Ballon d'Or 2021: more interesting than usual?

[lefty_jakobz]

No chance any player not names Ronaldo or Messi dont win it until they both retire. Lewandowski deserved it last season but he wont win it this season.
CR and Messi both two of the greatest ever CLUB players of all time. Until either wins the World Cup ( which should be the mark of a World Class player) they are both not the best players ever! There you go Messi Ronaldo fan boys just dont give yourselfs a hernia reading that!

 

[kouroux]

Those laughing at Jorginho are just armchair football fans. He was one of Italy's best players in the Euros, played an integral part in Chelsea's CL win, why is it so laughable he is one of the contenders. Not so long ago, Kante was also a shout-in and would have definitely been the favourites if France had won the Euros.

And those thinking that, are much worse. We'll see when the final votes are in if Jorginho is close to winning it or not. The guy wasn't even the clear best player in neither Chelsea nor Italy.

*Name forward


I agree.

He's fine, pretty good player. But come on, he's nowhere near the best performer during the year. The problem is that you win the CL, Euros or WC and people's light up - BALONDOR WORTHY?! If Stones had won both finals would he win it? Of course not. It's ridiculous.

It's as simple as this, if you aren't the clear best player in your teams then you have no chances of winning the Ballon d'Or

 

[Lord SInister]

Those laughing at Jorginho are just armchair football fans. He was one of Italy's best players in the Euros, played an integral part in Chelsea's CL win, why is it so laughable he is one of the contenders. Not so long ago, Kante was also a shout-in and would have definitely been the favourites if France had won the Euros.

Being an integral part doesn't make you the best player.
And Kante unlike Jorginho was the standout player in the latter stages of the CL.
Armchair pundits are those with the anyone but Messi attitude, that they will go round and round trying to find new names.

 

[tomaldinho1]

*Name forward


I agree.

He's fine, pretty good player. But come on, he's nowhere near the best performer during the year. The problem is that you win the CL, Euros or WC and people's light up - BALONDOR WORTHY?! If Stones had won both finals would he win it? Of course not. It's ridiculous.

You didn't answer my Q re Jorginho.

Additionally, to your point made to the other poster, surely that just confirms you are biased towards an attacking player winning the BdO? Stones would be an excellent candidate - City had a great defence this season in the PL and had they won the CL and Stones had won the Euros with England why would he not be a good shout?

 

[Revan]

The problem throughout the Messi vs Ronaldo comparisons has always been that it's been reduced to a goals contest, when Messi would still be one of the best players in the world if he only scored 10 goals a season. Messi was the best player in the world on WhoScored, with 8.52 average per match, only Lewandowski was close at 8.07. Next best was Kane at 7.79.

Probably not considering that you are playing with 10 men when out of ball, he literally doesn't even run when the opposition team has the ball, let alone press or contribute defensively.

He probably deserves the Ballon D'Or for this year though. It sucks for Lewandowski who was robbed out of a Ballon D'Or in 2020, but Messi has been better in this season.

 

[Revan]

No chance any player not names Ronaldo or Messi dont win it until they both retire. Lewandowski deserved it last season but he wont win it this season.
CR and Messi both two of the greatest ever CLUB players of all time. Until either wins the World Cup ( which should be the mark of a World Class player) they are both not the best players ever! There you go Messi Ronaldo fan boys just dont give yourselfs a hernia reading that!

Modric won it in 2018.

 

[OleBoiii]

It seems like my thread jinxed everything. The gods of football just went: "Oh it's definitely gonna be Messi now!"

 

[Daysleeper]

Probably not considering that you are playing with 10 men when out of ball, he literally doesn't even run when the opposition team has the ball, let alone press or contribute defensively.

He probably deserves the Ballon D'Or for this year though. It sucks for Lewandowski who was robbed out of a Ballon D'Or in 2020, but Messi has been better in this season.

the amount of chances created is still good enough for him than even with just ten goals hypothetically he’d be top ten in the world though. He offers far more in attack than just about any player.

 

[Revan]

the amount of chances created is still good enough for him than even with just ten goals hypothetically he’d be top ten in the world though. He offers far more in attack than just about any player.

