You can have the ball while taking it to the centre of the pitch.
If he goes forward that means that the space opened up. I don't expect from him to give it to Figueroa with a thank you note.
B2B Draft SF: Jim Beam vs Enigma/Theon
- Thread starter Edgar Allan Pillow
- Start date
If he goes forward that means that the space opened up. I don't expect from him to give it to Figueroa with a thank you note.
And the voters are buying this shit?!?
Why would we take it to the center of the pitch when the flank is wide open and Figo or Messi are all alone there? Our players aren't idiots. They will exploit the space left behind not knock it about in the center.
Because we scored.
It was simple question. Who covers for Facchetti when he goes up, you said that he's on his own and our team is expected not to pass it into that direction. For some reason.
Seems that the voters are buying your 'shite' so far so I didn't get the memo..
There are 6 players attacking and defending at all times in these set up.
Wait a second. Are you really implying that my FB can't attack in this formation?
Never said that.
Nope. And them attacking is really what we want them to do. Leaving a huge space behind as any other diamond where the primary width comes from the full backs and as @BIG DUNK mentioned as well the primary width of the side you are copying came from the full backs.
Then who is covering for Facchetti when we get the ball back and hit you on the counter? Or you will score 100 goals and that would never happen?
It's Facchetti, not Forest Gump running out of the pitch ffs.
100 is a bit harsh on your team.
Tigana, Rijkaard and the whole defensive line will cover. Great tactics, open the space for Facchetti because we will get the ball maybe. If he goes forward you're on the backfoot not me.
So Tigana who is your RCM will cover for Facchetti who is your LB?
Anyone but Iniesta who is your LCM in your formation then.
Sorry the whole 10 players including Blokhin and Kalle will cover.So Tigana who is your RCM will cover for Facchetti who is your LB?
Anyone but Iniesta who is your LCM in your formation then.
Facchetti going forward.
Yup, was expecting another one liner, 'serious' answer
But again when the stand up comedy is working in this game why change it..Because the notion that Facchetti can't attack is hilarious tbhYup, was expecting another one liner, 'serious' answer
And who said that? The notion is exactly that's Facchetti's main role in this game for you. The notion is that he will leave huge space behind when he attacks on regular basis which someone (the side midfielder have to cover). But keep with the deceptive one liners it's working for you.
And I love to bring the best out of you in the debate.
There is no huge space behind him when the team will be aware he went forward. It is a pretty simple concept.
So when the team is aware he went forward someone has to cover for him which was the argument all along. That someone is usually the side midfielder in your formation (Iniesta). It's a basic thing in football. Your answer was that 10 people would cover for him or Tigana who is on the other side and has Brehme, Davids and Cristiano to worry about on his own.
One liners?
I asked you about the press? You won't press
Midfield? Having the edge.
Work-rate? More on my side.
You are hanging on my FB (Goat ones btw, yep I also have goats) like a drunkin sailor.
Google ---> breaking a diamond; not through the flanks
I asked you about the press? You won't press
Midfield? Having the edge.
Work-rate? More on my side.
You are hanging on my FB (Goat ones btw, yep I also have goats) like a drunkin sailor.
Google ---> breaking a diamond; not through the flanks
And it isn't even a diamond
How the feck are you going through my midfield? To change the tune...
Oh, pound for pound. And am putting one liners.
If I go through I will pick one of your players and sit him on the bench because you annoyed the shit out of me
I've already explained in a lengthy post so I'll just put it up once again and leave it for the voters to decide:
----------------------------------------------------
Vogts played 270 minutes against Blokhin shutting him down.
Again we don't need Romario and Ronaldo to run like mad men to close players down. We're not playing tiki - taka Barca. I've provided a long, long post on Messi's creative side and it is not only about him in this game. There is no clash of characters, no overlapping in zones, but rather creative players and deadly finishers in our side.
You talked about pushing us wide as some kind of a master plan being to negate GOAT forwards, but let's break up the diamond you are sporting as some kind of Kryptonite:
Weaknesses
- Lack of Width: The Diamond is a very narrow formation due to the lack of advanced wide players. This means that the flanks can only be used during attacks by either a drifting center forward or midfielder, or a fullback. The first option reduces the potency of the attack by a great margin, so fullbacks are the only viable option.
- Exposure to Counterattacks: When the fullbacks go on the overlap to compensate for a lack of wide attacking players, the backline is left exposed to a potential counterattack. This is slightly mitigated by the defensive midfielder who sits back, but even a 3-v-3 counterattacking situation can easily go bad for the defending team.
- Physical Strain: The Diamond requires extremely fit central midfielders to cover ground, and fullbacks who can bomb up and down the pitch with ease. This may put a strain on the players, resulting in a possible decrease in efficiency over the course of the game or season.
