B2B Draft - R1: Willhse vs Michaelf

Who will win this match?


  • Total voters
    12
  • Poll closed .

Edgar Allan Pillow

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vs

............................................. TEAM WILLHSE .................................................................................... TEAM MICHAELF ......................................


TEAM WILLHSE:

“Woah wtf Will has only got one central defender, wtf is going on?!?!”

“Will has lost his mind, this (insert bland 442/433/traditional 352 formation) team will beat this crazily attacking team easily”

That is where you’re wrong you see. I come before you today with a tactic never seen before (to my knowledge) on this draft forum. This will revolutionise draft for the foreseeable future. I present to you Chris Wilder’s 3-5-2 with overlapping centre-backs, yes you heard that correctly.

Video explaining the formation and tactics very well:

https://www.footballdna.co.uk/featu...pOjhzkO61QTxzpKS3tEBnuRpDmw0Z9QfEBVHS3l1lt6b4

“Essentially, we try to pen opposition teams in with controlled possession in their final third, at which point one of our wide centre-backs bombs on to create an overload. It sounds like it shouldn’t work, but it does – we’ve got a lot of goals from it as teams really struggle to adapt to the “organised chaos” that we try and create.” (Ben Meakin, BladesPod)

Defensively, When out of possession, the 3-5-2 can become a 5-3-2 or indeed a 5-4-1, with Rooney pulling wide.




An ode to Chris Wilder:

1) The most important thing about this formation is to have a mix of hard working players that are also good on the ball.

2) This formation relies heavily on crossing, so I have picked some of the best crossers that we have ever seen, including the best ever in Beckham, who suits this formation perfectly. Riva and Rooney were also incredible in the air, and finishing inside the box.

3) This tactic creates an overload that is not seen in conventional tactics. There are 7 players involved in the attacking phase. Usually only 6 are involved in conventional 433’s, meaning that teams are not used to defending against this many players.

4) The most important players in this system are: the two wide centrebacks, the two defensive midfielders, and the central defender.

5) Whilst Sheffield Utd had two centre-backs on the outside, I decided to take this a step forward and get two incredibly hard working fullbacks, that are very well rounded players and strong in the tackle, with incredible fitness levels. Carlos and Alberto will also be much better at getting the ball in the box than Basham and O’Donnell.

6) As Carlos and Alberto move forward to join the attack, Rijkaard and Voronin step back in to cover the vacated space. It is crucial that both defensive midfielders are good on the ball, whilst also being brilliant defensively, and there is no one better than Rijkaard for this role.

7) The wide midfielders in this system need to be comfortable working on the inside channels, and need to possess the ability to create chances from deep. They also need to be competent defensively, but don’t have the same defensive responsibilities as the defensive midfielders. These players are primarily to draw the fullbacks out of position to create space for Carlos and Alberto. If the fullbacks are drawn to Carlos and Alberto then it gives plenty of time for Beckham to whip in a cross, which we know he is absolutely lethal with.

8) The attacking midfielder has a free role, and is expected to be great on the ball, feeding the two strikers, whilst also being able to finish themselves. Socrates was a magician on the ball with incredible vision, and would be perfect in this role feeding Riva and Rooney.

9) This formation has one target man/pure finisher (Riva) partnered by a support striker that drops into midfield on occasion, whilst being clinical in the box (Rooney). Both of these strikers are fantastic in the air, and would thrive on floated crosses into the box. Will expand on Rooney more within the discussion but I believe he is criminally underrated in these drafts.


Some stats from Sheffield Utd’s 2018/19 season

Least goals conceded in the Championship, shows the formation isn’t vulnerable defensively.

78 goals scored in 46 games, 4th highest in the Championship.

No club registered as many shots (80) or goals (25) from within the six yard box.


TEAM MICHAELF

My team will play a 4-1-2-1-2 Midfield Diamond formation. In Goal we have 2002 World Cup Golden Ball winner Oliver Kahn. My two wingbacks Marcelo and Leandro will provide width. When the wingbacks are attacking, our defensive midfielder Marcel Desailly will move back into defense with the centreback on the side of the wingback that is attacking moving across to cover the flank. This means our backline will look as follows:

When neither Marcelo or Leandro are attacking:

Marcelo - Krol - Burgnich - Leandro

When Marcelo is attacking:

Krol - Desailly - Burgnich - Leandro

When Leandro is attacking:

Marcelo - Krol - Desailly - Burgnich

When both Marcelo and Leandro are attacking:
........Krol - Desailly - Burgnich........