He does. But if he scores 10, and Lewandowski et al score 40-50, then that is not true anymore. Messi makes teams more vulnerable off the ball than any other player considering that you are with 10 men when defending. He more than makes up for it with his attacking brilliance, but goals are a large part of it.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

You didn't answer my Q re Jorginho.

Maybe it was a poor year for that position/role? If nobody was better than him then there were no great players in that role, considering his level.

Additionally, to your point made to the other poster, surely that just confirms you are biased towards an attacking player winning the BdO?

Not bias, pure logic. Generally, it's difficult for a defender to have as much influence on a football match as say, prime Messi or Maradona. But aside from those freaks, a defender of the level of Rio/Vidic at his very best, or Keane/Xavi at his very best, could be a legitimate contender for the Balon Dor. Why not? But it's just lazy to pick up a merely good CM as a contedor just because he was a part of two trophy winning teams.

Stones would be an excellent candidate - City had a great defence this season in the PL and had they won the CL and Stones had won the Euros with England why would he not be a good shout?

Stones

It's pretty clear that it's not that I have a bias towards a position but far too many have an obsession with trophy count. The award is for individual excellence. You can't compare the level of a Stones (comfortably behind Dias as City's best defender) and Lewandowski this past year.

 

[Daysleeper]

He does. But if he scores 10, and Lewandowski et al score 40-50, then that is not true anymore. Messi makes teams more vulnerable off the ball than any other player considering that you are with 10 men when defending. He more than makes up for it with his attacking brilliance, but goals are a large part of it.

Fair point

 

[tomaldinho1]

Maybe it was a poor year for that position/role? If nobody was better than him then there were no great players in that role, considering his level.

Not bias, pure logic. Generally, it's difficult for a defender to have as much influence on a football match as say, prime Messi or Maradona. But aside from those freaks, a defender of the level of Rio/Vidic at his very best, or Keane/Xavi at his very best, could be a legitimate contender for the Balon Dor. Why not? But it's just lazy to pick up a merely good CM as a contedor just because he was a part of two trophy winning teams.

Stones

It's pretty clear that it's not that I have a bias towards a position but far too many have an obsession with trophy count. The award is for individual excellence. You can't compare the level of a Stones (comfortably behind Dias as City's best defender) and Lewandowski this past year.

That seems like a bit of a dodge on Jorginho from you...also Stones example you brought up and I added a hypothetical scenario, to which you again have just dodged. I'll ask you again, do you not think if Stones had won the CL, Euros and PL he'd be in the running?

 

[amolbhatia50k]

That seems like a bit of a dodge on Jorginho from you...also Stones example you brought up and I added a hypothetical scenario, to which you again have just dodged. I'll ask you again, do you not think if Stones had won the CL, Euros and PL he'd be in the running?

No, same reason you shouldn't give it to David May for winning the quadruple. Nobody is dodging anything. You seem to be failing to grasp a simple concept.

 

[tomaldinho1]

No, same reason you shouldn't give it to David May for winning the quadruple. Nobody is dodging anything. You seem to be failing to grasp a simple concept.

David May, the lynchpin of the treble winning side. Please take a moment and actually think things through before posting them.

If you genuinely can't admit, in this hypothetical scenario, that Stones would be in the running for the Ballon D'Or if City had won the PL, CL and England had won the Euros (and he was a key player in all those comps) I can only revert back to my original point that you are just biased towards attacking players.

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

David May, the lynchpin of the treble winning side. Please take a moment and actually think things through before posting them.

If you genuinely can't admit, in this hypothetical scenario, that Stones would be in the running for the Ballon D'Or if City had won the PL, CL and England had won the Euros (and he was a key player in all those comps) I can only revert back to my original point that you are just biased towards attacking players.

You might want to take your own advice. Stones isn't even on the shortlist of the best City players, or best performers this year. Even had City won the Champions League final, he. Would be nowhere near contention for the balón d'or for the same reason Ronny Johnson wasn't a balón d'or contender in 1999.

 

[lefty_jakobz]

Modric won it in 2018.

Thats because they got him and Messi mixed up

 

[tomaldinho1]

You might want to take your own advice. Stones isn't even on the shortlist of the best City players, or best performers this year. Even had City won the Champions League final, he. Would be nowhere near contention for the balón d'or for the same reason Ronny Johnson wasn't a balón d'or contender in 1999.

