Both are composed, high-volume passing, high-accuracy, ball winning midfielders that shield the back four responsible for the "defensive safety" and spreading the ball around. If one is better at carrying, I don't think it means they're dissimilar.
Aurelien Tchouameni | signs new contract til 2031, to be official after the World Cup
- Thread starter Tom Van Persie
- Start date
-
In the latest edition of the United Hour Podcast, Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) discuss the absolute VAR shambles that lead to us losing the Manchester Derby.
But is it all on the VAR room? How much blame can be placed on Carrick and the players?
They also preview the 2 matches before the International Break and update on the struggles at MUWomen.
If that's the case, every number 6 is similar.
They start in the same position, but Tchouameni is more disciplined positionally while Caicedo leaves his spot to proactively win the ball all over the pitch.
Straight away, that’s a 0:1 and if you make a thread, I would actually be curious to see who concurs they are anything alike.
@Jim Beam knows his football and likely didn’t entertain a response because the comparison is not one to even get off the ground, imo.
Caicedo has never been gunshy, either. In fact, he’ll stand on his overzealous mistakes.
Are you being for real?
I can understand that you don't think they're of the same quality but suggesting they're not anything alike? Come on.
Not even going to bother with the mockingly second paragraph. Not going anywhere with this any way so I'll just call it ends here.
They're nothing alike and you'd have to be basing it off highlight videos or limited stats to think so. People watch a highlight video where a player does something impressive and they assume that happens every game.
Tchouameni is an anchor/water carrier, Caicedo is an all rounder who presses, carries, plays balls into the final line. Their entire on the ball style is completely different as is the pace they play the game.
Tchouameni is an anchor/water carrier, Caicedo is an all rounder who presses, carries, plays balls into the final line. Their entire on the ball style is completely different as is the pace they play the game.
You don’t need to take my word for it. I am just saying it’s a comparison likely only you see.
Happy people have finally opened their eyes to him. Yes, it was a tough game for everyone. Yes, he has actually had a decent tournament. But this is typical Tchouameni. A glorified 3rd CB, not positionally astute, limited with his passing that we would be foolish to sign at the prices and salary quoted.
I don't fully get what water carrier means. I thought Caicedo is more of a water carrier than Tchouameni, but in a good way that he is excellent at helping in all the aspects of football without being exceptional in any of them. Very easy to accomodate in the team as well, like Declan Rice fits any style as the "more defensive" midfielder (not being a pure DM himself).
Tchouameni is just a very deep positioned Defensive Midfielder who shields the backline and wins headers. It's of course not all that he does, but he is a specific player that you probably need to accomodate for in 3 man midfield.
Going from prime Pogba and Kante to Rabiot or Kone and Tchouameni is the midfield equivalent of going from Cristiano Ronaldo and Tevez to Antonio Valencia and Michael Owen in 2009.
Having SAF between 2009 and 2013 softened that blow for United and having Griezmann playing at an absolute elite level as an actual third midfielder as opposed to Olise softened that blow for France in 2022, but at some point the chickens had to come home to roost, and that’s what happened yesterday, France were played off the park.
Having said that, Tchouameni has excellent attributes and I wouldn’t be surprised if Mourinho (even the past his best version) will get the best out of him in a Real Madrid shirt.
Oddly enough, or not, Mikel was one of the few midfielders on the planet that knew how to play against Busquets - Xavi - Iniesta - Messi.
We would’ve had a much better chance beating Barca in 2009 with him in the team instead of Anderson or even Carrick.
So you’d think he would have done alright against that Spanish midfield yesterday.
Mikel was a pretty pointless player for a team that was on the front foot during most of their league season and trying to break low blocks down, but he was Chelsea’s best player against a Barca or a Bayern.
Last edited:
Man I'd love if we had him. Such a shame we fecked it up when we could've signed him years ago under Ole.
Well Deschamps himself was known as the water carrier. It's not necessarily an insult just a description of a player who does the hard work but is risk averse and passively gives it to others to progress. The bad side of it is a Cleverly for United where they do nothing but safe sideways passes.
Caicedo takes on a bit more risk, he's further up the pitch and is willing to dribble aggressively. He more proactively helps his team in the attacking phases even if he's not the star. Conversely to Tchouameni his style isn't so risky averse that it slows down the teams attacks.
i still think Caicedo is more of a water carrier than Tchouameni, as the work that Caicedo does all over the pitch helps his team mates a lot to focus on their specific tasks (defending/attacking). By the way, polish name for "central midfielder" is "pomocnik", what directly translates to "helper" - I find that interesting in context of this conversation. Also in that light, Tchouameni is more of a defender than "helper" (like Caicedo).
Comparing him Caicedo just seems insulting to Caicedo.
