Based on those alone, Rice would be first choice
Aurelien Tchouameni / Signs for Madrid
- Thread starter Adam-Utd
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First choice in what style of play and in what kind of set up?
Guess a lot depends on how the season goes on. Tchoameni isn't really known for his passes, fbref confirms that. But the scouting profile there is based on the last 365 days instead of only this season. Also since when is Rice known to be a ball carrier?
Fair point, context is everything
I was just thinking that if I needed a DM who has a good range of skills
Since this season
Yeah, just seen. His fbref starts to reflect that now as well. At least a little bit (82th percentile currently). Almost surprising that Moyes allows that in his system. Considering Rice is partnered with Souczek, whom I never really rated all that much defensively.
I think it more on his self determination to prove people wrong, that he’s got more to his game. The criticism he got during the summer tournament hit home I think
I agree with you mate and I like both players. Was just curious to hear your thoughts.
Tbh honest with you GB, it doesn't really matter how good a DMs passing range is as long as he can keep it simple and the composition of the midfield is geared towards transitioning play to a high level. Look at Ajax and their DM Alvarez, he isn't the best on the ball but next to a accomplished ball player in midfield, CB, fullback he does his job to balance things out.
True, I was just responding to why rice is improving this season. Think he’s keen to show that he’s capable other roles and other skills
The only thing, that prevents me from entering the hype is the price... I mean, obviously you have to pay for quality. But Rice strikes me as someone like Maguire, somebody who might be weighted down by a hefty transfer sum. Any opinion about that?
(If you are right and he is turning up the heat to showcase his skills then kudos to him)
Yeah I think 100m is a bit much for anyone. I wouldn’t pay that. Im just curious what their real number is where they start to get sweaty palms?
From watching the Lille and Monaco match I dont think he'd have made a big difference today to be honest. An upgrade on Fred and McTominay in terms of winning the ball for sure, but he wouldnt have improved our troubles with the ball. He and Monaco were 2 down at half time themselves and he had very little impact. 2nd half all of Monaco played much better, he did his part for the team but honestly his CM partner Fofana had a bigger impact as well as Diatta
Pretty sure Rice would have dominated that game
Pretty sure Rice would have dominated that game
Good question... I guess, they would get very tempted by anything over 70, don't you think? I mean, I don't know much about Westham, are they some sort of loaded? Not really right... I don't know, I am pretty sure, Westham is the team flying high this time, back then it was Leicester, but as soon as there some sort of international hokey pokey during the week, these teams just fade away. I'd buy Rice for 50, maybe 55 but more than that, no please Chelsea do you your thing, shouldn't always be us to get fleeced for english players. Shaw, AWB, Maguire, it is a proud tradition but we should share the fun...
I think maybe 60 & Lingard (valued around 10-12) would have done the trick in the summer. Don’t know about now. Probably missed our chance
Yes on the other hand, in the summer we didn't know about his additional skillset he is showcasing now
nice follow up. I'd definitely look elsewhere, be that Tchouameni, be that this Caqueret guy or the kid at Sporting. I am sure there are quite a few players who could help us tremendously. But first things first: identify the way we want to play the game with and without the ball. That should dictate who we go for just as much as availability and prices.I like him but worry he will choose to go somewhere like Chelsea unless Utd can secure Zidane or maybe Ten Hag. Could imagine he would love to work for a French football legend or a potentially future elite manager.
If we do get Ten Hag then surely we’re in with a shout of getting Ryan Gravenberch I would have assumed. What are people’s thoughts on comparing the two?
Blind and Timber are maestros on the ball compared to AWB and Maguire. Even Varane always had Ramos next to him taking most of the responsibility in the build up. With our players I think a deep lying playmaker is a much better fit than a destroyer like Alvarez.
Gravenberch last good game was in the supercup at the start of the season. Kid lacks pashun and a brain, but makes for nice highlights with his talent. He has a long way to go and besides he's not really a DM, he plays in the pivot on paper but Ajax attack in a 3-1-5-1 setup where Gravenberch is usually one of the 5 and Alvarez is the no 6.
A deep lying play maker doesn't necessarily have to be the deepest #6, and can easily be the second #6 in the two or 3 man midfield.