To reiterate on above points:
There are a couple of main weaknesses to the diamond formation. Firstly, if the two central midfielders are narrow, it lacks a lot of width and concedes dangerous overlap opportunities on the flanks(something you would happily do). However, should one of the central midfielders pull wide to cover the full-back, large spaces can appear in the middle of the pitch. This means that the formation can be extremely vulnerable defensively. Using Liverpool as an example (as harms did), it could be argued that a less cavalier formation might well have been the key to winning the title; using the diamond, the team were counter-attacked ruthlessly at both Chelsea and Crystal Palace, both games proving extremely costly.
The diamond formation also demands a huge workload. On the full-backs, who are given the sole responsibility for an entire wing of the pitch; on the box-to-box players, who have to make a huge effort in both defence and attack; and finally, on the deep-lying playmaker. In this system, the deepest midfielder is the start point of the attacks, but often also has to act as the last line of defence – an auxiliary third centre-back. Once more, we can look at Liverpool (for the last time, I promise) and Steven Gerrard’s infamous slip to see how costly a mistake in this position can be.
Attacking fullbacks or wingbacks you use give you the width of your team. This, however, leaves gaps in the four-man defense, placing greater pressure on the central defenders and the lone defensive midfielder.
In essence you have much less margin for error:
- One mistake leaves huge opportunity for Romario, Messi, Ronaldo, Figo to exploit.
- Your side midfielders will be overworked and can't be at two places at the same time. The midfield domination you base your whole strategy on will need your midfielders to put a huge workload and again covering an absolute elite attackers.
- Very vulnerable on counter. One pass from deep overlaps your high up full backs leaving 3 vs 3 scenarios that could be easily exploited by our forwards.
And last but not least:
For all the comparison to Messi/Barca and other stuff Iniesta didn't play as a side midfielder in a diamond did he? He is not perfect in defensive sense - yes he will press he will contribute but he will not chase up and down players like a mad man, Davids style, to compensate for a player wide.
On top of that you criticized our CB pair due to being ball playing defenders, yet now you give it as a huge advantage having forwards that will press high. Having forwards that will press high against CB's that are very comfortable on the ball (the very best probably) will again leave huge gaps behind and if they are beaten you will easily be hit on a counter.
We aren't building this side around Messi and there lies the difference. Messi is integral part - of course but that doesn't mean he's our only source that would win us the game - far from it! It was never our intention. In terms of who is winning the game I'd say it's one way street and I just can't see you outscoring us.
You talk about Platini, but he comes in a zone where we have one of the best DM's in the game in Redondo, one of the best defensive box to box in Davids who will close him down in no time, and on top of that he's facing Figueroa and Baresi next and Buffon as the last line of defence.
Compare it on the other side where you have 2 full backs high up, Scirea combating Cristiano in the air:
and older Desailly fending off peak Romario:
You are doing a fantastic job defending your team and to me overselling your team, kudos for that, but proper encounter between the sides I just can't see it as well as not taking the likes of Messi, Romario, Baresi, Figueroa, Romario, Davids and Redondo in your side. I find that pretty hard to believe.
Well no one our players will make it at your team so naturally they have to sit on the bench right
as for me thinking it's a diamond:
http://www.redcafe.net/threads/b2b-draft-sf-jim-beam-vs-enigma-theon.449044/page-2#post-24415550
yeah wonder why...
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id take Buffon.
They will carry the water.Well no one our players will make it at your team so naturally they have to sit on the bench right
But wait, who will cover for them?
It's long and boring.I've already explained in a lengthy post so I'll just put it up once again and leave it for the voters to decide:
----------------------------------------------------
Vogts played 270 minutes against Blokhin shutting him down.
Again we don't need Romario and Ronaldo to run like mad men to close players down. We're not playing tiki - taka Barca. I've provided a long, long post on Messi's creative side and it is not only about him in this game. There is no clash of characters, no overlapping in zones, but rather creative players and deadly finishers in our side.
You talked about pushing us wide as some kind of a master plan being to negate GOAT forwards, but let's break up the diamond you are sporting as some kind of Kryptonite:
Weaknesses
- Lack of Width: The Diamond is a very narrow formation due to the lack of advanced wide players. This means that the flanks can only be used during attacks by either a drifting center forward or midfielder, or a fullback. The first option reduces the potency of the attack by a great margin, so fullbacks are the only viable option.
- Exposure to Counterattacks: When the fullbacks go on the overlap to compensate for a lack of wide attacking players, the backline is left exposed to a potential counterattack. This is slightly mitigated by the defensive midfielder who sits back, but even a 3-v-3 counterattacking situation can easily go bad for the defending team.