This defensive setup is aided by the fact that both of my centrebacks are worldclass fullbacks on the side that they are expected to cover and that Desailly was world class at both centreback and defensive midfield. Furthermore, even when Desailly moves back into defense, Marco Tardelli and Lothar Matthaus are still a highly suitable midfield combination from a defensive perspective.

Offensively my team is built around getting the best out of Ricardo Bochini who was an expert at timing and weighting a pass so that the recipient was in an ideal position. In Argentina a precise pass which gives a forward a one-on-one opportunity against a goalkeeper is called a pase bochinesco (Bochiniesque pass). In order to take full advantage of Bochini's passing abilities both of my strikers (Eto'o and Bican) are quick and great finishers. Bican's time over 100m is 10.8 seconds. During his career Bican scored 805 goals in 530 official games including 534 goals in 274 games during an 11 year spell at Slavia Prague. Bican was top scorer in the Austrian league once and in the Czechoslovakia/Bohemia and Moravia league ten times including nine seasons in succession (during which he scored in league games (with the number of league games played by his club that season in brackets) were 22 (22), 29 (20), 50 (22), 38 (22), 45 (22), 39 (22), 57 (26), 31 (20) and 43 (26) goals respectively).
 

willhse456

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Good luck @Michaelf7777777!

If anyone has some questions about my tactic that I haven't covered already please ask before voting!

Will post a bit more in half an hour or so
 

willhse456

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I'll start things off by talking about a certain player in my team that happens to be England's and Manchester United's top goalscorer, but for a strange reason, doesn't get the respect he deserves in the drafting community here.




Brilliant video here:


So why is Rooney rarely drafted? Did the 2010 contract problems really put people off that much? Is it because he was very average post-SAF? We constantly see other players that played with him in these drafts (Ferdinand, Vidic, Van der Sar, Giggs, Scholes) but never Rooney.

Rooney was an incredible player between 2004-2011. One of the best forwards in the world from 2004-2009, and incredibly versatile. He had an incredibly high work rate, lots of energy, aggression, pace and brilliant finishing ability. I would argue that between 2009 and 2011 he was the best striker in the world, taking full responsibility after Ronaldo left, and propelled us to another Champions League final.

Passing:


Would be interesting to hear why he's not particularly rated here.
 

harms

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Yeah, I think that I can see it working. Bochini releasing Eto'o and Bican into free space looks incredibly threatening though.
 

2mufc0

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I'll start things off by talking about a certain player in my team that happens to be England's and Manchester United's top goalscorer, but for a strange reason, doesn't get the respect he deserves in the drafting community here.




Brilliant video here:


So why is Rooney rarely drafted? Did the 2010 contract problems really put people off that much? Is it because he was very average post-SAF? We constantly see other players that played with him in these drafts (Ferdinand, Vidic, Van der Sar, Giggs, Scholes) but never Rooney.

Rooney was an incredible player between 2004-2011. One of the best forwards in the world from 2004-2009, and incredibly versatile. He had an incredibly high work rate, lots of energy, aggression, pace and brilliant finishing ability. I would argue that between 2009 and 2011 he was the best striker in the world, taking full responsibility after Ronaldo left, and propelled us to another Champions League final.

Passing:


Would be interesting to hear why he's not particularly rated here.
I think he is rated its just that the other players in his position (10,second striker) he's competing with are all time greats, no disrespect to Rooney who are a tier above him.
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

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Willhse's back 3 works due to lack of threadtening wide players from Michael. Though I'd have preferred someone like Bossis or Em Hughes than Roberto Carlos there. Can't access the link in OP, but is this the Sheffield United 3-5-2 modal?

Desailly-Tardelli-Matthaus is a incredibly tough midfield.
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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Will, love the setup. The freshness in setups in this draft has made me happy. I did watch the video you shared and recommend others to do it too. Never seen anything like that in modern football. Organized chaos is the perfect description.

Few concerns are -

1. Let's say Carlos is caught upfield and Voronin has dropped back. I am guessing both wingback's won't attack at once, so Alberto is at RCB and Rijkaard is marking Bochini. So if Matthaus is free to run at this point, who is taking him out?

2. Is Carlos a good fit there? Centrally against a striker, I would have probably preferred a Krol or Briegel

3. Matthaus, Tardelli and Desailly is as good a midfield to break attacks as there can be. Not really a question, but that is a mighty unlucky midfield to run into
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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@Michaelf7777777

Brilliant team as always. You seem to have some sort of a personal connection with Bochini. Just a childhood favorite or is there something else there?
 

willhse456

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For those thinking how this works defensively:

"Sheffield United are known to be able to see out a game when they take the lead and it is all down to their transition of formations in-game.