BdO is calendar year - Stones wasn't a starter for much of the beginning of the season which impacts all awards bar the BdO.

Stam would be the CB you'd highlight if you're taking the season from an annual perspective and, yes, he was on the shortlist in 12th. Imagine if he had won the Euros.
Johnson was awesome for us after he became SAF's preferred partner for Stam but he also didn't play at all if memory serves at the start of 00 season which scuppers him. He essentially played Jan - May

 

[amolbhatia50k]

David May, the lynchpin of the treble winning side. Please take a moment and actually think things through before posting them.
.

I'm dumbing things down for you. It seemingly still hasn't gotten through.

 

[tomaldinho1]

I'm dumbing things down for you. It seemingly still hasn't gotten through.

I get people on here entrench themselves and re stubborn but you've outdone yourself. It's a nothing argument about a hypothetical scenario that (thankfully) did not happen but the fact you're fighting against it so hard/can't simply admit it's true is bemusing; Stones would 100% be on the BdO shortlist if City had won PL, CL and England had won the Euros.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

I get people on here entrench themselves and re stubborn but you've outdone yourself. It's a nothing argument about a hypothetical scenario that (thankfully) did not happen but the fact you're fighting against it so hard/can't simply admit it's true is bemusing; Stones would 100% be on the BdO shortlist if City had won PL, CL and England had won the Euros.

Summed up your argument pretty well there.

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

BdO is calendar year - Stones wasn't a starter for much of the beginning of the season which impacts all awards bar the BdO.

Stam would be the CB you'd highlight if you're taking the season from an annual perspective and, yes, he was on the shortlist in 12th. Imagine if he had won the Euros.
Johnson was awesome for us after he became SAF's preferred partner for Stam but he also didn't play at all if memory serves at the start of 00 season which scuppers him. He essentially played Jan - May

No, Johnson would've been the equivalent. Stam was the best center back in that team just as Diaz is the best centre back for this City squad. Stones and Johnson were at least a step behind Diaz and Stam, respectively. Neither was/is anywhere near the best player for his team and Stones wouldn't be a balón d'or candidate, had City won the Champions League because (just like Johnson) he wasn't even the best player in his position for City, and (just like Johnson ) wasn't even one of the best 5 players in his team.

 

[tomaldinho1]

No, Johnson would've been the equivalent. Stam was the best center back in that team just as Diaz is the best centre back for this City squad. Stones and Johnson were at least a step behind Diaz and Stam, respectively. Neither was/is anywhere near the best player for his team and Stones wouldn't be a balón d'or candidate, had City won the Champions League because (just like Johnson) he wasn't even the best player in his position for City, and (just like Johnson ) wasn't even one of the best 5 players in his team.

Ok so you're just ignoring the fact that Johnson didn't play any of the 00 season that counts towards a Ballon D'Or? Great to have such a rational debate.

Dias is in a different role to Stones, same as how Maguire and Stones partnered for England, not sure why you'd say one is more important than the other, if the CB pair isn't conceding goals when they are together (which FYI when Stones was out Dias + another CB were leaking goals) that surely means something. Unless you just think winning headers and making tackles = good and being the more passive CB = bad.

I love how you and the other guy won't just admit he'd be on the shortlist if he'd won such a ridiculous trophy haul of Euros, CL, PL & was (because he is) a key player.

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

Ok so you're just ignoring the fact that Johnson didn't play any of the 00 season that counts towards a Ballon D'Or? Great to have such a rational debate.

Dias is in a different role to Stones, same as how Maguire and Stones partnered for England, not sure why you'd say one is more important than the other, if the CB pair isn't conceding goals when they are together (which FYI when Stones was out Dias + another CB were leaking goals) that surely means something. Unless you just think winning headers and making tackles = good and being the more passive CB = bad.

I love how you and the other guy won't just admit he'd be on the shortlist if he'd won such a ridiculous trophy haul of Euros, CL, PL & was (because he is) a key player.

Why would anyone "admit" something that's asinine? Stones isn't anymore of a key player for City than Johnson was for our 1999 team. It doesn't matter if City had won the Champions League because had they won it, DeBryune, Diaz and at least 3 others would be the leading city candidates for the balón d'or.

