Progressive passes and forward passes are different stats. Progressive passes have a minimum distance and must actively ‘break a line’.
Aurelien Tchouameni | signs new contract til 2031, to be official after the World Cup
- Thread starter Tom Van Persie
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I'd answer this question by saying that, in my opinion, you are quite considerably understating his value defensively by saying he's "decent". I don't think there are very many midfielders who are better from a defensive standpoint.
I'd agree that his passing is solid but not spectacular, and certainly anyone expecting him to fill the shoes of Kroos or Modric would end up sorely disappointed. That said, if you want a midfielder who could facilitate a more expansive set of technical players in midfield, for my money you're unlikely to find a better option who even might be available this summer than Tchouameni.
Not sure what do you mean by "for my money", but Baleba certainly would be available for less money (fee, but would probably accept half the salary), and actually provides similar defensive cover to Tchouameni, worse in aerial duels but superior in ground coverage. Passing is a weakness for both of them but Baleba at least can run with the ball forward.
I doubt we are in for either of them since we seem to be going for more all-round #8s to partner Mainoo (which I think is fair), but I really doubt Tchouameni is the best value out there - he would cost a bomb.
People have been stating their reservations about him from way before the WC. Just look through the thread.
I think he’d be good at the base of a three-man midfield where he can just pass off to the other two CMs (or the CBs). In a two-man midfield? Not sure it will end well, especially if paired with Mainoo who isn’t the most progressive of passers yet. I’m not even sure if it’s an ability thing, or more just his mentality/style. Maybe that could change.
I’ve only watched full games from him here and there over the past few years. For anyone that’s watched him a decent amount, what do you reckon his best match performance is? Maybe I’ve forgotten/have never caught him at his very best.
I think he’d be good at the base of a three-man midfield where he can just pass off to the other two CMs (or the CBs). In a two-man midfield? Not sure it will end well, especially if paired with Mainoo who isn’t the most progressive of passers yet. I’m not even sure if it’s an ability thing, or more just his mentality/style. Maybe that could change.
I’ve only watched full games from him here and there over the past few years. For anyone that’s watched him a decent amount, what do you reckon his best match performance is? Maybe I’ve forgotten/have never caught him at his very best.
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I don't agree that Baleba is on the same level as Tchouameni defensively. He's much more mobile but I think he lacks Tchouameni's positional discipline. Funnily enough, I'd say the same thing about the other midfielders we've been linked with this summer as well.
I also think passing is far, far more of a weakness for Baleba than it is for Tchouameni. Tchouameni is fairly safe, some might argue too safe, with his passing. Baleba I'd argue strays into being careless with his at times.
I agree with this assessment. But you have to consider the money, age, potential of both players and IMO Tchouameni isn't that much better in the final equation (INEOS seems to value EPL experience quite a lot too). And Baleba is just an example, I am sure our "scouts" are doing the same excersise with all the potential options. In the end I highly doubt Tchouameni is worth pursuing for the mentioned money.
This is my opinion.. for the price in wages.. I would actually rather Baleba due to him being a better/keener carrier of the football.
I do agree with the assessment but Baleba also has a lot more minutes ahead of him to improve his positional play. His passing I’ve never been worried about like most. Sometimes stats are just a display of confidence.
I think yours and @Uncle Mainoo's comments are both absolutely fair!
One of my biggest reservations about Tchouameni is that his wage demands are likely to be vast. If we could get the fee to be £70-80 million then I'm absolutely taking it but only if the wages are not then going to be £300k+ per week.
so either Alex Scott or Bouaddi are better options along with Mateus in long run?
Can we say its a good window if we get Baleba and Mateus
He's not a defensive monster like a Casemiro or Kante, which is imo the level you need to be at if you don't offer much in possession
Anyways, sign him please. He's the most frustrating player I've ever seen in Madrid, even of he'd actually been great for us - which he hasn't been - i'd still want him gone just for peace of mind
I can't deal with anymore of this big bastard treat the ball like McFred then every once in a while go "actually i'm gonna play some football here" and start pulling off the kind of passes Kroos and Modric would aspire to
I don't know if he's a 250k / week player though. That's one thing. The second, if he doesn't develop/land well here he becomes another immovable object (will be hard to sell). I really, really doubt INEOS will take that risk.