Wilder changes the shape of his side to the 5-3-2 with 3 central defenders and two wing-backs that can go on the counter-attack but more so acts as a fourth and fifth defender by getting behind the ball when the opposition is in possession.

This works well against both narrow and wide formations as in narrow formations the back five stays compact and against wide formations as the two wing-backs can push out wide to mark the wingers or overlapping full-backs. If more support is needed one of the strikers (usually McGoldrick) drops back into midfield to support the defence as well, leaving the experienced Billy Sharp as the lone striker."

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/foot...ield-united-tactical-analysis-statistics/amp/

 

willhse456

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Will, love the setup. The freshness in setups in this draft has made me happy. I did watch the video you shared and recommend others to do it too. Never seen anything like that in modern football. Organized chaos is the perfect description.
Thank you, I've wanted to try this out for ages ever since seeing the thread pop up in the football forum, but thought it would be too challenging with lots of restrictions. I was close to making a separate thread in the draft forum about perfect players for this setup, but then stumbled across this draft with no restrictions and thought I'd give it a go!


1. Let's say Carlos is caught upfield and Voronin has dropped back. I am guessing both wingback's won't attack at once, so Alberto is at RCB and Rijkaard is marking Bochini. So if Matthaus is free to run at this point, who is taking him out?
No, both wingbacks don't attack at once. However, Carlos/Alberto would only be extremely attacking in the final phase of offensive play. If you notice in the video they wait until the last moments before making the overlap, either creating a chance or potentially shooting. It's unlikely that all of my defensive players would be occupied at that point, but as one of the DM's drop back then the wing back and Socrates fill the void behind the ball (from my understanding). It's very zonal marking orientated. Carlos will also be bombing back once the ball has been overturned

2. Is Carlos a good fit there? Centrally against a striker, I would have probably preferred a Krol or Briegel
I've adapted the formation slightly. Whilst there are a few players I'm gutted I missed out on (hint: one is playing in the other team :wenger:), I think Carlos fits my vision. I wanted my "overlapping centre-backs" to be a genuine threat, rather than a slow centreback plodding up and down the field. Carlos offers a balanced overall game, whilst giving strength and stamina to the team.

3. Matthaus, Tardelli and Desailly is as good a midfield to break attacks as there can be. Not really a question, but that is a mighty unlucky midfield to run into
I know, it's unfortunate. However, I'm way more pleased that I'm not facing up to someone of Ronaldo/Pele's calibre just yet, as I think my midfield could cope with his in attack. Not sure about how Marcelo plans to cope with Alberto bombing past him and Beckham whipping in crosses from deep!
 

willhse456

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Willhse's back 3 works due to lack of threadtening wide players from Michael. Though I'd have preferred someone like Bossis or Em Hughes than Roberto Carlos there. Can't access the link in OP, but is this the Sheffield United 3-5-2 modal?

Desailly-Tardelli-Matthaus is a incredibly tough midfield.
Yes, this is Sheffield Utd's 3-5-2, quite excited to see it in action next season (assuming they keep it as severe underdogs of course).
 

willhse456

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I think he is rated its just that the other players in his position (10,second striker) he's competing with are all time greats, no disrespect to Rooney who are a tier above him.
I've seen Kaka drafted a lot and he's had nowhere near the impact that Rooney has had, for example. I think Rooney is underrated because apart from 2009-11 he was never the main man. I think he could have been, but he was asked to play different roles due to his versatility and commitment.
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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Thanks for the explanations will, I will ponder on this and vote tomorrow.

I especially appreciate the boldness in playing Carlos but think a Beckham-esque figure on the left would have added more balance in place of Overath. I know physio made a case for Overath's workrate recently but a proper workhorse like Zagallo/Conti would have been better for me personally. The right side on the other hand is just perfect, final ready.

Good luck.
 

2mufc0

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I've seen Kaka drafted a lot and he's had nowhere near the impact that Rooney has had, for example. I think Rooney is underrated because apart from 2009-11 he was never the main man. I think he could have been, but he was asked to play different roles due to his versatility and commitment.
I think you're right about being the main man. It can be argued in terms of peak Kaka's was higher, he won the Balon D'or and was the main man in a successful European Cup team, Rooney hasn't done either.
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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I've seen Kaka drafted a lot and he's had nowhere near the impact that Rooney has had, for example. I think Rooney is underrated because apart from 2009-11 he was never the main man. I think he could have been, but he was asked to play different roles due to his versatility and commitment.
I'd put Kaka's peak way beyond Rooney's. Kaka's impact on that AC Milan team was something else. Was my favorite player in the world before CR showed up.

