Based on Santos and Tielemans, predict Utds third midfield signing

Well kinda, but you also followed up with something I disagreed with. I just think it's easier to try and justify not getting a proper fourth CM if the idea holds that they're rarely used. More accurately, they're often used, even if not heavily used. Which is why I've been fine with us getting someone like Berge rather than spending more on a marquee signing for that role. I want our other three to get the bulk of the minutes, but still believe a fourth CM would contribute in significant ways.

We'll probably just have to agree to disagree then, because I don't think fourth-choice midfielders are used particularly often at all when the players ahead of them are fit. Obviously they'll get substitute appearances and the odd start, but that's completely different from actually playing a meaningful share of the minutes.

Mainoo last season is a pretty obvious example. Once Bruno, Casemiro and Ugarte were preferred, his minutes dropped considerably, despite us being in Europe and the domestic cups. It was hardly surprising that there was then talk about him wanting more game time. That's essentially the point I've been making throughout - being the fourth option might sound fine on paper, but when the three ahead of you are available, there often isn't that much football left to go around.

Even when we were linked with Ederson, plenty of people were saying he'd probably come in as the fourth-choice/back-up midfielder rather than someone guaranteed regular starts. So I'm not really sure why the idea of a fourth midfielder having a relatively limited role has suddenly become controversial.

Personally, I'd be perfectly happy with Berge, as I've mentioned in a thread before. He can cover the deeper midfield role relatively well, has plenty of Premier League experience and, importantly, would give us some much needed physical presence in midfield. He'd also presumably understand that he's coming in as a squad option rather than expecting to start every week.

For me, that's far more sensible squad building. Three midfielders genuinely competing for the two starting positions, an experienced fourth option like Berge, and then Mount as additional cover who can play across several roles.
 
We'll probably just have to agree to disagree then, because I don't think fourth-choice midfielders are used particularly often at all when the players ahead of them are fit. Obviously they'll get substitute appearances and the odd start, but that's completely different from actually playing a meaningful share of the minutes.

Mainoo last season is a pretty obvious example. Once Bruno, Casemiro and Ugarte were preferred, his minutes dropped considerably, despite us being in Europe and the domestic cups. It was hardly surprising that there was then talk about him wanting more game time. That's essentially the point I've been making throughout - being the fourth option might sound fine on paper, but when the three ahead of you are available, there often isn't that much football left to go around.

Even when we were linked with Ederson, plenty of people were saying he'd probably come in as the fourth-choice/back-up midfielder rather than someone guaranteed regular starts. So I'm not really sure why the idea of a fourth midfielder having a relatively limited role has suddenly become controversial.

Personally, I'd be perfectly happy with Berge, as I've mentioned in a thread before. He can cover the deeper midfield role relatively well, has plenty of Premier League experience and, importantly, would give us some much needed physical presence in midfield. He'd also presumably understand that he's coming in as a squad option rather than expecting to start every week.

For me, that's far more sensible squad building. Three midfielders genuinely competing for the two starting positions, an experienced fourth option like Berge, and then Mount as additional cover who can play across several roles.

Getting sub appearances is being used! Sub appearances are important. Managers need to be able to make subs to manage their best player's workloads and add fresh legs late in games. If a player is injured a lot of the time (Mount) they are not available as a sub. I would have been fine with Ederson as a fourth choice. I am not OK with Mount being fourth choice.

One of our most glaring issues last year was how little we had on the bench. We haven't actually improved our depth much at all, just our quality. For CM we've had two out (one left, one long term injury) and two in.

Also, we weren't in Europe last season and got knocked out of the domestic cups very early. No idea what you're on about there, unless you mean 2024/2025.
 
Getting sub appearances is being used! Sub appearances are important. Managers need to be able to make subs to manage their best player's workloads and add fresh legs late in games. If a player is injured a lot of the time (Mount) they are not available as a sub. I would have been fine with Ederson as a fourth choice. I am not OK with Mount being fourth choice.

One of our most glaring issues last year was how little we had on the bench. We haven't actually improved our depth much at all, just our quality. For CM we've had two out (one left, one long term injury) and two in.

Also, we weren't in Europe last season and got knocked out of the domestic cups very early. No idea what you're on about there, unless you mean 2024/2025.

Yeah, I meant 24/25 with Mainoo. The point remains the same though.

And again, I know a substitute appearance counts as "being used" Nobody is arguing otherwise. We're disagreeing over what constitutes being used often. Coming on for 10-20 minutes here and there obviously has value, but it doesn't suddenly mean the fourth-choice midfielder is getting a significant amount of football. That's why I've kept referring to starts and minutes rather than simply counting appearances.

I also feel like we're going round in circles with Mount because I've already agreed with you on that. I've literally said he'd probably be fifth choice because of his injury record and that I'd be happy bringing in another midfielder. So I'm not arguing that Mount has to be our fourth choice CM.

Where we disagree is how much that fourth midfielder actually needs to play when everyone is fit. You think they're used often; I don't, certainly not compared to the main three. That's really as complicated as the disagreement needs to be.

