Behind the Curtain draft (Eastern Europe) | 1/8 | BorisDeLeFora vs Gio 5:14

[harms]

@BorisDeLeFora __________________________________________________ @Gio @Theon

The draft thread with lots of additional information
Write-ups on specific players

BorisDeLeFora

Basically the plan is to get the ball to my attack as quickly as possible. Through my back four and defensive midfielders I have players who are technically capable of playing quality passes forward.

Bora Kostic on the left flank was known for having an exceptional left foot and could ping balls with wicked power and accuracy into the goal or onto an attackers head, which is convenient because Kocsis was an exceptional header of the ball. On the other flank Milutinovic was known for his pace, dribbling technique, and directness. Susic is up against a great defensive midfielder, thus will look to float from side to side and slightly deeper in order to find space and get turned, a role he is more than comfortable in performing.

In terms of goal scoring;

Milutinovic: 123 in 278
Susic: 176 in 581
Kostic: 198 in 325
Kocsis: 347 in 393

The defensive midfield is made up of two solid all round competitors, who will give a lot of protection to the back for and will also have the capability to pick out players ahead of them.

There is a great balance between my centre back partnership, Apolzan was one of the very first players to play in the Libero position and combined good ability on the ball with great speed and anticipation, whilst Meszoly was known as the "blond rock" and will perform more stopper type duties. Chivu on the left will play a defensive role given his natural position of centre back, but his passing out from the back will be a great advantage in terms of getting the ball to my attacking quartet quickly. Piszcek on the other side has consistently been amongst the best right backs in the world for a while now, and his speed will be very important if he comes up 1 vs. 1 with Blokhin. He will also offer a threat from deep in an attacking point of view.

Yashin is.

Gio and Theon

TACTICS:

We set up in a 4-3-3 defined by searing pace on the flanks and a blend of steel and class through the spine. Two of the strongest full-backs in the pool, Vladimir Bezsonov and Evgeny Lovchev, man the flanks and will be expected to squeeze out Kostic and Milutinovic respectively. West German stopper 'the Bull' Wolfgang Weber is the standout defender on the park and will be tasked with using his ferocious athleticism and prodigious leap to deal with the great Kocsis. Alongside him one of the finest Soviet Union defenders of all time in Anatoliy Bashashkin can both cover and kickstart many of our moves on the ball. The midfield is led by the captain and peerless Valery Voronin who will be primarily concerned with commanding the centre of the park and strangling Susic out of the game. He is ably assisted by Alexsander Zavarov whose sheer class on the ball complements his energetic pressing game. Alongside him is one of the handful of truly special Eastern European no 10s in Dragan Sekularac. His exceptional close control and passing range should be too much for Petrov and Kyrchowiak to handle and should provide the attack with a steady stream of service. Zavarov's partner in crime for much of the 1980s and the Ballon D'Or winner in 1986 Igor Belanov operates as a right-sided striker using his endless energy to break from midfield to attack and back again. The point of the attack is the complete no 9 Wlodek Lubanski who was such a tour de force for Górnik Zabrze and Poland and should link up well with those around him. The final piece of the jigsaw is 1975 Ballon D'Or winner Oleg Blokhin, the left-sided flying machine, who should cause Piszcek all sorts of problems.

WHY WE WILL WIN:

• Fortunately we have strengths to counter where Boris is particularly good. He has an excellent attacking midfielder, pair of wingers and a legendary goalscorer in Kocsis. However, we have the strongest DM in the draft to deal with Susic, have invested in a very credible pair of athletic full-backs to deal with an excellent pair of wingers, and can deploy the Bull Weber whose aerial ability matches up well to golden head and whose overall pedigree - rated 'world class' by Kicker 3 times in 4 seasons - gives us confidence.
• I fancy us to have the edge in midfield. Voronin is the best midfielder on the park, Zavarov is considered by some as the most talented player to come out of Ukraine and a regular in the Ballon D'Or rankings in the 1980s (6th, 17th, 8th, 19th), and Sekularac should have too much in his locker for Petrov and Kyrchowiak.
• Blokhin standing up Piszcek is bound to be a chance creation highway. On the other side, Belanov's bustling mobility will make life uncomfortable for Chivu and Mezsoly, who both had some solid strengths, but neither of whom are likely to have the quickness of feet to deal with what they're up against.