Doubling down on a claim that John freaking Stones would be a balón d'or contender had City beat Chelsea is bizzare. The disagreement stems from the fact that you think he's a lot more valuable for his teams than anyone I know does. But that's akin to a Patrice Evra fan claiming Evra would have challenged Ronaldo for the 2008 balón d'or had France won the euros.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Why would anyone "admit" something that's asinine? Stones isn't anymore of a key player for City than Johnson was for our 1999 team. It doesn't matter if City had won the Champions League because had they won it, DeBryune, Diaz and at least 3 others would be the leading city candidates for the balón d'or.

Doubling down on a claim that John freaking Stones would be a balón d'or contender had City beat Chelsea is bizzare. The disagreement stems from the fact that you think he's a lot more valuable for his teams than anyone I know does. But that's akin to a Patrice Evra fan claiming Evra would have challenged Ronaldo for the 2008 balón d'or had France won the euros.

You’re forgetting Euros win which is a crucial part. Do you not read posts before responding or something? The entire point is that he’s hypothetically won a clean sweep of all major trophies.

I keep providing you with evidence: Johnson can’t be used because of his injury, calendar year for BdO, how City actually were worse without Stones and you’re essentially just backtracking and squirming over the fact you don’t think he’s a key player - when every bit of evidence points to the contrary. England also had the best defence in the Euros.

If you have nothing evidence based to add, please feel free to refrain from just rehashing that you don’t think he’s a key player.

 

[Ladron de redcafe]

You’re forgetting Euros win which is a crucial part. Do you not read posts before responding or something? The entire point is that he’s hypothetically won a clean sweep of all major trophies.

I keep providing you with evidence: Johnson can’t be used because of his injury, calendar year for BdO, how City actually were worse without Stones and you’re essentially just backtracking and squirming over the fact you don’t think he’s a key player - when every bit of evidence points to the contrary. England also had the best defence in the Euros.

If you have nothing evidence based to add, please feel free to refrain from just rehashing that you don’t think he’s a key player.

This is hypothetical scenario. Both sides don't have evidence. You're speculating that had City and England won 1 more match each, Stones would have been a leading balón d'or candidate.

The other point of view is that it wouldn't have mattered because Stones isn't close to the best player on either team.

You respond by peremptorily demanding "evidence" that Stones wouldn't have been a candidate had City won the Champions League.

This entire discussion is a matter of opinions. Your verry premise lacked an iota of evidence. It's conjecture, based on a personal opinion. The responses you got from multiple posters are also subjective and opinionated.

 

[roonster09]

You’re forgetting Euros win which is a crucial part. Do you not read posts before responding or something? The entire point is that he’s hypothetically won a clean sweep of all major trophies.

I keep providing you with evidence: Johnson can’t be used because of his injury, calendar year for BdO, how City actually were worse without Stones and you’re essentially just backtracking and squirming over the fact you don’t think he’s a key player - when every bit of evidence points to the contrary. England also had the best defence in the Euros.

If you have nothing evidence based to add, please feel free to refrain from just rehashing that you don’t think he’s a key player.

In a hypothetical scenario, how can anyone provide evidence?

 

[do.ob]

John Stones for Ballon d'Or ... I feel like the caf has run its course now.

 

[tomaldinho1]

This is hypothetical scenario. Both sides don't have evidence. You're speculating that had City and England won 1 more match each, Stones would have been a leading balón d'or candidate.

The other point of view is that it wouldn't have mattered because Stones isn't close to the best player on either team.

You respond by peremptorily demanding "evidence" that Stones wouldn't have been a candidate had City won the Champions League.

This entire discussion is a matter of opinions. Your verry premise lacked an iota of evidence. It's conjecture, based on a personal opinion. The responses you got from multiple posters are also subjective and opinionated.

Of course it’s hypothetical but your point is essentially that Stones isn’t a key player and therefore it doesn’t matter what he wins or how well he plays? Please, please read the post before replying - again you’re saying CL but it’s CL and Euros.

I can point to facts and evidence (just look at the stats) and the only made up part is we’re saying he won those two finals he lost. The rest is real.

