Ballon D’or 2019: who will win it? (Alleged leak: Messi 1, Van Dijk 2, Salah 3).

Daysleeper

Full Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2014
Messages
1,710
Supports
Barcelona
While it is true that Messi had the best season in terms of goals (Both in Domestic and European Football) and is without a doubt still one of the 2 best players in world football, I don't see why Messi deserves to win it over VVD. Especially when while Messi won Laliga with a side that is clearly more talented than Liverpool on paper (in reality though, its a very different story), VVD dragged a side that featured Mingolet, Moreno, Lovern, Matip, Cylne, Henderson, Lallana, Sturridge & Origi into a CL title (a CL Final apparance before that) as well as being a stupid Lovern mistake away from winning the PL while a Messi-led Barcelona bottled it in the both the CL Semi-Finals and the Copa Del Rey Final (despite pretty much dominating the competition for the last 5 years or so).

So while Messi is clearly the better player than VVD, Van Dijk has clearly had the bigger impact in terms of contributing to his teams success as the last 2 seasons have shown. Certainly Liverpool would not be doing as well as they have done recently had they stuck to a Lovern-Matip CB partnership...
Liverpool without VVD are a much better team than Barca without Messi.

messi dragged Barca far more than VVD had to drag Liverpool. VVD also has a world class goalie behind him and the best front 3 combo on the pitch in front of him.

barcelona have talent on paper but the team just isn’t all that great.

Mane deserves just as much credit for their CL run as VVD
 

Offside

Euro 2016 sweepstake winner
Joined
Jun 9, 2012
Messages
16,612
Location
Yorkshire
How does VVD even get a look in? Not the player Rio was and he never got near the Ballon D’or. First top class centre half in a while getting massively overrated. Him winning it over Messi would have been laughable.
 

zkap

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Aug 19, 2018
Messages
148
Supports
Barça
Two kind of people.

1. People who want the best player of the best performing team to win it. (VVD)
2. People who want the best player to win it. (Messi)
True, and this brings the question of determining the best performing team. The consensus seems to be that it’s the CL winner. If this is so, fine, but then players from all the other teams should be out of the picture. The very fact you have every player in the running should suggest this award is open to individual brilliance. In that environment it makes no sense to focus on team achievement, but it is what it is.

Justice served and the most deserving player wins it.
Still utterly and absolutely hilarious how far the Cristiano PR7 team can get him that he actually somehow managed to finish ahead of the likes of Mane, Salah, Sterling and Bernardo.
Ronaldo’s PR team mops the floor with everybody else. It’s a lesson in life, to be honest. I don’t mind it, it’s actually great to see. They managed to invent a rivalry where there was none and Ronaldo kept riding that wave until he was finally too old to compete even with his own team mates.

Well deserved for Messi but you do have to wonder what a defender has to do to win it if not Van Dijk this year. Just hard to compare positions.
To be fair, I think it takes a different level of ability to do what Messi does, as opposed to what VVD does. It’s always easier to neutralize than it is to create. Not underestimating defending here, as sometimes a world class defender can help the team more than a world class attacker, but in the end the talent and pure footballing ability needed to dominate as a forward eclipses that of a defender.
 

Red Keane

New Member
Newbie
Joined
May 20, 2019
Messages
53
He did not do that.
Well they all played for Liverpool last season and can count themselves as CL winners (While Buffon & Zlatan are still waiting for their CL Winners Medals), granted some of them hardly played in that winning run (and no amount of hogging the limelight by Moreno & Lovern can change that), but seriously do the likes of Matip, Henderson, Origi or even Wijnaldum (all of wholm did actually play a part) really appear to be potential CL winners at first sight, certainly if you asked the same question a few years back the answer would be pretty clear.

The fact remains though, no matter how many goals Salah & Mane score, they would have never won the CL, come close to winning another CL as well as come close to winning a PL Title had VVD not joined Liverpool, as shown by Lovern's best attempts make sure Liverpool lose games (only just recently he stupidly managed to injure one of his own teamates while playing against Napoli_.
 

Schneckerl

Full Member
Joined
Jun 17, 2016
Messages
2,578
Well deserved for Messi but you do have to wonder what a defender has to do to win it if not Van Dijk this year. Just hard to compare positions.
I think he was pretty close actually. Liverpool wins the PL and/or the Netherlands wins the Nation's League, maybe a clean sheet in the 1st leg vs Messi and the voting might be in Van Dijk's favour.
 

