these balls with precision. The latter two are especially adept at killer balls in transition, which is important as your approach will make this a more open game.




So it's not like a 3/5 backline is an impenetrable obstacle for a possession team by design. If you opted for a full-on Mourinho approach, I'd buy that as a serious problem (including against a back 4, mind). But as things stand, I'm sure there will be quite a few opportunities for these kinds of passes/runs behind the backline, and my team will happily have a go at it.

(Plus I don't think these close analogies from the CL final work btw, as both offenses are so much superior to what City and Chelsea could muster up. And the defenses too of course, but the difference in offense is always greater.)

 

[Synco]

Good luck mate, really good OP.

Cheers, I think both Gio and I have gone straight at it, ignoring the etiquette

So: good luck to you and @Gio!

You can contribute as much as you like to the discussion, btw.

 

[Theon]

How does Gio's team deal with Messi's movement in general?

Whenever you’re facing a player like Messi it’s always a collective effort, but I think there’s pretty formidable counter to his movement in the form of Sammer (a world-class libero, completely comfortable pushing up into midfield) and Zito (disciplined defensive midfielder patrolling that area behind Breitner). Even after beating those two (should it happen) there’s still Bergomi and Forster to get through, which is at least as strong a defensive unit to get through as Voronin / Ferdinand (think it’s probably stronger in truth, although I do rate Ferdinand very highly).

In reality I think the far, far bigger defensive concern here is how you’re going to try and contain Pelé and Gerd Müller playing a Pep-style high-line.. I know it’s pointing out the obvious, but they’ve scored over a thousand goals between them and were both comfortably consistent goal-a-game forwards at their peak. In a “you’ll score one, we’ll score two” gung-ho high-line offensive firefight I think you’re asking for a huge amount of trouble.. (imo of course!)

Specifically on Pelé - he was absolutely rapid and would be devastating counter attacking against a Guardiola high-line, you probably couldn’t devise a more explosive player to exploit it bar Ronaldo (the original one). One on one he should have the beating of Voronin quite comfortably imo, particularly with the service he’ll get over the top from Zidane. And we aren’t really even touching on Müller who brings his own challenges with his intelligent movement, link-up play and finishing ability.

Cheers, I think both Gio and I have gone straight at it, ignoring the etiquette

So: good luck to you and @Gio!

You can contribute as much as you like to the discussion, btw.

It’s been a high-quality debate to be fair, like the draft games of old! Glad you both went straight at it.

Thank you mate on the contribution, I’ll try and stick to the three post rule though so will only do one more at the most (but tbh might just leave it and enjoy the debate from the sidelines!).

 

[Synco]

Thank you mate on the contribution, I’ll try and stick to the three post rule though so will only do one more at the most (but tbh might just leave it and enjoy the debate from the sidelines!).

It's your choice, but you really don't have to. I may simply not be able to answer to everything, but I doubt there are too many people here who read through all these walls of texts we produce anyway

On the above appreciate the false #9 narrative makes it cleaner to talk of Messi in these terms, but in reality if you’re including Messi in the midfield battle you should equally include Pelé - his work rate was phenomenal and if you watch any of his compilations you’ll see him picking up the ball from midfield and driving forward through the opposition back line. The beauty of Pelé, and what truly made him unique, was how complete he was as a footballer in terms of physicality, work-rate, technical ability and mentality. In this game he’s more than capable of buzzing around Modric and winning the ball back if he tries to pick up the ball deep and dictate from midfield - he’ll do that more than Messi imo.

That's true, but also a point I brought up during the semis - specifically the division of work between him and Zidane. If I remember correctly, Gio's answer was that Zidane is the one dictating more from midfield (with distinct #8.5 characteristics), with Pele more of a roaming creative support striker. Your OP writeup here says the same.

I looked into this further between the semis and the final, and the impression remains that both are at their best as the offensive hub of their team, with freedom to run the game as they please. I'd say the more Pele takes on that role you outline, the more the compability of him and Zidane becomes a question (in terms of having both at their absolute best).

