B2B Draft QF: MJJ vs Willhse

[MJJ]

I agree with the above. MVB on the end of Beckham's crosses would be awesome. As it stands though I think it's very tight. I'm calling it a draw.

How will it be a draw? He is playing an insanely high defensive line with passarella playing attackers on side? He is heavily reliant on either carlos/Alberto to carry the ball up front or for beckham to pass it from deep to ronaldo/rooney. Not your typical target man.

I have one of the GOATs in Zico playing in DM and my opposition is "reacting" to it by having his GOAT DMs drop back to centre back and leaving him in acres of space? Who is challenging breitner and schweinsteiger? Rooney?

How is the below formation stopping a garrincha and ronaldinho who wont be tracking back a lot?

I swear you guys can be hipsters when it comes to new tactics. If will had played the exact same tactics but depicting it as a 3-5-2 he would be losing here.

A one man sweeper behind the whole defensive line up with the offside trap in play and no fullbacks to cover goat wingers?

This is what the formation would look like in attack on the right hand side (important to remember that both centre backs don't overlap at once).



I don't see how your defensive side adequately covers my threat. The two defensive midfielders will need to pull out wide to stop the deep crosses, which leaves Socrates fairly exposed. Garrincha and Ronaldinho are not really wingers that contribute to defence, so I haven't mentioned them. Zico is a similar level of defensive ability as Socrates, and I'm not expecting Socrates to drop back to defend, so I expect the same of Zico.

It's quite hard to show how my team would move in transition as I'm not clever enough with computers Just trying hard to put my vision into words!

 

[Physiocrat]

How will it be a draw? He is playing an insanely high defensive line with passarella playing attackers on side? He is heavily reliant on either carlos/Alberto to carry the ball up front or for beckham to pass it from deep to ronaldo/rooney. Not your typical target man.

I have one of the GOATs in Zico playing in DM and my opposition is "reacting" to it by having his GOAT DMs drop back to centre back and leaving him in acres of space? Who is challenging breitner and schweinsteiger? Rooney?

How is the below formation stopping a garrincha and ronaldinho who wont be tracking back a lot?

I swear you guys can be hipsters when it comes to new tactics. If will had played the exact same tactics but depicting it as a 3-5-2 he would be losing here.

A one man sweeper behind the whole defensive line up with the offside trap in play and no fullbacks to cover goat wingers?

He is potentially vulnerable on the break but you can't beat Voronin and Rijkaard as DMs. Also if Garrincha and Dinho don't track back he could well overload you with sheer numbers. Also when he regains his defensive shape he will be difficult to break down - that graphic only shows the team on, not off the ball . A more attacking full-back than Irwin would have suited you better to allow Dinho to drift in more. As it stands I think Carlos and Krol could deal with Dinho quite well as he's unlikely to go on the outside that much

 

[MJJ]

This is what the formation would look like in attack on the right hand side (important to remember that both centre backs don't overlap at once).



I don't see how your defensive side adequately covers my threat. The two defensive midfielders will need to pull out wide to stop the deep crosses, which leaves Socrates fairly exposed. Garrincha and Ronaldinho are not really wingers that contribute to defence, so I haven't mentioned them. Zico is a similar level of defensive ability as Socrates, and I'm not expecting Socrates to drop back to defend, so I expect the same of Zico.

It's quite hard to show how my team would move in transition as I'm not clever enough with computers Just trying hard to put my vision into words!

As to how that will be stopped from a defensive point of view.

Why would my midfielders move outside to block the crosses? I have schwarzenbeck and beckenbauer against rooney(not the best header of the ball) and Ronaldo(not a target man). You can cross all day if the ball is coming to Ronaldos head and not his feet. I will happy keep blocking it.

Crosses are one of the most low percentage goal scoring opportunities. If you want to try it with two average headers of the ball up against 6 ft centre backs, be my guest.

Both Garrincha and Ronaldinho will wait behind Rijkaard and Voronin but in front of Passarella out wide and wait for one of breitner and schweinsteiger to release them. I will have zico and seeler up front and breitner joining them running at your defense. Have fun defending that counter attack every time the cross is headed out of the box.

