Bayern in 12/13 are the best club side I think I've ever seen.
Best club side ever?
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Sorry, i should clarify. By 'pressured' i don't mean pressing, i mean a team figured out how to play against them. Often by being very physical or counter attacking. They did struggle to play against certain teams.
That backline was effective because they were able to fit the Barcelona way by keeping the ball, beating the press and moving it forward to the front players. None of them were great defenders, as evidenced on those few times teams did figure them out and they crumbled. If they couldn't play their very specific way they were very quickly exposed. That never happened with the Milan team, individually they were all (possible exception of Colombo) world class players in their own right.
Remember we are talking about all time best sides here. I'm not saying they were bad players.
That's the one. With the exception of Colombo every one of those players is in the conversation for best of all time in their position.Look at the personnel, 1988: Galli, Maldini, Baresi, Costacurta, Tassoti, Colombo, Donadoni, Ancelotti, Rijkaard, Gullit, Van Basten - there was no weaknesses there. Best defense ever, a very good midfield with Ancelotti, Rijkaard Donadoni and Gullit and one of the best centreforwards ever in MVB.
Lineups from 88 and 89 European Cup Finals:
1993 was a great lineup on paper but a couple of the key names like Van Basten were getting old.
Agreed. Sacchi's Milan was the best. 5-0 vs Real in a semifinal and 4-0 in the final was ridiculous.
Barcelona does for one?
Bayern 12/13
Agree, they were the perfect mix of possession, counter attack and defensive solidity.
If you look at the sides that troubled Pep's Barca in the champions league - Chelsea 2009, Inter 2010, Madrid 2011, even Arsenal 2011.. I'd have definitely have fancied Bayern 2013 to have a very good chance against them.
However you're not getting this award for 1 season realistically. In that case Pep's Barca has to be it.
Zidane's Real Madrid. Particularly in the second of the three years that they won it, they had an aura of invincibility that Barcelona never had.
More importantly, I think they would have beaten that Barca pretty cleanly, as that brand of football works only when you have vastly superior players.
More importantly, I think they would have beaten that Barca pretty cleanly, as that brand of football works only when you have vastly superior players.
But results matter, Brazil 82 is nowhere near this conversation precisely because of that.
A very difficult question to answer, best club side ever. If it was best clubvside per era that would be easier. Football has evolved alot over the last 100 years. Its evolved alot over the last 30 years. Lighter balls, more protection for creative players, removal of the pass back rule, fitness, professionalism, sports science etc.
Going by when i personally watched football, Milan of the late 80s/early 90s where some team. Revolutionary for the time with the pressing game that Saachi implemented as a first in italian football.
The medically doped up juventus team of the mid to late 90s where amazing to watch for the sheer energy and intensity of their play. This was when Juventus were the worlds best club side under lippi and were the benchmark Utd failed to beat on a number of occasions until 99.
The 2000s had a number of clubs that were at their peak, the original galacticos side from 2001-2004, the invincibles (well domestically of 04), milan from 03-07, Utd from 07-09, inter of 2010. Chelsea from 04-10.
In that same period we had three of the greatest ever international teams, brazil 02 and france 00 and spain 08-10.
2010 onwards had some great team, Sevilla 2014-16 who won three consecutive europa league titles. Just insane achievement, if it had been a 'big club' doing that we'd hear alot more about it.
Bayern 12/13 who destroyed everyone in thier path. Then obviously peps Barcelona and zidane/mourinhos madrid side.
Its impossible to pick, it really is.
Going by when i personally watched football, Milan of the late 80s/early 90s where some team. Revolutionary for the time with the pressing game that Saachi implemented as a first in italian football.
The medically doped up juventus team of the mid to late 90s where amazing to watch for the sheer energy and intensity of their play. This was when Juventus were the worlds best club side under lippi and were the benchmark Utd failed to beat on a number of occasions until 99.
The 2000s had a number of clubs that were at their peak, the original galacticos side from 2001-2004, the invincibles (well domestically of 04), milan from 03-07, Utd from 07-09, inter of 2010. Chelsea from 04-10.
