Auction Draft Chaos 2021 FINAL- Synco vs Gio

[Synco]

I'll quote my own post from the previous game below because I still think it addresses these arguments.


The main point on Zidane is that he is more of a playmaking 10 rather than a penalty-box-attacking 10 (a Rivaldo, Baggio, Kaka type). His interpretation of the 10 role has enabled him to play with all these other 9.5s to great effect. Here's an example from the 97/98 season in the same 3-4-1-2 system behind a second striker in the inside-left channel.

What's interesting is that we considered swapping Zidane out for one of the potentially superior AMs (Maradona, Platini, Cruyff, Di Stefano, Charlton) in the final special pack round. But we decided it wasn't worth the risk of potentially affecting the, in my view, neat compatability we had between Pele and Zidane. With Zidane's track record of performing to his best next to brilliant 9.5s, and Pele's track record of performing to his best alongside similar or more dominant creative attackers, it felt right to keep the existing blend between the two.

Just like the Brazil/Santos 4-4-2, I think the significance of this Juve setup for your draft team is limited.

For one thing, there's no Breitner + Sammer duo behind Zidane, but a selection of defenders and dedicated sidemen. My picture of Del Piero is also a bit different from peak Pele - more of the stereotypical 9.5 than the Brazilian. (To be clear, Pele did that plenty as well, but I think he was distinctly more than that when fully expressing himself.)

So to me this setup still looks like Zidane running the show in a way that doesn't limit him in any way. Didn't watch the game, though. But here's Del Piero in that same season (credit to Sjor Bepo):


Of course he roams & there is a congruence with Pele's movement in higher areas, but his positioning and general interpretation of the role still seems a far cry from the moments when Pele picks up the ball deep in buildup & starts attacks. And from contributing to the midfield battle, like Theon has put it for Pele, comparing him to false-9 Messi:

in reality if you’re including Messi in the midfield battle you should equally include Pelé - his work rate was phenomenal and if you watch any of his compilations you’ll see him picking up the ball from midfield and driving forward through the opposition back line. (...) In this game he’s more than capable of buzzing around Modric and winning the ball back if he tries to pick up the ball deep and dictate from midfield - he’ll do that more than Messi imo.

Anyway, I don't want to get too tribalistic on this one, and I naturally accentuate possible doubts as long as the game is still on. I think I've said enough, and there are also limits to the "not playing at his best" argument. Of course there can always be workable compromises.

 

[Synco]

@Synco @Gio

How similar do you think Pele is to Del Piero in the general positions they take up?

See above for my take.

 

[Enigma_87]

I think Pele would probably drop deeper than where you'd see a typical support striker operate, particularly if his team doesn't see much of the ball. That doesn't necessarily mean he wouldn't co-exist with Zidane though and from what I've seen of him, he can operate in similar areas to an AM/playmaker without them getting in each others way. That's based on a very small sample size but it's what I've seen.

It is correct even in a bigger sample size. He was very mobile and loved to drop deep and help the midfield. He described his game very often as a midfielder rather than a striker at his peak. In his later years and the 70's version he wasn't as dynamic and as engaged, but at his peak Santos years and from the full games on YT there are a lot of examples of him dropping to midfield to initiate moves and more often than not you would see 2-3 players in front of him when he's on the ball as passing options:

Great teams lads, as Himannv, I'm not saying he can't play alongside Zidane, just highlighting his engagement in attack/midfield and that he loved to start moves and be on the ball at his peak as most as possible.

 

[Synco]

Not much has been said about Rijkaard so far. So I just want to put out a gentle reminder of his goaty presence in the center of the action.

 

[Gio]

@Synco @Gio

How similar do you think Pele is to Del Piero in the general positions they take up?

There are some similarities positionally. Both are second strikers who like dropping off the front man into pockets of space between the midfield and defence. The main difference is that I'd say Del Piero peels wider more frequently, which was necessary in the more narrow and defensive Juventus set-ups, compared to Santos and Brazil.

Del Piero is but one example though. Here are a few more.