The issue is too complicated to cover now - especially since several historical setups featuring Pele were brought up that need to be addressed. And I simply have to go to bed. So more on that tomorrow.

 

[Theon]

It's your choice, but you really don't have to. I may simply not be able to answer to everything, but I doubt there are too many people here who read through all these walls of texts we produce anyway

Ha, probably not!

That's true, but also a point I brought up during the semis - specifically the division of work between him and Zidane. If I remember correctly, Gio's answer was that Zidane is the one dictating more from midfield (with distinct #8.5 characteristics), with Pele more of a roaming creative support striker. Your OP writeup here says the same.

I looked into this further between the semis and the final, and the impression remains that both are at their best as the offensive hub of their team, with freedom to run the game as they please. I'd say the more Pele takes on that role you outline, the more the compability of him and Zidane becomes a question (in terms of having both at their absolute best).

Ahh okay, can see what you’re getting at but disagree with that conclusion. I think the answer Gio gave was actually really good (far better than I could do anyway!) but ultimately there are some clear stylistic and positional differences between the two.

Whilst Pelé dropped deep into similar areas (as a consequence of his dynamism and workrate), ultimately he was a second striker playing off the front and if we were to take a heat map of his positioning it would be much more offensive than Zidane’s (who as Gio noted straddled the line between #10 and #8). When you have high-workrate fluid players like that there are bound to be some overlaps, but it’s all part and parcel of the package and helps create overloads and vary the threat in different areas of the park.

Stylistically as you can see from the games online Pelé’s tendency when picking up the ball was to play very direct, driving past the opposition (hence his threat on the counter attack) which is a different focus to the playmaking emphasis from Zidane and the two could definitely work in tandem imo, it’s not dissimilar to the sort of roaming second striker partnerships with Henry, Del Piero or Raul.

Ultimately though, even when Pelé did become more of a playmaking #10 towards the latter part of his career in WC ‘70 he managed to thrive in a team overloaded with technical playmakers.. Tostao, Rivelino, Gerson, Clodoaldo, Carlos Alberto.. so theres no reason to assume the mid-60s version (who as mentioned was more of a direct, roaming goalscorer) would struggle to coexist with Zidane. In the ‘70 World Cup it was the genius of Pelé that knitted this collection of technicians together, rather than somehow ‘take away’ from the abilities of the others or diminish their influence, Pelé has the exact opposite effect, maximising the performances of everyone in the team which became the greatest international side of all time.

For this reason Pelé is often seems as being the ‘GOAT at playing with other GOATS’ (!) which is a pretty apt description in my view. I think it’s very different to a Cruyff or even a Maradona, with Pelé there’s never been this perception that he needed to be the sole creative or offensive focus in a team, which a trend he showcased throughout his career beginning with Garrincha.

And I simply have to go to bed. So more on that tomorrow.

Me too! Night mate.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Great team's and Great discussion!

 

[harms]

You won’t find a bigger Voronin fan than me, obviously, but it has to be mentioned that he had a rather traumatic experience playing against a certain Edson Arantes do Nascimento. Both were on top of their game and Voronin was pretty cocky, saying that he and Pelé would cancel each other out, asking to be put on a man-marking job on him. That didn’t end well for him (which is one of the many reasons why I have Pelé in a distinctly different tier even to someone like Eusébio).

Yes, it isn’t a man-marking job and Voronin’s use have certainly been the tactical highlight of the draft, but I have a feeling that even with all of the tactical stuff, Pelé & Müller may end up being the boring (who am I kidding, those two, boring?) and inevitable match-winners.

 

[harms]

I’m still going to take my time before voting though

 

[antohan]

Looking at this is quite scary. Why didn't I just stay in retirement?

Few thoughts:

If those two teams resulted from an auction draft with equal budgets Synco got robbed or Gio is Scottish.

That said, while Gio's is easier on the eye, a second take at Synco's makes the (much harder) concept he worked towards pretty transparent. That's remarkable, and so is the attention to detail and precision in the instructions.

I can't buy the "you score one we will score two" line though, not when facing Pelé and Müller. That's cheating.

 

[Synco]

If those two teams resulted from an auction draft with equal budgets Synco got robbed or Gio is Scottish.