In the build up phase the second #6 Is also in a deep lying position to help progress play. We have internal options in that regard with Hannibal Mejbri, Ethan Galbraith etc to external options like Frenkie de Jong, Maxence Caqueret etc who are all players who are showing the ability to either develop into the midfield conduit or are established in that regard. We also have the option of Ethan Laird over AWB along with various external options.
No he doesn't have to be, but if most of your defenders don't excel in the build up it sure helps if they have Pirlo right in front of their noses..
If our next DM isn't good on the ball, but more of a destroyer type (say Ndidi) how will it be different from our poor build up with our current defenders + McT as DM?
Our only DM is Matic, who can't play twice a week consistently, let alone maintain a high level for more than 70min. We need a starting XI DM right now. That excludes someone like Hannibal who hasn't play at a high level ever, let alone in that role. He'd need to be developed and I don't see a DM in him as much as b2b player. I rate Galbraith, he'd be a good option to replace Matic, maybe after a year on loan at a higher level than league one.
DM is the priority and I think RB, GK, CB are higher priorities than another midfielder. Fred Donny or Bruno are decent midfield options. Not sure I can say the same of Dalot, AWB, Maguire, DDG in their respective roles.
I like Laird, but both Dalot and AWB aren't good enough.
For me yesterday with Van De Beek I saw exactly why I want Rice over Tchouameni.
Van De Beek's best performance has come when he played with Matic. This is the same with Pogba, best performances with Matic.
These creative players need a CDM that can defensively stay deep and hold their position.
I see this with Rice, with his ability to stay deep and provide stability to West Ham's defence aswell as the players in front. We see Soucek going all the way to the other side of the pitch most of the game.
That's what I saw with VDB yesterday- a CM that was on the other end of the pitch.
Tchouameni is more a defensively capable CM to me, the player we should target to improve on Fred. We see this for example with his through ball numbers being better than Rice's - however watching Tchouameni, you see him up and dkwn the pitch, a bit like Fred; a player that can get attracted to following the ball.
Rice is different, he is analysing the players both his own team mates and the opposition attackers - seeing which place he should be, giving the protection to his defenders and the freedom to his attackers.
Pogba and VDB for me needs a replacement for the CDM version of Matic - Tchouameni doesn't play like Matic to me.
Van De Beek's best performance has come when he played with Matic. This is the same with Pogba, best performances with Matic.
These creative players need a CDM that can defensively stay deep and hold their position.
I see this with Rice, with his ability to stay deep and provide stability to West Ham's defence aswell as the players in front. We see Soucek going all the way to the other side of the pitch most of the game.
That's what I saw with VDB yesterday- a CM that was on the other end of the pitch.
Tchouameni is more a defensively capable CM to me, the player we should target to improve on Fred. We see this for example with his through ball numbers being better than Rice's - however watching Tchouameni, you see him up and dkwn the pitch, a bit like Fred; a player that can get attracted to following the ball.
Rice is different, he is analysing the players both his own team mates and the opposition attackers - seeing which place he should be, giving the protection to his defenders and the freedom to his attackers.
Pogba and VDB for me needs a replacement for the CDM version of Matic - Tchouameni doesn't play like Matic to me.
Every player needs to be good on the ball but not every player needs to have a expansive passing game to play in midfield. In the game today, it's about creating a midfield which has balance. Having Pirlo in front of them will just make life more difficult for Pirlo, because the high pressing teams will step into his space and render him obsolete if there's a collective build up issue at CB/fullback.
I never said i wanted a DM that 'wasn't good on the ball' but rather I said it's not important/necessary to have a DM with a expansive passing game, as long as the collective is geared (coached) towards progressing play. A potential midfield of Rice/Tchouameni alongside a midfielder who can operate to a high level as the #6/#8 both in offensive/defensive transition is what is required imo. And that is a profile of player we don't have in our first team along with the most defensive minded midfielder.
I think with a higher level of coaching the build up would improve by default. Then you have internal options already at the club that might have the potential to step up to the plate or there's external options that could also be bought to the club to improve things further. Madrid with their midfield 3 of Casemiro DM, along with Modric and Kroos is the template I'd like to see us try and replicate.
That's not what happened when Pirlo played in front of Chiellini and Bonucci. He made life easy for them. They could just pass into him nearly every time even if there's an oppo player breathing in his neck because he's just that skilled on the ball.
Balance in midfield is important, but again, if your CBs are Maguire and Varane the midfielder closest to them must be someone that can really play if you want be dominant in build up.