In that same period we had three of the greatest ever international teams, brazil 02 and france 00 and spain 08-10.
2010 onwards had some great team, Sevilla 2014-16 who won three consecutive europa league titles. Just insane achievement, if it had been a 'big club' doing that we'd hear alot more about it.
Bayern 12/13 who destroyed everyone in thier path. Then obviously peps Barcelona and zidane/mourinhos madrid side.
Its impossible to pick, it really is.
This conversation is about club sides.
Alright thank you i see what you mean now, this makes more sense though i still disagree because i believe that we are asking the wrong questions here.
Yes it's true they had bad matchups against teams who played a low block and who could exploit the spaces that they left behind but that wasn't because of their defenders, it was a product of their playstyle. When you are such an attacking team always looking to outnumber your opponent on the attack, you are bounded to concede vast spaces that the opposing team can potentially exploit on the counter. But we should really add nuance to this statement, a bad matchup for the pep team was lowering their chances to win the game from 90% to 60%. For exemple the Real Madrid team who abused these kind of tactics to try to counter the pep team had a losing record against them (5 wins for Barca 4 Draws 2 wins for Real), so this "weakness" has to be put in perspective. Very few teams were able to succesfully play on the counter against Barcelona and those who could still didn't have a winning record against them, just less chance of losing. And when you put it this way, you realize how dominant they were, and that "weakness" was nothing crippling.
Also i would add that if this a comparison between Milan and Barça to determin which is the GOAT team, then we could point that Milan similiarly struggled during their CL campains. Sure we all remember them trashing Madrid 5-0 and the Steaua 4-0, we remember less their Ties against the red star where they would advance during the penalty shoutout ( Things could easily have gone the other way) or against Bayern in 1990 where they advance thanks to the away goal rule.
My point is not to trash that team but to show that a lot of factors come into play when you want to compare teams based on nitpicked games. Theres a hell lot of reasons where teams could struggle whether it be luck, injuries, or simply bad matchups.
If we were to say that the GOAT team is the one who never struggled to achieve european supremacy, then we shouldn't be having this discussion between Milan and Pep Team but between Barca 2015 and Real Madrid 2017, which i think, and i believe you will agree, is a ridiculous statement.
So in conclusion i don't think that we should give much weight to that argument as it doesn't really stand the test of scrutiny.
As for the supposed weak points in that Barça team i feel like when people are comparing Milan and Barça defenses, all they do is compare the names on paper, see that Milan has the more renowned players and therefore conclude that they must be the superior defense. And while this may seem like instinctively true, if we dive deeper we realize that there is much more nuance to it. Defense is not the doing of the backline solely, on a football pitch everyone defends it starts from the attackers pressing to the midfielders trying to get back the ball, and the defenders alongside the keeper acting as a last wall whenever the opponent succesfully reaches the final third. Very often a good midfield is as important if not more important than a good defensive backline to assure a good defensive stability.
For exemple the Milan team of 1994 conceded even less goals per game basis than even the best Sacchi team, despite the fact that an Old Tossatti-Costacurta-Maldini-Old Baresi backiline is objectively inferior to a prime Tossatti-prime Baresi-Costacurta-Maldini backline, and this is due to the fact that the 1994 team was playing with an ultra defensive midfield composed of Dessailly-Albertini, which severely diminished their creativity but made their defense a true fortress.
Now back to the comparison with Barça, that team may have an inferior defensive backline on paper when you compare it to Milan but that team defended whenever they lost the ball, they put an intense pressure on the opponent to regain it immediately and that was one of the main reasons that let them concede a little amount of goals during that period. When you look at their output you realize that both Milan and Barca gave up more or less the same amount of goals 0.68 Goals a game for Milan and 0.70 for Barça. And these numbers would need to be further contextualized as Laliga in 2010's was a more offensive league than the 80's serie A (2.7 Goals a game on average to 2.1 goals a game).
So all in all even if Milan's backline was superior, Barça's intense press and style of play was enough to assure a similar defensive output as that Milan team.