Exactly. Slagging Baleba for his on the ball/passing ability is why I think most of the Cafe would be disappointed with Tchoumeni, who isn't far off him in that regard. And Baleba I see as more all round player than AT (worse defensively though).
Was gutted when he went to you; thought you would get an enhanced Monaco edition. Instead, he seemed to lose his nerve and become something disappointing given the immense potential he once had.He's not a defensive monster like a Casemiro or Kante, which is imo the level you need to be at if you don't offer much in possession
Anyways, sign him please. He's the most frustrating player I've ever seen in Madrid, even of he'd actually been great for us - which he hasn't been - i'd still want him gone just for peace of mind
I can't deal with anymore of this big bastard treat the ball like McFred then every once in a while go "actually i'm gonna play some football here" and start pulling off the kind of passes Kroos and Modric would aspire to
I mean you've probably named two of the best defensive midfielders to ever grace the game; exceedingly few players are "defensive monsters" when compared to Casemiro or Kante at their peak. Certainly nobody available to us.He's not a defensive monster like a Casemiro or Kante, which is imo the level you need to be at if you don't offer much in possession
Anyways, sign him please. He's the most frustrating player I've ever seen in Madrid, even of he'd actually been great for us - which he hasn't been - i'd still want him gone just for peace of mind
I can't deal with anymore of this big bastard treat the ball like McFred then every once in a while go "actually i'm gonna play some football here" and start pulling off the kind of passes Kroos and Modric would aspire to
In my view, he's a fantastic defensive midfielder who's solid but unspectacular on the ball. I can quite see why that profile isn't massively appealing to Real Madrid, especially given that you don't really have an absolute world beating creative player who can somewhat make up for it. For present-day United, I'd consider that profile very valuable since we have a player who is pound-for-pound one of the best creative players in world football.
It's not a popular opinion round here but I just don't think our midfielders all need to be absolute 10/10 passers of the ball. If we sign Mateus Fernandes and with Bruno in front of them, I think you can afford to have someone who is just OK at passing if they're really good as a midfield anchor.
he started great, then went to the WC, missed the penalty in the final, came back with an injury and basically never recovered to that initial level
This last season he was very good under Xabi, but as I said - he's not good enough defensively to justify how ineffectual he is in possession. Really think at club level at least he might just be better off as a CB in a back 3
Do you want us to remain stuck in the ages of not being able to control a game or be the controlled aggressor? A midfield that can effortlessly move the ball along should be paramount instead of a desperation and reliance on Bruno getting on the ball and being forced to do something with it because nobody else can.
Was campaigning for him the season he went to you, but with how he turned out, it’s been whatever. I don’t see him turning it round at the age he is.
I want us to sign the necessary midfield reinforcements, which in literally all cases will involve some degree of compromise.
I think Tchouameni is good enough on the ball that, paired with Mateus Fernandes with Bruno in front, we're probably going to be able to control most matches anyway whilst also having a level of defensive solidity in the midfield.
I find it weird that you guys are acting like Tchouameni is some Ugarte-tier player on the ball when there's just no evidence to suggest that. He's not a fantastic progressive passer but I think it's daft to suggest that you just wouldn't be able to control a football match with him in your midfield.
Very odd. He’s a top quality player. Really surprised to see fans turning their noses up at him.
Your #6 is a vital component in midfield control as it is he that sets the tone and provides the platform for the others to perform from.
Vitinha currently exhibits this; pre-injury Rodri exemplified it; Busquets, Casemiro, Carrick, De Jong. You can name pretty much all of the great teams of the last 20years and see an extremely pivotal #6 pulling strings with consummate ease. People coo about Martinez hitting from defence yet seem to have a blind spot when it comes to midfield where it’s far more important and superfluous. If your #6 cannot progress the ball quickly and efficiently, you have a bottleneck and others having to abandon their own duties to do his job for him.
Are there not many examples of teams where a different profile of midfielder at the base of midfield were very successful, though?
You’ve had teams get by; Arsenal this season, for example, but to exhibit that proper level of midfield control and dominance, I don’t think you see it often. Even “heavy metal” Klopp era Liverpool had Henderson effortlessly spraying forward passes from the base of midfield (#6).