Sarni

nice guy, unassuming, objective United fan.
Joined
Jan 21, 2004
Messages
50,920
Location
Krakow
I just wonder- what does Lewandowski need to do more to win it. Scoring more than Messi and Ronaldo isnt enough.
Forget about winning, Bayern clearly need to do better in Europe for him to have a shot at a high place but being 8th is ridiculous after the year he has had.
 

bakalhau

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Oct 6, 2019
Messages
21
From me that I am a massive Ronaldo fan and is my personal favorite regarding both these players...

Congrats to Messi, and it's a well deserved 1st place, like it would've been had he won it the last 10 years.

Tonight is his night. For whoever loves him, like I do with my personal favorite player, enjoy seeing his happiness, and all the praise for him around the world.

Let's do our best to enjoy greatness.
 
  • Like
Reactions: SteveJ

Red Keane

New Member
Newbie
Joined
May 20, 2019
Messages
53
Liverpool without VVD are a much better team than Barca without Messi.
Not really though when you compare squad by squad (if you exclude Messi from Barcelona and VVD from Liverpool), I mean while Allison & Ter Stegen are on a similar level; Cillessen is far better than Mingolet, Alba is better on paper than Robinson; Umiti & Pique (despite his shocking performances in Anfield) are far better than Lovern & Matip, Lenglet is somewhat better than Gomez, TAA is better than Roberto, Semedo is better than Cylne, Fabinho is better than Busquets, Rakitic is better than Henderson, Arthur is better than Keita, Milner is better than Vidal, Mane is better than Coutinho (Although Liverpool where still stupid to sell him in the first place without properly replacing him 2 seasons on), Salah is better than Dembele, Malcolm is better (on paper at least) than Origi, Shaqri is better than D.Suarez, and Firminho is better than L.Suarez

So player to player, with 10 players better vs 7 players better (with 1 player on each side on the same level), its clear to see that even without Messi, Barcelona are a better side than a VVD-less Liverpool.

messi dragged Barca far more than VVD had to drag Liverpool.
That was more to do with how the team was set up (and how it is managed) as well as the actual form of many of their players. Which also (for bettter or worse) goes to show how important it is for a good manager to get the best out of their team.

VVD also has a world class goalie behind him and the best front 3 combo on the pitch in front of him.
True when it comes to Allison (who you can argue was equally important to their improvement in form in the last 2 seasons), however as Arsenal have shown in recent seasons (as well as Liverpool before VVD), its all well and good having a great attack, but if you can't defend then you might as well forget trying to win sliverware. After all there is a good reason why we only started winning CL's again after getting Rio, Vidic & VDS.

barcelona have talent on paper but the team just isn’t all that great.

Mane deserves just as much credit for their CL run as VVD
Agreed on both counts.
 

Red Keane

New Member
Newbie
Joined
May 20, 2019
Messages
53
Forget about winning, Bayern clearly need to do better in Europe for him to have a shot at a high place but being 8th is ridiculous after the year he has had.
It doesn't help is case that he has been pretty woeful in the CL Knockout Rounds of hate, especially considering the performances he used to do (even against the likes of Real Madrid) earlier in his career at this stage. Still if he carries on his current form for the 2nd half of the season, he just might end up with next years award.
 

Daysleeper

Full Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2014
Messages
1,710
Supports
Barcelona
Not really though when you compare squad by squad (if you exclude Messi from Barcelona and VVD from Liverpool), I mean while Allison & Ter Stegen are on a similar level; Cillessen is far better than Mingolet, Alba is better on paper than Robinson; Umiti & Pique (despite his shocking performances in Anfield) are far better than Lovern & Matip, Lenglet is somewhat better than Gomez, TAA is better than Roberto, Semedo is better than Cylne, Fabinho is better than Busquets, Rakitic is better than Henderson, Arthur is better than Keita, Milner is better than Vidal, Mane is better than Coutinho (Although Liverpool where still stupid to sell him in the first place without properly replacing him 2 seasons on), Salah is better than Dembele, Malcolm is better (on paper at least) than Origi, Shaqri is better than D.Suarez, and Firminho is better than L.Suarez

So player to player, with 10 players better vs 7 players better (with 1 player on each side on the same level), its clear to see that even without Messi, Barcelona are a better side than a VVD-less Liverpool.



That was more to do with how the team was set up (and how it is managed) as well as the actual form of many of their players. Which also (for bettter or worse) goes to show how important it is for a good manager to get the best out of their team.