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Indeedo. It's crazy the amount of impact that side made though...I fell in love with the game because of Zico and co. So perhaps greatness isn't just measured by stats and trophies. Something fans of certain players can't grasp.
Never !!
United 2008 were the best ever.
Fair point
, but no one ever mentions Brazil 82 in the best national teams ever conversation cos they won feck all.I mean I see people mention Netherlands 74 in the best national teams ever conversation all the time and they also won feck all.Fair point
Ignore him.
They get a mention, but anyone seriously consider them the best national team ever?
Actually, Brazil 82’ are remembered much more than the team that actually won the World Cup that year. There’s been books written about them, compilation videos released about them.
But true greatness = winning + quality and impact of football style. Both are necessary to be the absolute best. Hence we go back to my Brazil 70 example, the greatest team of all time, challenged only by the 58/62 Brazil team.
Not necessarily, because plenty of small players succeeded in the past. I’m just saying that a whole team of them might be an issue
It is, but I think he mentioned Brazil ‘82 because I compared Brazil ‘70 and Germany ‘74 to illustrate my point about how a team that wins playing great football is often thought of as better than a team that just wins, even though the result is essentially the same.
But they do all the time. And the Dutch in 74 and the Hungarians in the 50s. Any proper list of the greatest international teams of all time will include these teams. Because in football, how you play matters and that has always been the case.Fair point
I feel like some arguments used in this thread are kinda weak when it comes to determin the best side ever.
A lot of people are subject to winning bias, where one reevaluates the value of team simply on the fact that they won or not. Especially in competions like the champions league or the world cup where a lot of random factors come into account, such as luck, matchups, penalty shoutouts...
Real Madrid in 2017 is often thrown around in this thread but it might not even be the best Madrid side of the decade. Sure they had a dominant CL run, but as stated above those are often the product of contingency.
Their league record was much less impressive, their defense was very porous, they lost a must win game to an average barca side, and them winning the league had more to do with Barça's awful first half of the season than a real dominance that one could expect from a GOAT team contender.
If that Barça team doesn't concede 4 against Vigo (which was very unlikely considering they had only 1.53 xG), they go to win the league and the narrative is flipped.
While the 2012 Madrid team finished with a record of 100 point, won their must win game in the Nou camp against a GOAT tier team, they were solid defensively and absolute fire on offense, they ran out of luck against a good Bayern team and lost during the shoutouts. If you look at their overall performance throughout the season the 2012 team was more consistently good, but as they failed short during the penalty shoutouts (which again could go eitherway) they are seen as a lesser team.
When it comes to determin the best side ever i think the most pertinent question that we have to ask ourselve is "if we reran the simulations a hundred times, which team would end up with the most trophies ?"
A lot of people are subject to winning bias, where one reevaluates the value of team simply on the fact that they won or not. Especially in competions like the champions league or the world cup where a lot of random factors come into account, such as luck, matchups, penalty shoutouts...
Real Madrid in 2017 is often thrown around in this thread but it might not even be the best Madrid side of the decade. Sure they had a dominant CL run, but as stated above those are often the product of contingency.
Their league record was much less impressive, their defense was very porous, they lost a must win game to an average barca side, and them winning the league had more to do with Barça's awful first half of the season than a real dominance that one could expect from a GOAT team contender.
If that Barça team doesn't concede 4 against Vigo (which was very unlikely considering they had only 1.53 xG), they go to win the league and the narrative is flipped.
While the 2012 Madrid team finished with a record of 100 point, won their must win game in the Nou camp against a GOAT tier team, they were solid defensively and absolute fire on offense, they ran out of luck against a good Bayern team and lost during the shoutouts. If you look at their overall performance throughout the season the 2012 team was more consistently good, but as they failed short during the penalty shoutouts (which again could go eitherway) they are seen as a lesser team.
When it comes to determin the best side ever i think the most pertinent question that we have to ask ourselve is "if we reran the simulations a hundred times, which team would end up with the most trophies ?"
