Bentancur racial slur

antohan

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There's a huge difference between Suarez and Cavani, given the circumstances. The Betancur incident isn't really like either to be honest. It's probably just ignorance but I don't see how you determine intent in Betancur's case.
It's simple. There clearly isn't any.
 

antohan

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The meaning of the joke is extremely clear. It has nothing to do with Chinese people looking different than Japanese people, but that Betancour wouldn't be able to pick one South Korean apart from another, or one Asian from another Asian, depending on how "precise" his joke is. He's joking about not being able to tell the difference between e.g. Son Heung-min, Park Ji-sung, Kim Dae-jung and Psy, because they all look the same.



They have similar hair colour, that's basically it.
That's quite the selection you made.

How about picking a Korean boy band and a random Uruguayan NT?


Not the same, but thanks feck for hair colour


Distinctly different
 

NotThatSoph

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That's quite the selection you made.

How about picking a Korean boy band and a random Uruguayan NT?


Not the same, but thanks feck for hair colour


Distinctly different
I thought you were trying to make a weird point, but this borders on trolling. BTS is literally a designed group where the whole point is that the members conform to the current fashionable beauty standard. Here is the South Korean national team:



Distinctly different.
 

antohan

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I thought you were trying to make a weird point, but this borders on trolling. BTS is literally a designed group where the whole point is that the members conform to the current fashionable beauty standard. Here is the South Korean national team:



Distinctly different.
Guess what? Most people's exposure to Korea is through their boy bands. That was the entire point.

You just explained precisely why they would be perceived as "the same", they make a deliberate effort to do so.
 

AkaAkuma

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@antohan The cattle farm comment was a jibe with no malice.
The point being that if a player representing your country wants to make sweeping comments about a race as banter, then can the same be done in return

but then what would the return comment be about? 20 or so world class footballers and a disproportionate number of cattle. Forgive my ignorance.

Alternatively some civility and speak respectfully of your team mate and don’t be an idiot. Pretty basic stuff.
 

NotThatSoph

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Guess what? Most people's exposure to Korea is through their boy bands. That was the entire point.

You just explained precisely why they would be perceived as "the same", they make a deliberate effort to do so.
First the point was that there is less phenotypic variations between Asians than non-Asians, and that Japanese and Chinese people are distinct in a noticable way, now it's that Betancour is blasting K-pop and thinks that Son looks like his idols? At the same time as there was no intent at all behind what he said?

These are three mutually exclusive things.
 

AkaAkuma

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I’ll keep stating it. The reason it’s a shitty trope is because it’s a blatant admission that East Asians aren’t relevant in any broad discussion. If x person can’t see a physical difference they likely have no interest in you as a person or your needs.

so it’s about exclusion from society defined by race.
 

antohan

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@antohan The cattle farm comment was a jibe with no malice.
The point being that if a player representing your country wants to make sweeping comments about a race as banter, then can the same be done in return

but then what would the return comment be about? 20 or so world class footballers and a disproportionate number of cattle. Forgive my ignorance.

Alternatively some civility and speak respectfully of your team mate and don’t be an idiot. Pretty basic stuff.
I didn't understand that at all, seems like you are doubling down here if you ask me.
 

antohan

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First the point was that there is less phenotypic variations between Asians than non-Asians, and that Japanese and Chinese people are distinct in a noticable way, now it's that Betancour is blasting K-pop and thinks that Son looks like his idols? At the same time as there was no intent at all behind what he said?

These are three mutually exclusive things.
I didn't make that first point, certainly not about "Asians" as it would be completely idiotic given it spans 1/3 of the world's landmass and more than half its population.

Japanese people and Chinese people ARE distinct in a noticeable way. I stand by that.

I've no idea what music Bentancur listens to, but people's exposure to Koreans (in places where there are none) is largely limited to entertainment and, naturally, there's a narrower variation as you will have role models + people wanting to look like their role models. With Bentancur you could add that I wouldn't be at all surprised if Son's entourage actually look a lot like him, not just cousins with bloodline but chaps adopting the same styling, fashion, etc. I mean, if he were an ugly feck maybe not, but he isn't.
 

AkaAkuma

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I didn't understand that at all, seems like you are doubling down here if you ask me.
I’m not Asian, but my wife and children are and I will live the rest of my life here. The topic gives me no concern as it’s born from ignorance. I also have no ill will to Uruguay. I only know alittle of your country, but perhaps more than most would.

I’m just standing some ground because as Son showed, being respectful, having humility and avoiding conflict is the correct response, but it doesn’t stop these stupid comments continuing.
 

NotThatSoph

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I didn't make that first point, certainly not about "Asians" as it would be completely idiotic given it spans 1/3 of the world's landmass and more than half its population.

Japanese people and Chinese people ARE distinct in a noticeable way. I stand by that.

