B2B Draft SF: MJJ vs 2mufc0

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

VS

TEAM MJJ

How to build a perfect side? You start off with a German base, probably the two best German midfielders of all time in Schweinsteiger and Matthaus. Both of the men have performed to the highest standards in the biggest stage of them all. Matthaus in 1990 did a wonderful job on the best Argentine of all time to give Germany the victory and Schweinsteiger repeated the feat with another legendary Argentine number ten.

To lead the midfield, you go to the best attackers in the game of football. The Brazilians! To start off with I have the best Brazilian number ten in Zico, partnered with the best left winger in Ronaldinho and the best right winger in Garrincha. Leading this fearsome trio, is el fenomeno himself Ronaldo. Each of the four is capable of winning the match single handedly by dribbling past a back line and scoring. If they get fouled, Zico and Ronaldinho will relish the number of free kicks they get. Ronaldo and Ronaldinho won a world cup together, Garrincha has performed well previously with a dominant number ten and Zico shared the ball with Socrates in his heyday. I see no problem with how the four will gel and the match will be played to the samba beat.

For defense, you look towards the Germans and Italians. If you can’t find any Italians you settle for the next best thing i.e. players who hone their craft in the Italian league. I have the german backline that proved its mettle against one of the best sides football has ever seen i.e Cruyff legendary total football side. Adding to that defense, is the tractor Zanetti. One of the most consistent and defensively astute fullbacks of all time.

Why I will win:-

· Real life match-ups are in my favour. Garrincha vs Santos, Ronaldo vs Nesta, Matthaus vs Maradona.

· A diamond relies very heavily on the production from the fullbacks, Cafu is up against Ronaldinho and Breitner and will need a lot of help from Neeskens.


TEAM 2MUFC0

I am switching to a diamond formation this game to get the best out of the two greatest players of all time Pele & Maradona. One of the main reasons i picked Pele was because of his malleability to play with other GOAT players. Here, he has less play making responsibility and is tasked with being more direct to to get the goals. Maradona plays in his favoured no.10 role pulling the strings, playing in Pele & Puskas who were ruthless infront of goal, scoring a staggering 1655 goal between them. They will also be switching and roaming making it difficult for the opposition to mark.

The mercurial front 3 are supported by two of the best B2B midfielders of all time in Neeskens & Falcao able to assist in attacks and also provide industrious defensive cover. Zito is at the base of the midfield as the defensive midfielder shielding the defence as well as providing distribution forward.

Both full backs are also superb going forward as well as defensively sound, able to pick their moments and provide width as well as provide the defensive cover required. Two of the greatest all-round modern defenders Nesta & Rio provide a watertight defensive core while also having elite level distribution. One of the greatest keepers of all time shields the goal in Maier.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

@MJJ @2mufc0 All the best!

 

[harms]

Proven partnership should only take you far. I’m truly baffled at how Schwarzenbeck still starts for MJJ. And that’s with the likes of Kohler/Figueroa available.

2mufc0 missed the trick by not starting Gento on the left (in place of Zito). His left wing is now not really functioning attacking wise and there’s a dangerous trend of an overcentristic attack. Also, I’d rather play Puskas on the left and Pelé on the right as the Hungarian is more dependent on his strong foot.

 

[MJJ]

Proven partnership should only take you far. I’m truly baffled at how Schwarzenbeck still starts for MJJ. And that’s with the likes of Kohler/Figueroa available.

2mufc0 missed the trick by not starting Gento on the left (in place of Zito). His left wing is now not really functioning attacking wise and there’s a dangerous trend of an overcentristic attack. Also, I’d rather play Puskas on the left and Pelé on the right as the Hungarian is more dependent on his strong foot.

Schwarzenbeck and Beckenbauer did well against the likes of cruyff, who is a GOAT attacker with team set up to his strengths. I dont think they are significantly weaker than a Ferdinand and nesta partnership.

 

[Physiocrat]

I think the drafters have got GOATitice. Both sides aren't really fully optimised.

Nilton at attacking left-back without a winger in front of him doesn't work especially since Falcao didn't really operate wide IIRC.

On the other side I don't think R9 is the best striker for Garrincha due to the former's lack of heading ability and you'd want a more orthodox attacking left back in place of Breitner to get the best out of Ronaldinho.

 

[MJJ]

I think the drafters have got GOATitice. Both sides aren't really fully optimised.

Nilton at attacking left-back without a winger in front of him doesn't work especially since Falcao didn't really operate wide IIRC.

On the other side I don't think R9 is the best striker for Garrincha due to the former's lack of heading ability and you'd want a more orthodox attacking left back in place of Breitner to get the best out of Ronaldinho.

Ronaldo was a fine header of the ball? He was a complete forward.