And that's why I've mentioned Berge. Mainoo, Santos and Tielemans as the main three, Berge as the experienced fourth option who can cover the deeper role and gives us some physicality, then Mount as the versatile fifth/squad option. That gives us five players capable of covering two midfield positions. I'm struggling to see how that would leave us particularly short of depth.

So yes, subs are important. Squad depth is important. Nobody is disputing either of those things. I just don't think "we need options from the bench" automatically means the fourth-choice midfielder is going to play loads of football when the three ahead of him remain fit.
 
Fair. Just a little sensitive to this as our LB signings have been so poor for a while which is what's led us here. Telles, Reguilon, Malacia - all lower tier punts which haven't worked out, and so ended up being a false economy. We know Shaw's future has questions marks so it's time to invest in a proper first team solution.
Reguilon was a loan, I was a little surprised we didn't try to sign him as he did a reasonable job, and it would have saved us from ever seeing Dalot at LB again
 
Yeah, I meant 24/25 with Mainoo. The point remains the same though.

And again, I know a substitute appearance counts as "being used" Nobody is arguing otherwise. We're disagreeing over what constitutes being used often. Coming on for 10-20 minutes here and there obviously has value, but it doesn't suddenly mean the fourth-choice midfielder is getting a significant amount of football. That's why I've kept referring to starts and minutes rather than simply counting appearances.

I also feel like we're going round in circles with Mount because I've already agreed with you on that. I've literally said he'd probably be fifth choice because of his injury record and that I'd be happy bringing in another midfielder. So I'm not arguing that Mount has to be our fourth choice CM.

Where we disagree is how much that fourth midfielder actually needs to play when everyone is fit. You think they're used often; I don't, certainly not compared to the main three. That's really as complicated as the disagreement needs to be.

And that's why I've mentioned Berge. Mainoo, Santos and Tielemans as the main three, Berge as the experienced fourth option who can cover the deeper role and gives us some physicality, then Mount as the versatile fifth/squad option. That gives us five players capable of covering two midfield positions. I'm struggling to see how that would leave us particularly short of depth.

So yes, subs are important. Squad depth is important. Nobody is disputing either of those things. I just don't think "we need options from the bench" automatically means the fourth-choice midfielder is going to play loads of football when the three ahead of him remain fit.

This all comes down to your original claim which I disagreed with which was that fourth choice CMs were rarely used. You've since admitted that was poor wording and that you actually meant something different , so I'm not sure why we're still arguing. I have never claimed a fourth choice would get loads of minutes, just that they would likely see fairly regular appearances. Those two things are not the same.

And I have certainly never argued that Berge. Mainoo, Santos and Tielemans plus Mount would leave us short - not sure if you're trying to strawman me with that bolded sentence. From the outset I specifically argued that Mainoo, Santos and Tielemans plus Mount would leave us short and we therefore needed a proper fourth CM like Berge in the mix too. And if we did so it would not be rare for him to feature in some capacity, even if he gets fewer minutes than the others.
 
I dont wanna add fuel to this debate(when it looks like both of you are actually agreeing, and its more about semantics)

But its about framing. You can choose to view it as 4 players fighting for 2 spots.

Or you can view it as Berge and Santos fighting for a spot, and Kobbie and Tielesman fighting for a spot. Suddenly there's no "4th choice", just solid competition for places.
 
I dont wanna add fuel to this debate(when it looks like both of you are actually agreeing, and its more about semantics)

But its about framing. You can choose to view it as 4 players fighting for 2 spots.

Or you can view it as Berge and Santos fighting for a spot, and Kobbie and Tielesman fighting for a spot. Suddenly there's no "4th choice", just solid competition for places.

It's such an obvious point that I think some are just being deliberately argumentative. We do need defensive midfield cover not only for subs but the very likely scenario of injuries.

I'm sure I've read in the past that defensive midfield is the position with the most frequent injuries. So when Santos likely gets injured, what is the clubs plan I wonder.
 
I dont wanna add fuel to this debate(when it looks like both of you are actually agreeing, and its more about semantics)

But its about framing. You can choose to view it as 4 players fighting for 2 spots.

Or you can view it as Berge and Santos fighting for a spot, and Kobbie and Tielesman fighting for a spot. Suddenly there's no "4th choice", just solid competition for places.

Agreed on that. And it could be that one combo is used in particular types of games and another combo used the other types of games.
 
It's such an obvious point that I think some are just being deliberately argumentative. We do need defensive midfield cover not only for subs but the very likely scenario of injuries.

I'm sure I've read in the past that defensive midfield is the position with the most frequent injuries. So when Santos likely gets injured, what is the clubs plan I wonder.

Agreed. And that’s where Mount as the 4th CM just doesn’t cut it.
 
I dont wanna add fuel to this debate(when it looks like both of you are actually agreeing, and its more about semantics)

But its about framing. You can choose to view it as 4 players fighting for 2 spots.

Or you can view it as Berge and Santos fighting for a spot, and Kobbie and Tielesman fighting for a spot. Suddenly there's no "4th choice", just solid competition for places.

Yeah and that would leave mount (who’s often injured) as the backup for Bruno (who’s rarely injured). In this scenario I would loan Lacey because I think he needs to play 90 min every week.
 