 

[Gio]

Spoiler: Player Profiles

PLAYER PROFILES​

IVO VIKTOR
Amongst goalkeepers only Buffon and Yashin have finished higher than the 3rd place Viktor came in the 1976 Ballon D'Or. That was due reward for a sensational year as the bedrock behind Czechoslovakia's Euro 1976 victory. Not that he was a one-season wonder by any stretch, 5 times securing the Czechoslovakia Player of the Year among what was a golden generation of his teammates. Imperious in the air and an exceptional shot stopper.

VLADIMIR BEZSONOV
One of the greatest right-backs of the 1980s and a greyhound down that right flank for Kiev and the USSR. Competitive and sometimes featured in the centre of midfield.

EVGENY LOVCHEV
Electric left-back who was both fleet of foot and quick of mind. Tidy on the ball, shining particularly in the USSR's run to the Olympics final in 1972 when he was also awarded Soviet Union Player of the Year.

WOLFGANG WEBER
Nicknamed the Bull for his imposing and uncompromising style of play, Weber is one of the greatest West German stoppers of all time, one of the biggest icons of Köln's success in the 1960s with Karl-Heinz Schnellinger and Wolfgang Overath, the scorer of West Germany's equalizer in the 1966 final vs England, was the highest ranked defender in the German Footballer of the Year award in 1965, and was voted World Class twice by Kicker. Weber combined excellent man marking skills with tackling intuition, superior heading, and immense commitment to emerge as the defensive anchor for a Köln team that won 2 German championships, and 3 DFB-Pokal titles; apart from turning out 53 times for the West German national team.

ANATOLIY BASHASHKIN
Regarded as one of the finest Soviet Union defenders of all time despite retiring before the 1960s golden generation conquered Europe. That's testament to his performances during the 1950s when he led the Soviet defence to two consecutive Olympic finals in '52 and '56, winning the latter. In what was a goal-strewn era, it was remarkable just how tight a ship Bashashkin ran: they conceded just 2 goals in 5 games, never conceding before the 90th minute of any tie. He was well regarded for his leadership, competitiveness as a defender, and ability on the ball to kickstart counter-attacks and spray passes out to wide attackers.

VALERY VORONIN
Hugely influential in the Soviet Union team of the 1960s, Voronin was a commanding presence in the heart of midfield, was named in the 1962 World Cup team of the tournament and twice won the national Player of the Year award in 1964 and 1965.

ALEXSANDER ZAVAROV
Nimble and technically delightful midfielder who was even compared to Maradona. Typically considered the star of the 1980s Kiev side and voted 6th, 8th, 17th and 19th in the Ballon D'Or, he was capable of the sublime but always grafted hard in Lebanovskiy's industrious set-up.

DRAGAN SEKULARAC
Held in rarefied levels of esteem in Belgrade, Seki was a quick and crafty inside-right who stands alongside any others produced by Yugoslavia and its successor states. Much sought after by Juventus in the late 1950s, he was later named in the 1960 Euro Team of the Tournament, one of 5 stars of Red Star, and ranked as the 8th greatest attacking midfielder of all-time by France Football in 1985.

IGOR BELANOV
Busy attacker who had the energy and appetite to buzz around a main centre-forward. Often had to piss in the bottle to satisfy drug testers who were as impressed as everyone else with his Duracell Bunny performances. An unfashionable winner of the 1986 Ballon D'Or, but well deserved for a barnstorming World Cup in Mexico following up on his 1985 Cup Winners Cup success.

OLEG BLOKHIN
Electric wide forward who beat peak Johan Cruyff and Franz Beckenbauer to the Ballon D'Or in 1975. That was part recognition for an outstanding solo effort against Bayern Munich in winning the Super Cup. One of the greatest left-sided attackers of all time.

WLODEK LUBANSKI
A complete centre-forward - very quick, excellent finisher - be it in the box off either foot, in the air, or from range - adept at working the front line, pressing from the front dovetailing with other creative players. Won the UEFA Golden Player Award for Poland as their standout from the last 50 years. Precocious talent having made his goalscoring debut for the national team at just 16 in a national team career of 75 appearances and 48 goals. Used to tear it up in Europe a for Gornik Zabrze, scoring against United in 1968 (pushing them dangerously close to an exit on their way to the big one), Rangers in 1969 and is one of the all-time top scorers in the Cup Winners Cup (and has the best ratio amongst all the top players including the likes of Gerd Muller and Hristo Stoichkov). Featured in a World XI in 1971 for Yashin's farewell game.