 

[harms]

Schwarzenbeck and Beckenbauer did well against the likes of cruyff, who is a GOAT attacker with team set up to his strengths. I dont think they are significantly weaker than a Ferdinand and nesta partnership.

In one game when Vogts was man-marking him? Yes. He still won a penalty. And they were also trashed by Cruyff's Ajax a year before

 

[Physiocrat]

Ronaldo was a fine header of the ball? He was a complete forward.

I wasn't implying he was Ade Akinbiyi in the air but I reckon Vava was better than Ronaldo in the air. He can clearly head the ball to some extent but he was hardly hugely proficient at it.

This is the not the best argument but looking at PES stats database they have his heading at around 80 or just below which is fair. It's also the same as an old PES game for the PS1 which had him at 16 out of the 20 IIRC.

In an unrestricted draft you want at least one exceptional header of the ball to get the best out of Garrincha. Pele alongside R9 would work

 

[harms]

Ronaldo was a fine header of the ball? He was a complete forward.

He was fine, but I reckon he'd be a distant third in your trainings regarding this component, since you have both Seeler and Kocsis on the bench (if I remember this right)!

 

[MJJ]

In one game when Vogts was man-marking him? Yes. He still won a penalty. And they were also trashed by Cruyff's Ajax a year before

Just watched quick highlights of that as I am at work, I think the keeper had an absolute mare while you cant blame schwarzenbeck too much. Half the goals were shots from outside the box.

 

[MJJ]

I wasn't implying he was Ade Akinbiyi in the air but I reckon Vava was better than Ronaldo in the air. He can clearly head the ball to some extent but he was hardly hugely proficient at it.

This is the not the best argument but looking at PES stats database they have his heading at around 80 or just below which is fair. It's also the same as an old PES game for the PS1 which had him at 16 out of the 20 IIRC.

In an unrestricted draft you want at least one exceptional header of the ball to get the best out of Garrincha. Pele alongside R9 would work

He was fine, but I reckon he'd be a distant third in your trainings regarding this component, since you have both Seeler and Kocsis on the bench (if I remember this right)!

True he isn't as good a header as that lot but what you lose out in heading, you gain in pace, interplay and dribbling abilities.

 

[Physiocrat]

True he isn't as good a header as that lot but what you lose out in heading, you gain in pace, interplay and dribbling abilities.

True, but at the expense of Garrincha's influence

 

[MJJ]

True, but at the expense of Garrincha's influence

It lessens one bow in garrinchas arsenal but having ronaldo there means that the defense cant sit up too high or double team garrincha which will improve his game more.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

Exactly how many headers from Garrincha crosses lead to goals in 58 and 62?

From what I have seen, most of the goals were low crosses drilled from him.

I myself have been guilty of thinking Kocsis as soon as I pick Garrincha, but Vava wasn't really tall (5.7) or that great in the air from what I have seen.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Agree with GSTQ. Garrincha is not really a crosser, so not being top notch in heading is not really a big flaw. What I dislike about MJJs team is that almost all his attack are best with the ball at their feet. They all are very similar ball-hoggers rather than complement each other. And Schwarzenbeck needs upgrading. Garrincha vs Nilton is advantage MJJ though.

Didn't really think mufc's attacking trio would work together, but the switch to a diamond help a lot. Agree on Puskas and Pele to be swapped. With Diego pulling strings, I can see them working well together. Zito needs upgrading.

 

[2mufc0]

Agree with GSTQ. Garrincha is not really a crosser, so not being top notch in heading is not really a big flaw. What I dislike about MJJs team is that almost all his attack are best with the ball at their feet. They all are very similar ball-hoggers rather than complement each other. And Schwarzenbeck needs upgrading. Garrincha vs Nilton is advantage MJJ though.

Didn't really think mufc's attacking trio would work together, but the switch to a diamond help a lot. Agree on Puskas and Pele to be swapped. With Diego pulling strings, I can see them working well together. Zito needs upgrading.

Why is Garrincha vs Nilton an advantage?

 

[harms]

Why is Garrincha vs Nilton an advantage?

The infamous training stories.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Why is Garrincha vs Nilton an advantage?

Probably reading too much, but Garrincha was reputed to have run all over Nilton at a training session. Anyway, I still rate Garrincha as a better player of the two.

 

[2mufc0]

The infamous training stories.

Yeah heard those stories. Not sure it should be given great weight in a real match.

 

[harms]

Exactly how many headers from Garrincha crosses lead to goals in 58 and 62?

From what I have seen, most of the goals were low crosses drilled from him.

I myself have been guilty of thinking Kocsis as soon as I pick Garrincha, but Vava wasn't really tall (5.7) or that great in the air from what I have seen.

He did put enough crosses from what I've seen, but I wouldn't say that Vava was that great in the air, for example. Hence why having an all-time great header is obviously a bonus for Garrincha as now he has more options.