Yeah and that would leave mount (who’s often injured) as the backup for Bruno (who’s rarely injured). In this scenario I would loan Lacey because I think he needs to play 90 min every week.

There’s no way I’d be loaning Lacey - last season we had so few attacking options off the bench. Between cup games and sub appearances there will be minutes for him, especially if Mbeumo is our striker cover (even if Zirkzee stays he’s not a 9 and Carrick prefers Mbeumo there).
 
It's such an obvious point that I think some are just being deliberately argumentative. We do need defensive midfield cover not only for subs but the very likely scenario of injuries.

I'm sure I've read in the past that defensive midfield is the position with the most frequent injuries. So when Santos likely gets injured, what is the clubs plan I wonder.

Agreed. And that’s where Mount as the 4th CM just doesn’t cut it.

Not saying it’s the right decision, but it is true that Mainoo played deeper than Casemiro under Carrick

I’m not sure if it will be a winning strategy to play one of Santos/Mainoo behind Tielemans/Mount/new signing, but it might be the plan
 
Not saying it’s the right decision, but it is true that Mainoo played deeper than Casemiro under Carrick

I’m not sure if it will be a winning strategy to play one of Santos/Mainoo behind Tielemans/Mount/new signing, but it might be the plan

I think we’ll see all combos of the three of them with shared defensive responsibilities. How a fourth fits in depends on the profile.
 
This all comes down to your original claim which I disagreed with which was that fourth choice CMs were rarely used. You've since admitted that was poor wording and that you actually meant something different , so I'm not sure why we're still arguing. I have never claimed a fourth choice would get loads of minutes, just that they would likely see fairly regular appearances. Those two things are not the same.

And I have certainly never argued that Berge. Mainoo, Santos and Tielemans plus Mount would leave us short - not sure if you're trying to strawman me with that bolded sentence. From the outset I specifically argued that Mainoo, Santos and Tielemans plus Mount would leave us short and we therefore needed a proper fourth CM like Berge in the mix too. And if we did so it would not be rare for him to feature in some capacity, even if he gets fewer minutes than the others.

I think the problem is you get incredibly hung up on individual words rather than the wider point being made It was the same with the Lewis-Skelly discussion. You became fixated on Arsenal supposedly having to sell him below market value, despite me never actually saying that, and kept coming back to it as though it somehow changed the argument I was making. We're doing something similar here. I've already said that, because you're so anal about the wording, perhaps "rarely" wasn't the best word to use. Fine. But the actual point I've consistently made is that the fourth-choice midfielder generally plays considerably less than the main three, particularly when everyone is fit. The starts and minutes we looked at support that.

Most teams tend to have three main midfielders who share the majority of the minutes, with another player providing depth.

Last season:

Arsenal - Rice, Zubimendi, Merino, Norgaard - 1 appearance - 106 minutes

City - Rodri, Bernardo Silva, Nico, Reijnders - 19 starts - Hardly played when Rodri was back

Chelsea - Caicedo, Santos, Enzo, Lavia - 4 appearances - 380 mins

Liverpool - Gravenberch, Mac Allister, Szoboszlai, Jones - 18 starts (9 in midfield the rest elswhere)

Villa - Kamara, Tielemans, Onana, Barkley - 7 starts - 5 as an attacking midfielder

Obviously, some of those teams have players who are not listed above who can fill in across multiple positions, but those were the core midfield groups each team relied on.

With that in mind, it wouldn't be surprising at all if we went into the season with Mainoo, Santos, Tielemans and Mount as our four main midfielders, alongside a versatile player who can cover multiple roles when needed.

That was literally my first post

The players I mentioned in bold, despite getting minutes, are fourth-choice players, whether you agree with that or not. And if it wasn’t for the injuries, I genuinely believe some of them would have played even less. (I HAVE NOW ADDED MINUTES AND/OR STARTS FOR YOU)

Yes, injuries are part of the game. I understand that. But generally, teams have players who are fourth-choice options. That’s just how squad depth works. It might not always play out exactly like that, but I said “tend to” - as in, usually, not every single time without exception. One player can provide depth while another is further down the pecking order.

So I’m not really sure what point you’re trying to make anymore. I’m not wrong, and at this stage it feels like you’re just replying for the sake of replying, which is fine, but it’s becoming pretty tedious having to explain the same fairly simple point over and over again.

And I'm not trying to strawman you. I'm explaining what I'd be happy with now that we're discussing another midfielder coming in. My original suggestion was Mainoo, Santos, Tielemans and Mount, plus versatile cover. You've said you wouldn't trust Mount as the fourth because of his availability; I've already said that's fair enough and that Mount probably ends up fifth choice anyway. I've also said I'd happily take Berge as that fourth midfielder. So we've now arrived at Mainoo, Santos and Tielemans as the main three, Berge as fourth choice and Mount as additional cover - which you apparently agree would be sufficient as well.

So at this point we seemingly agree on the squad numbers, agree that the fourth midfielder will play fewer minutes than the main three, and agree that Mount is better suited as additional cover. We're essentially several posts deep into an argument over whether the fourth midfielder should be described as "rarely used" or "fairly regularly used in some capacity".
 
