Belfast Rugby Players Rape Trial

unchanged_lineup

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Well thankfully for all of us the court system generally listens to the evidence rather than going with the social media consensus.
He was going to be sacked so his choices of statement were pretty limited.

Maybe you agree with Craig Gilroy being sacked also, even though he wasn't even in the house or knew what had happened since he also used some bad words in a whatsapp message?

So now you know what Jackson was thinking you, do you? Why not go out all guns blazing if he's so wronged? Olding had a completely different tone in his statement.

You've got some chip on your shoulder here making you reach. Jackson himself has accepted it, I dont know why you can't.

I've never said a word about Gilroy.
 

edgar allan

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My point on Gilroy is that in the attempt of Ulster Rugby to keep the sponsorship money coming and to be seen to responsive to the social media morality they were happy to suspend someone who had nothing to do with the alleged rape.

Why not go out all guns blazing??
Is it not obvious? To try and rebuild his career in another country.
 

unchanged_lineup

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My point on Gilroy is that in the attempt of Ulster Rugby to keep the sponsorship money coming and to be seen to responsive to the social media morality they were happy to suspend someone who had nothing to do with the alleged rape.

Why not go out all guns blazing??
Is it not obvious? To try and rebuild his career in another country.
And why exactly does he need to rebuild his career? You dodged that one earlier

Why is your speculating any different from what you claim people did on social media about the trial? How do you know Gilroy didn't own up to having other breaches of the code of conduct when challenged? How do you know it's not a puritanical streak within Ulster Rugby that's behind the sanctions, rather than bowing to social media?

Seems to me it's impossible for you to know the full details unless you work for Ulster Rugby, yet you're happy to get on a high horse about how you think other people have drawn conclusions on the case themselves (despite admitting you're not well informed about the case).
 

edgar allan

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And why exactly does he need to rebuild his career? You dodged that one earlier

Why is your speculating any different from what you claim people did on social media about the trial? How do you know Gilroy didn't own up to having other breaches of the code of conduct when challenged? How do you know it's not a puritanical streak within Ulster Rugby that's behind the sanctions, rather than bowing to social media?

Seems to me it's impossible for you to know the full details unless you work for Ulster Rugby, yet you're happy to get on a high horse about how you think other people have drawn conclusions on the case themselves (despite admitting you're not well informed about the case).
He needs to rebuild his career because he was accused of a serious sexual offence.
The fact that he was cleared of the charge obviously is somehow irrelevant.

It has been the stated aim of many leading the social media outcry to ensure they never played for Ulster again and they have succeeded.
I detest the laddish sexist culture that exists in many areas but in the absence of evidence of any crime they were convicted in the moral social media court of inappropriate language and bad taste.
 
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unchanged_lineup

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He needs to rebuild his career because he was accused of a serious sexual offence.
The fact that he was cleared of the charge obviously is somehow irrelevant.

It has been the stated aim of many leading the social media outcry to ensure they never played for Ulster again and they have succeeded.
I detest the laddish sexist culture that exists in many areas but in the absence of evidence of any crime they were convicted in the moral social media court of inappropriate language and bad taste.
Are you familiar with the code of conduct they had to abide by in their contracts?

If not, you can't make that final statement with any confidence.

If there were no grounds for dismissal, let them sue Ulster Rugby. Put up or shut up.
 

edgar allan

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Do you honestly believe that the extraordinary social media response and threats of boycotts were not a major factor?
Anyway thanks for the discussion but we are on opposite pages on this one.
The case has certainly focused debate on sexual consent so hopefully it may spare others in the future from ending up in the same situation.
 

Dave89

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Do you honestly believe that the extraordinary social media response and threats of boycotts were not a major factor?
Anyway thanks for the discussion but we are on opposite pages on this one.
The case has certainly focused debate on sexual consent so hopefully it may spare others in the future from ending up in the same situation.
The court made a clear ruling on the matter of consent. They had it.

The "debate" has moved on to sexual puritanism.
 

edgar allan

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The court made a clear ruling on the matter of consent. They had it.

The "debate" has moved on to sexual puritanism.
In this case yes but the men left themselves very open to an accusation of rape and my own (speculative) opinion is that if the other female witness hadn't been there and collaborated their story the verdict may well have been different.
 

RexHamilton

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The court made a clear ruling on the matter of consent. They had it.

The "debate" has moved on to sexual puritanism.
Didn't a court make a ruling that they couldn't prove that they didn't have consent. It didn't prove they had consent.
 

sullydnl

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In this case yes but the men left themselves very open to an accusation of rape and my own (speculative) opinion is that if the other female witness hadn't been there and collaborated their story the verdict may well have been different.
Well, she corroborated their story up to a point. She said it was a consensual threesome rather than rape but also contradicted Jackson's claim that he never actually had sex with the girl, saying she was 100% sure he did. So if the jury believed her then they would logically also have to accept that Jackson was lying anyway.
 