All the best @BorisDeLeFora

 

[harms]

The only issue I see with Gio's team is Zavarov/Secularac, although it was Lobanovsky, who had some obscure opinions, but it's Zavarov's presence that never allowed Cherenkov to become a crucial part of the national team and ideally he plays as a hardworking number 10; and Sekularac is more of a forward. It's only a first round though and Gio will have a chance to adjust the balance if he'll go through

The rest of that team is brilliant, that front three is almost perfect and the backline is nicely balanced. Making Voronin a key figure is also a plus in my eyes, as I'm a huge personal fan of his.

 

[Enigma_87]

The only issue I see with Gio's team is Zavarov/Secularac, although it was Lobanovsky, who had some obscure opinions, but it's Zavarov's presence that never allowed Cherenkov to become a crucial part of the national team and ideally he plays as a hardworking number 10; and Sekularac is more of a forward. It's only a first round though and Gio will have a chance to adjust the balance if he'll go through

The rest of that team is brilliant, that front three is almost perfect and the backline is nicely balanced. Making Voronin a key figure is also a plus in my eyes, as I'm a huge personal fan of his.

To add to that Weber IMO is not a good fit for Kocsis. He is relatively short, and in contrast to other short, but great headers of the ball like Passarella, he didn't have a big leap on him. He was more of a stopper/DM from the WC games I've seen of him during the 66' WC and generally I can see Kocsis having a big advantage there if he's the one responsible for attacking the first ball.

Now I don't know much about Bashashkin so probably @Gio can shed some light on him and whether he would be a better fit for dealing with him.

My other objection apart from Zavarov/Secularac is Belanov as a right sided attacker. IMO his best was as a AM or a SS or a CF. Sure he can play in that role, but IMO it is a bit taking away from his game.

Apart from that - excellent full backs in Bessonov/Lovchev, arguably the best DM in the draft in Voronin and really like the synergy between Lubanski and Blokhin.

On Boris's side what I like is his strategy and the way he has built his team - it's rather simple and on its day very effective - get the ball on the wings or to Susic and provide service to Kocsis. I can see having some space inbetween Bessonov and Lovchev when they charge forward, but the key to this game is how well the defensive unit can hold the fort.

 

[harms]

My other objection apart from Zavarov/Secularac is Belanov as a right sided attacker. IMO his best was as a AM or a SS or a CF. Sure he can play in that role, but IMO it is a bit taking away from his game.

Nah, he is perfectly alright there. I'd be against him further on the wing, although he played there too and not without success, but on the right side on a front 3? He played with Blokhin in a fluid front two where they both went to the wing to find a free space and he is naturally right-sided.

Here's an assist from a right wing position (he played as a right midfielder that day)

If you'll look at his goals, they are mostly from that right inside channel (discounting penalties).

With Lubanski and Blokhin being quite mobile I see this fluid unit working like a charm, actually


If you want to make the most of Belanov, you'll play him centrally, but in any fantasy side where there are more talented attackers you'll need to move him somewhere, and the right side is a great place for him

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

@Gio are you playing with Lobanovskyi style tactics?

 

[harms]

To add to that Weber IMO is not a good fit for Kocsis. He is relatively short, and in contrast to other short, but great headers of the ball like Passarella, he didn't have a big leap on him. He was more of a stopper/DM from the WC games I've seen of him during the 66' WC and generally I can see Kocsis having a big advantage there if he's the one responsible for attacking the first ball.

Now I don't know much about Bashashkin so probably @Gio can shed some light on him and whether he would be a better fit for dealing with him.

That is a valid concern - Bashashkin's best qualities were his reading of the game and his passing game, he wasn't a physical monster in any way. Didn't know much about Weber to be fair. Makes it closer, with Kocsis definitely being able to score here.

 

[Enigma_87]

Nah, he is perfectly alright there. I'd be against him further on the wing, although he played there too and not without success, but on the right side on a front 3? He played with Blokhin in a fluid front two where they both went to the wing to find a free space and he is naturally right-sided.

Here's an assist from a right wing position (he played as a right midfielder that day)

If you'll look at his goals, they are mostly from that right inside channel (discounting penalties).