It’s highly likely we sign no 3rd midfielder. The club had multiple midfield targets lined up earlier in the summer but clearly underestimated the competition for those players. Tonali and Fernandes they weren’t willing to pay the price. Scott felt like a pipe dream. Wharton doesn’t make much sense with mainoo already here. Baleba is injured. Tchouameni signed a new deal. I just can’t see ineos forcing a signing unless an amazing market opportunity comes up
 
Not saying it’s the right decision, but it is true that Mainoo played deeper than Casemiro under Carrick

I’m not sure if it will be a winning strategy to play one of Santos/Mainoo behind Tielemans/Mount/new signing, but it might be the plan

It's not about deeper it's about defensive ability, Mainoo playmaking deep but with Casemiro next to him is very different than him playing with Mount/Tielemans. Can you get away with it in some games? Sure, but if we have to get onto big games like that we're screwed.
 
I dont wanna add fuel to this debate(when it looks like both of you are actually agreeing, and its more about semantics)

But its about framing. You can choose to view it as 4 players fighting for 2 spots.

Or you can view it as Berge and Santos fighting for a spot, and Kobbie and Tielesman fighting for a spot. Suddenly there's no "4th choice", just solid competition for places.

Potentially, but there seem to be fewer teams doing that now. I actually think this is partly why Carrick seems to be targeting players who can play both the 6 and 8, as it gives you a lot more flexibility and makes things less of a headache if/when injuries happen.

Kobbie was used deeper under Carrick towards the back end of last season, so he could easily slot in as a 6 if, say, someone like Santos was injured. It’s similar to what Arteta did with Rice, where he could play as the 6 while Merino played as the 8 at times before his injury.

Mainoo, Tielemans and Santos can all play both the 6 and 8 relatively well. Obviously there are things missing from each of their games, and maybe that’s where Carrick may look to complement them with another signing.

For me though, you still need two reliable starters who can build that understanding and consistency, then a third option who can either start games or come off the bench. The fourth choice can be used every now and then, but if everyone stays fit, they’re probably not going to get a huge amount of Premier League minutes - which is what we’re actually talking about here.

That’s why having players who can cover both positions is so useful. Rather than needing four specialist midfielders for two positions, you can have a bit more versatility within the squad without massively compromising the quality.
 
There’s no way I’d be loaning Lacey - last season we had so few attacking options off the bench. Between cup games and sub appearances there will be minutes for him, especially if Mbeumo is our striker cover (even if Zirkzee stays he’s not a 9 and Carrick prefers Mbeumo there).

That’s not really true though. You can argue we didn’t have the quality you’d expect from a squad aspiring to win major trophies, but saying we had “few attacking options” is a completely different argument. Go back and actually look at some of the benches we had and you’ll see that.

Yes, we struggled a bit when Dorgu got injured, but we still had Zirkzee, Mount, Sesko and Lacey available on the bench. Again, I’m not really sure how you think squad building works, but you can’t just have an endless list of attackers sitting around waiting for injuries.

Typically, you’re looking at around three or four attacking options on the bench at most, with the rest made up of midfielders, defenders and a goalkeeper. So yes, the quality of our attacking depth wasn’t where it needed to be, but saying we had few attacking options simply isn’t accurate.

This season, assuming Zirkzee goes, we have:
  • Sesko
  • Mbeumo
  • Cunha
  • Rashford
  • Dorgu
  • Amad
  • Lacey
  • Thompson
That’s eight players who can contribute in the attacking areas. So unless the argument is that we should have 10–12 attackers just sitting around in case three get injured at once, I’d say that’s more than enough depth.

The issue last season was the quality and balance of those options, not the sheer number of them. There’s a pretty important distinction there.
 
That’s not really true though. You can argue we didn’t have the quality you’d expect from a squad aspiring to win major trophies, but saying we had “few attacking options” is a completely different argument. Go back and actually look at some of the benches we had and you’ll see that.

Yes, we struggled a bit when Dorgu got injured, but we still had Zirkzee, Mount, Sesko and Lacey available on the bench. Again, I’m not really sure how you think squad building works, but you can’t just have an endless list of attackers sitting around waiting for injuries.

Typically, you’re looking at around three or four attacking options on the bench at most, with the rest made up of midfielders, defenders and a goalkeeper. So yes, the quality of our attacking depth wasn’t where it needed to be, but saying we had few attacking options simply isn’t accurate.

This season, assuming Zirkzee goes, we have:
  • Sesko
  • Mbeumo
  • Cunha
  • Rashford
  • Dorgu
  • Amad
  • Lacey
  • Thompson
That’s eight players who can contribute in the attacking areas. So unless the argument is that we should have 10–12 attackers just sitting around in case three get injured at once, I’d say that’s more than enough depth.

The issue last season was the quality and balance of those options, not the sheer number of them. There’s a pretty important distinction there.

