Best way to play with 10 men?

[VanDeBank]

4-4-1 is the textbook solution as the defending team. You need one guy up top to be some sort of threat.

As the team with 11, the simplest way to play is one on one across the pitch, then you'll always have a man extra at the back.

 

[Sparky_Hughes]

Can't be afraid to get stuck in and do the dirty work.

Damn right, its all about the team no the individual. Also dont explode of the gate, pace yourself, its a long slog

 

[Drainy]

I remember Arsenal under Wenger used to be great at managing games while down to 10 men.

If I'm remembering correctly they went to 4-4-1 with natural wide players who could get up and down the wings.

 

[Dave Smith]

Chelsea against Pool is different as they’re playing one of the best attacking football teams in Europe.

I kind of get what Ole was going for even I don’t agree but the subs were so weird. If he wanted to shut up shop, take off Ronnie for Martial or Greenwood so there’s at least some threat in behind them and don’t take off VdB, you surely want CMs on the pitch. Sancho off for Varane and you have:

———————— Greenwood ————————
—————— Pogba — Fred — VdB —————
Shaw————————————————— Dalot
———— Maguire - Varane - Lindelof ————

It’s still 10 v 10 when you think about it if we used DDG as a sweeper keeper, there’s no reason we couldn’t have kept possession better and not sat so deep for so long.

My main point was that the team should be drilled and know what to do when such a situation arises. For the Dippers they had to go defensive because of their fire power, but I imagine if they were playing someone weaker that wouldn't be how they played.

My principal point is that if you go down to 10 men, the most important thing is that the players know what to do tactically and also know the correct system to implement.

 

[André Dominguez]

I would rater play a 4x2x3x0: more presence in the miedfield, the wingers and att midf would still give us some solutions and we would also had more cover full width.
Than in the last minutes put an extra defender because the opponents will do long balls.

 

[The Boy]

A clear formation and system where everyone knows what they're doing and know how to adjust if they do go down to 10 men. Essentially see Chelsea against the Dippers.

The whole see Chelsea against Liverpool argument suggests that Chelsea are an amazing team that will do that whenever they go down to 10 men, so go back the end of last season and see Chelsea vs West Brom in April. Teams have good days and bad days, against Liverpool, Chelsea had a good day against West Brom, like you against Young Boys they had a bit of a mare.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

My main point was that the team should be drilled and know what to do when such a situation arises. For the Dippers they had to go defensive because of their fire power, but I imagine if they were playing someone weaker that wouldn't be how they played.

My principal point is that if you go down to 10 men, the most important thing is that the players know what to do tactically and also know the correct system to implement.

Well we all saw how that worked out for them…

 

[Oranges038]

Very different when you’re winning though. We were 1-0 up and cruising. The examples of great 10 men performances often happen when there’s a nothing to lose attitude.

Of course they are. Because nobody gives a shit when ten men get beat. It's expected.

Last night was a great example of how not to do it, as a coach and as players on the pitch. Ole got his subs all wrong and the players on the pitch hadn't a fcking clue what to do, they lost their heads and went into hiding.

It was a moment for leaders to standup and take control, a defence that has cost over 200m and not one of them could get it organized. Organisation should start at the keeper and work it's way out from there. Instead you had just a group of players standing round near the box with no shape at all. Maguire chasing out players at left back and Lindelof chasing down players at right back. Midfield was non existent. It was just a total mess.

 

[Boavista]

It depends on who you are playing.

From the perspective of a Bayern supporter:
Bayern doesn’t change their approach (dominate possession, press coordinated) when being a man down against teams that are weaker than them. And that covers 95% of their opponents.

You would normally probably see the 10 being taken out of their 4-2-3-1. That would normally be Müller. Or shift him to the wing to keep him as the leader of their press.

Neuer
Pavard - Upamecano - Hernandez - Davies
Kimmich - Goretzka
Gnabry - Lewandowski - Sané

Edit: I didn’t watch United‘s game against Bern. However, had Bayern been up 1-0 against them when losing a player, Bayern would have continued to attack and would have went for the 2-0.

Maybe not the best example because Bayern ended up losing that match in the end, but I remember a group stage match under Guardiola against City. Ended 3-2 for City but Bayern had already secured the top spot at the time I think.

Even though Bayern went down to 10 in the first half and City took the lead from the resulting penalty, Bayern almost toyed with that City side. Completely dominated possession as if they were the ones with an extra man. Obviously not every team can do that and play possession football like a Guardiola side, but in my opinion that was a really impressive display for a team with a player sent off.

 

[stefan92]

My main point was that the team should be drilled and know what to do when such a situation arises. For the Dippers they had to go defensive because of their fire power, but I imagine if they were playing someone weaker that wouldn't be how they played.