I feel Mourinho's Madrid team to end the Pep Barca team is being forgotten by many. That was a monster team, but not winning the CL/bottling it let it down. But that squad had everything
So did their form the following season.
As winners they would have been eligible, that is what I meant.
Still not sure what you mean, forgive me. You can’t win it if you’re not able to enter
Can't really talk about teams I didn't see, but for the last 20 years Pep's Barca is by quite some distance the best side I've seen. The level they played towards the latter part of the 2011 Champions League campaign is something else, really. They made us look like a pub team essentially.
I doubt a lot of people have them down as the best but from what I've seen they're mentioned quite frequently in those discussions. It's usually in the context of the best team that never won the WC, but just like Holland 74 they are still considered as one of the best national teams ever despite not winning.Fair point
It was a great side don’t get me wrong but 70’s was miles better. If they could have stayed together though it was another story. But that is the sadness of modern football from a Dutch perspective.
Barca 2008- 16?
any time they got the ball around the oppo box
any time they got the ball around the oppo box
Don't know about ever, but in recent times it's Enrique's Barcelona, Zidane's Madrid, and 2008 Utd.
3 teams which had no antidote. At their peak, they were simply inevitable. Special mention to Heynckes' Bayern and Klopp's Liverpool.
3 teams which had no antidote. At their peak, they were simply inevitable. Special mention to Heynckes' Bayern and Klopp's Liverpool.
I can’t see how you can say that when they only won La Liga once during that period. And if I remember correctly they had some very dodgy refereeing decisions in the Champions League knock out games, particularly against Bayern.
I’d probably say Bayern’s team in 2012/13. They steam rolled every team in the Champions League. I also thought their style of play was some of the best football I’ve seen.
Agree with @harms' ranking; all things considered it's hard to argue against peak Milan for the title of the “best club side ever”.
#4: Di Stéfano's Madrid.
#5: Pérez and Pelé's Santos — which trounced some of the greatest European teams of the time (including all-time-great ones like Benfica and Internazionale), and won the quadruple of Copa Libertadores + Paulistão + Taça Brasil + Intercontinental Cup in 1962. Like the aforementioned Madrid team, they were predicated on their crown jewel and the tactical framework wasn't as detail-oriented as modern/post-modern teams or as revolutionary as South American predecessors like La Máquina, but the zenith of the long-running Os Santásticos project is definitely worthy of a mention.
- Unlike some other candidates (a notable example being the defense of peak Barcelona), they were packed with individual quality in every segment: van Basten + Gullit is as good as it gets when we think of forward duos, Rijkaard ran rampant in midfield, and of course Baresi + Maldini battened down the hatches in inimitable fashion. No other team boasts such a dizzying concentration of greatest-of-all-time talent for their respective positions/roles.
- In addition to the incredible personnel quality, they were a consummate model of precise tactics and noteworthy chemistry (which enabled them to perform at an optimal level and gives them an edge over more accomplished teams like Di Stéfano's all-conquering Madrid).
- While Michels' Ajax and Guardiola's Barcelona had a significant influence on football as a whole, Sacchi's Milan were revolutionary in its own way — as their brand of high defensive line, never more than 25 metres from front to back, football in a cohesive 4—4—2 base changed the sport forever — while bringing Italian calcio, in particular, out of its Catenaccio / Zona Mista inspired background. Even contemporary greats swear by a lot of those principles, which speaks volumes about the enduring legacy of that team:
“Sacchi completely changed how we think about football,” said Klopp. “Because of him we had to judge the size of the pitch in a new way. I am sure you remember playing with man-marking tactics where you pretty much followed the opponent you were marking to the toilet.
“The pitch always felt incredibly big. Nobody played a high line because many teams played the libero.” Klopp explained that Sacchi’s ability to organise a team and produce the best from his players as a collective, as opposed to relying on flashes of individual brilliance to win watches, was revolutionary.