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https://www.breakingnews.ie/sport/o...ered-to-pay-costs-in-privacy-case-840551.html

Former Ireland and Ulster rugby stars Paddy Jackson and Stuart Olding are to pay £20,000 costs as part of a settlement reached in their privacy action against the BBC, the High Court in Belfast ruled today.

The ruling has been hailed as a vindication of the broadcaster's journalism.

Mr Jackson and Mr Olding, who were both unanimously cleared of raping the same woman, sued the BBC over initial coverage of their questioning by police.

Following the outcome, BBC Northern Ireland's Head of News, Kathleen Carragher, said: "We argued throughout this case that our reporting was responsible, accurate, in the public interest and observed the BBC guidelines.

"We are pleased that the players have accepted this outcome and have also agreed a contribution to our legal costs."
 

Reapersoul20

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Paddy Jackson trending again on Twitter and a load of vicious shit being spewed against him. It pisses me off because it polarizes people so much and consequently does damage to very real fair feminist issues.

fecking stupid of London Irish to make him a co-captain though - I guess you could argue that it's only fair to treat a man as innocent. I wonder would they/he have went through with announcing it if they saw all the backlash on Twitter though.
 

unchanged_lineup

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Paddy Jackson trending again on Twitter and a load of vicious shit being spewed against him. It pisses me off because it polarizes people so much and consequently does damage to very real fair feminist issues.

fecking stupid of London Irish to make him a co-captain though - I guess you could argue that it's only fair to treat a man as innocent. I wonder would they/he have went through with announcing it if they saw all the backlash on Twitter though.
He may not have been convicted of a crime but he's very clearly a revolting person and absolutely not leadership material. That's what this is reawakening as much as the verdict.
 

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He may not have been convicted of a crime but he's very clearly a revolting person and absolutely not leadership material. That's what this is reawakening as much as the verdict.
Exactly.

Yea its very important to libel a guy on Twitter who wasn't convicted of anything because politics
I'm not sure what this has to do with politics. Nothing would be my view. I also wouldn't advocate potentially libelling someone on Twitter, although it would take a brave/stupid person to try to retry the accusations in a libel court. Win damages and you likely won't collect a penny in damages and incur huge legal fees and you might not win or win and have your reputation valued at 1 quid.

In the end what @unchanged_lineup said is true. You can not be convicted but that doesn't give you a free pass as if your behaviour didn't occur at all.
 

Reapersoul20

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Are you asking this in bad faith, or do you genuinely live under a rock?

There's this thread you're in for starters if you'd like to educate yourself. Kind of a daft question to ask here. Just go back to the start.
I have read all the facts of the case along with the messages - he said something like "did anyone feck any sluts" and pretty much feck all else proven?

So I ask again, why?

I am perfectly willing to change my POV if there is compelling, proven evidence that he is a prick.
 

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he said something like "did anyone feck any sluts"
That alone makes him a major twat and it was far from the only message. And that is only the messages aspect of the case against him. The fact he got his contract torn up also suggests he did a little more than say a naughty word.
 

Reapersoul20

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That alone makes him a major twat and it was far from the only message. And that is only the messages aspect of the case against him. The fact he got his contract torn up also suggests he did a little more than say a naughty word.
One or two messages in a group with your friends doesn't come anywhere close to deserving of all the accusations and slander that's been thrown his way since the cases end.

Genuinely, what other provable concrete facts are there that he is a prick ? Again, private messages to your friends prove feck all. You'd find worse in most peoples 'caf post history and the man is being called a violent rapist by the world at large. The whole thing is a horrible blight which cheapens the very real positive effect that shit like #metoo had - unless there's some smoking gun I've missed here - and I so hope that's the case. Otherwise it just seems like a bunch of people who have forgotten that a person is innocent until proven guilty.

I can understand the mob mentality in cases like OJ and Bailey - where it's beyond reasonable question that they are sickos. This is quite clearly not the case here. There isn't enough evidence. There is feck all evidence. Indeed the alleged victims best friend even gave a statement that she checked on her, and she seemed OK.

I'm all for throwing the book at rapists and people who sexually harass, but this isn't an open/shut case and willynilly throwing around "#ibelieveher" because it's trendy and PC is absolutely abhorrent in my book. Victims should have support and at the same time the accused should be given the benefit of the doubt. That's the only way it can work. Otherwise I can just go off and say you're a witch and the mob throws you into a river to see if you float.

