Yeah, I'm pretty surpised by the very positive reviews about tonight's game. Him and Pogba were pretty lost for like 65mn of this game and barely brought the ball forward. Then Pogba turned the light on and it was a whole different game.
Aurelien Tchouameni / Signs for Madrid
- Thread starter Adam-Utd
- Start date
- Status
I have no issue with Rice’s quality.
The issue with Rice is he is probably going to cost close to or even more than 100 million, along with big wages.
Tchouameni should be our CDM asap whether it's to partner Pogba next season or not.
He's a HUGE upgrade on Fred and Matic. If it makes Pogba want to stay it could have a secondary plus point too.
He's a HUGE upgrade on Fred and Matic. If it makes Pogba want to stay it could have a secondary plus point too.
Statistically, and last season: More progressive passes, a bit more touches in the attacking third, significantly more presses and a higher success rate of pressing, makes more tackles and interceptions, has the ball a good deal more.
In the other direction ; (Rice over Tchouameni): Passing is a bit more accurate, and makes more progressive carries.
I do have a very nasty feeling we'll try and sneak in our Pogba replacement and DM as one player, despite the fact we already need 1, arguably 2, midfielders already and that's with Pogba still at the club.
On the bolded, this pretty much sums up everything I'm missing when I watch Rice when you consider he's supposedly a £100 million player.
Passing being more accurate is likely due to being less progressive. So I wouldn't count that as one in the other direction. Ball carries is definitely something Rice does more of
To be fair I think most were gushing over Fabinho, Mourinho not being keen on him should've been a surefire sign that he was going to be a top playerMost of us said the same similar about Fabinho. What does he do that makes him a top player? Worked out well.
I suppose the pressing stats can also reflect role and the team's system, but on the whole I think that with Rice the same picture emerges from stats and eye-test alike; that of a player who is relatively limited in terms of what he does and what he doesn't. His passing stats are low-end almost across the board. That to me jars heavily with a 100m valuation.
On the other hand, the things he does well could be argued to be just the things we need. Assuming it's going to be Pogba with Bruno in the midfield.
Good point!
The other thing to consider is pressing.
From the little I've seen of Rice and Tchouameni they play the CDM role differently. Tchouameni has the ability to play further up the pitch almost as a CM primarily due to his pressing ability. You will see him pressing a player all the way on the other side of the pitch and at times - a player will have gotten past/beaten Tchouameni but he makes a crazy run back and makes a slide tackle back that wins the ball almost like he is wan Bissaka in midfield. Players do get past him though but he can win the ball back with a tank like interception or slide tackle.
However, Rice is different to the way he plays because he doesn't press. He primarily shields the defensive line by playing in front of them. He won't be found on the other end of the pitch unless he himself has the ball, otherwise he will be protecting the defenders. He doesn't press, he kind of stops the attack happening through his zone and that's what he brings.
I like both players and believe they would both be good because they are two different players. Ones a better presser (alternative to Fred), one is a better shielder (alternative to Matic).
Tchouameni didn't play as a DM for me last night. He and Pogba both played with plenty of positional freedom I felt, due to the France 3 CBs behind them.
To me he looked like a player who wanted to break forward with the ball rather than retain or use the ball well or sit defensively
a good player by the looks of him but a player similar to McTominay or Donny....
think we really need a DM playmaker for some balance
To me he looked like a player who wanted to break forward with the ball rather than retain or use the ball well or sit defensively
a good player by the looks of him but a player similar to McTominay or Donny....
think we really need a DM playmaker for some balance
Didn't see anything about him to suggest he can hold his own if you pair him with Bruno and Pogba. Didn't play like a natural dm too. Was kind of allover the place
No midfielder holds a midfield by themselves. Why are we always assuming if we sign a midfielder they'll be used in a 4-3-3 anyway?
Rice doesn't even play a 4-3-3 either, he's the screen in a 4-2-3-1.
When united play the same role we don't use a defensive screen either, just players that help out defensively, this is what Tchouameni does too.
Tchouaméni isn't a DM, so there is no point expecting him to look like a natural DM or even try to play like one.
What good is he if he can't?
This is what I see too. The guy is good, but the ball does get past him and then he has to make a last minute tackle aswell which he is good at.
The tackles are good but I'm not sure if that makes him a CDM. He seems more a CM to me.
Kind of how Fred can press up the pitch, how players can get past Fred but then Fred "should" do something about it but doesn't. Tchouameni can. He kind of has to press up the pitch and down the pitch to work.
However, I don't necessarily see him as the sole shielding type CDM that I view Rice to be. When I watch Rice, even if he is in a double pivot with Soucek, soucek can be in the other end of the pitch and Rice is bang there in front of the defence as he always is.
Whether people rate him or not - it's why I believe Ole will go for him if Pogba stays, because he will stay where is required, and let the others do their thing.
I'd rather see Tchouameni as a replacement for Fred if Ole things that Fred is not good enough.
Strictly speaking CMs are exactly what United is playing with. Positionally speaking, there is no CDM in a 4231. Over time, the discussion around the need for a defensively secure central midfielder and around playing McFred because of the balance they bring has just devolved into people confusing the first of those with needing to find a CDM, and the second with fielding two CDMs (which we obviously aren't). Mostly this goes unchallenged as a) they mostly, but not completely, raise similar issues and b) people just can't be arsed.