 

[MJJ]

He is potentially vulnerable on the break but you can't beat Voronin and Rijkaard as DMs. Also if Garrincha and Dinho don't track back he could well overload you with sheer numbers. Also when he regains his defensive shape he will be difficult to break down - that graphic only shows the team on, not off the ball . A more attacking full-back than Irwin would have suited you better to allow Dinho to drift in more. As it stands I think Carlos and Krol could deal with Dinho quite well as he's unlikely to go on the outside that much

I agree that I cant beat voronin and Rijkaard as DMs, good thing they are playing as auxiliary CBs though. He is not attacking through the middle, he is not patiently bringing the ball up. The whole game plan is to attack in numbers and cross the ball in. What happens when beckenbauer rises up over rooney and heads the ball out? Do you see Socrates beating schweign and breitner to it?

Once they have the ball, they look up to find passarella standing in the centre circle behind the defensive line playing everyone onside. The transition from defense to attack will take seconds.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

As it stands I think Carlos and Krol could deal with Dinho quite well as he's unlikely to go on the outside that much

As it stands, Carlos and Krol are not playing on the same flank as Dinho

 

[willhse456]

@willhse456

In an all-time context Rooney is decent in the air, has one WC season in that regard and that's about it. But, more importantly, not sure why you went for Il Fenomeno when someone like Van Basten was available. You even described him as a target man/pure finisher here. Seems just a bit wasted in this system imo.

Very original concept though, enjoyed reading about it.

Thank you. The decision between the two was very close, and maybe I should have gone for MVB. However, liked the idea of Ronaldo and Rooney breaking on the counter attack, and think they would also be a great pairing, bringing the best out of each other!

 

[willhse456]

Too much is being made out of that formation graphic, if it helps I'll just shift the eleven all slightly deeper. It's not changing tactic or incredibly exposed, it's just representing what the team would shape up like when the ball is pretty much in the oppositions corner flag...

There still hasn't really been any explanation as to how Beckenbauer fits into this team and who covers for his roaming runs forward.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

In the end have decided to stick with willhse. Have voted him but was still debating on changing my vote due to Garrincha. But the between Carlos, Krol and Voronin, I believe Willhse has it covered. Very tough call.

 

[MJJ]

Option 1:- The cross comes in from the left side.




The ball is headed out, one of breitner or schweignsteiger receive it. Socrates is not really going to pressure either of them. They look up, see garrincha free and pass the ball in space. Krol is after him but can't catch a garrincha in full sprint mode.

Seeler goes left, zico goes right to split passarella and rijkaard, creating a simple 2 vs 1 and garrincha picks out a simple pass to seeler to score or goes for it himself.
Option 2:- The cross comes from the right



The ball is headed out, one of breitner or schweignsteiger receive it. Socrates is not really going to pressure either of them. They look up, see ronaldinho free and pass the ball in space. Rijkaard is in two minds whether to go after ronaldinho or zico.

Seeler goes left and removes passarella out of the equation. ronaldinho and Zico have a 2 vs 1 against Rijkaard and it ends with the ball in the net.

Creating an offensive overload and crossign the ball in is a dumb tactic against a team who can counter attack in seconds with two GOAT wingers.

 

[Physiocrat]

As it stands, Carlos and Krol are not playing on the same flank as Dinho

It's late, leave me alone

Garrincha is a better match up but C Alberto with the help of Beckham could do well against Dinho without an overlapping full-back.

Edit - Although it looks like I have made him switch flanks

 

[MJJ]

Too much is being made out of that formation graphic, if it helps I'll just shift the eleven all slightly deeper. It's not changing tactic or incredibly exposed, it's just representing what the team would shape up like when the ball is pretty much in the oppositions corner flag...

There still hasn't really been any explanation as to how Beckenbauer fits into this team and who covers for his roaming runs forward.

You confirmed in the below post that you are holding a very high defensive line up at the centre circle? The formation graphic is not the problem, its the tactics that you are employing here.

This is Spurs' defensive line as a reference point, in last seasons Champions League, it's not too different to mine, especially as Madrid actually have the ball in this picture, whilst my picture above would be when one of my players has control of the ball (probably Beckham or Alberto).