Edit: turn off the music immediately!

 

[2mufc0]

His left wing is now not really functioning attacking wise and there’s a dangerous trend of an overcentristic attack. Also, I’d rather play Puskas on the left and Pelé on the right as the Hungarian is more dependent on his strong foot.

Cheers for the feedback.

I think Nilton can provide some service to the left wing.

Regarding Puskás he will be interchanging with Pelé so will find himself on the left at times.

 

[harms]

Yeah heard those stories. Not sure it should be given great weight in a real match.

Yeah, I wouldn't really include them in my arguments as well, although, as Edgar said, I'd still pick Garrincha as the winner in this battle.

 

[GodShaveTheQueen]

He did put enough crosses from what I've seen, but I wouldn't say that Vava was that great in the air, for example. Hence why having an all-time great header is obviously a bonus for Garrincha as now he has more options.

Edit: turn off the music immediately!

Of course he put in crosses. Van Basten vs R9 is a battle for ages which Fenomeno has been winning often. Two times in this draft already (Will did the same). Brazilian quartlet might have been difficult to pass though.

 

[Enigma_87]

@2mufc0 this is latter Puskas you are fielding right?

Can’t wrap my head around Pele and Maradona working together let alone if you add peak Puskas into that.

As for MJJ I really thought that he will pick Kohler rather than Matthaus as HGS is a bit off his depth here.

 

[2mufc0]

@2mufc0 this is latter Puskas you are fielding right?

Can’t wrap my head around Pele and Maradona working together let alone if you add peak Puskas into that.

As for MJJ I really thought that he will pick Kohler rather than Matthaus as HGS is a bit off his depth here.

Be interesteding to hear why Pelé couldn't play with Diego, like Messi he is one of the few players I wouldn't have an issue with playing with other goat attackers.

 

[Moby]

Pele and Maradona in the same team. What could go wrong?

 

[Enigma_87]

Be interesteding to hear why Pelé couldn't play with Diego, like Messi he is one of the few players I wouldn't have an issue with playing with other goat attackers.

I think we had this conversation with @harms before and other drafters when combining them together. In essence you can use 17 years old Pele that plays as a second striker but peak Pele was always involved in the play and dropped deep. He, himself, considered his game closer to midfielder than to a striker, despite his goal scoring tally.

The difference between him and Messi is that the latter is used of playing on the wing and played as much as a right sided attacker as a central one.

Even in 70 WC it was Rivelino who made the way and was played on the wing so you can accommodate his more central role.

Essentially he’s an obvious threat everywhere and won’t have character issues or clash with Maradona but with peak Pele Id give him the #10 spot as you had in your previous games being the centrepiece of the team.

 

[2mufc0]

I think we had this conversation with @harms before and other drafters when combining them together. In essence you can use 17 years old Pele that plays as a second striker but peak Pele was always involved in the play and dropped deep. He, himself, considered his game closer to midfielder than to a striker, despite his goal scoring tally.

The difference between him and Messi is that the latter is used of playing on the wing and played as much as a right sided attacker as a central one.

Even in 70 WC it was Rivelino who made the way and was played on the wing so you can accommodate his more central role.

Essentially he’s an obvious threat everywhere and won’t have character issues or clash with Maradona but with peak Pele Id give him the #10 spot as you had in your previous games being the centrepiece of the team.

Fair enough.

But even the different versions of Pelé were devastating, his 17 yo version won the world cup and would still be better than most attackers in history.

 

[MJJ]

He (Garrincha) put the first ball he touched straight between my legs. A lot of people thought I would be offended but they were wrong. I told the directors there and then that they had to sign him.

He (Matthaus) is the best rival I've ever had. I guess that's enough to define him

The worst experience I ever had was playing against Ronaldo when we faced Internazionale in the 1998 UEFA Cup Final in Paris. He’s an incredible player. I have watched that game on video so many times since then, trying to work out what I did wrong. We lost 3-0 but I don’t think now it was my fault. Ronaldo was simply unstoppable. He is so quick he makes everyone else look as if they are standing still

Just emphasising what my OP said, it will be practically impossible stopping my side on the counter or in quick transitions.

I think the drafters have got GOATitice. Both sides aren't really fully optimised.

Nilton at attacking left-back without a winger in front of him doesn't work especially since Falcao didn't really operate wide IIRC.

On the other side I don't think R9 is the best striker for Garrincha due to the former's lack of heading ability and you'd want a more orthodox attacking left back in place of Breitner to get the best out of Ronaldinho.

Exactly, you need two attacking fullback to make a diamond work. Santos here really stints the left hand side of @2mufc0 and cafu alone cant provide width and deal with ronaldinho and breitner.[/QUOTE]

 

[Enigma_87]

Fair enough.