I'll reiterate though - if there's solid evidence I've missed somewhere along the line, I'm happy to change my mind and bang on the "feck Jackson" drum. A few prickish texts don't form that solid evidence. From where I'm standing currently, it just seems like a lot of people piling in on a trendy cause without actually looking at the facts, a la Johnny Depp.
 
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One or two messages in a group with your friends doesn't come anywhere close to deserving of all the accusations and slander that's been thrown his way since the cases end.

Genuinely, what other provable concrete facts are there that he is a prick ? Again, private messages to your friends prove feck all. You'd find worse in most peoples 'caf post history.
You know sometimes ya don’t need proof to know someone is a piece of shit and there is actually proof here.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/cri...ete-story-of-the-belfast-rape-trial-1.3443620
 

Reapersoul20

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You know sometimes ya don’t need proof to know someone is a piece of shit and there is actually proof here.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/cri...ete-story-of-the-belfast-rape-trial-1.3443620
A piece of shit does not equal a rapist.

Also, the article just reasserts my points, to add just one quote -

There was DNA, mobile phone data and even witness statements, but none clearly pointed towards either guilt or innocence and all were adapted by both sides to help prove their cases.
 

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One or two messages in a group with your friends doesn't come anywhere close to deserving of all the accusations and slander that's been thrown his way since the cases end.

Genuinely, what other provable concrete facts are there that he is a prick ? Again, private messages to your friends prove feck all. You'd find worse in most peoples 'caf post history and the man is being called a violent rapist by the world at large. The whole thing is a horrible blight which cheapens the very real positive effect that shit like #metoo had - unless there's some smoking gun I've missed here - and I so hope that's the case. Otherwise it just seems like a bunch of people who have forgotten that a person is innocent until proven guilty.

I can understand the mob mentality in cases like OJ and Bailey - where it's beyond reasonable question that they are sickos. This is quite clearly not the case here. There isn't enough evidence. There is feck all evidence. Indeed the alleged victims best friend even gave a statement that she checked on her, and she seemed OK.

I'm all for throwing the book at rapists and people who sexually harass, but this isn't an open/shut case and willynilly throwing around "#ibelieveher" because it's trendy and PC is absolutely abhorrent in my book. Victims should have support and at the same time the accused should be given the benefit of the doubt. That's the only way it can work. Otherwise I can just go off and say you're a witch and the mob throws you into a river to see if you float.

I'll reiterate though - if there's solid evidence I've missed somewhere along the line, I'm happy to change my mind and bang on the "feck Jackson" drum. A few prickish texts don't form that solid evidence. From where I'm standing currently, it just seems like a lot of people piling in on a trendy cause without actually looking at the facts, a la Johnny Depp.
Do you think it might be because many people think he got away with the rape of a teenager? I didn't follow the case very closely at the time but I know the members of my family in NI were disgusted that he wasn't convicted.

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/dec/04/rugby-rape-trial-ireland-belfast-case

This rather balanced account of the case also isn't good reading for those defending him.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/cri...ete-story-of-the-belfast-rape-trial-1.3443620
 

Reapersoul20

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Do you think it might be because many people think he got away with the rape of a teenager? I didn't follow the case very closely at the time but I know the members of my family in NI were disgusted that he wasn't convicted.

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/dec/04/rugby-rape-trial-ireland-belfast-case

This rather balanced account of the case also isn't good reading for those defending him.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/cri...ete-story-of-the-belfast-rape-trial-1.3443620
Having read all these accounts I still fail to see any smoking gun or proof of guilt. Indeed the most compelling evidence is from the complainants friend who said that she "didn't see any rape, just saw a threesome".

A more beneficial movement would be one to fix the fecked up way in which rape cases are conducted in the UK. It's really disgusting reading the way in which the complainant was treated in the courthouse, and by the media, regardless of the rugby players guilt. Fixing that would be a positive outcome from this case and would be a worthy social movement. Targeting a potentially innocent group of fecking idiots isn't one. Shouting "#ibelieveher" into the void without looking at the bare facts is harmful for the feminist movement and benefits nobody - just polarizes arguments more.
 

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Having read all these accounts I still fail to see any smoking gun or proof of guilt. Indeed the most compelling evidence is from the complainants friend who said that she "didn't see any rape, just saw a threesome".

A more beneficial movement would be one to fix the fecked up way in which rape cases are conducted in the UK. It's really disgusting reading the way in which the complainant was treated in the courthouse and by the media regardless of her guilt. Fixing that would be a positive outcome from this case. Targeting a potentially innocent group of fecking idiots isn't one.
If that is a true representation of the evidence I'd have convicted. So it is inevitable that there is going to be a backlash when Paddy Jackson is given a leadership role even though he wasn't convicted. And backlashes tend to be quite vociferous. So while I wouldn't advocate calling him a rapist on social media I don't have any sympathy for him either.
 

unchanged_lineup

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I have read all the facts of the case along with the messages - he said something like "did anyone feck any sluts" and pretty much feck all else proven?

