Ball retention

Champ

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I believe that you are still incorrect. Let me put it in a different exaggerate way. If you have 100% of the ball and the other team have 0% don't you think you got better chance of winning?

As I said earlier that having most possession is not everything because of quality, tactics and so on but it increases your chance of winning. If we are talking about possession in one attack (move) during a game then it all depends on players, quality, tactics, little bit of luck and so on. However having more ball in one game should give you more chances of winning if you use your possession in right way.

Here is one article about possession and win. A bit old but still. I would be glad if you could present to me with some articles or reports that backs you theory. Because if I'm wrong I'll happily hold my hands up.
I'm not incorrect, please read 'the numbers game: How everything you know about football is wrong'
Will open your eyes to the game and how stats and the game itself is analysed.
Also have a read of this article: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/competitions/champions-league/10793482/Do-football-possession-statistics-indicate-which-team-will-win-Not-necessarily.html
Also, it's an impossibility to have a game with 100% possession with one team, granted you were trying to make an example but it's an impossible scenario.
 

r0663664

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I don't think the players are poor. Tom and Pereira just need more time and confidence. I think confidences will make a world of difference. Having a strong back 4 will allow them to express themselves. I think we have to be patience with these 2. For Pereira, stop making himself available is being afraid to be caught in a counter attack. Let's see as the season progresses.
 

90 + 5min

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I'm not incorrect, please read 'the numbers game: How everything you know about football is wrong'
Will open your eyes to the game and how stats and the game itself is analysed.
Also have a read of this article: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/competitions/champions-league/10793482/Do-football-possession-statistics-indicate-which-team-will-win-Not-necessarily.html
Also, it's an impossibility to have a game with 100% possession with one team, granted you were trying to make an example but it's an impossible scenario.
I've read it. And the telegraph-link you mentioned was exactly the one I posted. Even that article tells you: "In this season’s Premier League, the team with more possession has won 55.3 per cent of games. In the Champions League, the figure is 66.7 per cent. That would seem to indicate a strong correlation between keeping the ball and winning the game."

I never said that you are expected to win if you got more possession. What I'm saying that your chances increases. The more % you got on the ball the more time you have to score and it is less time for the other team to score. It is no science. Just basics. Of course, there are other factors, but it does not affect that more ball possession means higher chances of winning. If we are talking best leagues.

Let us just look what happened yesterday in major European leagues. (Germany, England, Spain, France, Netherlands. Portugal). % is possession.

England (7 games. More % and win: 3 games. Less % and win: 2 games)
Germany (6 games. More % and win: 3 games. Less % and win: 2 games)
Spain (5 games. More % win: 0 games Less % and win: 3 games)
France (6 games. More % and win: 2 games. Less % and win: 2 games)
Netherlands (3 games. More % and win: 2 games. Less % and win: 1 game)
Portugal (3 games. More % and win : 2 games. Less % and win: 1 game )

So if we take look at yesterdays games we can see that:

More % and win: 40% of games
Less % and win: 37% of games
Draws: 23% of games...

Conclusion: More % in possesion gives you more chance of winning. Yesterday. ;)


You wrote "The more passes you make, the less chance you have of scoring." and I don't still think you are right. Best is to agree that we dont agree. :)
 

Champ

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I've read it. And the telegraph-link you mentioned was exactly the one I posted. Even that article tells you: "In this season’s Premier League, the team with more possession has won 55.3 per cent of games. In the Champions League, the figure is 66.7 per cent. That would seem to indicate a strong correlation between keeping the ball and winning the game."

I never said that you are expected to win if you got more possession. What I'm saying that your chances increases. The more % you got on the ball the more time you have to score and it is less time for the other team to score. It is no science. Just basics. Of course, there are other factors, but it does not affect that more ball possession means higher chances of winning. If we are talking best leagues.

Let us just look what happened yesterday in major European leagues. (Germany, England, Spain, France, Netherlands. Portugal). % is possession.

England (7 games. More % and win: 3 games. Less % and win: 2 games)
Germany (6 games. More % and win: 3 games. Less % and win: 2 games)
Spain (5 games. More % win: 0 games Less % and win: 3 games)
France (6 games. More % and win: 2 games. Less % and win: 2 games)
Netherlands (3 games. More % and win: 2 games. Less % and win: 1 game)
Portugal (3 games. More % and win : 2 games. Less % and win: 1 game )

So if we take look at yesterdays games we can see that:

More % and win: 40% of games
Less % and win: 37% of games
Draws: 23% of games...

Conclusion: More % in possesion gives you more chance of winning. Yesterday. ;)


You wrote "The more passes you make, the less chance you have of scoring." and I don't still think you are right. Best is to agree that we dont agree. :)
I understand what you're saying.
I don't think you understand what I'm saying though.
If you've read that book you should know that it explicitly highlights that the more passes you make the less likely you are to score.
The teams with more possession generally tend to be the better teams, City, Liverpool, Arsenal etc, this doesn't mean that more possession will win you more games. Take the strikers out of the equation and you have a different story.