• Djorkaeff - another creative player, could be described as a 10 or a 9.5, and was France's creative reference point post Cantona in the mid 1990s, and who he played alongside for France at Euro 1996 and the 1998 World Cup

• Raul - fairly classic second striker who like Pele played everywhere from 10 through to 9 and generally preferred the same inside-left channel. By this stage in Raul's career he tended to drop off the defence to pick the ball up in the hole or in the 10 position. Shared a few set-ups with Zidane at Real, but their partnership always seemed fairly natural. In the Champions League winning shape below, he's not only sharing 10 space with Raul, but Figo too, who operated much narrower at this stage of his career. No longer the winger of old, Figo was basically an inside-right by this stage, sharing creative duties with Zidane.

• Henry - another pacy forward who shares various qualities with Pele - pace, acceleration, ball-carrying ability, athleticism, standing up defenders and bursting past them. At Euro 2000 Henry had that positionally similar second striker role from the left-hand side next to Zidane who far from being compromised, enjoyed his best ever tournament.

Multiple examples of Zidane successfully sharing creative duties with a 9.5 (or even a 10).

 

[Šjor Bepo]

I really dont understand the latest debate, for me its almost irrelevant in which zones players move but whats matter is how they react to each other actions.
Del Piero, Raul, Djorkaeff all knew Zizou was class above so it was either they take the back seat in a supporting role or they feck off(not really, but they did it for the good of the team).
Henry while closer in quality was also ready to put team first which he proved once again in Barca few years later.

So the question is, how will Zidane react to the fact Pele is the main guy. Given its only them 2 as Gerd isnt an issue and IMO Breitner isnt an issue i can see them clicking.

 

[antohan]

I'd buy all of this if we were talking about that classic Santos/Brazil 4-4-2. I'd also buy Zidane in the Didi/Gerson role - he has played in a similar setup for Juve alongside Deschamps, for example. But I don't really buy it in this 3-4-1-2.

Main point is that in the 4-4-2 all additional playmakers were carefully spread around Pele - Didi or Gerson as a playmaking #8 (Didi at least in the 1962 games I saw, so Pele's peak). In the 1970 Dead Drafters game (vs England) we even had Rivelino playing in a midfield two when Gerson was unavailable. Star attackers like Garrincha or Jairzinho were played on the wings. So while it's true that Pele cooperated brilliantly with multiple main men, the setups I know always left a nice hole in the #10 spot for him to move into.

Look where peak Pele received the ball in this Santos team (which you cited as the blueprint in the OP):

That's what I meant with offensive hub.

And while I'd buy Zidane in a midfield two, in this draft game he is one of only three designated attackers. There are five (!) central players behind him, two of them being Sammer and latter day Breitner - dominant playmakers. So imo you don't need Zidane as an 8.5 here, you need him as a full-blown #10. In this setup, the Didi 1962 position would roughly be Breitner's in my eyes, not Zidane's. (Even nicely illustrated by his CM partner.)

So it's not necessarily the players as such, although there could at least be an argument about that too. It's rather the setup that makes #8 Zidane redundant and #10 Zidane overlapping considerably with Pele. It's of course possible for great playmakers to coexist, and it would probably work the more Pele restricts himself to being a classic support striker - although that would already be a limitation in my eyes. But you were arguing with him dropping deep and contributing to the midfield battle, and that would be overkill, imo. Something's got to give, and I see that as the main difficulty of playing multiple GOATs at once.

For what it's worth, that's somewhat what I meant by easier on the eye vs the precision in your instructions (e.g. Voronin isn't easy on the eye there, but I buy it in the grand scheme of things).

I gave it for granted Zidane isn't in the hole but drifts into the inside left space ala Didí. Likewise, that Müller isn't on the right but the only dedicated centreforward as Pelé just drops deep or roams across the frontline at will.

It's more of a 5-3-2/5-3-1-1 if you ask me. Depicting it that way though would give away that Zidane isn't the best fit for the game you are presenting them with (neither is Didí, mind).