My principal point is that if you go down to 10 men, the most important thing is that the players know what to do tactically and also know the correct system to implement.

And to achieve this you change as little as possible compared to your usual setup, so still everyone knows what to do, just change were the formation is the most volatile anyway - in attack.

That is why most four at the back systems become a 441 or 423 if you think more attacking.

Than you can tweak details like playing more energetic or faster players to better cover for the holes that will occur or replace a risk taking player with someone who has a calming influence, but that should be it. Massive changes will only create insecurity and therefore lead to errors.

 

[Lynty]

Damn right, its all about the team no the individual. Also dont explode of the gate, pace yourself, its a long slog

and when you go down, you stay down. Use up as much time as possible until the referee blows.

 

[TwoSheds]

You sub a winger and have one of the strikers drop into midfield when defending. Basically what we tried first half. Problem was we started Lindelof instead of our best CB. We also should have subbed Pogba because he's not a reliable defender nor reliable at keeping possession but I understand why we didn't given his long balls would have been one of our main offensive threats.

 

[stefan92]

The whole see Chelsea against Liverpool argument suggests that Chelsea are an amazing team that will do that whenever they go down to 10 men, so go back the end of last season and see Chelsea vs West Brom in April. Teams have good days and bad days, against Liverpool, Chelsea had a good day against West Brom, like you against Young Boys they had a bit of a mare.

Will be interesting to see what happens the next time Chelsea are down to ten. Might well be that they learned their lesson after Weat Brom and will perform much more like against Liverpool.

 

[Gio]

The 4-4-2 structure that many elite sides defend with off the ball is typically to accommodate lazy attackers, where they're basically already playing with 10 men off the ball. So same principle applies with a 4-4-1 and it's the easiest shape to change into mid-game. I don't think you can carry many players who won't run off the ball as the opposition overloads will eventually kill you. Ideally your centre-forward knows how to play as a single striker for a team that has less of the ball - someone who can press, win fouls, hold it in, stretch the play. That makes a huge difference. Keeping the ball is key and the best way to achieve that with 10 men is a compact shape to allow your team to overload in smaller areas - i.e. by making the pitch smaller. In any 11v10, you'd also want to afford their technically weakest player the most time on the ball, to ensure the opposition's build-up is as clunky as possible.

All of this would be worked on in training as it's a pretty standard scenario to model on the training ground.

 

[largelyworried]

Chelsea did basically the vintage 10 men performance against Liverpool the other day. Liverpool came out second half all guns firing and Chelsea weathered the initial storm with a backs to the wall job. But then they slowed the game down so that after 10 more minutes Liverpool & the crowd quietened. When they got the ball back them kept it away from Liverpool through neat passing in midfield so Liverpool had to work hard to get possession. They put together enough attacks to make sure that Liverpool couldn't simply commit all their players to attack, they had to worry about defending as well. They did everything they could to stop Liverpool building up a head of steam. They finished the game pretty comfortably.

Last night was a study in what not to do with 10 men. Switched to a line up that gave us little hope of retaining possession & little chance to counter attack. Offered no threat, giving their defenders all the time they wanted to start attacks. Sat deeper and deeper so we gave our defence no breaks and made it easier for them to retrieve the ball and ramp up the pressure. Let the team and the crowd get more and more pumped up.

 

[The Boy]

Will be interesting to see what happens the next time Chelsea are down to ten. Might well be that they learned their lesson after Weat Brom and will perform much more like against Liverpool.

Maybe, maybe not. Didn’t you beat City a couple of years ago in a cup game despite having Matic sent off?

 

[Annihilate Now!]

Could you elaborate on how you have lined up yesterday after that red? Who's playing on the wings and who in CM? I assume Ronaldo is up top

I'd have immediately put Dalot on for Bruno or Pogba, So have one of them and the left and Sancho on the right.

Half time/just after I'd take off Ronaldo for Greenwood (for mobility/moving into channels)... then later bring in Lingard for Pogs/Bruno, Matic for VdB and Marital for Sancho. Something like that anyway.

We'd probably have lost 4-1.

 

[2 man midfield]

4-4-1 with an attacker subbed off to cover whatever hole has been left. Stay solid but maintain a threat on the break. We were in control of that game, and although the crowd got up after the red, I still think we could’ve maintained control with the right tactics. Surrendering like that and going with a back 5 was criminal in my view.

I understand the Sancho for Dalot sub. Totally sensible. The others though made no sense. We needed to keep Ronaldo on or at least maintain the threat of pace on the break. Once we sat back and invited pressure you knew they’d score and we didn’t even try and enter their half. Young Boys knew it as well. ‘Why worry about pushing up? It’s not like they have Ronaldo running in behind. In fact they’ve subbed off all their attackers.’ Whenever we invite pressure, we concede. We saw it infinite times under Jose. It was so daft.