True when it comes to Allison (who you can argue was equally important to their improvement in form in the last 2 seasons), however as Arsenal have shown in recent seasons (as well as Liverpool before VVD), its all well and good having a great attack, but if you can't defend then you might as well forget trying to win sliverware. After all there is a good reason why we only started winning CL's again after getting Rio, Vidic & VDS.



Agreed on both counts.
No, you are too busy looking at what’s on paper. Also not sure why you mentioning 2018 players like clyne the award is for this calendar year.
Your point about the importance of management and setup only further illustrates why Messi deserves it over VVD.

Messi has to do more with less.

You honestly think Barca without Messi would best Liverpool without VVD? No way

Liverpool’s success was far more team oriented than Barca’s with Messi being mosty one man show.

Even Mane said Messi deserves it.
 

Daysleeper

Full Member
Joined
Sep 25, 2014
Messages
1,710
Supports
Barcelona
I just wonder- what does Lewandowski need to do more to win it. Scoring more than Messi and Ronaldo isnt enough.
messi is a hundred times the playmaker
Lewandowski is on top of having similar scoring numbers.
 

Dancfc

Full Member
Joined
Oct 28, 2016
Messages
1,663
Supports
Chelsea
How does VVD even get a look in? Not the player Rio was and he never got near the Ballon D’or. First top class centre half in a while getting massively overrated. Him winning it over Messi would have been laughable.
While I absolutely agree he shouldn't have won it over Messi (he should be on his 11th Balon Dor in a row in my opinion) he very much deserves his place amount the great league CB and anyone saying otherwise is in my opinion overdoing the nostalgia bias.

10 years ago Terry and Ferdinand allegedly weren't fit to lace prime Tony Adams boots.
 

Seij

Full Member
Joined
Jun 17, 2014
Messages
894
Lewandowski should've finished higher, at least top 5 above Mbappe, Ronaldo, and Becker, and probably also above Salah (hope I don't get crucified for saying that). Bayern getting knocked out so early in the CL hurt him too much.

Actually, Ronaldo has shown recently that aside from being a goalscoring machine, he'll give vvd a good run for the money in blocking goals. So NVM about him above.
 

Andersonson

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Jan 12, 2013
Messages
536
People saying VvD dragged Liverpool to the CL win. Yet Liverpool have Mane and Salah in top 5 in the listing. Barcelona had 1, Messi.

Messi clearly deserved it, yet again
 

MrEleson

Full Member
Joined
Oct 25, 2014
Messages
566
I guess people can no longer say that midfielders and defenders don’t get the recognition they deserve in relation to these awards based on the last few years.
 

amolbhatia50k

Sneaky bum time
Joined
Nov 8, 2002
Messages
72,703
Location
india
While it is true that Messi had the best season in terms of goals (Both in Domestic and European Football) and is without a doubt still one of the 2 best players in world football, I don't see why Messi deserves to win it over VVD. Especially when while Messi won Laliga with a side that is clearly more talented than Liverpool on paper (in reality though, its a very different story), VVD dragged a side that featured Mingolet, Moreno, Lovern, Matip, Cylne, Henderson, Lallana, Sturridge & Origi into a CL title (a CL Final apparance before that) as well as being a stupid Lovern mistake away from winning the PL while a Messi-led Barcelona bottled it in the both the CL Semi-Finals and the Copa Del Rey Final (despite pretty much dominating the competition for the last 5 years or so).

So while Messi is clearly the better player than VVD, Van Dijk has clearly had the bigger impact in terms of contributing to his teams success as the last 2 seasons have shown. Certainly Liverpool would not be doing as well as they have done recently had they stuck to a Lovern-Matip CB partnership...
This post relies on the mythical. VVD didn't drag any poor lot to anything despite this being a narrative people love. Whether we like or dislike it, Liverpool are now a top class team. They don't need dragging. If anything, Barcelona without Messi, as is evident when he's missing, are impacted far more adversely. Also, I dispute the claim that Barcelona are a better team. For me Liverpool are comfortably ahead of them and better managed.
 