Well yes, of course I'm including quality when assessing attacking options! Also variety. To compete at a high level you need a variety of high quality attacking options who can actually come on and change a game. Lacey hadn't really broken through yet and Mount, whilst useful in some tactical regards, hadn't really been a reliable game breaker for us as an attacking sub. Zirkzee being heavily used as an attacking sub despite him not offering very much on any consistent basis points to our lack of depth there. Compare the attacking options on our bench to that of our rivals, and we were clearly short. It was obvious we needed more than that for competing on multiple fronts against the likes of City this season, and coming into the season it looks like we will have a bit more.

My point above was that there will be minutes for Lacey and he should stick around. Do you actually disagree with that? You've included him in your list so it seems not.

No idea where this "endless list of attackers sitting around waiting for injuries" nonsense is coming from. Did I claim we needed that or are you just trying to argue against something you've made up?
 
It's not about deeper it's about defensive ability, Mainoo playmaking deep but with Casemiro next to him is very different than him playing with Mount/Tielemans. Can you get away with it in some games? Sure, but if we have to get onto big games like that we're screwed.

Yea that makes sense

So you think we need another #6 vs another #8?

My concern is if we sign another #6 then we are just a Tielemans injury away from a midfield with no control. I am actually less concerned about a Santos injury than a Tielemans injury, because I think we need more control in midfield. Even in the back half of the season, we had far less possession than teams that win titles do

I guess you could assuage both concerns with an elite ball-playing #6, but there are very few around and even fewer available
 
Well yes, of course I'm including quality when assessing attacking options! Also variety. To compete at a high level you need a variety of high quality attacking options who can actually come on and change a game. Lacey hadn't really broken through yet and Mount, whilst useful in some tactical regards, hadn't really been a reliable game breaker for us as an attacking sub. Zirkzee being heavily used as an attacking sub despite him not offering very much on any consistent basis points to our lack of depth there. Compare the attacking options on our bench to that of our rivals, and we were clearly short. It was obvious we needed more than that for competing on multiple fronts against the likes of City this season, and coming into the season it looks like we will have a bit more.

My point above was that there will be minutes for Lacey and he should stick around. Do you actually disagree with that? You've included him in your list so it seems not.

No idea where this "endless list of attackers sitting around waiting for injuries" nonsense is coming from. Did I claim we needed that or are you just trying to argue against something you've made up?

I think you probably should have been a bit clearer with your original wording then. You said “last season we had so few attacking options off the bench”. Now you’re saying you meant we lacked high-quality, varied attacking options. If that’s what you meant, then that’s what you should have said because we didn’t lack attacking options. We lacked the quality and variety you’d ideally want from those options, which is a different point entirely. I don’t think that’s particularly difficult to distinguish.

And yes, I agree Lacey should stay. It’ll be interesting to see where Carrick actually uses him though. He’s looked pretty good as the roaming 10 during pre-season, but he can obviously play out wide as well. Having that versatility will certainly make it easier for him to get minutes, especially if he can show Carrick he’s capable of contributing in more than one position.

As for the “endless list of attackers” nonsense, that came directly from what you actually wrote. You said we had “so few attacking options off the bench”, so I was obviously responding to the implication that we were short on attacking numbers. I wasn’t claiming you literally said we needed 10–12 attackers sitting around.

Maybe just think a little more carefully about your wording next time, especially considering how anal you usually are about people being precise with theirs. You can’t complain about someone interpreting your wording when you’ve now had to clarify what you actually meant by it.
 
Yea that makes sense

So you think we need another #6 vs another #8?

My concern is if we sign another #6 then we are just a Tielemans injury away from a midfield with no control. I am actually less concerned about a Santos injury than a Tielemans injury, because I think we need more control in midfield. Even in the back half of the season, we had far less possession than teams that win titles do

I guess you could assuage both concerns with an elite ball-playing #6, but there are very few around and even fewer available

If pre season is anything to go by, Santos is that player ball playing 6. Mainoo did a great job in that role at the back end of last season, too.
 
That’s not really true though. You can argue we didn’t have the quality you’d expect from a squad aspiring to win major trophies, but saying we had “few attacking options” is a completely different argument. Go back and actually look at some of the benches we had and you’ll see that.

Yes, we struggled a bit when Dorgu got injured, but we still had Zirkzee, Mount, Sesko and Lacey available on the bench. Again, I’m not really sure how you think squad building works, but you can’t just have an endless list of attackers sitting around waiting for injuries.

Typically, you’re looking at around three or four attacking options on the bench at most, with the rest made up of midfielders, defenders and a goalkeeper. So yes, the quality of our attacking depth wasn’t where it needed to be, but saying we had few attacking options simply isn’t accurate.

This season, assuming Zirkzee goes, we have:
  • Sesko
  • Mbeumo
  • Cunha
  • Rashford
  • Dorgu
  • Amad
  • Lacey
  • Thompson
That’s eight players who can contribute in the attacking areas. So unless the argument is that we should have 10–12 attackers just sitting around in case three get injured at once, I’d say that’s more than enough depth.

The issue last season was the quality and balance of those options, not the sheer number of them. There’s a pretty important distinction there.
Lacey won't get much time, Thompson will get basically none, they are not ready.
 