My point is highlighted by looking at the goalscorers for the teams mentioned above. Two strikers for Arsenal, Sterling was the furthest forward on average for City, strikers for Liverpool. Yes football is a team game, and yes you won't win a game by not having the ball at all, but it is possible to win a game by not having the ball very often, Spurs showed that the other day, admittedly they didn't win but they were clinical when it counted.
Having the ball more often doesn't necessarily lead to more chances. The stats prove this, and yes I'm sure people will point out, as you have, that teams that win tend to have more possession, but this is generally because they have the better players, and not necessarily because of ball retention.
 

Foxbatt

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I think this ball possession thing has been misquoted. It was Cruijff who said that the best defend in football is to have possession on the opponents half. He is right in that as is more in everything he has said.
Possession for the sake of possession is crap I agree. I remember a pass completion stat in one game and Carrick and Fletcher had a such high ratio we who watched the match could not believe it and then we discovered a huge majority of those passes were just between them. Short passes. It is how you use the ball to keep possession and how you move the ball that is important.
 

Devil81

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I'd say our inability to string four passes together from the midfield through attack is what's damaging our chances of victory.

Sad thing is the two players that look most comfortable on the ball are the two big defenders in Lindelof and Maguire.

Pogba the superstar gives it away cheaply trying to be clever, Mctomminay is a slack passer and Rashford, Lingard and Martial are trying flicks and tricks when a simple hold and pass is needed.

It will come back to haunt us against a bigger better side, City or Liverpool would punish us.
 

ayushreddevil9

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I'd say our inability to string four passes together from the midfield through attack is what's damaging our chances of victory.

Sad thing is the two players that look most comfortable on the ball are the two big defenders in Lindelof and Maguire.

Pogba the superstar gives it away cheaply trying to be clever, Mctomminay is a slack passer and Rashford, Lingard and Martial are trying flicks and tricks when a simple hold and pass is needed.

It will come back to haunt us against a bigger better side, City or Liverpool would punish us.
Yeah its so frustrating. He just can not try to keep it simple.

Has no problems doing the same for France so :o
 

Greck

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Imo the flicks aren't the problem per se. The overall moves just aren't well orchestrated. Not yet. We used to have Rooney, Tevez and Ronaldo do the same but the difference was they were on the same wavelength and the sheer lethality of having Tevez peforming a well weighted flick into the path of a rampaging Ronaldo was something else.
 

Devil81

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Imo the flicks aren't the problem per se. The overall moves just aren't well orchestrated. Not yet. We used to have Rooney, Tevez and Ronaldo do the same but the difference was they were on the same wavelength and the sheer lethality of having Tevez peforming a well weighted flick into the path of a rampaging Ronaldo was something else.
Lets have it right the flicks aren't coming off so yes they are the problem as they break down what should be an attack.
 

Josh 76

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It always seems who ever we play have better ball retention than us.
Maybe I should put this post on 'weird feelings in football'.
 

roonster09

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We had 65% possession in the game, at one point close to first half ending, we had 70% plus possession. Ball retention wasn't the problem, we just couldn't create enough chances against well drilled Wolves side.
 

MrBrightside1989

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Our defence retained the ball well and set up a stable base for moving the hall around. Lindelof made a few risky passes but sometimes that is what is needed to cut through a team like wolves.

Unfortunately too many times the ball came into midfield and they either passed back/sideways or the ball didn't stick. Lingard was a problem for this and I wonder if Mata was playing as number 10 if he would have been able to find more gaps and passes through the wolves lines.
 

Jeppers7

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It's not retention, we need better movement and understanding in our attacking play. I'm sure Ole will be working on that.
 

Thiagoal

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We retained the ball better than I’ve seen for a long time last night so definite progress (not sure what game others were watching)

We were also playing a top six side that get men behind the ball with an amazing home record, so no team in the league is going to have dozens of opportunities!
 

Adam-Utd

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Yeah its so frustrating. He just can not try to keep it simple.

Has no problems doing the same for France so :o
:lol: name a situation he lost it by being fancy against Wolves? If anything that was the most basic I've ever seen him play.

You guys just can't help but put a dig in somewhere it's crazy.
 

kouroux

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:lol: name a situation he lost it by being fancy against Wolves? If anything that was the most basic I've ever seen him play.

You guys just can't help but put a dig in somewhere it's crazy.
I agree with this, the few times he lost possession was when he tried those high risk/high reward passes but there was a big difference in terms of carrying the ball and losing with the first game.
 

meamth

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We retained the ball better than I’ve seen for a long time last night so definite progress (not sure what game others were watching)

We were also playing a top six side that get men behind the ball with an amazing home record, so no team in the league is going to have dozens of opportunities!
Thought Pogba was solid. Couldn't recall if he was dispossessed a lot like what I read here. I don't think he got dispossessed a lot but he did make loose passes, releasing the ball too early.

I saw some people said Mctominay was atrocious. Weird observation.
I'm like you, not sure what game they were watching..
 

Adam-Utd

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I agree with this, the few times he lost possession was when he tried those high risk/high reward passes but there was a big difference in terms of carrying the ball and losing with the first game.
Exactly, and for this reason we can never slate him. To be creative you have to be risky.