I can think of tonnes of lesser names that would have a better game over the 90 minutes. What Zidane does bring though is he can kill you off in 3-4 key interventions, waltzing around under pressure, inviting more players to commit like a magnet and then finding Pelé/Müller/Breitner unattended as a result. He will have a few of those, they will be too many, and that's why you still play him.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

The debate is both interesting and one that puts you to sleep. Pata after para after para. Just joking of course, good thread for a final.

 

[Synco]

The debate is both interesting and one that puts you to sleep. Pata after para after para. Just joking of course, good thread for a final.

Seems to have run out of steam by now. Probably everything said already.

 

[Gio]

The debate is both interesting and one that puts you to sleep. Pata after para after para. Just joking of course, good thread for a final.

I really dont understand the latest debate, for me its almost irrelevant in which zones players move but whats matter is how they react to each other actions.
Del Piero, Raul, Djorkaeff all knew Zizou was class above so it was either they take the back seat in a supporting role or they feck off(not really, but they did it for the good of the team).
Henry while closer in quality was also ready to put team first which he proved once again in Barca few years later.

So the question is, how will Zidane react to the fact Pele is the main guy. Given its only them 2 as Gerd isnt an issue and IMO Breitner isnt an issue i can see them clicking.

Well it's a little bit odd. Most of us accept Pele's compatability with other dominant attacking personalities including notorious ball-hoggers like Garrincha, Rivelino, Jairzinho or even Didi. Zidane the same given some of the stacked and rather lop-sided teams he ended up in at Real.

To be honest I see that as a more seamless combination than De Bruyne and Messi. Given De Bruyne's more direct instincts in that central attacking midfield zone, I'm not sure how natural these dovetail with Messi's ball-demanding and tiki-taka based preferences. As a false 9 he was at his absolute best alongside complete facilitators in Iniesta and Xavi who would give him the ball every time, and, as such, took very few shots themselves. As much as I rate De Bruyne, I don't think that (a) Messi squeezing that space for him to break into, or (b) De Bruyne's more direct shot-based style from 20-30 yards out, presents slight clashes of style which might not get the 100% out of either player.

 

[Theon]

Have to admit I’ve been struggling with this Pelé argument! Fundamentally I just don’t think there’s anything in his body of work which suggests he struggles to perform with other great players or that he somehow diminishes their influence.. in fact his entire career showcases the exact opposite. Whether it’s Didi, Garrincha or Rivelino, rather than somehow ‘inhibiting’ others Pelé achieved the complete opposite and maximised their performances for the good of their team. We’re somehow turning a known quality of Pelé (and a big part of why he’ll always be the GOAT) into a critique, which feels really weak and disingenuous to me. If it was someone like Cruyff or Maradona I’d get this avenue of argument, but with Pele I think it’s way off.

Secondly I think within the argument we’re actually missing the essence of why Pelé was the greatest of all time - which is how complete he was as a player (resisting the temptation to drop in the Raees post ). As I mentioned before this obviously includes his workrate, physicality and mentality which is why he’ll contribute just as much (if not more) to winning control of possession than Messi will.

But this sort of contribution is just one component of many things that Pelé can provide, the primary one in this period the fact that he was an utterly ferocious goal scorer who hit 270 goals in 190 games (wiki estimates) and could devastate a back line with his pace, power and dribbling ability. The beauty of Pelé is that he’s so complete he can hurt you where you’re most vulnerable, which in this case is quite clearly floating around the second striker position (as he naturally would) and terrorise the opposition high-line. It’s the clearest route to a goal on the park, and for all the claims around whether having a premium passer like Zidane would somehow limit his influence (which I absolutely do not think it would), I think we’re missing that in this game specially the best use of him isn’t playmaking in midfield, but to terrorise Voronin and exploit a very risky Guardiola inspired high-line - this sort of explosive goal threat will always be the most dangerous aspect of Pelé’s game anyway, and the incisive passing of Zidane is a massive enabler here with his ability to slice through defences and release Pelé or Muller.

This video has some great examples of Pelé exploiting a high line and showcases the sort of movement and penetration which Zidane’s passing ability would exploit - less than two minutes long so well worth a watch.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

I think a back 5 is wasted against this team. A back 4 with Bergomi tucked in should be sufficient. The extra player in midfield would have been more useful than Sammer's runs.