I mean, you mentioned the best midfield in the world. Of course I'd want that too. Also they have Alaba at the back now, maybe the best ball playing CB in the world? And they had Ramos before that, and it's not a coincidence all of Varane's good games for RM he played next to Ramos.
You're saying Rice and Tchouameni would be great next to a #6/#8. But again, we don't have that #6/#8 they would be great alongside of.
If you're saying buying 2 midfielders makes for a better squad than buying 1, I don't disagree with you. But Fred does well enough for Brasil playing with Casemiro, Donny did well enough as an 8 for both Ajax and Holland playing with De Jong. We have good options for that positions, but we don't have a #6. So let's get that #6 first.
When Pirlo played in front of the Juve CBs, the pressures high up the pitch weren't close to what we see now when it comes to intensity. So it's wise to build up in a simple and efficient way rather than become victim of intense high presssure close to your own goal imo.
Varane and Maguire I feel we should judge once we have a high calibre head coach. Because like I said in my previous post, the build up will improve by default with a capable head coach.
I've always said we need the #6/8 more than a DM in our current predicament tbf. But I believe we need a more defensive minded player in midfield as well. Fred isn't that player if we want to transition into a more expansive, fluid team going forward. And neither is McTominay imo.
Brazil fans that I've come across twitter have been complaining about their NT playing overly defensive football. And looking at the composition of their midfield it's not a surprise Tite is sacrificing attacking verve for defensive stability. But if you replace Fred with Verratti or Frenkie de Jong as the midfield conduits, then the whole dynamic changes. But that would require a shift of mindset from a head coach imo.
Varane is in his prime and has been world class. Shaw has been world class too IMO.
AWB has less technical ability than Erik Pieters from Stoke. No amount of coaching make a 23y old with a crap attitude a better passer.
DDG can't do the basics of his position right, and he's 31 He's never going to learn how to collect a cross a properly and he's had multiple coaches over the years, so the coaching excuse doesn't fly with him, especially when one of his coaches was Frans Hoek.
Maguire is supposedly in his prime but he's bang average on the ball and he's also slow. He's no better than Lindelof or Bailly. He's not XI material. Would he accept being a squad player? We know Lindelof and Bailly do. Maguire is English and starts for England, he's more valuable. Selling him is a no brainer.
McTominay is championship level and shouldn't start a game for us ever again unless there's an injury crisis.
We need better footballers at the back, and it starts with replacing AWB (and Dalot), Maguire, DDG and a DM we need to buy anyway.
I disagree with you on Fred. I think he does reasonably well putting in a defensive shift and linking up the attack and defense. He's a better version of Gravenberch. Even if we don't deem Fred good enough, there's more important areas we need to work on and we can also try Donny in his position.
I agree with you about De Gea and AWB and they could easily be replaced imo. Ethan Laird is a option at RB. which i've mentioned before. De Gea will also have only one year left on his contract after this season, so it wouldn't be as difficult to shift him as it was before. I don't see it as a big issue for a prospective new head coach if he chooses to shift the aforementioned.
The team below is potentially realistic and has the capacity to build play from the back to a good level under a good coach. Maguire isn't going anywhere imo, until the next head coach runs the rule over him.
Onana
Laird Varane Maguire Shaw
Caqueret - Kamara
Sancho Fernandes Rashford
Ronaldo
The team most likely won't look like the above but with two free transfers (Kamara, Onana) along with Caqueret who will be coming into the final year of his contract in the summer, the team has potential imo. We could also develop Hannibal instead of buying Caqueret if the head coach sees it fit do so.
I like both of them, but neither are ready to start for us. Laird isn't ready either.
They're both ready to start for us imo because our midfield is that bad. And it remains to be seen with Laird but AWB was never good enough to start for us at fullback so the bar isn't high.
They aren't. Caqueret hasn't even fully established himself at Lyon yet. No doubt he is talented, but Bruno Guimares would be a better bet for what we need at this moment in time. Kamara might present value and he's talented, but there is still a difference between starting for Marseille to United, even if Fred and McTominay shouldn't be our starters. AWB is good enough to start for us, he has shown that already. Hopefully Laird stays injury-free, since that has been the biggest obstacle so far in his young career, but even if he does this season, asking him to immediately make the step up from the Championship to United would be a mistake.