He was probably using us to get a new deal anyway, not actively looking for a way out. He would have been a good addition, but not at a price that would allow Madrid to rebuild their midfield. His partner, though, my God... Imagine how close we came to actually signing him. Someone send his mother a Balthazar.
I'd agree with this assessment. I'm not sure if either of them really fit the "water carrier" label perfectly but Caicedo definitely fits it far more so than Tchouameni does in my view.
@Trigestis apologies mate, I'm as pro-Tchouameni as anybody but I am gonna have to agree with the crowd here that I don't think Caicedo is quite the same sort of player. If I were to compare him to a Premier League midfielder, I'd say he's more like a better version of Amadou Onana or indeed Carlos Baleba. That is in no way a slight on him; paired with more aggressive players on the ball I think that's an extremely valuable midfielder to have.
It's almost certainly going to be irrelevant anyway - very much looks that he's penning a new deal at Madrid which means we won't be getting him without paying an obscene fee/wage.
I hope this game opened INEOS' eyes about him, because I worry that we are seriously interested in him and that they're willing to spend 100 million for him.
He's the most overrated player on the planet, and you could get someone similar from some French/Italian league for 30 million (or just buy back Lindelof).
He's the most overrated player on the planet, and you could get someone similar from some French/Italian league for 30 million (or just buy back Lindelof).
For me he’s just a classic Woodward era signing. Buying for the name and who he plays for, instead of what he actually bring on the pitch and how he’d fit.
Onana might be a good shout (not the same level, but player profile). Baleba, I am not sure. From what I've seen (even when we played against Brighton end of last season) he was actively pushing the game forward, and is known to be a good ball carrier through midfield. Also his excellent recovery speed means he can play a bit further up the pitch in midfield duo and actually press from the front, while I am not convinced about how "fast" is Tchouameni and if he can chase from behind. Passing is definitely better for AT imo.
You literally asked for which player you should compare him to, and then you ask me why I put Caicedo in the debate?
"Not interested in proof that goes against my own opinion!"
Ok, I really wished this is some wum as it would make it a lot easier. You are claiming he is one of the best DM in the world while at the same time saying how can hr be comparable to Rodri who is Ballon d'Or level of player. But at the man demands fee and wages that should be paid only for the absolute elite level players (and the ones who should be in Ballon d'Or mention or at keat be there with some votes. You claim he is an elite player but it is unfair to compare him to the very best. Not only it doesnt make sense you are pretty much saying he isnt worth such outlay.
Ok, lets compare him to Caicedo you say⁶. A player that would majority took ahead of him, so he falls short there as well. Also, ptetty muvh very different players for all the reasons why most would took Caicedo... Caicedo is far more energetic press resistant while the other is pretty much some kind of old school DM. Caicedo can have bad games but I never hrard critics saying game passed him by as it is often the most used critic for the other. They plaxed the position differently with a fuly distinctivet style. One an energetic bunny and the othen much slower and far more stuck to his position. Caicedo is also far more suited to high press playing style.
What did you prove exactly. Aside from being all over the place?
Unless he or Camavinga want to come, just give up and go after other targets. Don't chase Real Madrid player for a whole summer and end up with nothing.
Honestly, beyond the quality on the ball, this match was a perfect highlight of what I mean when I talk about transformative defensive players
Tchouameni did his job, and did it fairly well, and it didn't alter anything of Spain's approach
Meanwhile, Olise and Dembele spent the entire match actively running away from Rodri
I come across as hating the player in here because he is not a good fit for us, imo. But you can see what kind of set up he’d be in his element in. Amorim would have loved him and he makes sense in the kind of set-ups that streamline his role and don’t ask much else of him, but his impact in an open midfield battle is just not enough for the costs involved. Half the price and yeah, but marquee money for what he provides… he would have to be transformative at it, era-defining, and he obviously isn’t close to that.
Don’t want my midfield to be consummately schooled by another with my guy looking like a passenger whilst the other is giving a performance for the ages.
But surely you saw that Spain's midfielders were constantly being helped out by the players around them - Baena, Olmo, Yamal, Porro, Cucurella, etc. That's a key tenet of them to create overloads. It was the absolute polar opposite with France. All the attackers were swanning around, the distances between players was far too big and the intensity to get close to their opposite man was nowhere to be seen. The Porro goal summed it up really. I still think Tchouameni showed the things a good team needs, to a high level, but it was in overall team failure in performance. He's not the most expansive passer, but provided your team gives you options, it will raise that level of your game.
I think costs are too prohibitive for the kind of player that he is. Hope the club is smart enough to walk away from this even if the player is being offered to us.
This perfectly captures my feelings on why some of the posts here yesterday were so bizarre.
I do understand the point that Tchouameni's less expansive passing hurt France on the ball yesterday but it's equally true that the French front four's complete refusal to do any defensive work made life very difficult for the midfield.