It's excellent drafting as usual from Gio/Theon - they were the team to beat even without Pele. The extra bit of goatiness however is down to the specific mode of this draft, best to explain it later.

That said, while Gio's is easier on the eye, a second take at Synco's makes the (much harder) concept he worked towards pretty transparent. That's remarkable, and so is the attention to detail and precision in the instructions.

Cheers, I drafted towards a very particular concept, in short: Barca/City hybrid - in terms of possession/verticality - with a strong defense. So I kept on building towards that idea and decided against going the GOAT route from the semis on (where it became clear that with a little luck you could get tier 1 GOATs on the cheap).

I can't buy the "you score one we will score two" line though, not when facing Pelé and Müller. That's cheating.

I think you got the intention wrong there - read it as a motto of bravery, not as a deluded prediction.

It's the acknowledgement that:

a) it will be hard to keep the opposition from scoring
b) the task then is simply to score one more (or at least keep it level & trust Neuer on pens)

Stranger things have happened in real life football, and without that attitude there'd be no reason to even show up here.

 

[antohan]

I think you got the intention wrong there - read it as a motto of bravery, not as a deluded prediction.

Not sure that came across the right way. I meant Pelé-Müller was like having a cheatcode. Nothing wrong with the aspirational motto.

Agree on the showing up part, that's why I opened with "I should have stayed retired". I'm never going to build a star-studded side because I place trust in players I have a lot of time for and absolutely hate discarding them. By the same token, I won't build as coherent a side as yours because I'd rather pick with the heart than with the head. I just hope I don't let my boys down getting them shat on

 

[Gio]

You won’t find a bigger Voronin fan than me, obviously, but it has to be mentioned that he had a rather traumatic experience playing against a certain Edson Arantes do Nascimento. Both were on top of their game and Voronin was pretty cocky, saying that he and Pelé would cancel each other out, asking to be put on a man-marking job on him. That didn’t end well for him (which is one of the many reasons why I have Pelé in a distinctly different tier even to someone like Eusébio).

Yes, it isn’t a man-marking job and Voronin’s use have certainly been the tactical highlight of the draft, but I have a feeling that even with all of the tactical stuff, Pelé & Müller may end up being the boring (who am I kidding, those two, boring?) and inevitable match-winners.

Aye that’s the ‘elephant in the room’ that I didn’t want to bring up earlier on because there was a good tactical back-and-fore. But yes Voronin, whose deployment has been well engineered by Synco up to this point, facing the one guy who he couldn’t handle. The one guy who tore a strong Soviet Union team to shreds, not once but twice. Step forward - Pelé .

Impressive performance that. Love the music too.

Spoiler

That's you and Messi, Synco, about to hit our Pele and Muller sculpted iceberg

 

[Synco]

Not sure that came across the right way. I meant Pelé-Müller was like having a cheatcode. Nothing wrong with the aspirational motto.

Ah, got you.

Agree on the showing up part, that's why I opened with "I should have stayed retired". I'm never going to build a star-studded side because I place trust in players I have a lot of time for and absolutely hate discarding them. By the same token, I won't build as coherent a side as yours because I'd rather pick with the heart than with the head. I just hope I don't let my boys down getting them shat on

One thing I love about these these drafts is that they allow for so many different approaches & everyone has their own style.

 

[Synco]

You won’t find a bigger Voronin fan than me, obviously, but it has to be mentioned that he had a rather traumatic experience playing against a certain Edson Arantes do Nascimento. Both were on top of their game and Voronin was pretty cocky, saying that he and Pelé would cancel each other out, asking to be put on a man-marking job on him. That didn’t end well for him (which is one of the many reasons why I have Pelé in a distinctly different tier even to someone like Eusébio).

I knew about that, and frankly decided not to bother. In the end it's Pele, who would be a safe bet to guard him anyway? (That said, the exact same goes for Messi.)

The only way to deal with GOATs is to rely on one's own strength and hope it pans out. Different times, but think of Boateng as an illustration: got badly mugged in some of his games against a Messi-led offense, but did brilliantly in others (and high profile ones at that). It's just about hoping you'll have that kind of game this time.