This year there really haven’t been that many stand out performers - that’s why in this scenario I don’t see why Stones (having won everything and been a key part) wouldn’t be in the running. Messi was great in LL and he won the Copa but it’s a big dip from the old standards he and Ronaldo used to set…why wouldn’t a CB be in the running? I’d hate any City player to win a BdO but it’s completely fair and logical to suggest he’d be up for the award in this fictitious scenario.

 

[tomaldinho1]

In a hypothetical scenario, how can anyone provide evidence?

Read the chain,
use your brain,
Don’t blindly,
Jump on a train.

 

[roonster09]

Read the chain,
use your brain,
Don’t blindly,
Jump on a train.

Still its a hypothetical scenario, which means it's didn't happen. How can anyone provide evidence for something that didn't happen?

At best it's your opinion vs someone else's opinion like a draft forum.

Couple of youngsters missing penalties shouldn't change his performance level. So let's see if he is nominated, same with Dias making a mistake in one game shouldn't change stones season

 

[roonster09]

Kante, Stones, Jorginho done. Non PL fans must be laughing their ass off seeing these names.

 

[red_de_pologne]

No chance any player not names Ronaldo or Messi dont win it until they both retire. Lewandowski deserved it last season but he wont win it this season.
CR and Messi both two of the greatest ever CLUB players of all time. Until either wins the World Cup ( which should be the mark of a World Class player) they are both not the best players ever! There you go Messi Ronaldo fan boys just dont give yourselfs a hernia reading that!

Modric won it in 2018.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Still its a hypothetical scenario, which means it's didn't happen. How can anyone provide evidence for something that didn't happen?

At best it's your opinion vs someone else's opinion like a draft forum.

Couple of youngsters missing penalties shouldn't change his performance level. So let's see if he is nominated, same with Dias making a mistake in one game shouldn't change stones season

The only hypothetical part is they won those two games - the rest is fact. Look at his performances from Jan 21 to present.

Trophies are a big part of the BdO - that’s how it has always been and it’s also a fairer way of including non attacking players - that’s why people who think Messi should win it are hanging their hat on the Copa…without that he’s not done anything differently to Ronaldo (top scorer in league and national tournament, won a minor cup). Neither won a single major domestic title and were both average by their standards in the CL.

 

[roonster09]

The only hypothetical part is they won those two games - the rest is fact. Look at his performances from Jan 21 to present.

Trophies are a big part of the BdO - that’s how it has always been and it’s also a fairer way of including non attacking players - that’s why people who think Messi should win it are hanging their hat on the Copa…without that he’s not done anything differently to Ronaldo (top scorer in league and national tournament, won a minor cup). Neither won a single major domestic title and were both average by their standards in the CL.

I said Messi should win and I said it even before he won Copa, cup competitions or team winning trophies should sway any votes. It's award for Individual performance and no one was better than Messi in this calendar year. Him and Lewa are class apart.

If Stones deserved to be nominated (had he won both of those trophies) then one missed penalty and one mistake by his partner shouldn't change anything. There are many players who didn't win anything and still got nominated for Ballon d'or, so Saka/Sancho/Rashford missing penalties shouldn't change Stone's nomination.

De Ligt was nominated couple of years ago and he didn't win CL or major international trophy. There are many other defenders like Godin who were nominated and they didn't sweep all the trophies or didn't win CL. If a defender plays exceptionally well, they will be nominated. Couple of missed penalties won't change that.

 

[tomaldinho1]

I said Messi should win and I said it even before he won Copa, cup competitions or team winning trophies should sway any votes. It's award for Individual performance and no one was better than Messi in this calendar year. Him and Lewa are class apart.

If Stones deserved to be nominated (had he won both of those trophies) then one missed penalty and one mistake by his partner shouldn't change anything. There are many players who didn't win anything and still got nominated for Ballon d'or, so Saka/Sancho/Rashford missing penalties shouldn't change Stone's nomination.

De Ligt was nominated couple of years ago and he didn't win CL or major international trophy. There are many other defenders like Godin who were nominated and they didn't sweep all the trophies or didn't win CL. If a defender plays exceptionally well, they will be nominated. Couple of missed penalties won't change that.

I agree it shouldn't but it does.