Just wanted to say I think it’s a really good comparison you made here @Bebestation
Yeah agree it needs to be in context however the bolded is how I feel on it as well.
I don’t necessarily think Rice-Pogba wouldn’t work though, I think it would definitely be an upgrade on what we have currently.
Great point about Rice's playing style and I think he is far closer to the Carrick interpretation of the DM role than Tchouameni (who is more of dynamic defensive MC, not DM, in the Kante-mould)
Can you expand? Are you suggesting he is not a sitting DM like Fabinho, or how carrick was? Or are you saying he is not like Kante?
From what I've seen he is good at tackling, shielding, but also good on the ball. Not quite sure what else he needs to be a DM?
Would be a perfect signing for us. Tenacious with a brilliant passing range and streets ahead of what we have in that position. We never make this type of signing though so I cant see it happening.
He is a box to box, he isn't that different from a McTominay or Fred when it comes to the role that he plays, he just happens to be better at tackling.
The kid looks like a man.
Not sure of you're point? name me a midfielder that runs it all by himself?
He's pretty much a younger Fred with more size, he'd be a very good replacement IMO.
he and scott play a very similar role and position....could be a bit of a redundancy type of player
Looked really good to me.
Surprised to see the praise on last night's game. I watched it live so granted you can't always see intricate details like you can on TV, but he spent the first 60 minutes chasing shadows. It was only because Pogba started getting a bit of space on the ball that he didn't spend the full 90 minutes doing that. He made a few nice tackles but that was usually after getting beaten.
Unless of course he is much better.
Anyone else thinks we should skip this one because his parents misspelled Aurelion?
Kante, Casemiro, Busquets, Carrick, Mascherano
nice jokeThis whole "needs to hold the midfield on his own" bullshit is born out of a deluded obsession with trying to start Pogba and Bruno in a midfield 3, give it up, no such midfielder exists. Look at the 3 best teams in the league, none of them play with 2 careless midfielders who are 90% offensive. Tchouameni looks like he'd be a good buy along with a playmaker #8, with Pogba, Matic and Van de Beek off.
None of them do it and football is a team game. One player won't be holding it by himself, you need team effort on and off the ball.
Ofcourse no player can do the whole midfield by themselves.
However, there are plenty of midfielders who can do :
Most of the defensive work of the midfield by himself aka a defensive midfielder. We saw this with Busquets vs Xavi and Iniesta. Fernandinho vs De Bryune and David Silva. Casemiro vs the more creative roles of Modric and Kroos. What Gattuso brings to Pirlo and Kaka.
This is what I assume people question about Tchouameni, whether he really is a Central defensive midfielder that can do most of the defensive work by himself. We see that Fred and Mctominay have defensive ability but they cannot be played by themselves- ultimately because they are more CM'S, with some positives further up the pitch and at times some negatives that show the deeper they play.
However, there are plenty of midfielders who can do :
Most of the defensive work of the midfield by himself aka a defensive midfielder. We saw this with Busquets vs Xavi and Iniesta. Fernandinho vs De Bryune and David Silva. Casemiro vs the more creative roles of Modric and Kroos. What Gattuso brings to Pirlo and Kaka.
This is what I assume people question about Tchouameni, whether he really is a Central defensive midfielder that can do most of the defensive work by himself. We see that Fred and Mctominay have defensive ability but they cannot be played by themselves- ultimately because they are more CM'S, with some positives further up the pitch and at times some negatives that show the deeper they play.
This just isn't true. None of those groups you mentioned defend badly.
Barcelona were probably the best defensive team of the 10's because they suffocated teams with pressing. Xavi and Iniesta were key to that pressing.
Modrid and Kroos do plenty of hard work defensively, same with Silva and De bruyne.
Yes the CDM's position themselves well and sweep up when required, but that's mainly due to the hard work from their team mates ahead making it easier for them to sweep up.
How many times have we seen Fernandinho forced into taking a foul to stop a counter attack? is that because he can't hold a midfield by himself?
Not even prime Kante can cover an entire midfield by himself, but a good team scructure can certainly enhance those attributes.
Tchouameni certainly ticks every box we should be looking at for a new CM.
This lads thread keeps getting bumped and I think we are linked with him.
Honestly if we can get the DM position strengthened properly with some top level talent the sky is the limit with this squad imo. It may or may not work out for Ole this season, I hope it does, but if it doesn't then I hope any replacement manager continues the continuity of our recruitment approach and finishes this squad with an improved midfield, it's the one area we are really lacking.
Honestly if we can get the DM position strengthened properly with some top level talent the sky is the limit with this squad imo. It may or may not work out for Ole this season, I hope it does, but if it doesn't then I hope any replacement manager continues the continuity of our recruitment approach and finishes this squad with an improved midfield, it's the one area we are really lacking.
Adam covered quite a bit on the differences between the examples you gave, none of the #8's in your examples are as undisciplined as Pogba off the ball and none of them are anywhere near as careless as Bruno or Pogba on it, David Silva for instance hardly ever gave the ball away so when it was lost by someone else he was in his defensive position off the ball, which was similar to Pirlo for Milan, completely different types to Pogba and Bruno who are very creative but also erratic and careless, especially in a coaching set-up that as so basic as ours.
- Status