With Lubanski and Blokhin being quite mobile I see this fluid unit working like a charm, actually


If you want to make the most of Belanov, you'll play him centrally, but in any fantasy side where there are more talented attackers you'll need to move him somewhere, and the right side is a great place for him

aye, that's basically it. To me he's at his best moving vertically between the lines in the center. He has a great pace tho so this is probably the slightest concern out of the three mentioned above. I can see him stretching the play and using his speed on the wing. He is also very creative player and had like 6 assists in Mexico? The thing is how well he can exploit the space left by Boris back line as it seems that he's opting for a deep line and pinging the balls to the wings/up top while overlapping the midfield, which IMO is the most sensible approach given Gio's midfield.

 

[Joga Bonito]

Two nicely crafted sides. Really like Boris's wing duo here and I was always curious about that Yugoslav generation - Vukas, Milutinovic, Kostic and Vukas, and they were the players that I was referring to earlier in the main thread. Nice to see them featuring here. With Kocsis as the spearhead, it sure makes for a tasty forward trio, and like harms stated I can see Kocsis or one of his wing-forwards getting some joy here. Not too sold on that midfield duo though and they are up against a truly tricky customer in Sekularac. Likewise it's very hard to look past Piszeck against one of the stand-out players of the draft in Blokhin, although I can see the solid defensive core of Apolzan-Meszoly-Yashin offering some nice protection and a safety net here.

Lots to like about Gio/Theon's side as well and I can see Sekularac in particular having a good game here. Likewise Voronin is someone whom I rate a lot and was an unique blend of being a classy operator on the ball and a really astute ball-winner off it. Can see him being influential in this game. That forward trio is also amongst the best in the draft quality-wise, but I do think someone more creative than Belanov could have complemented and relatively brought more out of the Blokhin-Lubanski duo. Not that Belanov is a bad fit as such, and he is a fairly well-rounded attacker but he was primarily a goalscoring and a direct foraging attacker, and whilst I see the rationale behind that attack with 2 great wing-backs, I'd have preferred a relatively more creative right sided player, who brings something different to the table in that attack. Same goes for Zakarov and whilst he is well-rounded (and definitely industrious) enough to make it work (as is Belanov in that forward trio), I do think a more 'midfielder-ish #8' could have been a better fit with Sekularac and three really attack minded and direct forwards ahead, for a wee bit more solidity.

As it stands, got to go with Gio/Theon as I think they have certain key match-ups in their favour and I can see them wrestling control of midfield, with Sekularac and Blokhin giving them enough for a win here.

 

[BorisDeLeFora]

I like Gio's team a lot tbh, has a nice balance to it, and some quality players to give it the extra edge.

I think my team would create chances, the dribbling ability of Susic and Milutinovic would allow either to break a challenge at some stage, and more often than not you back Kocsis to score. He has a good centre back pairing but they are up against an all time great.

Unfortunately at the other end I think Gio's side creates more, there's probably a greater advantage to his attacking threat vs. my defence as opposed to the other way around, so you end up in a situation where you hope an inspired superman like Yashin keeps everything out at one end, and Kocsis buries a couple of chances at the other.

 

[Enigma_87]

I like Gio's team a lot tbh, has a nice balance to it, and some quality players to give it the extra edge.

I think my team would create chances, the dribbling ability of Susic and Milutinovic would allow either to break a challenge at some stage, and more often than not you back Kocsis to score. He has a good centre back pairing but they are up against an all time great.

Unfortunately at the other end I think Gio's side creates more, there's probably a greater advantage to his attacking threat vs. my defence as opposed to the other way around, so you end up in a situation where you hope an inspired superman like Yashin keeps everything out at one end, and Kocsis buries a couple of chances at the other.

I like your side a lot given the clear approach you are on in this game and a gameplan. I think you have advantages here and there and probably utilize the strengths of your team in the best possible way.
Where Gio's team has an advantage is that individually he has a bit more quality across the lines apart from the keeper and Kocsis. And indeed is a game as you described that both of them need to be at their absolute best.

 

[harms]

Unfortunately at the other end I think Gio's side creates more, there's probably a greater advantage to his attacking threat vs. my defence as opposed to the other way around, so you end up in a situation where you hope an inspired superman like Yashin keeps everything out at one end, and Kocsis buries a couple of chances at the other.