So I ask again, why?

I am perfectly willing to change my POV if there is compelling, proven evidence that he is a prick.
If you've read all the facts you'd know the facts I think. And you'd know the exact particulars of it, not "he said something like". Where he did he say it, for example? That'll give you the starting place to find out more about his character.
 

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Having read all these accounts I still fail to see any smoking gun or proof of guilt. Indeed the most compelling evidence is from the complainants friend who said that she "didn't see any rape, just saw a threesome".

A more beneficial movement would be one to fix the fecked up way in which rape cases are conducted in the UK. It's really disgusting reading the way in which the complainant was treated in the courthouse, and by the media, regardless of the rugby players guilt. Fixing that would be a positive outcome from this case and would be a worthy social movement. Targeting a potentially innocent group of fecking idiots isn't one. Shouting "#ibelieveher" into the void without looking at the bare facts is harmful for the feminist movement and benefits nobody - just polarizes arguments more.
Why are you defending this prick?
 

Conor

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A piece of shit does not equal a rapist.
I haven't seen anyone that you're engaged with on this page certify that he is a rapist, people are just saying he's a scrote, seems like a fair opinion to have, given all of the presented evidence etc. that is available to read.
 

unchanged_lineup

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I haven't seen anyone that you're engaged with on this page certify that he is a rapist, people are just saying he's a scrote, seems like a fair opinion to have, given all of the presented evidence etc. that is available to read.
Exactly this.

Not certain what you're hoping to achieve here with defending him to us @Reapersoul20 . All we're saying is he's a horrible human and nothing you say will change any of our opinions of that because it's based on his actual words and actions, not the result of the court case.

I think it's incredibly, incredibly naive or deliberately incendiary of London Irish to give him a leadership role.

Edit: And once again, I personally absolutely dispute that most people talk or act the way he did. I've seen that as a defense here and on Twitter and people who say it should probably look at their own way of talking about others because it's not normal or acceptable. I would not accept it from anyone I know, I'd be horrified if I had a friend who talked like that.
 

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I think @Reapersoul20 is a victim of being very naive in this case. I wonder if he defends prince Andrew and Donald trump in the same vain.

As some from NI, I believe him and some of the other lads were guilty too. Unfortunately it's common knowledge in the UK that lots of people get away with rape due to lack of evidence. And I guess when you and your friends parents are hot shot lawyers it helps just that bit more too.
 

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He's at best an unpleasant person.

And while conviction had to meet the standard of "beyond reasonable doubt", public opinion only has to be based on the balance of probability. And most people with half a brain aren't going to be on Paddy Jackson's side if asked what they think probably happened that night.

So yeah, not much sympathy if there's a backlash to him being held up as an example of leadership.
 

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I think @Reapersoul20 is a victim of being very naive in this case. I wonder if he defends prince Andrew and Donald trump in the same vain.

As some from NI, I believe him and some of the other lads were guilty too. Unfortunately it's common knowledge in the UK that lots of people get away with rape due to lack of evidence. And I guess when you and your friends parents are hot shot lawyers it helps just that bit more too.
A rape conviction is highly improbable and the people I know who have been raped, save in one case, didn't even bother reporting it due this fact and the prolonged torture of the process.
 
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sullydnl

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A rape conviction is highly improbable and the people I know who have been raped, save in one case, didn't even bother reporting it die this fact and the prolonged torture of the process.
Yep.

In the year ending March 2020 99% of rapes reported to the police in Wales & England resulted in no legal proceedings against the attackers, which is a terrifying stat.

And even if you're lucky enough that your rapist does go on trial a conviction is still unlikely. Plus even seeking it may involve you being put through an awful ordeal (the victim in the Jackson case spent 8 days in the witness box being cross-examined by four sets of barristers, for example) and then receiving abuse afterwards from members of your peer group and community (and beyond in higher profile cases) who don't believe you.

At a certain point not reporting it just seems easier.
 

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The whole thing is a horrible blight which cheapens the very real positive effect that shit like #metoo had - unless there's some smoking gun I've missed here - and I so hope that's the case.
I'm all for throwing the book at rapists and people who sexually harass, but this isn't an open/shut case and willynilly throwing around "#ibelieveher" because it's trendy and PC is absolutely abhorrent in my book.
Shouting "#ibelieveher" into the void without looking at the bare facts is harmful for the feminist movement and benefits nobody - just polarizes arguments more.
Thank god the feminist movement has people like you to champion it.