amolbhatia50k

Sneaky bum time
Joined
Nov 8, 2002
Messages
72,703
Location
india
Not really though when you compare squad by squad (if you exclude Messi from Barcelona and VVD from Liverpool), I mean while Allison & Ter Stegen are on a similar level; Cillessen is far better than Mingolet, Alba is better on paper than Robinson; Umiti & Pique (despite his shocking performances in Anfield) are far better than Lovern & Matip, Lenglet is somewhat better than Gomez, TAA is better than Roberto, Semedo is better than Cylne, Fabinho is better than Busquets, Rakitic is better than Henderson, Arthur is better than Keita, Milner is better than Vidal, Mane is better than Coutinho (Although Liverpool where still stupid to sell him in the first place without properly replacing him 2 seasons on), Salah is better than Dembele, Malcolm is better (on paper at least) than Origi, Shaqri is better than D.Suarez, and Firminho is better than L.Suarez

So player to player, with 10 players better vs 7 players better (with 1 player on each side on the same level), its clear to see that even without Messi, Barcelona are a better side than a VVD-less Liverpool.
That's the problem. You're focusing on individuals and reputations. For example, Robertson is comfortably better than Alba on the actual football pitch. As are Liverpool in general. And VVD has nothing to do with that. He gets to play with the actual version of his team/ team mates rather than the 'on paper' version. So the 'he dragged a weak team' narrative is completely wrong.
 

Champagne Football

Full Member
Joined
Nov 28, 2015
Messages
2,646
Location
El Beatle
Why should he have to score? Would conceding zero goals be enough?
It wouldn't be fair on all the other central defenders who were phenomenal in leading their club to a CL title - Stam, Vidic, Rio, Terry, Sergio Ramos, who may also have won a Ballon D'Or. VVD did absolutely nothing more than any of those monster defenders in their CL winning seasons.
So for a defender to win it, I just feel they would have to have done something during the season that revolutionised the world of defending, whether becoming an assist King playmaker, or some outrageous Scholes-esque long ball technique that lead to an avalanche of goals. Being a solid defensive rock is not enough to win a Ballon D'Or IMO
 

njred

HALA MADRID!
Joined
Nov 3, 2001
Messages
5,034
Supports
Liverpool
When the petition to give it to VVD starts?
The only people banging on about VVD is you lot. But I guess you have to cling onto anything to make you feel better in your vortex.
 

Morpheus 7

Full Member
Joined
May 14, 2014
Messages
2,685
Location
Ireland
How does VVD even get a look in? Not the player Rio was and he never got near the Ballon D’or. First top class centre half in a while getting massively overrated. Him winning it over Messi would have been laughable.
Not as laughable as the post you made,
VVD should have won that Ballon D'or. He was the best defender in the league and beat Messi's Barca when they shit themselves at anfield. I hate Liverpool but sometimes people need to put bias aside. He nearly led them to a double in the closest race in years.
 

Invictus

Poster of the Year 2015 & 2018
Staff
Joined
Mar 22, 2014
Messages
12,977
Supports
Piracy on the High Seas
How on earth did Mahrez get voted 10th?
Africa Cup of Nations. Algeria won the tournament and Mahrez was probably their best player after Bennacer. Apparently Ziyech was struck off the 30-man shortlist because he had a poor tournament with Morocco — don't necessarily agree with the judgement call but it at least explains why De Jong, De Ligt, Tadić, Van de Beek all made the cut while he didn't, even though he was Ajax's official player of the year and has been really good this term, too.
 

_00_deathscar

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Mar 13, 2016
Messages
121
Supports
Liverpool
It wouldn't be fair on all the other central defenders who were phenomenal in leading their club to a CL title - Stam, Vidic, Rio, Terry, Sergio Ramos, who may also have won a Ballon D'Or. VVD did absolutely nothing more than any of those monster defenders in their CL winning seasons.
So for a defender to win it, I just feel they would have to have done something during the season that revolutionised the world of defending, whether becoming an assist King playmaker, or some outrageous Scholes-esque long ball technique that lead to an avalanche of goals. Being a solid defensive rock is not enough to win a Ballon D'Or IMO
Most of those did it in pairs though. While Matip was excellent on the whole, especially second half of last season, it was clearly VVD's arrival and influence that changed Liverpool's mentality in defence (along with Alisson). See also, Matip before and after VVD.
 

Lay

Correctly predicted Portugal to win Euro 2016
Joined
Jan 29, 2013
Messages
8,701
Location
England
He did not do that.