Yeah, the one obvious downside in those draft shenanigans is that we always go with the more probable scenario and ignore the ability of great players to turn up against the odds, and Kocsis + Yashin is a pairing that can win literally every game for you on their day

 

[Ecstatic]

Susic

 

[Gio]

A lot of fair comments. We'll just pick up on a couple of points.

To add to that Weber IMO is not a good fit for Kocsis. He is relatively short, and in contrast to other short, but great headers of the ball like Passarella, he didn't have a big leap on him. He was more of a stopper/DM from the WC games I've seen of him during the 66' WC and generally I can see Kocsis having a big advantage there if he's the one responsible for attacking the first ball..

Au contraire, Weber had a fantastic leap on him.

A physically strong stopper nicknamed ‘bull’ who was extremely good at headers, had excellent positioning and anticipation, not a brute but a relatively skilled defender, albeit one of the harder ones around

 

[Theon]

The only issue I see with Gio's team is Zavarov/Secularac, although it was Lobanovsky, who had some obscure opinions, but it's Zavarov's presence that never allowed Cherenkov to become a crucial part of the national team and ideally he plays as a hardworking number 10; and Sekularac is more of a forward. It's only a first round though and Gio will have a chance to adjust the balance if he'll go through

The rest of that team is brilliant, that front three is almost perfect and the backline is nicely balanced. Making Voronin a key figure is also a plus in my eyes, as I'm a huge personal fan of his.

It was actually when we picked Voronin that we decided to go this route and the side is actually more balanced that it could have been, as we were considering picking two proper #10's in front of Voronin rather than Zavarov who is more of an offensive #8 who could also play as a #10.

My point being there is that tactically this is what we intended to do with the side and there wasn't any oversight on our part. It's intentionally offensive as we felt that was the best way to go with the stacked offensive talent in the Eastern European pool and we thought it would give the most entertaining/interesting side.

I actually would have happily played Savicevic and Sekularac (for example) in front of Voronin in a proper 4-1-4-1 which would have been extremely offensive. Goes without saying that we wouldn't have considered that route with a lesser midfielder than Voronin as the anchor.

@Gio are you playing with Lobanovskyi style tactics?

I touched on it in the draft thread that the team wasn't supposed to be a Lobanovsky remake, as I think to go that route you really need to plan it from the start and we were not sure whether the players would last. Obviously we have some key Lobanovsky players - in particular that core cluster in Blokhin, Belanov, Zavarov - but as harms is correct in pointing out, some of the other players don't quite fit the ethos and IMO the team is too offensive to be a Lobanovsky remake. Sekularac is a wonderful footballer player but he doesn't really fit that theme, being more of a free-spirit than you would associate with those teams.

That's not a negative thing though, I think we have decent balance between the disciplined, efficient, consistent players and then an elite maverick like Sekularac.

 

[Ecstatic]

Boris has a terrific attack but I'm a little bit disappointed by his defensive strategy. Maybe biased because Krychowiak is not a success in Paris

Never easy to play against Gio/Theon whose team is complete.

 

[harms]

It was actually when we picked Voronin that we decided to go this route and the side is actually more balanced that it could have been, as we were considering picking two proper #10's in front of Voronin rather than Zavarov who is more of an offensive #8 who could also play as a #10.

My point being there is that tactically this is what we intended to do with the side and there wasn't any oversight on our part. It's intentionally offensive as we felt that was the best way to go with the stacked offensive talent in the Eastern European pool and we thought it would give the most entertaining/interesting side.

I actually would have happily played Savicevic and Sekularac (for example) in front of Voronin in a proper 4-1-4-1 which would have been extremely offensive. Goes without saying that we wouldn't have considered that route with a lesser midfielder than Voronin as the anchor.

Interesting. Don't you think that there would be a significant overlap in this potential front 5 if your "wide" players are Blokhin and Belanov?

I guess we'll see what you do later! Nice too see unorthodox decisions, I'm usually too conservative myself

 

[Enigma_87]

A lot of fair comments. We'll just pick up on a couple of points.



Au contraire, Weber had a fantastic leap on him.

That's a good header, but more due to positioning rather than beating someone to it, especially Kocsis.

From that gif I think that's Roger Hunt #21, who is about the same size as Weber.