I’d say if you’re looking for midfielders, the ability to progress the ball succinctly for the position is paramount - why would you actively handicap yourself in an open market where the choice is all yours? Madrid bought Tchouameni because he looked like the next great #6 at Monaco; if we were seeking that version this thread would be as positive as the Vidal or De Jong ones were.
But again, this massively begs the question of who even might be available to us who is on the level of Rodri, Busquets, Casemiro, Carrick, or De Jong?
From the perspective of passing ability, Anderson is the obvious choice but then I don't think he yet stacks up to any of those guys as far as positional discipline is concerned (with the potential exception of FDJ). He also presents the far more pertinent problem of very obviously wanting to join City instead of us.
This goes back to my point about compromise. We absolutely can't just not sign anyone for the midfield. To my mind, even if Mateus Fernandes does join the midfield is still too light because you're potentially an injury away from needing to play Ugarte again. If there were a midfielder available who was as good as any of the options above then I'd agree we should be well in for them. I am still yet to see someone actually tell me who that player might be, though.
Is Henderson really a better passer of the ball than Tchouameni? His long passing wasn’t great at all, from what I remember.
Maybe I’m wrong, but I always thought it was Fabinho that was playing that roll for Liverpool, anyway.
But 1. it was in Serie A and 2. his strengths shine more as a defensive minded 8 or box-to-box. He is not sitting deep, not tall enough to win aerial duels and who covers when he bursts forward? I believe we need a 6 like Tchouameni or whoever.
Would you feel the same about Camavinga on a loan with option to buy basis as this guy then?
So seeing as this guy doesn't make enough progressive passes for many people's liking then who should be targeted as that third midfielder then. I don't want to hear that BS about its not my job either. Seeing as Anderson is off the table I really can't think of anyone else whatsoever
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You’re talking about a marquee signing that would cost an absolute fortune. Do you expect to make compromises with marquee signings? If the answer to that is yes, why would you shoot yourself in the foot like that? Tchouameni is not some cheap throwaway - you go through with it, you have an extremely expensive player who doesn’t complete the briefs of the role whom you’re then going to have to accommodate him and his shortcomings for absolutely no reason.
At that level of expense, players are supposed to complete you not add more problems or things you instantly need workarounds for.
Tchouameni doesn’t have the mentality of using the ball directly and progressively despite actually being a very good passer. Henderson had no such hesitancy and constantly set Liverpool on their way in the blink of an eye. Fabinho played the role; Liverpool had no issues with ball progression through midfield because they had players there who had no fear of using the ball. Whatever Tchouameni’s issue became, he doesn’t consistently use the ball in the way he should, or better to say, like a good/great #6 does.
OK I understand that so who should we sign in that six role who has the progressive passing ability too. You must have some realistic targets in mind so would like to hear who they are. Maybe then I could at least understand where everyone else is coming from a bit.
He's now been written off like Ederson and Summerville which makes me a bit worried where to go now
That's fine and has no bearing on what the club is actually doing in the market though
, Vivell and Wilcox have their own list unrelated to fan sentiment.Also in my experience, beware of whenever the Caf are unanimously in support of a player/target...
It seemingly always ends in tears when there's a consensus
We've got a habit of turning our noses at good players then whining about our recruitment when they do bits elsewhere
Senegal were much more compact and stronger as an opponent than Algeria were. Camara, Gana Gueye, and Pape Gueye is a tough midfield 3 to break through. Algeria's midfield left wide open spaces.
Which 6 would you rather, who supposedly isn't so passive with the ball?
Yea people act like they played a minnow
, Senegal are African champions (I couldn't care less about a press release) and played very well in the first half but France's quality still took over in the 2nd half.I have no idea who is possibly good enough by some standards now. Seems to be a unicorn.
I remember Bruno branded as a desperate 'Spurs reject' signing when we signed him
That's why I don't get hung up at all over disagreements in the transfer forum, it's normal
I reckon we would have had posters complaining if we had signed Kante back in the day. I prefer to wait and see.I remember Bruno branded as a desperate 'Spurs reject' signing when we signed him
That's why I don't get hung up at all over disagreements in the transfer forum
Yeah personally I would be ecstatic if we signed this guy, just don't see him wanting to leave Real unfortunately
Him and Kobbie would be very limited in midfield, not sure he'd be worth it.
OK so who should be signing then?