But even the different versions of Pelé were devastating, his 17 yo version won the world cup and would still be better than most attackers in history.

Yup. That’s reasonable.

Wonder if @MJJ picked Matthaus with having to face Maradona in mind

 

[MJJ]

Yup. That’s reasonable.

Wonder if @MJJ picked Matthaus with having to face Maradona in mind

Somebody picked Figueroa before I could

 

[2mufc0]

Just emphasising what my OP said, it will be practically impossible stopping my side on the counter or in quick transitions.



Exactly, you need two attacking fullback to make a diamond work. Santos here really stints the left hand side of @2mufc0 and cafu alone cant provide width and deal with ronaldinho and breitner.

Breitner wasn't an overlapper either, he liked to drift central even when playing left back. If you watch 1974 world cup he often found himself in midfield positions. No way he's providing width or lapping around Dinho.

The bigger threat is Pelé /Puskás vs Schwarzenbeck here I think.

 

[2mufc0]

For the record R9 has 2 goals in 5 games vs Nesta, so not the whitewash @MJJ is making out.

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/alessandro-nesta/spielegegeneinander/spieler/4171

 

[2mufc0]

Yup. That’s reasonable.

Wonder if @MJJ picked Matthaus with having to face Maradona in mind

Yeah Maradona did say he was his toughest opponent but also won a world cup final against him. Good battle.

 

[MJJ]

Breitner wasn't an overlapper either, he liked to drift central even when playing left back. If you watch 1974 world cup he often found himself in midfield positions. No way he's providing width or lapping around Dinho.

The bigger threat is Pelé /Puskás vs Schwarzenbeck here I think.

Yes and if he was a wing back in a back four it would be problematic. As it is, he is perfectly capable of supporting ronaldinho here.

He was also not a Leo junior type fullback, look at the video before. He was providing width by picking the ball near the touch line, crossing it in or curring inside. Everything you want a modern fullback to do and together the tandem will be too much for cafu.


On the other hand, your left side is completely stinted and cafu wont be contributing much on the right.

You want to hedge your bets against a core of schweign,matthaus,beckenbauer? Be my guest.

Zito against Zico is going to be a mismatch as well. Torres tore a Ferdinand Vidic partnership to shred, wonder what R9 will do to Ferdinand if they ever faced off. Oh wait

 

[MJJ]

For the record R9 has 2 goals in 5 games vs Nesta, so not the whitewash @MJJ is making out.

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/alessandro-nesta/spielegegeneinander/spieler/4171

You mean not the white wash nesta is making out? What's the record of ronaldo against ferdinand btw?

 

[2mufc0]

You mean not the white wash nesta is making out? What's the record of ronaldo against ferdinand btw?

Yes a little context would be beneficial here, Rio played in a poor defence then, Silvestre? Brown? O'shea? . Here he's partnered with much superior defensive partners. Plus, none of those goals Rio was at fault for.

Players always provide glowing reviews of fellow players it's nothing new, what do you expect Nesta to say? BTW there are also many quotes made by Beckenbauer on Pelé, even the infamous nutmeg where he put him on his arse. But it's not a good thought to claim these players will get destroyed based on anecdotes .

 

[2mufc0]

Yes and if he was a wing back in a back four it would be problematic. As it is, he is perfectly capable of supporting ronaldinho here.

He was also not a Leo junior type fullback, look at the video before. He was providing width by picking the ball near the touch line, crossing it in or curring inside. Everything you want a modern fullback to do and together the tandem will be too much for cafu.


On the other hand, your left side is completely stinted and cafu wont be contributing much on the right.

You want to hedge your bets against a core of schweign,matthaus,beckenbauer? Be my guest.

Zito against Zico is going to be a mismatch as well. Torres tore a Ferdinand Vidic partnership to shred, wonder what R9 will do to Ferdinand if they ever faced off. Oh wait

Funnily enough he's often compared to Leo as a full back, will have to disagree on this point.

 

[2mufc0]

Pele and Maradona in the same team. What could go wrong?

Yup

 

[Physiocrat]

I think we had this conversation with @harms before and other drafters when combining them together. In essence you can use 17 years old Pele that plays as a second striker but peak Pele was always involved in the play and dropped deep. He, himself, considered his game closer to midfielder than to a striker, despite his goal scoring tally.

The difference between him and Messi is that the latter is used of playing on the wing and played as much as a right sided attacker as a central one.

Even in 70 WC it was Rivelino who made the way and was played on the wing so you can accommodate his more central role.

Essentially he’s an obvious threat everywhere and won’t have character issues or clash with Maradona but with peak Pele Id give him the #10 spot as you had in your previous games being the centrepiece of the team.

Isn't there another Pele? The one between say 62-68 who was between the style of 58 and 70? From my reading about him and some footage from the time it seems correct