Yesterday was a setup issue for France rather than an issue of personnel. I'd genuinely go as far as saying you could put Rodri in Tchouameni's place in that France team yesterday and he would not have looked great. Any deeper midfielder is going to suffer against a side as well-drilled as Spain are when they have four players in front of them who refuse to engage them.
Very true, and it wasn’t just the midfielders.
Spain played like a proper team, one player made a bad pass or a had a poor touch, immediately 2 of his team mates were there to cover for him, very difficult to play against that sort of cohesion, for anyone.
This thread can be summed up as people happy with a player who can be good enough in the right setup vs people who want a world class superstar who can transform your team
I think that's a fair assessment.
My issue with the latter position from the context of United is that I don't think there is a "world class superstar" who we'd be able to sign in midfield. Bruno Guimaraes maybe but that's about it, and it's not like we'd be getting a free run at him.
Again, almost certainly irrelevant now anyway because Tchouameni is very much going to be in the bucket of "midfielders we aren't able to sign" soon enough
Of course, but the focus isn’t the rest as we’re not linked to them, and your #6 is supposed to be the organiser in chief as it’s a cornerstone of the role. I’ve made more than one extensive post in here about what an elite #6 is supposed to bring to the table.
Tchouameni was mostly a bystander, not someone taking command or really covering the breadth of his own role let alone anything going on around him and for top, top dollar, you want those things to be intrinsic, well I do, anyway.
I don’t think any player needs excuses made for them outside of injury or return from injury - people should know and understand what they’re looking at and what is and isn’t outside a remit.
Surprised this thread is still going. Isn't he staying in Madrid?
And people who dont want him along with the set up in which he could be good enpugh
Its now a Caicedo = Tchouameni thread
That's fair, but I think anyone would struggle to take control of a team who couldn't be arsed yesterday to do the basic stuff right. That's not to say Tchouameni is the profile you want, because I don't think he is.
That is also fair on the top, top dollar point. I think we're always going to have to overpay to bring top level profiles to our club as it stands. He will be lacking in some traits, but I think as a group, his top traits could raise the team significantly. Remember we're talking about a team who came 3rd with a very dysfunctional midfield.
True, I just think he has a lot going against him yesterday - back from injury, team performance, etc. I wouldn't judge Kone on yesterday either. Maybe I'm giving them too much grace as I want us to bring in a top level midfielder.
I don't think we'd be willing to pay what it would take to get such a midfielder if they were available either. Players like that will come with a big premium and I do think it's a valid point from @Fortitude that Tchoumanei doesn't really deserve that premium. That being said, I think here are few established options we will be able to obtain, so I see why we might be willing to pay it. As you say though, could be irrelevant.I think that's a fair assessment.
My issue with the latter position from the context of United is that I don't think there is a "world class superstar" who we'd be able to sign in midfield. Bruno Guimaraes maybe but that's about it, and it's not like we'd be getting a free run at him.
Again, almost certainly irrelevant now anyway because Tchouameni is very much going to be in the bucket of "midfielders we aren't able to sign" soon enough
Kone isn’t going to get the same kind of flack because he’s considered a lower class of player, who would cost considerably less to acquire and would be on likely a third of the wage. Kone not performing is in line with what he’s classed as. On the other hand, Tchouameni is supposed to be elite and marquee and that comes with a whole other level of demands and expectations.
Coming back from injury and not being sharp is the better, fairer excuse, if one is to be used.
Saying we shouldn't be in for him because he isn't as good as Rodri is bizarre, yes. Caicedo isn't anywhere near Rodri, but Chelsea fans aren't upset about that. I compared them because their role is to break up play and advance the ball to other advanced playmakers. If one chooses to press more than the other doesn't make him a much better player. And if that's what we needed, we could just look to upgrade on Ugarte.
I believe we need someone that shields the defense and breaks up play so he can advance it to Tielemans or Bruno. Tchouameni is the type of player that allows these playmakers to flourish without them thinking about all the defensive work because he can do a lot of it on his own. Tchouameni is top for line breaking passes and progresses the ball very good through passing. One or two games of you not seeing that doesn't change that. He doesn't need to dictate from deep with long range passes like he is Pirlo (where does this even come from, and who is that player available?). He is elite defensively and progresses it brilliantly. If you don't think he is worth the wages or fee, then that's fine and another matter, but let's not forget what Tonali went for and his salary. So about those wages reserved for elite player, what happened to that? Plenty of no-elite players earn more than the best ones, and always have.
And where does this notion that Tchouameni isn't press resistant come from? He is incredibly press resistant and almost makes no errors while still maintaining top progression through passing.
Last edited:
It's also about value for money. People will accept the former for a reasonably low fee but if you will pay top dollar people expect the latter.
I still think this will be revisited.
Madrid will sign Rodri then move him on.
Madrid will sign Rodri then move him on.
No chance when he has signed this new deal
The scenes when we announce Rodri on a free