 

[Synco]

This is important to note. Both Ronaldinho and Garrincha aren't side hoggers that will cross into Seeler, therefore not using Seeler at his maximum potential. Instead they will be cutting inside to incredibly congested areas, where they won't be as effective.

Seeler of course wasn't Peter Crouch. Scored tonnes of goals in tonnes of ways, not just heading.

From what I've seen, Seeler is indeed not Peter Crouch, but more of a playmaker-striker who likes to roam the entire opposition half and positions himself in the box in the final moments of an attack. I think it's true that a lack of crosses will underuse his aerial abilities, although I'd expect his teammates to still flick the odd high ball towards him when he makes a run. But he should be able to contribute to a fluid attack in lots of other ways.

What's interesting about MJJ's team is that there's a wealth of playmaking and box-to-box ability, mostly focussed on central areas. I ask myself if that will result in a burst of creative synergy, or if they end up getting in each other's way?
As for balancing elements, I'd expect Schweinsteiger to restrict himself to stay behind as cover/back-passing option/DLP, but there are still 6 others who were great as busy movers & agitators. (One of them, Beckenbauer, might also adapt and stay relatively passive when it comes to forward runs.)

 

[harms]

Do you have 4 attacking players standing around the central line at all times? That's an absurd positional nitpicking where everyone of your players are right where you need them and the opposition's players are all at the position of disadvantage. Hence why those 2-team graphics should only be done by neutrals.

Having your defensive line close to the central line when you have the ball (and it's near the box) is not insane by the way, it's pretty normal today.

@MJJ

 

[Gio]

Option 1:- The cross comes in from the left side.




The ball is headed out, one of breitner or schweignsteiger receive it. Socrates is not really going to pressure either of them. They look up, see garrincha free and pass the ball in space. Krol is after him but can't catch a garrincha in full sprint mode.

Seeler goes left, zico goes right to split passarella and rijkaard, creating a simple 2 vs 1 and garrincha picks out a simple pass to seeler to score or goes for it himself.
Option 2:- The cross comes from the right



The ball is headed out, one of breitner or schweignsteiger receive it. Socrates is not really going to pressure either of them. They look up, see ronaldinho free and pass the ball in space. Rijkaard is in two minds whether to go after ronaldinho or zico.

Seeler goes left and removes passarella out of the equation. ronaldinho and Zico have a 2 vs 1 against Rijkaard and it ends with the ball in the net.

Creating an offensive overload and crossign the ball in is a dumb tactic against a team who can counter attack in seconds with two GOAT wingers.

In option 1, I don’t really understand why Krol would be standing there in no man’s land. Surely he’d drop to cover Garrincha?

In option 2, the whole defence would shuffle right. In fact as soon as CAT advanced (long before he got to the opposition box) Rijkaard would shuttle across to cover the RCB space while Passarella would pick up Zico, Krol to Seeler and Bobby on Garrincha.

 

[MJJ]

Do you have 4 attacking players standing around the central line at all times? That's an absurd positional nitpicking where everyone of your players are right where you need them and the opposition's players are all at the position of disadvantage. Hence why those 2-team graphics should only be done by neutrals.

Having your defensive line close to the central line when you have the ball (and it's near the box) is not insane by the way, it's pretty normal today.

@MJJ

Zico wont be dropping too deep, you can just move him a bit deeper. I mean I have all my attackers in my own half.

Both garrincha and ronaldinho again wont track back too much.

And you don't play a 3-5-2 counter attacking game with that high a defensive line up and one defender playing everyone on side. He is attacking through the fullbacks or punting the ball long. There is no patient build up which allows his team to slowly move up to that position.

 

[MJJ]

In option 1, I don’t really understand why Krol would be standing there in no man’s land. Surely he’d drop to cover Garrincha?

In option 2, the whole defence would shuffle right. In fact as soon as CAT advanced (long before he got to the opposition box) Rijkaard would shuttle across to cover the RCB space while Passarella would pick up Zico, Krol to Seeler and Bobby on Garrincha.