It’s highly likely we sign no 3rd midfielder. The club had multiple midfield targets lined up earlier in the summer but clearly underestimated the competition for those players. Tonali and Fernandes they weren’t willing to pay the price. Scott felt like a pipe dream. Wharton doesn’t make much sense with mainoo already here. Baleba is injured. Tchouameni signed a new deal. I just can’t see ineos forcing a signing unless an amazing market opportunity comes up
So should we have paid £100m inc addons for Tonali, also were never gonna pay £85m upfront for Fernandes?
 
I think you probably should have been a bit clearer with your original wording then. You said “last season we had so few attacking options off the bench”. Now you’re saying you meant we lacked high-quality, varied attacking options. If that’s what you meant, then that’s what you should have said because we didn’t lack attacking options. We lacked the quality and variety you’d ideally want from those options, which is a different point entirely. I don’t think that’s particularly difficult to distinguish.

And yes, I agree Lacey should stay. It’ll be interesting to see where Carrick actually uses him though. He’s looked pretty good as the roaming 10 during pre-season, but he can obviously play out wide as well. Having that versatility will certainly make it easier for him to get minutes, especially if he can show Carrick he’s capable of contributing in more than one position.

As for the “endless list of attackers” nonsense, that came directly from what you actually wrote. You said we had “so few attacking options off the bench”, so I was obviously responding to the implication that we were short on attacking numbers. I wasn’t claiming you literally said we needed 10–12 attackers sitting around.

Maybe just think a little more carefully about your wording next time, especially considering how anal you usually are about people being precise with theirs. You can’t complain about someone interpreting your wording when you’ve now had to clarify what you actually meant by it.

What I wrote was fine, thanks. I can’t predict or account for how another poster may interpret a phrase or a sentence, nor any ensuing rant which may follow. You questioned what I meant and I explained it in further detail, which is also fine. I just didn’t understand your “endless list of attackers” hyperbole.

And yes, we lacked attacking options off the bench last season. That doesn’t mean our bench was empty, but more than what was on it was insufficient. A lot of the talk on the caf this summer has been over a need for us to add some different attacking options, which seems to confirm the point.

The fact that your list also includes a couple of players who weren’t available to us last season, also seems to confirm it.

As it stands now, I’m happier with our attacking options going into this season than what we had last season, even if I’d have rather switched Rashford and Zirkzee out for others.
 
What I wrote was fine, thanks. I can’t predict or account for how another poster may interpret a phrase or a sentence, nor any ensuing rant which may follow. You questioned what I meant and I explained it in further detail, which is also fine. I just didn’t understand your “endless list of attackers” hyperbole.

And yes, we lacked attacking options off the bench last season. That doesn’t mean our bench was empty, but more than what was on it was insufficient. A lot of the talk on the caf this summer has been over a need for us to add some different attacking options, which seems to confirm the point.

The fact that your list also includes a couple of players who weren’t available to us last season, also seems to confirm it.

As it stands now, I’m happier with our attacking options going into this season than what we had last season, even if I’d have rather switched Rashford and Zirkzee out for others.

You’ve now gone back to “we lacked attacking options” but then immediately clarifying that you don’t mean we lacked attacking players, you mean the options we had weren’t good enough. That’s exactly the distinction I was making from the start.

If someone says “we had so few attacking options off the bench”, the natural interpretation is that there weren’t many attacking options available. It’s not exactly some outrageous misreading that requires a disclaimer afterwards. If what you actually meant was “we had attacking options, but not enough high-quality or varied ones”, then fair enough - but that is a different statement.

And the fact people on the Caf wanted more attacking options this summer doesn’t really prove otherwise. Obviously people wanted better attacking options - I did too! We’ve spent most of the summer discussing how the squad needs improving. That supports the argument that the quality needed improving, not that we literally had too few attackers.

As for my list including players who weren’t available last season, yes… because I was obviously talking about this season’s attacking options.

And even then, there isn’t actually some massive difference between what we have now and what we had last season. Rashford is essentially replacing Zirkzee, while I’ve added the two academy players - one of those being available to us last season.

So I’m not really sure what point you think that proves. Unless we’ve secretly signed a load of attackers that I’m somehow unaware of, the overall numbers haven’t suddenly changed dramatically.

Last season:

Sesko
Zirkzee
Mbeumo
Amad
Dorgu
Cunha
Mount (Mount played wide at points)
Lacey

This season:

Sesko
Rashford
Mbeumo
Amad
Dorgu
Cunha
Mount
Lacey
Thompson

Happy to take Mount out of the equation, as he’ll most likely be used in midfield this season. But if that’s the case, we still had eight attacking options last season, and we have eight this season. This proves numbers were never really the issue in the first place.

So again, there isn’t actually some huge difference in the number of attacking options available. The difference is more about the quality, balance and variety of those options.

In an ideal world, I’d probably let Rashy go, move Dorgu to left back with Shaw, and bring in a winger with a similar profile to Amad, as well as another striker to rotate with Sesko.

That would give us a much better balance across the attacking positions and, potentially, more overall quality without having an unnecessary amount of players competing for the same spots.
 