I recall in that very same game Hurst scoring the first one via a header in the box, and generally giving a lot of issues in the air - there were crosses that day and the main man with presence in the box was Tilkowski, who was shackled in the opening minutes due to clash in the air with Hurst, and after the goal again Hurst received couple of chances with with floating crosses in the box.

Again this is basing my views on the WC as that's the only games I've seen from him. I'd take those Kicker ratings with a pinch of salt during that time. Maybe @Balu has more info on him domestically.

 

[Theon]

That forward trio is also amongst the best in the draft quality-wise, but I do think someone more creative than Belanov could have complemented and relatively brought more out of the Blokhin-Lubanski duo. Not that Belanov is a bad fit as such, and he is a fairly well-rounded attacker but he was primarily a goalscoring and a direct foraging attacker, and whilst I see the rationale behind that attack with 2 great wing-backs, I'd have preferred a relatively more creative right sided player, who brings something different to the table in that attack.

Same goes for Zavarov and whilst he is well-rounded (and definitely industrious) enough to make it work (as is Belanov in that forward trio), I do think a more 'midfielder-ish #8' could have been a better fit with Sekularac and three really attack minded and direct forwards ahead, for a wee bit more solidity.

The points you've made are all valid - I've picked out the two critiques to provide some context and explain the approach (both of these were discussed in PM's so you're spot on with your analysis of the potential issues).

Taking the latter first as it follows on from the discussions above, we were aware that Zavarov was somewhat more of an offensive player than a defensive one, but that was very much part of the plan from the start (and it's clearly not that extreme, to echo your own comments he was a well-rounded and industrious midfielder - he's well within the boundaries of being a tactically viable pick here). That approach was mainly taken to make Voronin an instrumental part of the side, but it also seemed a better approach to take with the team as IMO the quality within the pool is exceptional and really shines in those areas and would lead to some lovely/fluid football. To take Zavarov as example of the quality in Eastern Europe, we picked him up fairly late but he was a genuinely excellent footballer who came 6th, 17th, 8th and 23rd in the Ballon d'Or between 1986-89 and IMO stood out most in the games I've seen of the 80's Kiev side (obviously Blokhin was slightly past his peak then).

I agree more with the first point, we took a while to make that pick to do some research. Ultimately it was a case of us judging it not to be a massive issue tactically/stylistically, due to the flexibility of Belanov but also the Kiev partnership on the right flank with Bezsonov and the width he would provide from behind. Then funnily enough we also obviously considered the partnership with Zavarov, which worked wonderfully with Belanov regularly peeling into the right channel (with Blokhin peeling to the left).

Couple of Zavarov/Belanov gifs below as an example of that partnership from Mexico '86.

Spoiler

 

[Theon]

Interesting. Don't you think that there would be a significant overlap in this potential front 5 if your "wide" players are Blokhin and Belanov?

I guess we'll see what you do later! Nice too see unorthodox decisions, I'm usually too conservative myself

Yeah there definitely would be, I don't think we would go that route now i.e. with this team as a starting point and the players we already have in the side.

 

[Gio]

That's a good header, but more due to positioning rather than beating someone to it, especially Kocsis.

From that gif I think that's Roger Hunt #21, who is about the same size as Weber.

I recall in that very same game Hurst scoring the first one via a header in the box, and generally giving a lot of issues in the air - there were crosses that day and the main man with presence in the box was Tilkowski, who was shackled in the opening minutes due to clash in the air with Hurst, and after the goal again Hurst received couple of chances with with floating crosses in the box.

Again this is basing my views on the WC as that's the only games I've seen from him. I'd take those Kicker ratings with a pinch of salt during that time. Maybe @Balu has more info on him domestically.

Happy to be corrected, but everything I know about him repeatedly suggests he was a proper athlete who loved attacking the first ball (with Willi Schulz mopping up behind).

Just as an aside on Weber, he was the nearest player to England's third 'goal' and is still quite unhappy about it...

Spoiler: Wolfgang Weber and the goal that never was

Wolfgang Weber And The Goal That Never Was

German football encounters with England are laden with history, not least because of the "Wembley Goal". Former German player Wolfgang Weber talks about 1966 and all that to Sven Goldmann and Markus Hesselmann.