I didnt move the wills team positioning by much, just moved a fullback up and down. He made the graphic.

If you read his tactics, the formation is built on the left centre back and right joining the attack. So when he is attacking, krol will join the attack and move towards a left wing back position.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Sigh, didn't want to vote till yesterday but it's tough to see the setup working in a real big game against the best of teams. Romanticism aside, MJJ's boring side would still come out on top IMO, especially with so much counter attacking threat and pace.

Feel bad for voting against Will's setup in both the games.

 

[MJJ]

Look how deep the actual Sheffield united defend, it's because you can not transition from 3 to 5 instantly and no team which is playing a counter attacking through the wingbacks/centre backs will hold a line that high and have a sweeper playing everyone on side.

Positioning of centre backs during the match @Gio. The formation relies on the left and right centre duo joining the attack quite aggressively to create over loads and cross the ball in. So they wont be staying back and moving across to cover the wing back as that is not part of the tactics.

 

[willhse456]

Look how deep the actual Sheffield united defend, it's because you can not transition from 3 to 5 instantly and no team which is playing a counter attacking through the wingbacks/centre backs will hold a line that high and have a sweeper playing everyone on side.

What are you trying to prove with this picture. The ball is literally in Sheffield's half, of course they're going to drop deeper!!! I've explained why they're so high up multiple times and I feel like we're going in circles.

They're high up in the graphic because the ball is in the opposition corner flag. It is not that weird and incredibly common in modern day football.

 

[Jim Beam]

The way I see it..

- the lack of work-rate from most of MJJ forwards (Zico and wide attackers) will create exactly what willlhse wants or overload through the flanks ("7 vs 6 situations" as described in OP)
- while I made a remark about Ronaldo last night, Rooney is perfect for the system with his work-rate making additional numbers in midfield. All hail Rooney for once in an all-time draft!
- the gap in midfield on willhse side won't be as big as it seems as MJJ just has to pull one of his midfielders to cover the flanks a bit, otherwise, willhse players will not only cross but go into the area through link-up play. Seen some of Sheffield goals and they do exactly this if you don't protect the side with one of your mids

Saying all that, MJJ midfield base is fantastic. As much as Voronin and Rijkaard are brilliant choices for willhse tactics, same can be said for MJJ with Breitner and Bastian. Both defensively great and able to make a quick transition. But the main factor for me personally is Beckenbauer (on top of his organisational skills in defence) who I can see taking full advantage in this game with his forward runs once MJJ is in possession.

Great work by willhse, as GSTQ said feel bad voting against him. It is not hipsters thing as MJJ said, bringing something new and fresh to the draft should always earn you some extra points imo. And if it wasn't for Beckenbauer or maybe just that Van Basten type of striker he would probably have my vote or I would at least call it a draw.

 

[willhse456]

There has been little to no discussion on how @MJJ plans on coping with my overlapping centre backs.

His wingers don't defend, so there will be plenty of times where Irwin and Zanetti are faced with 2 v 1 situations. Irwin especially will have problems, does he close down Beckham or Alberto?

 

[MJJ]

There has been little to no discussion on how @MJJ plans on coping with my overlapping centre backs.

His wingers don't defend, so there will be plenty of times where Irwin and Zanetti are faced with 2 v 1 situations. Irwin especially will have problems, does he close down Beckham or Alberto?

Beckham isn't tasked with the same responsibility as Carlos. He is assuming his normal right midfielder duties albeit slightly defensively. We know how dangerous his crossing is from deep, he doesn't have to get to the byline to be dangerous. I'll produce a graphic of what the team should look like in attack soon for a better visualisation.

What are you trying to prove with this picture. The ball is literally in Sheffield's half, of course they're going to drop deeper!!! I've explained why they're so high up multiple times and I feel like we're going in circles.

They're high up in the graphic because the ball is in the opposition corner flag. It is not that weird and incredibly common in modern day football.

Sheffield united formation is not incredibly common in modern football, you are relying on your wing backs and centre backs to race up the pitch. The starting position matters a lot, the only way your attacking position materialises when the ball is in my corner is if you are holding a higher line to begin with.