Look at Cannavaro - he won it because he won the WC but he wasn't even that great domestically that year. Look at the narrative around KDB this year - people were saying if he'd won the CL or Euros he'd be a shoe in for the Ballon D'or but why is that? He was injured at the start of the year, City kept battering teams and there were multiple articles about how City might be better as a team without him starting. Ronaldo fans used the Euros in his favour but he was injured in the final, Messi wasn't great at all in the Copa this year but people just see the trophies and assume they must have played well/been key. I get the BdO is political and I do think some of Messi/Ronald's wins haven't really been representative (how did Iniesta and/or Xavi not win for example - especially when the Euros/WC wins comes into it) but just because someone is an un-sexy/non striker name like Jorginho or Stones (in our scenario with the extra trophies) doesn't mean they shouldn't be in contention.

All that matters is the calendar year and I think you'd struggle to name a more consistent and better CB than Stones in that time across all comps - even if he's been terrible outside of that calendar year or you simply haven't rated him - he has been truly excellent in '21 and, as much as I dislike him/haven't rated him in the past, no other CB I can think of comes close consistency wise so far.

 

[roonster09]

I agree it shouldn't but it does.

Look at Cannavaro - he won it because he won the WC but he wasn't even that great domestically that year. Look at the narrative around KDB this year - people were saying if he'd won the CL or Euros he'd be a shoe in for the Ballon D'or but why is that? He was injured at the start of the year, City kept battering teams and there were multiple articles about how City might be better as a team without him starting. Ronaldo fans used the Euros in his favour but he was injured in the final, Messi wasn't great at all in the Copa this year but people just see the trophies and assume they must have played well/been key. I get the BdO is political and I do think some of Messi/Ronald's wins haven't really been representative (how did Iniesta and/or Xavi not win for example - especially when the Euros/WC wins comes into it) but just because someone is an un-sexy/non striker name like Jorginho or Stones (in our scenario with the extra trophies) doesn't mean they shouldn't be in contention.

All that matters is the calendar year and I think you'd struggle to name a more consistent and better CB than Stones in that time across all comps - even if he's been terrible outside of that calendar year or you simply haven't rated him - he has been truly excellent in '21 and, as much as I dislike him/haven't rated him in the past, no other CB I can think of comes close consistency wise so far.

Ronaldo and Messi both deserved all the awards they won, it was always between 2 of them as they kept pushing each other and were at different level.

I have given you examples of defenders who were nominated when they didn't win CL or sweep all trophies. If he was exceptional in 21 and we all struggle to name a better CB, then he shouldn't have a problem getting nominated. It's not as if City struggle with PR campaigns, they have good enough backing from journalists.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Ronaldo and Messi both deserved all the awards they won, it was always between 2 of them as they kept pushing each other and were at different level.

I have given you examples of defenders who were nominated when they didn't win CL or sweep all trophies. If he was exceptional in 21 and we all struggle to name a better CB, then he shouldn't have a problem getting nominated. It's not as if City struggle with PR campaigns, they have good enough backing from journalists.

Ronaldo/Messi/Iniesta/Xavi debate aside - who was better in '21 across all comps as a CB?

 

[roonster09]

Ronaldo/Messi/Iniesta/Xavi debate aside - who was better in '21 across all comps as a CB?

Rudiger was better in 21, since Tuchel took over he is dominant. Ruben Dias had better overall season too.

It's hard to rate defenders as some are more protected with the system they play than others, for me De Vrij was very good too. He should be rated very highly for his performance.

 

[lefty_jakobz]

Did I say no player other than them has one it in the past?

 

[kc7]

The only hypothetical part is they won those two games - the rest is fact. Look at his performances from Jan 21 to present.

Trophies are a big part of the BdO - that’s how it has always been and it’s also a fairer way of including non attacking players - that’s why people who think Messi should win it are hanging their hat on the Copa…without that he’s not done anything differently to Ronaldo (top scorer in league and national tournament, won a minor cup). Neither won a single major domestic title and were both average by their standards in the CL.

Probably the most absurd comment here...

Messi's contribution goes beyond goals because he is an elite playmaker + elite goal scorer unlike Ronaldo. You cannot just compare them just looking at the goal stats.
Luckily, most people can see this difference and that's why Messi has always been a part of the BDO conversation this year along with Lewandowski even before his Copa. On the other hand, Ronaldo has never been part of that conversation..