I've no idea what music Bentancur listens to, but people's exposure to Koreans (in places where there are none) is largely limited to entertainment and, naturally, there's a narrower variation as you will have role models + people wanting to look like their role models. With Bentancur you could add that I wouldn't be at all surprised if Son's entourage actually look a lot like him, not just cousins with bloodline but chaps adopting the same styling, fashion, etc. I mean, if he were an ugly feck maybe not, but he isn't.
Someone else made that point, about "Far East people", and you specifically quoted that part to agree with it.

Betancour has played against South Korea several times. He has probably watched the games he missed through injury, especially the World Cup one. It's a pretty safe assumption that a dumbass footballer from Uruguay, living in London, gets his impression of South Koreans or Asians from football and living in London.

It's an age old dumb generalization, and a just as old idiotic joke, that stupid people make about ethnicities they're not very familiar with. It's not deeper than that, it's not about phenotypic variation or boy bands. When people make the same jokes about black people, they don't have Ethiopians vs Nigerians in mind. It's just a dumb racial joke.
 

antohan

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I’m not Asian, but my wife and children are and I will live the rest of my life here. The topic gives me no concern as it’s born from ignorance.
Good for you, it has a lot going for it.

Re: ignorance, absolutely, but not in an ill-willed or judgmental way. You mentioned earlier how East Asian culture elicited disrespect or looking down. Not at all, it's simply alien to us as we have little if any exposure to it.

I know I'm putting my foot in it here and some randomer will get riled up, but Obdulio Varela, el Negro Jefe (the Black Chief), our captain at Maracana in 1950, always resorted to the term "Japanese" when creating a siege mentality.



He probably never saw a Japanese person in his entire life and obviously had no issue with them whatsoever. The entire point was it was the most alien, geographically and culturally remote thing you could conceive of so "us and them" was basically encapsulated in him referring to everyone else as Japanese, regardless of whether we were playing Bolivia, Sweden or Brazil.

We will never win any political correctness awards, that's for sure.
 

antohan

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Someone else made that point, about "Far East people", and you specifically quoted that part to agree with it.
Far East, yeah, that makes more sense. What's wrong about that? Are you saying the extent of racial mix in the Far East is comparable to that of South America, where a relatively tiny indigenous population (in terms of population density vs Asia) mixed up with massive European and African inflows over the last three centuries?
 

RedC

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The meaning of the joke is extremely clear. It has nothing to do with Chinese people looking different than Japanese people, but that Betancour wouldn't be able to pick one South Korean apart from another, or one Asian from another Asian, depending on how "precise" his joke is. He's joking about not being able to tell the difference between e.g. Son Heung-min, Park Ji-sung, Kim Dae-jung and Psy, because they all look the same.



They have similar hair colour, that's basically it.
What does 4 pictures of Son have to do with anything?
 

SirBillNic

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Guess what? Most people's exposure to Korea is through their boy bands. That was the entire point.

You just explained precisely why they would be perceived as "the same", they make a deliberate effort to do so.
It's also just a psychological fact that people tend to find it harder to distinguish faces of races other than their own, particularly if they have limited exposure through their lives. Of course you're supposed to be smart enough to realize that it's perception and not reality.

I can understand why a South American might make that joke and not realize that it's inappropriate and considered racist. That's why whether there is malicious intention is really important. In Bentancur's case there obviously isn't, whereas in the Suarez case there obviously was.
 

NotChatGPT

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It's also just a psychological fact that people tend to find it harder to distinguish faces of races other than their own, particularly if they have limited exposure through their lives. Of course you're supposed to be smart enough to realize that it's perception and not reality.

I can understand why a South American might make that joke and not realize that it's inappropriate and considered racist. That's why whether there is malicious intention is really important. In Bentancur's case there obviously isn't, whereas in the Suarez case there obviously was.
It's not really that important.

Malicious or not, it's still in direct violation of the rules, which should definitely land him the minimum 3 match ban.
 

antohan

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I find the height of the horse quite hilarious really.

As far as I know we are the only South American country without an official religion, back in 1918 we decided that was a private matter and none of the state's business.

We allowed women to get divorced out of their own volition, with no cause to prove, before they could even vote in Europe.

We decriminalised buggery over 50 years before the "developed" Western countries.

But no, we are the backwards ones that have to pick their words.
 

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Apology accepted and a very eloquent post worthy of the user name.

I’m not sure I’ve said ‘this isn’t serious and let’s sweep it under the carpet’ per se. My point is that it irks me that it is THIS type of thing that tends to bring the big anti-racist guns out. And as a result of the display, everyone pats themselves on the back and says ‘look how big our anti-racism guns are’. And now satisfied that we actually have anti-racist guns, we can all move on with our lives and applaud ourselves for our progressiveness. Like really? This is where we take a stand? Interjecting on two mates language towards each other? So yes, forgive me for having a cynicism towards outrage at ‘trivial racism’.