 

[Jim Beam]

Great game, but I have to say it. People really shouldn't talk about the score during the game.

 

[Gio]

There has been little to no discussion on how @MJJ plans on coping with my overlapping centre backs.

His wingers don't defend, so there will be plenty of times where Irwin and Zanetti are faced with 2 v 1 situations. Irwin especially will have problems, does he close down Beckham or Alberto?

It's a fair point. I'll be in a minority but could see Carlos being as influential here as Garrincha in the shape of the game - he'd get so much of the ball and use his pace to hurtle forward with it.

Your tactics look fine to me. Great to see something new. Plus it exploits the ability of the wide CBs to push forward, which was never used enough by the spate of top teams who moved to a back three in recent years. I voted for MJJ because the 1v1 abilities of Zico, Ronaldinho and Garrincha are off the charts, and Ronaldo apart, the trio of Socrates, Rooney and Beckham didn't quite have the same potential to wreak havoc against that German core.

 

[willhse456]

Well done @MJJ, a bit disappointed as I would have liked to have had the chance to test the team further with another 2 reinforcements but oh well!

Would be interesting to see what other drafters think would be the best team for this tactic from watching the video and reading the writeup in the OP etc. My vision before the draft started was this:



Positions I'm not sure about are the 2 wide players, left centreback and support striker.

 

[willhse456]

Great game, but I have to say it. People really shouldn't talk about the score during the game.

Completely agree, it can be quite annoying, especially when it's a tight game and hard to decide, as voters will tend to side with the losing team.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Wow, nice comeback by MJJ.

Hard luck @willhse456 you built a cracking team with a refreshing and new tactic. Loved it.

 

[harms]

Probably something like this?

From all the liberos I think Scirea is suited to those wing runs the best — Beckenbauer preferred central channels, while Scirea often rampaged through the right or through the left.

Dani Alves vs Philipp Lahm at right wing — I've picked Alves as he's got more stamina. He had just been voted the best player at Copa while providing incredible individual performance against Argentina... he can do everything, and his passing/one-touch game and the ability to cut inside as well as overlapping and pinging perfect crosses would be very valuable here.


Touch choice between Platini, Cruyff and Di Stefano for the central role. Gullit is an obvious partner for van Basten up front. Voronin gets ahead Desailly because I rate his ball-playing skills a bit higher. Elias Figueroa — the best choice for a towering figure at the back; his physical advantages over the likes of Baresi and Beckenbauer play a huge role in this choice.

Nedved/Facchetti are fine here. Can't think of anyone better — arguably Krol for that LCB spot? I can envision Bossis thriving here, but Facchetti is simply a bit better.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Can't think of anyone better — arguably Krol for that LCB spot

In the pure sense of the position in the system, I'd probably pick Zebec ahead of Krol

 

[harms]

In the pure sense of the position in the system, I'd probably pick Zebec ahead of Krol

Didn't want to include players that I haven't seen. On paper he fits perfectly, of course.

 

[MJJ]

Good game @willhse456 , sorry was watching cricket.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Can't think of anyone better — arguably Krol for that LCB spot?

Nilton has played LCB in back 3 and I think edges Facchetti tactically. VR Andrade has played that role. Frank de Boer perhaps? Or Emlyn Hughes suit it well too.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Nilton has played LCB in back 3 and I think edges Facchetti tactically. VR Andrade has played that role. Frank de Boer perhaps? Or Emlyn Hughes suit it well too.

That is a draft argument I don't like. When he played LCB, he had lost his attacking side after getting old from what I know.

Only those players who played both as CB and WB at the same point in their career should be eligible.

I wondered this during the game too, if Alberto played both the roles at the same time as well or only after he got old he moved to CB

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

That is a draft argument I don't like. When he played LCB, he had lost his attacking side after getting old from what I know.

I recall during a earlier research that he played LCB in back 3 in 1950s,which was pretty much him in youth/peak. Have to look again, but he was playing as a LCB in back 3 when Stanley Matthews rinsed him in 1956. Was only in 1958+ when he got switched to LB when Brazil switched to a back 4. The immediate years pre-1958 was all WM/Back 3.