Guimaraes i've mentioned on here when he was playing in Brazil. I wanted us to sign him then. The reason i'm mentioning Caqueret and Kamara is due to their potential low costs and potential for growth.
AWB wouldn't be good enough to start for a coach that expects his fullback to provide a high level in the build up phase Imo.
The Onana ship has failed. It's rumoured he has a deal in place with Inter to go there on a free in the summer and we're not going to hijack it (we should try), if we weren't even interested last summer.
Ready to start? Midfield is bad?
No need with the hysterics. We miss a DM, but Bruno, Fred and Donny are perfectly capable players.
We have a starting Brazilian and Dutch international, and they should be replaced by two 21 year olds from Ligue 1? You're perfectly comfortable with giving Maguire a second chance under new manager but not Fred and Donny. I don't see the logic.
Maguire's fundamental flaws won't change under a new manager. He's slow and lacks technical ability. I'm on the fence with him, he'd have to reach new heights in all other areas to compensate for his shortcomings.
Even if we promote Laird, we need another RB if we're going to replace AWB, because Dalot is awful.
From that point of view they are sensible squad players with the potential to develop into starters. However short-term they wouldn't fix anything and we have needed a metronom for a while. We need players who immediately would improve our passing from midfield.
I am not sure why your standards for AWB are the way they are (this is not a slight on you), but for a position where passing is even more important you make this point:
For what it's worth I think AWB needs competition and rotation, as you may remember I never wanted him to begin with, but I think there is a difference with someone not being good enough to play for United and a player that is functional in the right set-up. I still think he can be our Azpilicueta with the right coaching.
Donny and Bruno aren't midfielders and we shouldn't look to plaster over the cracks. Both players have shown their best form at the highest level playing in advanced central roles.
I was vocal in criticizing the Maguire and AWB signings when we signed them both. My post history will attest to that. So not sure what you mean by me 'giving Maguire a chance'
Donny and Bruno aren't midfielders? They're not DMs, but I've seen both play good games as 8's. Donny has thrived there for us in his cameos this season and last year for Holland. Bruno has had a career prior to Ole's "try and make some magic" tactics. I don't see a reason why we couldn't play two 8's with one DM in most games, especially when we also have Fred in the squad who's a bit more defensively minded option.
I was referring to this bit:
How's this not true for Fred, Donny and even Bruno in a more disciplined role?
It’s been a stand out quality for him at times this season. Have you watched him much?
I clearly said in one of my earlier posts that every player should be good on the ball. But not every player needs to have a expansive passing game as long as the collective is geared towards progressing play in a efficient and effective way. The game today with high pressing teams and coordinated pressures high up the pitch requires a level of simplicity along with a technical proficiency which is missing with several of our starting 11 players at the back imo.
It's true for all of them with a new head coach.
AWB should be good enough for the bolded bit with better coaching. I'd also argue that he is technically proficient. His decision-making is the bigger problem that needs to be better. I would also like to know what a bit of rotation and competition can do for him similar to Shaw with Telles.
Do you mean with DVBs best performance the game yesterday? The 45min in a 10 v 11 match? He played well, don't want to take anything away from him but his positive actions were mostly in the offensive. Defensively I didn't really see anything that was more than decent (apart from that tackle Scholes was probably proud of). To play DVB we need more stability at the back. One DM will not provide that. And given that Pogba and Bruno at best have the same characterics in that regard, it is next to impossible to form a capable midfield three with two of them. Apart from that, Pogba is likely gone in the summer. It shouldn't depend on who the manager is, he had the chance to show if he is worth >400k and he made it clear.
Isn't "thrived" pushing it quite a lot? I didn't see him thriving anywhere, he had a good 45min, no question about that but we also conceded. Lets see if he can show this sort of form over time. I hope so but he is still a wild card for me. If we want to have a midfielder who is great at passing the ball around, we can just pay Pogba all his salary, he seems better than Donny. Fred and McTom certainly aren't the answer for our midfield, but they provide stuff that Donny hasn't showed us.
No not really. He didn't strike me as a ball carrier when playing against us but if you guys are saying he is doing that since this season, I am sure, you are right. Just to make it clear (as I wrote in the Rice-Thread) I have absolutely nothing against the player nor the player coming to United. My troubles are with the financial outlay that seems to be connected with it.
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