Why do people make stuff up, as if the rest of us won't notice?
:lol: The VVD thing makes no sense, how can he drag a team to the final when half the top 10 are Liverpool players
 

RobinLFC

Cries when Liverpool doesn't get praised
Joined
May 20, 2014
Messages
10,794
Location
Belgium
Supports
Liverpool
Not really though when you compare squad by squad (if you exclude Messi from Barcelona and VVD from Liverpool), I mean while Allison & Ter Stegen are on a similar level; Cillessen is far better than Mingolet, Alba is better on paper than Robinson; Umiti & Pique (despite his shocking performances in Anfield) are far better than Lovern & Matip, Lenglet is somewhat better than Gomez, TAA is better than Roberto, Semedo is better than Cylne, Fabinho is better than Busquets, Rakitic is better than Henderson, Arthur is better than Keita, Milner is better than Vidal, Mane is better than Coutinho (Although Liverpool where still stupid to sell him in the first place without properly replacing him 2 seasons on), Salah is better than Dembele, Malcolm is better (on paper at least) than Origi, Shaqri is better than D.Suarez, and Firminho is better than L.Suarez

So player to player, with 10 players better vs 7 players better (with 1 player on each side on the same level), its clear to see that even without Messi, Barcelona are a better side than a VVD-less Liverpool.
This assessment just plain wrong. The impact Messi has on Barcelona literally can't be understated, and while Van Dijk has undoubtedly made Liverpool a much better side defensively, the comparison is not even close.

No, you are too busy looking at what’s on paper. Also not sure why you mentioning 2018 players like clyne the award is for this calendar year.
Your point about the importance of management and setup only further illustrates why Messi deserves it over VVD.

Messi has to do more with less.

You honestly think Barca without Messi would best Liverpool without VVD? No way

Liverpool’s success was far more team oriented than Barca’s with Messi being mosty one man show.

Even Mane said Messi deserves it.
It's mind boggling that you still have to explain this, it's like people haven't seen Barca play last year and are basing their opinion off of FIFA15 stats or somehting.

That said, I think it's a hole that you dug yourselves with this tactic of "just pass it to Messi and let's see what he can do from there on". It shouldn't have to be that way and you might even look back on the Messi era thinking you haven't gotten enough CL's out of him because of poor management since Guardiola left. Maybe poor is the wrong word, but a tier below elite in any case.

On one hand you have a lot of people saying that Barca are doomed once Messi calls it quits, then on the other hand you have (the same?) people saying that they're a great team and would be better without Messi than Liverpool without Van Dijk. It just doesn't hold up. I'm honestly not even sure I'd consider Van Dijk our most important player tbh. It'd be close with Mane and our fullbacks, perhaps Alisson is in with a shout... It shows, and also got illustrated by the amount of Liverpool players in the top 10, that it's close and we're just an all around elite team right now. With Barca, Messi is head and shoulders above anyone else on the squad in terms of importance. And he delivered in the league and the cup.
 

Schneckerl

Full Member
Joined
Jun 17, 2016
Messages
2,578

Complete voting records.

Some voters apparently don't take it that seriously:

 

Zehner

Full Member
Joined
Mar 29, 2018
Messages
1,739
Location
Germany
Supports
Bayer 04 Leverkusen

Complete voting records.

Some voters apparently don't take it that seriously:


Another proof that this award is nothing but a joke. Nobody should give a shit about it. You'd get better results if you go in some pub and just ask some drunk people what they think.
 

Andersons Dietician

Full Member
Joined
Jun 14, 2016
Messages
9,284
Supports
Supports good football
Honestly would have though VVD was a shoe in for it. Didn’t think Messi was all that great this season.
 

Lay

Correctly predicted Portugal to win Euro 2016
Joined
Jan 29, 2013
Messages
8,701
Location
England
I recall the Cook Islands giving Brad Friedal the number 1 spot
 

Renegade

Full Member
Joined
Nov 11, 2009
Messages
3,563
54 goals & 23 assists. I don’t care who won the UCL there can only be one winner.

Where did Rio and Vidic finish in 08 after winning the league and UCL?
 

giorno

Full Member
Joined
Jul 20, 2016
Messages
14,706
Supports
Real Madrid
Completely deserved, Messi was best player in the world last year. Although, by same metric. It doesn't justify Modric winning it over Ronaldo last year. They should be level on 6 each.
Why? By that same metric, Messi should have won at least 10 of the last 12(exceptions being 2013 where he was injured and maybe 2014)
 

giorno

Full Member
Joined
Jul 20, 2016
Messages
14,706
Supports
Real Madrid
The award is based on media narratives and personal preferences

What do you expect. How many people have seen more than 10 games by Messi, Van Dijk and Cristiano this year, do you think?