As to Pele/Zidane, I have preferred if one was traded off for a wide forward who specializes in stretching the defense. I'm thinking someone like Boniek whose movement across both flanks with Pele playing #10 might be more dynamic.

Very thin margins either way!

 

[Synco]

To be honest I see that as a more seamless combination than De Bruyne and Messi. Given De Bruyne's more direct instincts in that central attacking midfield zone, I'm not sure how natural these dovetail with Messi's ball-demanding and tiki-taka based preferences.

Tbf, I did acknowledge something similar in the semis, when harms made a related point. (It was mainly about Messi on the right vs as false-9, but still. Also, that one sentence below was bolded in my reply, this here is about the whole post.)

What do you guys think of De Bruyne/Messi pairing? I actually think that right wing Messi may limit De Bruyne a bit, but it's probably few of Messi's latest ball-hogging years (which are still simply insane if we're talking about performance level) that obscure my judgment. With De Bruyne I'd like as much offensive width as possible — his influence rises in geometric progression with every additional target. False 9 Messi would've been ideal though.

Not that it won't work, of course, De Bruyne is smart and energetic enough to adapt to Messi's movement (and to move out wide when Messi moves centrally) — but I wanted to hear other people's opinion on this.

That was the idea. But I think it's fair to see KDB as being a bit more of a sideman here compared to calling the shots at City.

(Also interested in other people's opinions, of course.)

Then you have what I said further up our thread here:

there are also limits to the "not playing at his best" argument. Of course there can always be workable compromises.

So that's how I wanted to have my argument understood - not as some claim of incompability (which would indeed be silly), but that playing high profile players together may sometimes demand compromises. The KDB example to show that I've not been preaching water and drinking wine.

 

[harms]

De Bruyne is a fantastic fit for false-9 Messi. It’s not like Xavi & Iniesta is a necessary requirement for a false 9 set up.

Late-ish Messi forced for teams to be built around him (not that he didn’t play well enough to justify it), but a false 9 Messi would be a great fit in any false 9 set ups. The best ever fit to be precise.

 

[Gio]

Tbf, I did acknowledge something similar in the semis, when harms made a related point. (It was mainly about Messi on the right vs as false-9, but still. Also, that one sentence below was bolded in my reply, this here is about the whole post.)


Then you have what I said further up our thread here:

So that's how I wanted to have my argument understood - not as some claim of incompability (which would indeed be silly), but that playing high profile players together may sometimes demand compromises. The KDB example to show that I've not been preaching water and drinking wine.

De Bruyne is a fantastic fit for false-9 Messi. It’s not like Xavi & Iniesta is a necessary requirement for a false 9 set up.

Late-ish Messi forced for teams to be built around him (not that he didn’t play well enough to justify it), but a false 9 Messi would be a great fit in any false 9 set ups. The best ever fit to be precise.

It's more about putting it into context. There's been about 15 posts on the thread about the fit between Zidane and Pele. It's generated a disproportionate amount of air time, while, for the reasons I explained, De Bruyne and Messi are not necessarily natural bedfellows. I don't think either player combinations are necessarily issues, which was what I was getting at earlier when talking about the cleanness of both Synco's 4-3-3 and our 3-5-2.

 

[Synco]

I think the Xaviesta argument also misses that throughout the draft I took later interpretations of possession football as my inspiration, not 09-12 Barca. i.e. a possession game with a bit more emphasis on transition and directness. The player choices themselves demand that to a degree, Rijkaard vs Busquets as an obvious example. And I do think Messi fits that sub-style naturally as well.

 

[Gio]

Final comment from me. In a final like this, if you are swithering between the teams, it is perhaps worth remembering who turns up in the big finals. Who has the greatest track record in deciding the biggest games?