Mehr Artikel

The Wembley goal has triggered a 50-year controversy between England and Germany.SOURCE: DPA/PICTURE ALLIANCE
Mention 1966 in England and you will awaken fond memories of England beating West Germany in a gripping 120-minute final to win the soccer World Cup. Mention it in Germany and you will be told that England profited from one of the greatest referee errors in soccer history.

The match has gone down in history not just because it was the only time England won a major tournament in the game it invented, but because of a goal that triggered a 50-year controversy.


It was scored by England striker Geoff Hurst, now Sir Geoff Hurst, in the 101st minute during extra time. The ball hit the crossbar and bounced in the goal mouth before German defender Wolfgang Weber headed it clear. The Swiss referee wasn’t sure whether the ball had crossed the goal line so he consulted the linesman, who said it had. As a result, England took the lead 3-2. The team scored another goal in the final seconds to win the match 4-2.

Berlin daily newspaper Der Tagesspiegel, a sister publication of Handelsblatt, interviewed Mr. Weber, now 71. He said he knew right away it wasn’t a goal and recalled being furious at the England players who immediately threw up their arms and cheered.

He ran over to England midfielder Bobby Charlton, now Sir Bobby Charlton, and tried to push his arms down. “I told him: ‘Stop it! What are you doing?’ I had seen clearly that the ball hadn’t gone in.”


Mehr Artikel

Wolfgang Weber still remembers the controversial goal.SOURCE: HENNING KAISER/DPA
He added: “The English were evidently taught early on to raise their arms as quickly as possible to influence the referee.” Indeed, the referee, Gottfried Dienst, at first ruled it wasn’t a goal but then changed his mind after consulting with Russian linesman Tofiq Bahramov. They had to communicate in sign language because Mr. B?hramov only spoke Russian and Azerbaijani.

Rules stipulated by football’s world governing body FIFA state that the whole of the ball must cross the line for it to be a goal. Mr. Weber had one of the best views in the stadium because he was close to the goal. He said it bounced onto the line, not over the line. “I said at the time what even scientists from Oxford University confirm today: The ball was not in the goal,” he said.

Not so fast, Herr Weber!
Indeed, scientists at the Department of Engineering Science at Oxford analysed video sequences of the goal and applied what they called “plane projective homographies to compute an overhead view of the action from a sequence of disparate image pairs,” according to a paper published in 1996 that concluded the ball was 6 centimeters from being a goal and suggested, prematurely, that the controversy was over.

Not so fast. British media in January 2016 reported that new analysis conducted by Britain’s Sky Sports group of pay TV channels proved the ball did cross the line.
Mr. Weber remains adamant. He even said the fourth England goal was also “irregular” because a few spectators were already running onto the pitch and entering the German penalty area when it happened.

The “Wembley Goal” has added a frisson to matches between the arch rivals ever since. In the intervening 50 years, World Cup and European Championship encounters have gone Germany’s way, several times in agonising penalty shootouts that prompted forrmer England striker Gary Lineker to redefine soccer: “Football is a simple game; 22 men chase a ball for 90 minutes and at the end, the Germans win.”

Gary Lineker proven right too often
But before every tournament, there are always tentative hopes that England could do better this time. These are especially high this year after the team’s impressive 10 wins in the 10 qualifying matches for the European Championship in France in June. It also has a strong line-up of young talent — and is buoyed by surprisingly lackluster performances by reigning four-times World Cup Champion Germany over the last year. But those hopes are tinged with the weary experience of disappointment. Mr. Lineker, now a sports broadcaster, has been proven right too often.

There have been countless similarly controversial goals in the last half-century. Yet FIFA has only just approved the testing of video technology to help referees.

Mr. Weber, meanwhile, is willing to let bygones be bygones. “Don’t get me wrong: England was a worthy world champion, a great team which won a great final,” he said. “But we made it pretty hard for them.”

He added: “It doesn’t matter; it’s over and we get on great with the England players, apart from one.” Asked who that was, he said: “Geoff Hurst, the supposed goalscorer.” Mr. Hurst, he said, still claims today that the ball was in. “You can understand that in a way; he sees himself as a hat trick scorer in a World Cup final and he still wants to be feted for it,” Mr. Weber said. “But there comes a point where it’s enough.”

Germany's revenge
Germany had its revenge in the 2010 World Cup in South Africa when a shot by England midfielder Frank Lampard came off the bar, landed a foot or more over the line, but wasn’t allowed. Germany went on to easily beat an unimpressive England 4-1, subjecting it to its worst ever defeat in a World Cup match.