You’ve now gone back to “we lacked attacking options” but then immediately clarifying that you don’t mean we lacked attacking players, you mean the options we had weren’t good enough. That’s exactly the distinction I was making from the start.

If someone says “we had so few attacking options off the bench”, the natural interpretation is that there weren’t many attacking options available. It’s not exactly some outrageous misreading that requires a disclaimer afterwards. If what you actually meant was “we had attacking options, but not enough high-quality or varied ones”, then fair enough - but that is a different statement.

And the fact people on the Caf wanted more attacking options this summer doesn’t really prove otherwise. Obviously people wanted better attacking options - I did too! We’ve spent most of the summer discussing how the squad needs improving. That supports the argument that the quality needed improving, not that we literally had too few attackers.

As for my list including players who weren’t available last season, yes… because I was obviously talking about this season’s attacking options.

And even then, there isn’t actually some massive difference between what we have now and what we had last season. Rashford is essentially replacing Zirkzee, while I’ve added the two academy players - one of those being available to us last season.

So I’m not really sure what point you think that proves. Unless we’ve secretly signed a load of attackers that I’m somehow unaware of, the overall numbers haven’t suddenly changed dramatically.

Last season:

Sesko
Zirkzee
Mbeumo
Amad
Dorgu
Cunha
Mount (Mount played wide at points)
Lacey

This season:

Sesko
Rashford
Mbeumo
Amad
Dorgu
Cunha
Mount
Lacey
Thompson

Happy to take Mount out of the equation, as he’ll most likely be used in midfield this season. But if that’s the case, we still had eight attacking options last season, and we have eight this season. This proves numbers were never really the issue in the first place.

So again, there isn’t actually some huge difference in the number of attacking options available. The difference is more about the quality, balance and variety of those options.

In an ideal world, I’d probably let Rashy go, move Dorgu to left back with Shaw, and bring in a winger with a similar profile to Amad, as well as another striker to rotate with Sesko.

That would give us a much better balance across the attacking positions and, potentially, more overall quality without having an unnecessary amount of players competing for the same spots.

Please, give it a rest. It feels like you’re just spoiling for an argument and I have no interest in cnuting up the thread with it. I said something, you questioned what I meant, I very clearly explained what I meant, and you basically seem to agree with that despite trying your damndest to keep arguing about it with yet another rant.

“Options” can mean various things. For me it meant we were lacking things like pace, directness, goals. When you’re listing off Mount, Zirkzee, and someone like Lacey (who wasn’t even in the squad for most of the season) as our options then that kinda sums it up for me.

It’s not perfect but I think we’re now slightly better placed with attacking options off the bench this season than we were last season. And Zirkzee is still our player by the way - nice try removing him to make the numbers look the same though.
 
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That’s not really true though. You can argue we didn’t have the quality you’d expect from a squad aspiring to win major trophies, but saying we had “few attacking options” is a completely different argument. Go back and actually look at some of the benches we had and you’ll see that.

Yes, we struggled a bit when Dorgu got injured, but we still had Zirkzee, Mount, Sesko and Lacey available on the bench. Again, I’m not really sure how you think squad building works, but you can’t just have an endless list of attackers sitting around waiting for injuries.

Typically, you’re looking at around three or four attacking options on the bench at most, with the rest made up of midfielders, defenders and a goalkeeper. So yes, the quality of our attacking depth wasn’t where it needed to be, but saying we had few attacking options simply isn’t accurate.

This season, assuming Zirkzee goes, we have:
  • Sesko
  • Mbeumo
  • Cunha
  • Rashford
  • Dorgu
  • Amad
  • Lacey
  • Thompson
That’s eight players who can contribute in the attacking areas. So unless the argument is that we should have 10–12 attackers just sitting around in case three get injured at once, I’d say that’s more than enough depth.

The issue last season was the quality and balance of those options, not the sheer number of them. There’s a pretty important distinction there.
Obviously people mean good options when they talk about options. If we want players not good enough (or yet), there’s always a handful you pick from the youth and reserve teams.

We seem to be going into the season pretending we still have a game a week.
 
Please, give it a rest. It feels like you’re just spoiling for an argument and I have no interest in cnuting up the thread with it. I said something, you questioned what I meant, I very clearly explained what I meant, and you basically seem to agree with that despite trying your damndest to keep arguing about it with yet another rant.

“Options” can mean various things. For me it meant we were lacking things like pace, directness, goals. When you’re listing off Mount, Zirkzee, and someone like Lacey (who wasn’t even in the squad for most of the season) as our options then that kinda sums it up for me.

It’s not perfect but I think we’re now slightly better placed with attacking options off the bench this season than we were last season. And Zirkzee is still our player by the way - nice try removing him to make the numbers look the same though.

I understand you’re frustrated because you’ve been corrected on what you originally said, but the fact you’ve now moved on to telling me I’m “spoiling for an argument” despite me simply pointing out the facts tells me you don’t really have much else to say on the actual point. Now you've become a bit twitchy and insulting instead. Maybe you’re not actually a big fan of semantics after all, despite how much you usually seem to care about wording and people being precise.