- Physical Strain: The Diamond requires extremely fit central midfielders to cover ground, and fullbacks who can bomb up and down the pitch with ease. This may put a strain on the players, resulting in a possible decrease in efficiency over the course of the game or season.
To reiterate on above points:
There are a couple of main weaknesses to the diamond formation. Firstly, if the two central midfielders are narrow, it lacks a lot of width and concedes dangerous overlap opportunities on the flanks(something you would happily do). However, should one of the central midfielders pull wide to cover the full-back, large spaces can appear in the middle of the pitch. This means that the formation can be extremely vulnerable defensively. Using Liverpool as an example (as harms did), it could be argued that a less cavalier formation might well have been the key to winning the title; using the diamond, the team were counter-attacked ruthlessly at both Chelsea and Crystal Palace, both games proving extremely costly.
The diamond formation also demands a huge workload. On the full-backs, who are given the sole responsibility for an entire wing of the pitch; on the box-to-box players, who have to make a huge effort in both defence and attack; and finally, on the deep-lying playmaker. In this system, the deepest midfielder is the start point of the attacks, but often also has to act as the last line of defence – an auxiliary third centre-back. Once more, we can look at Liverpool (for the last time, I promise) and Steven Gerrard’s infamous slip to see how costly a mistake in this position can be.
Attacking fullbacks or wingbacks you use give you the width of your team. This, however, leaves gaps in the four-man defense, placing greater pressure on the central defenders and the lone defensive midfielder.
In essence you have much less margin for error:
- One mistake leaves huge opportunity for Romario, Messi, Ronaldo, Figo to exploit.
- Your side midfielders will be overworked and can't be at two places at the same time. The midfield domination you base your whole strategy on will need your midfielders to put a huge workload and again covering an absolute elite attackers.
- Very vulnerable on counter. One pass from deep overlaps your high up full backs leaving 3 vs 3 scenarios that could be easily exploited by our forwards.
And last but not least:
For all the comparison to Messi/Barca and other stuff Iniesta didn't play as a side midfielder in a diamond did he? He is not perfect in defensive sense - yes he will press he will contribute but he will not chase up and down players like a mad man, Davids style, to compensate for a player wide.
On top of that you criticized our CB pair due to being ball playing defenders, yet now you give it as a huge advantage having forwards that will press high. Having forwards that will press high against CB's that are very comfortable on the ball (the very best probably) will again leave huge gaps behind and if they are beaten you will easily be hit on a counter.
We aren't building this side around Messi and there lies the difference. Messi is integral part - of course but that doesn't mean he's our only source that would win us the game - far from it! It was never our intention. In terms of who is winning the game I'd say it's one way street and I just can't see you outscoring us.
You talk about Platini, but he comes in a zone where we have one of the best DM's in the game in Redondo, one of the best defensive box to box in Davids who will close him down in no time, and on top of that he's facing Figueroa and Baresi next and Buffon as the last line of defence.
Compare it on the other side where you have 2 full backs high up, Scirea combating Cristiano in the air:
and older Desailly fending off peak Romario:
You are doing a fantastic job defending your team and to me overselling your team, kudos for that, but proper encounter between the sides I just can't see it as well as not taking the likes of Messi, Romario, Baresi, Figueroa, Romario, Davids and Redondo in your side. I find that pretty hard to believe.
It's pretty clear what Enigma is getting at and its not an unreasonable point at all - find it really confusing why you think it is. In a diamond or 4-2-2-2 (or any narrow set up) there is a reliance on fullbacks to provide some sort of width. You have been clear that is part of Facchetti's role, which he's great at but it means that he will leave gaps going forward which can be exploited.
Enigma is making the observation that you have Iniesta as the LCM on that side, effectively a #10 or at best advanced #8 who is absolutely not the person you want covering for an advancing fullback.
Your answer on his question has been pretty evasive to be honest - Tigana clearly isn't covering for him (that made zero sense given he's on the opposite side) and in the post I have just quoted your answer is basically "There is no space behind him - It's not a problem, really!" which is rather unconvincing.
At the end of the day you're facing a dual threat on the right wing of Figo and Lionel Messi in a team loaded with players who can transition quickly from the back (Baresi, Figueroa, Redondo, Brehme) - it's about as stacked a wide threat as you could muster so asking for some sort of view on how you address it isn't unreasonable. It's not hard to envisage a counter breaking with Figo hugging the touch line on the right, dragging Facchetti over, whilst Messi makes those runs between fullback / left centre back (i.e. between Facchetti and Desailly) - that's a huge problem.
Page 5 and he still thinks it's a diamond.
not his fault your dumbass doesnt know how to make a square.
Can I move Rijkaard a bit on the left while Facchetti is attacking?