“Before him [Sacchi] I was told who to mark and that was it. Too often the team with the better individuals won the game because it was all one-versus-one challenges all over the pitch, so if the other player was better than you, how could you win? Sacchi’s organisation made it completely different.
https://punditarena.com/football/matt-gault/jurgen-klopp-arrigo-sacchi-influence/
“The pitch always felt incredibly big. Nobody played a high line because many teams played the libero.” Klopp explained that Sacchi’s ability to organise a team and produce the best from his players as a collective, as opposed to relying on flashes of individual brilliance to win watches, was revolutionary.
“Before him [Sacchi] I was told who to mark and that was it. Too often the team with the better individuals won the game because it was all one-versus-one challenges all over the pitch, so if the other player was better than you, how could you win? Sacchi’s organisation made it completely different.
https://punditarena.com/football/matt-gault/jurgen-klopp-arrigo-sacchi-influence/
- Bonus points for excelling in the most competitive domestic era of them all — Napoli had the “best player in the world” Maradona in addition to Careca, Alemão, Carnivale and Ferrara, Internazionale had Matthäus, Brehme, Klinsmann, Bergomi, Serena; even mid-table teams like Fiorentina had the likes of Baggio and were pretty good in that period of Serie A, and Milan weren't just exploiting hapless opponents on a week-to-week basis. A lot of other super-teams didn't face such rigorous opposition — and the spell from 1990 to 1991 is the perhaps the best representation of this as Serie A dominated all European cup competitions with Milan winning their second straight European Cup, Internazionale winning the UEFA Cup and Sampdoria (who later reached the European Cup final) winning the Cup Winners' Cup.
#4: Di Stéfano's Madrid.
#5: Pérez and Pelé's Santos — which trounced some of the greatest European teams of the time (including all-time-great ones like Benfica and Internazionale), and won the quadruple of Copa Libertadores + Paulistão + Taça Brasil + Intercontinental Cup in 1962. Like the aforementioned Madrid team, they were predicated on their crown jewel and the tactical framework wasn't as detail-oriented as modern/post-modern teams or as revolutionary as South American predecessors like La Máquina, but the zenith of the long-running Os Santásticos project is definitely worthy of a mention.
They are (somewhat) forgotten because they didn't end anything. Barcelona matched their 100 points in the league just the following season.
They also won few matches against top opposition. Even at their best (the 100 pt season) they lost most matches against Barcelona, and when they faced a tough team in the CL, Bayern, they couldn't go through either.
Yep. We played barcelona 6 times that season: 1W 2D 3L
Bayern absolutely battered us, we lost in the shootouts only because they fecked up, they were clearly a level above
The 13/14 and 16/17 sides are by far the best madrid sides of the last...heh. Pretty much since Di Stefano really. With only special mention to the 14/15 one that could have very well made this thread pointless if not for injuries
Great post, can’t really disagree wholly with anything you’ve said. Milan may very well be number one, because of their all round strength. It’s also true about the power of the Italian league at that time.
The only thing I would say slightly contrary is that if we go by the adage of ‘a team is only as good as it’s best player’, (which is not really true, but just for argument’s sake) then you could argue that all the other teams you’ve mentioned had a genius or leader that was superior to anything Milan could muster.
Santos had Pele, Barca had Messi, Madrid had DiStefano AND Puskas, Ajax had Cruyff. If you make a list of the top 10 players of all time, these guys will all feature. I don’t think that you can say the same about any Milan player. Van Basten might crack the top 20, but it’s a debate.
I think, by way of comparison, you are under playing pep's Barcelona here. They had the best midfield of all time by some margin and then stacked arguably the best player of all time on top of that.
Van Basten and Gullit were amazing, but I'd still have Messi+another ahead of them.
Moreover, despite being stacked with world class players, that Barcelona team achieved a unique synergy in their passing game that made the team more than the sum of its parts. There has never been a team in history that simply did not allow the other team to play the way they did and who passed their way through press and deep banks alike with such effortlessness.
The best that Milan team could hope for against such a side is to do what mourinho's inter did and hope to snag it on the counter. And I still believe that if you put these two against each other 10 times, pep's barca comes out victorious.