Rooney maybe had a longer peak but not the better absolute peak in my eyes.
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

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It's just Ironic that Rooney is our highest goal scorer and legend, but has never reached his peak.

- He never had a half decent midfield behind him and was bulk of the work through the spine.
- Even when he had support upfront, he was usually shunted out wide in name of greater good.

If only he had the SS role with a decent midfield behind him during his peak, I'm sure he'd be right there in Top Tier with the rest of GOATs.
 

MJJ

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Will, love the setup. The freshness in setups in this draft has made me happy. I did watch the video you shared and recommend others to do it too. Never seen anything like that in modern football. Organized chaos is the perfect description.

Few concerns are -

1. Let's say Carlos is caught upfield and Voronin has dropped back. I am guessing both wingback's won't attack at once, so Alberto is at RCB and Rijkaard is marking Bochini. So if Matthaus is free to run at this point, who is taking him out?

2. Is Carlos a good fit there? Centrally against a striker, I would have probably preferred a Krol or Briegel

3. Matthaus, Tardelli and Desailly is as good a midfield to break attacks as there can be. Not really a question, but that is a mighty unlucky midfield to run into
Thanks queen.
 

GodShaveTheQueen

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While I am a sucker for teams like this, I had to give the benefit to that midfield of Michael's. I see the current strategy too risky while running into that lot.

A different LM would have probably swing my vote the other way. Great effort nonetheless. You have all my plaudits.

Thanks queen.
Touche douche :lol:
 

Edgar Allan Pillow

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Have gone for Michael in the end. Was hard, but willhse's Defensive line tipped it against him. Passarella/Carlos is not really suited to get the best of either and more similar than complimentary and presence of CAT doesn't help any. Rijkaard/Voronin has a lot of tactical defensive duties and despite their excellent credentials, think Michael's excellent front trio will sneak a goal more than opponent.
 

Michaelf7777777

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I think my two biggest advantages in this game is in the centre of midfield and in the pace and finishing quality of my strikers who are up against centrebacks who never played there (Roberto Carlos), are not the fastest (Passarela) and while he could play there, it wasn't his main position (Carlos Alberto). Furthermore my pacy strikers can be set up by multiple plyers, most notably Bochini, but Krol, Leandro, Matthaus and Marcelo can also create opportunities for my strike duo.
 

willhse456

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I think my two biggest advantages in this game is in the centre of midfield and in the pace and finishing quality of my strikers who are up against centrebacks who never played there (Roberto Carlos), are not the fastest (Passarela) and while he could play there, it wasn't his main position (Carlos Alberto). Furthermore my pacy strikers can be set up by multiple plyers, most notably Bochini, but Krol, Leandro, Matthaus and Marcelo can also create opportunities for my strike duo.
No doubt that you are strong through the centre, but most of my threat comes from wide. On the right hand side particularly I can see you having a problem, with CAT overlapping and Beckham whipping in dangerous crosses from deep. You don't have any wingers for protection in these areas that could potentially cause Beckham/Overath problems.
 

Michaelf7777777

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In terms of my fullbacks, Leandro generally played in a narrow formation so was used to being the only player from his team on his flank. Marcelo often only had CR7 ahead of him on his flank so isn't used to having much defensive help on his flank either. In terms of your players, Overath mainly played centrally while Carlos Alberto was more known for being a playmaker from the back rather than a rampaging runner (similar to Nilton Santos in that regard) while Beckham will mainly be a threat crossing from deep rather than running at people. Desailly will be invaluable on helping my defenders combat that threat.
 

Physiocrat

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Not that it will probably make that much difference but Overath did start his career as a left winger. The Big Soccer list of best left wingers has him in the top 20 IIRC. So I think he is well suited to his role here
 

willhse456

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Cheers! Think you were slightly unlucky not to have a top tier striker as that would have definitely knocked me out.

Interesting to see everyone's perception of Carlos not working at LCB. Will have to have a rethink as I was planning on keeping him there throughout.
 

Himannv

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Cheers! Think you were slightly unlucky not to have a top tier striker as that would have definitely knocked me out.

Interesting to see everyone's perception of Carlos not working at LCB. Will have to have a rethink as I was planning on keeping him there throughout.
I quite like the idea of Bican as an out and out striker. He's hard to judge due to the lack of footage, but everything I've read of him marks him out as being one of the best.