Rashford doesn't score against Tottenham or Chelsea with those balls unless Pogba tries it. Playing safe will not earn you goals.

There is a difference between doing step overs or a roulette in front of your penalty box, and trying a creative pass.
 

kouroux

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Exactly, and for this reason we can never slate him. To be creative you have to be risky.

Rashford doesn't score against Tottenham or Chelsea with those balls unless Pogba tries it. Playing safe will not earn you goals.

There is a difference between doing step overs or a roulette in front of your penalty box, and trying a creative pass.
That's the difference between the first games for me. It doesn't help that Lingard hides from the ball or he simply passes it back to him with creating any movement, any opening.
 

NiceGuyEddie

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We had something like 75% possession in the first half last night and the ball retention was fantastic. Most enjoyable football I've seen us play for a long time. I don't understand why we were so much poorer in the second half, but if we could play every game like that first half we'd be laughing.
 

ayushreddevil9

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:lol: name a situation he lost it by being fancy against Wolves? If anything that was the most basic I've ever seen him play.

You guys just can't help but put a dig in somewhere it's crazy.
I don't have an agenda against him. And that was more of a general statement after witnessing him playing for us for the last 3 years. If you can't understand basic criticism then don't bother responding.

To answer your question, if you watched the game yesterday he was running with the ball and could have laid it off for the forward line. Instead he chose to flick it in the reverse direction where there were two wolves players who got hold of the ball.
 

Jacob

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Why are we getting so worried after the first game, I hope everyone appreciates the pressure the players were in yesterday's game.

Pogba is prob one of the best CM's around and people on here saying we need top CM's to dominate possession.

We have McT and Pogba who are decent CM's. People calling for Pogba to play further up but have no idea about the consequences of that.

1. If we want to play a pressing game, Pogba cannot play no. 10 because he DOES NOT press. Hence Lingard is preferred.
2. If we want to us our strengths then Pogba has to play deeper to play those passes for our pacey forwards to chase.
3. We not not have a player in the team who can get the ball to Pogba if he is further up.
4. Last season, Pogba got marked out of games by opponents CDM's, it is alot harder to maker a CM out a game.
Points 1 and 4 are solid. Wonder what Pogba's preferred position is. He doesn't float around enough to be hard target to mark out of a game.
 

settembrini

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Our ball retention was far better against Wolves than it was against Chelsea. We dominated possession and our team passing accuracy was a strong 87%.

We were also better at not getting tackled on the ball as much. (Apart from Martial who really struggled last night at times).
 

ayushreddevil9

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Exactly, and for this reason we can never slate him. To be creative you have to be risky.

Rashford doesn't score against Tottenham or Chelsea with those balls unless Pogba tries it. Playing safe will not earn you goals.

There is a difference between doing step overs or a roulette in front of your penalty box, and trying a creative pass.
Who said he doesn't have to play those balls? Its the silly flicks and the amount of unnecessary time he spends on the ball at the center of the park where I feel he should take more responsibility.
 

11101

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It's nothing new but we really need a composed CM next to McT and Pogba. Pogba will always try to make things happen and McT is a ball winner. Both good qualities but when Wolves were coming at us and the game was getting frantic we needed a player who knew how to keep it simple and kill the tempo. Every game needs to that, and neither of those two are very good at it. There was that flick from Pogba and a couple of passes from both that would usually be fine, but in that 5 or 10 minute spell they really needed to cut it out.
 

charlenefan

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We had 65% possession in the game, at one point close to first half ending, we had 70% plus possession. Ball retention wasn't the problem, we just couldn't create enough chances against well drilled Wolves side.
We retained the ball better than I’ve seen for a long time last night so definite progress (not sure what game others were watching)

We were also playing a top six side that get men behind the ball with an amazing home record, so no team in the league is going to have dozens of opportunities!
100%

I can into this thread thinking it would be a positive response to last nights game, I should have known better (other than you two of course)
 

deleon

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There is a marked improvement. Yesterday there was a concerted effort to not lose possession cheaply, especially in the first half.

From what I can recall, most of our attacks broke down from forward passes to feet, followed by some average hold up play. Martial prefers to turn his marker (with mixed success), while Rashford and Lingard prefers first time lay-offs. The latter often failed, partly because of how compact Wolves were, and partly because the players are not on the same wavelength. This is something that can realistically become better throughout the season, but it's already better than watching the team struggling to string a few passes together before directing the ball forward.
 

Twisted Nerve

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This has been one of my major gripes about Pogba for a while. He gets the ball and stands there with it at his feet , twirling in circles "where do i pass it, where do i pass it, where do i ... oh shit, someone nicked it off me"
So frustrating, he dithers so much on the ball and loses it. Every game.
 

Adam-Utd

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This has been one of my major gripes about Pogba for a while. He gets the ball and stands there with it at his feet , twirling in circles "where do i pass it, where do i pass it, where do i ... oh shit, someone nicked it off me"
So frustrating, he dithers so much on the ball and loses it. Every game.
What do you suggest? pass it backwards to defence or De Gea?