Spoiler

That's you and Messi, Synco, about to hit our Pele and Muller sculpted iceberg

Now now, no need to get nasty

 

[Synco]

Ahh okay, can see what you’re getting at but disagree with that conclusion. I think the answer Gio gave was actually really good (far better than I could do anyway!) but ultimately there are some clear stylistic and positional differences between the two.

Whilst Pelé dropped deep into similar areas (as a consequence of his dynamism and workrate), ultimately he was a second striker playing off the front and if we were to take a heat map of his positioning it would be much more offensive than Zidane’s (who as Gio noted straddled the line between #10 and #8). When you have high-workrate fluid players like that there are bound to be some overlaps, but it’s all part and parcel of the package and helps create overloads and vary the threat in different areas of the park.

Stylistically as you can see from the games online Pelé’s tendency when picking up the ball was to play very direct, driving past the opposition (hence his threat on the counter attack) which is a different focus to the playmaking emphasis from Zidane and the two could definitely work in tandem imo, it’s not dissimilar to the sort of roaming second striker partnerships with Henry, Del Piero or Raul.

Ultimately though, even when Pelé did become more of a playmaking #10 towards the latter part of his career in WC ‘70 he managed to thrive in a team overloaded with technical playmakers.. Tostao, Rivelino, Gerson, Clodoaldo, Carlos Alberto.. so theres no reason to assume the mid-60s version (who as mentioned was more of a direct, roaming goalscorer) would struggle to coexist with Zidane. In the ‘70 World Cup it was the genius of Pelé that knitted this collection of technicians together, rather than somehow ‘take away’ from the abilities of the others or diminish their influence, Pelé has the exact opposite effect, maximising the performances of everyone in the team which became the greatest international side of all time.

For this reason Pelé is often seems as being the ‘GOAT at playing with other GOATS’ (!) which is a pretty apt description in my view. I think it’s very different to a Cruyff or even a Maradona, with Pelé there’s never been this perception that he needed to be the sole creative or offensive focus in a team, which a trend he showcased throughout his career beginning with Garrincha.

I'd buy all of this if we were talking about that classic Santos/Brazil 4-4-2. I'd also buy Zidane in the Didi/Gerson role - he has played in a similar setup for Juve alongside Deschamps, for example. But I don't really buy it in this 3-4-1-2.

Main point is that in the 4-4-2 all additional playmakers were carefully spread around Pele - Didi or Gerson as a playmaking #8 (Didi at least in the 1962 games I saw, so Pele's peak). In the 1970 Dead Drafters game (vs England) we even had Rivelino playing in a midfield two when Gerson was unavailable. Star attackers like Garrincha or Jairzinho were played on the wings. So while it's true that Pele cooperated brilliantly with multiple main men, the setups I know always left a nice hole in the #10 spot for him to move into.

Look where peak Pele received the ball in this Santos team (which you cited as the blueprint in the OP):

That's what I meant with offensive hub.

And while I'd buy Zidane in a midfield two, in this draft game he is one of only three designated attackers. There are five (!) central players behind him, two of them being Sammer and latter day Breitner - dominant playmakers. So imo you don't need Zidane as an 8.5 here, you need him as a full-blown #10. In this setup, the Didi 1962 position would roughly be Breitner's in my eyes, not Zidane's. (Even nicely illustrated by his CM partner.)

So it's not necessarily the players as such, although there could at least be an argument about that too. It's rather the setup that makes #8 Zidane redundant and #10 Zidane overlapping considerably with Pele. It's of course possible for great playmakers to coexist, and it would probably work the more Pele restricts himself to being a classic support striker - although that would already be a limitation in my eyes. But you were arguing with him dropping deep and contributing to the midfield battle, and that would be overkill, imo. Something's got to give, and I see that as the main difficulty of playing multiple GOATs at once.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

I did think the 5-3-2 looks better.