I would not be surprised to see people in this very thread who have been quick to express abhorrence towards Bentancur’s words display a more indoctrinated position of racism in another thread, probably without even knowing, and obviously without any ‘racist language’. For example, a poster could easily continuously express anger at Pogba dancing or something, and then come in here and chastise me about the indifference to Bentancur’s language. Which is of course a snapshot, but a snapshot of football and society as a whole, and as someone who feels acutely aware of such, I’ve grown to care little about ‘stamping down on racism’ from within institutions that are not even close to addressing the fundamental racist cultures within them by saying ‘you can’t say monkey anymore, it’s racist’.

And yes, you could take my being proud to be Nigerian about identity, but identity alone is sufficient (and a complex paradigm anyway). However, I can honestly say that I would take no offence at all to you asking me ‘where am I from?’ or ‘what’s it like back home?’ etc. And my personal view is that people need to stop taking offence to such. The idea that you are not from the UK is not an offensive one! There are other places outside the UK. And it’s also common sense. I’m black, as far as I am concerned, English people are not black, anymore than Nigerian people are white. This is not America, and the American story is a sad one, yet one British society seems so desperate to emulate in this respect. African Americans are largely there as a product of slavery, and one of the biggest shames of that is that they have been stripped of their identities and ‘American’ is all they identify as. It is a positive thing that the UK is not the same, and there is no ethnic minority in this country really who doesn’t know where they come from, the mass migration was recent enough, and the blacks started coming here from the 60s onwards. I’m in my 30s and my friends are predominantly from the same background as me, and I can say not one of my friend’s parents have an English accent. With the Caribbeans, more likely their grandparents that don’t have an English accent - but none of them have been whitewashed to the extent where they only know themselves to be British. So for me, personally, I actually don’t like to be grouped as no different to a white British man just because I was born here, and never in my 30+ years have I asked another Black Brit what country they are from and they have told me ‘England’. They know exactly what I mean, and the answer to the question is usually the foundation of the connections that we form. So yes, I have no reason being asked where I’m from in England, just as I believe Harry Kane shouldn’t have a problem with being repeatedly asked where he’s from in Nigeria. I think I’ve rarely been asked out of malice, just curiosity, and I’ve always understood why I’ve been asked, and say ‘Nigeria’ with pride. I tend to find that, wherever the person is from, they then share something they know or are fond of about Nigeria and we bond from there.

The above is a micro example, but I do think the sensitivity to anyone being discussed in anything other than their ‘Britishness’ is harmful. Everyone who has a right to be here has a right to be here, but we should be celebrating and learning from the cultures within Britain rather than this constant effort, seemingly in the name of political correctness, to erase it all and say everyone is the same. Everyone IS the same in that we have the same rights as humans and citizens. But we are different in that we look different, having different types of hair, eat different food, have different accents and most importantly, often different stories. I’m a believer in preserving them. I speak to people like myself regularly and we share a sense of disappointment that our children will likely not know our language. Ultimately, the opposite of ‘other’ is the same - and we are far too cosmopolitan a country to identify by nothing beyond our passport.

And back to Bentancur, I can see why it’s considered offensive. And if I’m being totally honest, it’s just western ideals/conditioning IMO that makes people so objectionable to the statement (in my personal opinion). Koreans do resemble each other. A discerning eye can tell the difference between a Korean and a Japanese. Or they may hear someone is Japanese, and say ‘ah, I’d have thought you looked more Korean’. It’s just silly to get all Twitter about it and say ‘are you saying Koreans look the same’. The fact is, nobody has ever assumed that I am Korean! I simply do not look Korean. Many correctly assume I’m Nigerian. Others say I don’t look Nigerian. But not that I don’t look Nigerian in the way Harry Kane doesn’t look Nigerian (even though you can’t say that because technically, anyone can be born in Nigeria so what does a ‘Nigerian’ look like?!).

If we are ready to fight racism, I’ll be the first on the frontline, but I maintain my position that I have little outrage for things like this (personally). If any fight is centred around this sort of thing, then the fight has missed the point completely, and worryingly - seems unaware of the actual enemy it is even fighting! If we want to target these sort of comments as a (small) part of a wider class action suit then fair enough, chuck it in there, otherwise I’m unmoved.
An interesting and thoughtful post, but there's one problem at the heart of it, which slightly undermines your position: namely, your assumption that the category "English people" is synonymous with "white" or "looking like Harry Kane." (I've bolded the part where you say this, and also the part where you seem to realize its flaw.) This simply isn't true. Many groups have crossed the Channel into England over the millennia, and it's now known that the first modern Britons, arriving after the last Ice Age, had black skin and dark, curly hair. But even if you ignore this discovery, the reality is that people born in contemporary England can belong to any race, of course. Englishness isn't whiteness.

I didn't want to resurrect your exchange with @criticalanalysis, which was nuanced and respectful and largely concluded, and I tend to agree with parts of your arguments but not all. But I just couldn't let this small assertion go by without challenging it, as I believe it's one of the roots of modern racism in England, that so many white English people assume whiteness is the default when it comes to Englishness. It doesn't, and reality is far more complex than that.