Also, telling me to stop arguing while continuing to explain and defend your original point probably suggests you’re just as interested in the argument as I am. Maybe it's you that need to“give it a rest”
 
Obviously people mean good options when they talk about options. If we want players not good enough (or yet), there’s always a handful you pick from the youth and reserve teams.

We seem to be going into the season pretending we still have a game a week.

Our attacking options haven't changed much, yet the poster is saying they are happier with the options this season. Maybe they're happy with Rashford coming back and a youth player in Lacey getting a few games.
 
I understand you’re frustrated because you’ve been corrected on what you originally said, but the fact you’ve now moved on to telling me I’m “spoiling for an argument” despite me simply pointing out the facts tells me you don’t really have much else to say on the actual point. Now you've become a bit twitchy and insulting instead. Maybe you’re not actually a big fan of semantics after all, despite how much you usually seem to care about wording and people being precise.

Also, telling me to stop arguing while continuing to explain and defend your original point probably suggests you’re just as interested in the argument as I am. Maybe it's you that need to“give it a rest”

Corrected :lol:

No, you just struggle to understand that “options” means “good options”, twisting yourself in knots in the process.
 
Corrected :lol:

No, you just struggle to understand that “options” means “good options”, twisting yourself in knots in the process.

Yes, corrected!

The fact that you’ve changed and refined your position several times throughout this exchange probably says more than anything I could add. First it was that we had “so few attacking options”, then it became that we lacked “high-quality and varied” options, and now apparently “options” automatically means “good options”.

If that’s what you meant from the beginning, you probably should’ve just said that from the beginning. Would have saved us all a rather pointless discussion.
 
Our attacking options haven't changed much, yet the poster is saying they are happier with the options this season. Maybe they're happy with Rashford coming back and a youth player in Lacey getting a few games.

Last season
Sesko
Zirkzee
Mbeumo
Amad
Dorgu
Cunha
Mount
Lacey

This season:
Sesko
Zirkzee
Rashford
Mbeumo
Amad
Dorgu
Cunha
Mount
Lacey
Thompson

As things stand at the moment, we have more options, and more varied options going into this season than we had last season.
 
Yes, corrected!

The fact that you’ve changed and refined your position several times throughout this exchange probably says more than anything I could add. First it was that we had “so few attacking options”, then it became that we lacked “high-quality and varied” options, and now apparently “options” automatically means “good options”.

If that’s what you meant from the beginning, you probably should’ve just said that from the beginning. Would have saved us all a rather pointless discussion.

I haven’t changed anything - I’ve explained what I meant because you didn't understand it. But as the old saying goes, I can help explain it to you, but I cannot help you understand it.
 
I haven’t changed anything - I’ve explained what I meant because you didn't understand it. But as the old saying goes, I can help explain it to you, but I cannot help you understand it.

Had you explained correctly initially, I wouldn't have quoted you in the first place.
 
Last season
Sesko
Zirkzee
Mbeumo
Amad
Dorgu
Cunha
Mount
Lacey

This season:
Sesko
Zirkzee
Rashford
Mbeumo
Amad
Dorgu
Cunha
Mount
Lacey
Thompson

As things stand at the moment, we have more options, and more varied options going into this season than we had last season.

For someone who supposedly doesn’t want to “cnut the thread”, you’re doing a pretty good job of continuing the discussion :lol: But hey, I’m quite happy to carry on if you are.

Yes, we have more options numerically, but according to you, “options” means good options, right? So I’d genuinely like you to explain how this season’s attacking options are actually more varied.

You might disagree, but I don’t think Lacey or Thompson will get much game time at all. I’m not saying that to suit my argument either - I’ve still included them as options, just as I included Lacey last season. I could quite easily have included Chido as an option last season and this season too, but I wouldn’t suddenly use that to suggest we had significantly greater attacking depth.

So, going off your definition of “options”, I’d love to know what exactly has changed so dramatically that you’re happier with the attacking options this season. If Zirkzee leaves, we’re essentially replacing him with Rashford. How does that suddenly make the options significantly more varied or better?

And even if Zirkzee stays, what’s the huge difference?

Realistically, from the 10 players listed, probably nine are genuine first-team options because, as I’ve already said, Mount is likely to be used primarily as a midfielder. Of those nine, you can only have six in the matchday squad if we’re talking about three starters and three attacking options on the bench.

So who are the three that miss out?

That’s the bit I’m genuinely interested in. Because once you actually break it down rather than just saying “we have more varied options”, I’m struggling to see this huge difference you’re talking about.
 
Our attacking options haven't changed much, yet the poster is saying they are happier with the options this season. Maybe they're happy with Rashford coming back and a youth player in Lacey getting a few games.
I agree. Rashford has no business being back and Lacey is a baby who we have idea if he’ll make it or not. As things stand, our attacking options are fine but nothing special. Our fans love to crown new signings as big successes too soon but for me even Cunha, Sesko and Mbuemo have to prove whether they can be top players or are pretty good ones. The supporting cast is, Dorgu aside, quite poor.

I think we have other areas in greater need of strengthening but if we add in attack - I want real quality. Players who with the natural talent to usurp the current attacking options not play second fiddle as if our front three is set in stone for years to come.