Zidane as the LCM who could drift wide as he so often did and work with Carlos when Pele drops deep. Breitner of course again perfect as a widish CM

 

[Himannv]

I think Pele would probably drop deeper than where you'd see a typical support striker operate, particularly if his team doesn't see much of the ball. That doesn't necessarily mean he wouldn't co-exist with Zidane though and from what I've seen of him, he can operate in similar areas to an AM/playmaker without them getting in each others way. That's based on a very small sample size but it's what I've seen.

 

[Gio]

I'd buy all of this if we were talking about that classic Santos/Brazil 4-4-2. I'd also buy Zidane in the Didi/Gerson role - he has played in a similar setup for Juve alongside Deschamps, for example. But I don't really buy it in this 3-4-1-2.

Main point is that in the 4-4-2 all additional playmakers were carefully spread around Pele - Didi or Gerson as a playmaking #8 (Didi at least in the 1962 games I saw, so Pele's peak). In the 1970 Dead Drafters game (vs England) we even had Rivelino playing in a midfield two when Gerson was unavailable. Star attackers like Garrincha or Jairzinho were played on the wings. So while it's true that Pele cooperated brilliantly with multiple main men, the setups I know always left a nice hole in the #10 spot for him to move into.

Look where peak Pele received the ball in this Santos team (which you cited as the blueprint in the OP):

That's what I meant with offensive hub.

And while I'd buy Zidane in a midfield two, in this draft game he is one of only three designated attackers. There are five (!) central players behind him, two of them being Sammer and latter day Breitner - dominant playmakers. So imo you don't need Zidane as an 8.5 here, you need him as a full-blown #10. In this setup, the Didi 1962 position would roughly be Breitner's in my eyes, not Zidane's. (Even nicely illustrated by his CM partner.)

So it's not necessarily the players as such, although there could at least be an argument about that too. It's rather the setup that makes #8 Zidane redundant and #10 Zidane overlapping considerably with Pele. It's of course possible for great playmakers to coexist, and it would probably work the more Pele restricts himself to being a classic support striker - although that would already be a limitation in my eyes. But you were arguing with him dropping deep and contributing to the midfield battle, and that would be overkill, imo. Something's got to give, and I see that as the main difficulty of playing multiple GOATs at once.

I'll quote my own post from the previous game below because I still think it addresses these arguments.

Yes I think much of it is, particularly around Zidane operating in deeper areas than Pele. All 10s are comfiest somewhere on a spectrum between a no 8 and a no 9.5. And I think Zidane generally was nearer a midfield-controlling 8 than he was a penalty box hitting 9.5.

As for Zidane amongst other creative players, he usually played off that second striker type, be it Del Piero, Raul or Henry. And that compatibility with a 9.5 I think reflects his interpretation of the 10 role.

Of course the other factor here is Pele. He’s arguably the most malleable of all the GOATs. In the 1958 and 1962 teams he shares the role of attacking focal point not only with Didi, but Garrincha too. And Garrincha was a more testing player to play alongside than anyone on the park here. Yet they were unbeatable together.

Furthermore 1970 was the acid test for this given how he gelled all these other 10s together in a far more challenging set up than this one, with individualists and ball-hoggers in Rivellino and Jairzinho to contend with. All tests that Pele passed with flying colours and in theoretically less complementary set-ups than this one before us here.

The main point on Zidane is that he is more of a playmaking 10 rather than a penalty-box-attacking 10 (a Rivaldo, Baggio, Kaka type). His interpretation of the 10 role has enabled him to play with all these other 9.5s to great effect. Here's an example from the 97/98 season in the same 3-4-1-2 system behind a second striker in the inside-left channel.

What's interesting is that we considered swapping Zidane out for one of the potentially superior AMs (Maradona, Platini, Cruyff, Di Stefano, Charlton) in the final special pack round. But we decided it wasn't worth the risk of potentially affecting the, in my view, neat compatability we had between Pele and Zidane. With Zidane's track record of performing to his best next to brilliant 9.5s, and Pele's track record of performing to his best alongside similar or more dominant creative attackers, it felt right to keep the existing blend between the two.

 

[Physiocrat]

@Synco @Gio

How similar do you think Pele is to Del Piero in the general positions they take up?