“Do you want to know if I feel satisfaction? No. Lampard’s shot was too clear for that,” Mr. Weber said. “The ball was a meter inside the goal. Even Bahramov would have probably spotted that.”[/quote]

 

[Enigma_87]

Happy to be corrected, but everything I know about him repeatedly suggests he was a proper athlete who loved attacking the first ball (with Willi Schulz mopping up behind).

Aye, he was a proper athlete from what I know/seen of him, just it's more to do with his abilities on the ground, at least for me. He used to attack the first ball but imo he is inferior to the likes of Vidic or Desailly for example in the air. Not crap mind, not intended to sound like this or anything, just compared to the golden head I think it's where boris has an advantage in the box.

Also from what @harms said I think Bashashkin is kinda Schulz type of defender?

 

[Pat_Mustard]

I love Boris' attack from what I know of them and particularly appreciate that he built it to make the most out of Kocsis, but Gio/Theon's midfield, Voronin in particular, wins this for me.

 

[Joga Bonito]

The points you've made are all valid - I've picked out the two critiques to provide some context and explain the approach (both of these were discussed in PM's so you're spot on with your analysis of the potential issues).

Taking the latter first as it follows on from the discussions above, we were aware that Zavarov was somewhat more of an offensive player than a defensive one, but that was very much part of the plan from the start (and it's clearly not that extreme, to echo your own comments he was a well-rounded and industrious midfielder - he's well within the boundaries of being a tactically viable pick here). That approach was mainly taken to make Voronin an instrumental part of the side, but it also seemed a better approach to take with the team as IMO the quality within the pool is exceptional and really shines in those areas and would lead to some lovely/fluid football. To take Zavarov as example of the quality in Eastern Europe, we picked him up fairly late but he was a genuinely excellent footballer who came 6th, 17th, 8th and 23rd in the Ballon d'Or between 1986-89 and IMO stood out most in the games I've seen of the 80's Kiev side (obviously Blokhin was slightly past his peak then).

I agree more with the first point, we took a while to make that pick to do some research. Ultimately it was a case of us judging it not to be a massive issue tactically/stylistically, due to the flexibility of Belanov but also the Kiev partnership on the right flank with Bezsonov and the width he would provide from behind. Then funnily enough we also obviously considered the partnership with Zavarov, which worked wonderfully with Belanov regularly peeling into the right channel (with Blokhin peeling to the left).

Couple of Zavarov/Belanov gifs below as an example of that partnership from Mexico '86.

Spoiler

Ah, fair enough then, understand your approach better now.

 

[harms]

Also from what @harms said I think Bashashkin is kinda Schulz type of defender?

Well, he wasn't an aerial/physical beast of Vidic/Desailly mould but rather an intelligent defender first and foremost. Still quite strong though, not like Khurtsilava though, who looked like today's Maradona when he actually played at the highest level

Using Gio's arguments:

A random anecdote.

In Soviet Union bottle of vodka was worth 3 rubles, and it was a norm to buy it for three people (1 ruble each, and it was just about enough vodka for three people). So when two guys got together, they asked around if someone wanted to be their third ("do you want to be third?/третьим будешь?"). Bashashkin was so widely associated with the number 3rd that sometime they asked ("do you want to be Bashashkin?/Башашкиным будешь?")

 

[Gio]

Well, he wasn't an aerial/physical beast of Vidic/Desailly mould but rather an intelligent defender first and foremost. Still quite strong though, not like Khurtsilava though, who looked like today's Maradona when he actually played at the highest level

Using Gio's arguments:

Leaping like a fecking salmon mate.

 

[BorisDeLeFora]

Well done @Gio , I knew myself it was the better team overall and wasn't going to attempt to bullshit around it.

Overall I probably went for Krychowiak far too early, he's probably only had one world class season behind him, and especially partnered with someone like Petrov who never reached that level, it was always going to be a major weak point.

 

[Gio]

Well done @Gio , I knew myself it was the better team overall and wasn't going to attempt to bullshit around it.

Overall I probably went for Krychowiak far too early, he's probably only had one world class season behind him, and especially partnered with someone like Petrov who never reached that level, it was always going to be a major weak point.

Cheers. Your front four were excellent and those wingers would have caused many problems against the majority of full-backs in the draft IMO.