Well according to the Guardian - as shared by Harms - these are your top 50 up till 2013:
https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2013/feb/06/best-big-game-goalscorer-football-history

Rank	Player	County	Career	Goals	Points
1	Gerd Muller	Germany	1963-1981	16	51
2	Alfredo Di Stefano	Argentina	1945-1966	19	45
3	Pele	Brazil	1956-1977	13	40.5
4	Ferenc Puskas	Hungary	1943-1966	15	40
5	Zinedine Zidane	France	1988-2006	10	33
6	Ronaldo	Brazil	1993-2011	9	32
7	Alberto Spencer	Ecuador	1953-1972	13	27.5
8	Vava	Brazil	1949-1969	6	27
9	Mario Kempes	Argentina	1970-1996	6	24
10	Eusebio	Portugal	1957-1979	9	23

14

Paul Breitner

Germany

1970-1983

6

19.5

Of all the players in history, 3 of the top 5 form our front three here. Meanwhile, Breitner sits a cool 14th, the highest central midfielder on the list. If you want to decide a tight final then these serial-final-deciders are your men for the job.

 

[Oaencha]

Evening all. Two cracking teams there; kudos to both of you. It’s been a few years since I’ve voted for one of these. Going to have a proper read through of all the tactics and will then vote.

 

[Himannv]

I haven't voted yet because I don't know what to do here. 2 great teams. I'm leaning towards Synco due to personal taste but there are like zero mistakes in Gio's team and it's full of GOATs.

 

[Theon]

Congratulations @Synco !

Great team and pleasure to debate with you.

 

[harms]

It’s a draw?

 

[Theon]

It’s a draw?

Synco wins on keeper (higher ranked rule).

 

[Jim Beam]

Just couldn't vote for the same reasons as @Himannv.

Congrats to both... @Gio has a curse of Guardiola on his back in recent drafts it seems.

 

[Synco]

Congratulations @Synco !

Great team and pleasure to debate with you.

Cheers Theon, and good game to you & @Gio.

Honestly, I would never have thought there's anything in it for me here. I could understand if you guys feel hard done by - that team was abnormally strong, even if it was my job to try and make it a game somehow. But the competitive side of these match discussions isn't the part I enjoy the most, I must say.

Although there's one thing left to do...

 

[Synco]

"Lionel... we've made it!"

 

[Jim Beam]

"Lionel... we've made it!"

 

[Physiocrat]

"Lionel... we've made it!"

 

[Šjor Bepo]

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Congrats @Synco

 

[Synco]

Congrats @Synco

Thanks! It was actually the first draft in which I won any game. (AM'ing Physio aside.)

 

[2mufc0]

Congratulations @Synco a lot of thought put into the team building, well done.

Unlucky @Gio @Theon monster team.

 

[Physiocrat]

Thanks! It was actually the first draft in which I won any game. (AM'ing Physio aside.)

Yeah, but winning a game AMing for me is like winning two games. I only ever made the SFs once and that was with you as you made me slightly more flexible from my tactical intransigence.

 

[Synco]

Yeah, but winning a game AMing for me is like winning two games.

Seriously, that was quite a ride. We had a ridiculously long convo.

I only ever made the SFs once and that was with you as you made me slightly more flexible from my tactical intransigence.

The good thing about playing together is that both parties come up with ideas the other one would never have.

 

[Enigma_87]

What I liked the most about Synco's team, apart from the intelligent use of Voronin throughout is that Lahm finally gets some credit in an attacking role and no one seems to have questioned him in it. Something I recall being really underappreciated at in past drafts and mainly thought as a balanced RB at best.

as for G/T - class team as always with no weaknesses and quality all over.

 

[Synco]

What I liked the most about Synco's team, apart from the intelligent use of Voronin throughout is that Lahm finally gets some credit in an attacking role and no one seems to have questioned him in it. Something I recall being really underappreciated at in past drafts and mainly thought as a balanced RB at best.

True, there were hardly any comments on it, although not quite sure what that exactly says. But yes, he was a damn good player in the final third. More of an agile wide playmaker than a winger-like FB, but this is a great fit for a possession team.

His statistical end product wasn't too remarkable most seasons (19 assists in 12/13 though!), but he was such a useful player for attackers to play off. All in all, "balanced" sounds about right for me, as he was so complete - but a truly balanced FB must be a good attacking FB as well.