Your huge problem imo is that you will not take control of the midfield. Which is the main thing for Messi to thrive.
Mate in terms of what Enigma is talking about this is even less secure than a diamond - A diamond would have a proper LCM offering protection in that area, whilst this set up has an offensive play-making attacking midfielder. That's all he's saying.
I'm just catching up with the discussion but throughout it you're basically just trying to dismiss anything Enigma has raised without engaging with any of his points IMO. Quipping that it's a magic square and not a diamond is obviously true, but it doesn't respond or deal with the underlying point (in fact as I said, it magnifies the point as that left side would be a lot more solid with a Davids / LCM than an Iniesta / AM).
There is Tigana and Rijkaard at the base.
Tigana, Rijkaard, Davids? You think that is optimal?
And am not dissmising anything. Any question I raised he didn't answer. Press? Possession based? How will Messi handle Rijkaard in attack?
I don't know why you keep banging on the flanks. I will take that every time if it means Messi will be less involved.
Woah, just stumbled on this whole chain of argument and have no idea where this has come from!I'll try to restrain myself from posting — as usual, I'm getting defensive about my choice and begin to argue for one team
The young version shouldn't be played as a number 10. He didn't have the consistency and vision/understanding of the game that he learned throughout the years. So yeah, a young version of Messi should be placed either as a false 9 or as a young winger. You can't just take the workrate of one version, creativity of the other and say that this is his peak.
Some of the points you made have merit to them (particularly around workrate) and I can see what you're getting at - at the same time though those things IMO are massively outweighed by the quality of those players and what they bring in terms of technique, creativity and goal threat. You don't pick Romario, Ronaldo or Messi because they're always selfless team players who will sprint 50 yards back to make a tackle. You pick them because they win you games and score goals.
But yeah, whilst I agree with some of your points, on the above relating to Messi.. I just do not agree at all. There isn't a black and white distinction between a young 18 year old Messi and a mature late-20's playmaking version. That transition to becoming more of a playmaker was a gradual development, Messi didn't get to 29 and suddenly realise how to pass - saying that he lacked vision / understanding of the game as a peak 22-27 year old for example is nonsense.
Here is a catalogue of assists from Messi in the 2012 season - a season where he scored 70+ goals and probably peaked individually in terms of dribbling/finishing, whilst also being part of a pressing Guardiola which carried no passengers defensively:
Messi clearly managed to combine creativity/passing with dribbling/finishing ability - I agree he focuses more on the playmaking aspect now that his explosiveness has diminished, but his ability to slice a defence open with a pass has always been something he's capable off.
He was always capable of incredible passes but it’s not the only thing that is required from a number 10, especially with a clear cut number 9 in front of him. There is no way that you can shoehorn a young Messi as a number 10 is that system and say that it’s a system that gets the very best of him, even though he’ll still contribute insane numbers in both goals and assists.
He was not a playmaker then, he was a forward with great, even outstanding passing. Today’s Messi is better in that zone, but it’s not a coincidence that the young Messi was never played there and started on a right wing or as a false 9.
He was not a playmaker then, he was a forward with great, even outstanding passing. Today’s Messi is better in that zone, but it’s not a coincidence that the young Messi was never played there and started on a right wing or as a false 9.
I even agree. Messi would still be great in that role and hard to contain for most midfields.
But, if I have to take a chance would rather blocked that zone of his and try to reduce his role and influence. It is a risk considering how many great players you have, but he is still the main guy in the build-up. If you are talking about my cover for flanks being not so great there is no denying that his zone is a nightmare to operate.
Have to work, good luck. Love you enigma and I know it is mutual!
Contributing an insane amount of goals and assists is the whole point of picking Messi - that's the aim of the game. You're point around being a passenger out of possession is nonsense as in that Guardiola era he was part of a high-pressing system and I believe Enigma posted some stats backing that up, so he wouldn't just score and create from that position, though I wouldn't mind if he did.
Of course there's no coincidence that Messi played as a false #9 in that era - Guardiola had the best midfield unit of all time to work with and stylistically has always defaulted to a 4-3-3 set up. With that said, I'm not sure how substantial the difference is between a roaming false #9 role and the goalscoring #10 position he's taking up here - loads of false #9's have shown they can do both roles, from Totti to Cruyff and there are clear overlaps between the two positions.
Messi has also of course demonstrated he can do both roles, but rather than acknowledge that there's probably some overlap between the two positions you're viewing it as a signal that Messi underwent some transformation in his ability to act as a playmaker or slice through a pass - which is not correct.
Your thoughts on Facchetti in this role? I think it's pretty important part of the duel considering his role in the diamond(square)
any last votes? It has been a kinda disappointing vote turn out considering it's an all time draft and pretty much all players are well known.