I’m never quick to criticise Ole when it comes to tactics, because who even knows what he’s telling the players. I’m just some guy on his phone, but in a way that’s the issue. If it’s so blindingly obvious that even I can see it...

 

[Lynty]

Lets be honest, we could have done with Dan James last night

 

[Annihilate Now!]

Maybe, maybe not. Didn’t you beat City a couple of years ago in a cup game despite having Matic sent off?

He got sent off mid way through the second half and we were already winning (but losing the overal tie so it didn't matter so much to City that we were winning the game)

 

[Yagami]

The best performance I've seen from us after a red card was away to City in LvG's first season.

The two best performances I've seen in general after a team has had a man sent off were Bayern away to City and PSG away to Chelsea.

The one thing they had in common was they kept possession. They had the mentality of, yes, we have a man less than them, but it's not the end of the world. We can still play football. Our mentality yesterday was "it's over".

That PSG performance especially was the best performance from a 10 man team I've ever seen, and it was mainly because of the press resistance from Verratti and Pastore. That's why those players are soooo good, and why I've been dying to see us sign at least one press resistant midfielder.

 

[Offside]

Of course they are. Because nobody gives a shit when ten men get beat. It's expected.

Last night was a great example of how not to do it, as a coach and as players on the pitch. Ole got his subs all wrong and the players on the pitch hadn't a fcking clue what to do, they lost their heads and went into hiding.

It was a moment for leaders to standup and take control, a defence that has cost over 200m and not one of them could get it organized. Organisation should start at the keeper and work it's way out from there. Instead you had just a group of players standing round near the box with no shape at all. Maguire chasing out players at left back and Lindelof chasing down players at right back. Midfield was non existent. It was just a total mess.

Honestly we defended well at times. Both their goals were lucky. The issue was the complete lack of ball retention, but their energy was also insane.

The one thing I will say is, although we could easily have won 1-0 as I’m saying above, we got 0 points by sitting back and holding onto the lead. But imagine if we’d have just carried on attacking and then got done 3-2 or something? The knives would be out for Ole too.

We just have to accept that the red card fecked us when we were in a great position, and understand why we did what we did. As I say, if it wasn’t for an inexplicable error at the end from an individual we’d be content with the result and praising the defenders.

 

[BusbyMalone]

Just wondering (no particular reason!) what is the best way to set up after having a man sent off?

Obviously a lot will depend on how you start the game and the score when someone is sent off. So let’s assume (again, no particular reason!) you start with four at the back, generally dominate possession and are a goal up.

In my opinion, if you go into the game thinking your back four can keep the opposition out then have the courage of your convictions. Leave the back four as a back four.

I also think you don’t feck with minefield. Keep the shape and numbers exactly the same. If it’s good enough to win midfield when you have XI then it becomes even more important to keep a grip on midfield when you’re a man down.

So my conclusion is that the immediate response to getting a player sent off is to tweak things so that the only area you’re a man short is in the attacking third.

Other opinions are available, obviously. Especially if you have examples of other teams/managers successfully taking a different approach.

Go!

Well, speaking about the game last night specifically, I'm not a fan of going to a back 5. Of course it's going to be hard anyway, and to be fair to Young Boys they played the situation really well, but we immediately relinquished any sort of possession we may have had when we changed to a back 5. You just put yourself under extreme pressure, and no matter who you're playing against, if they're semi-competent they're going to create a few chances in that situation. Mistakes are also more likely to happen, as we saw quite spectacularly.

I don't mind bringing Varane on, because his experience is obviously invaluable, but not at the expense of a midfielder. I just feel like Ole made a bad situation much worse.

 

[Lebo]

I don’t think we have the personnel for it. You need midfielders who hardly lose the ball, you need wingers/forwards who can run with the ball or be able to hold up the ball and be willing to defend when without the ball. Yesterday our best bet keeping VDB and Sancho for their ability to keep and run with the ball respectively.

Dalot. Maguire. Lindeof. Shaw

Fred. VDB. Pogba

Ronaldo. Martial/Sancho(ideally Rashford)

We had too many players who are incapable of closing attackers down and keeping the ball.

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

The whole see Chelsea against Liverpool argument suggests that Chelsea are an amazing team that will do that whenever they go down to 10 men, so go back the end of last season and see Chelsea vs West Brom in April. Teams have good days and bad days, against Liverpool, Chelsea had a good day against West Brom, like you against Young Boys they had a bit of a mare.

Will be interesting to see what happens the next time Chelsea are down to ten. Might well be that they learned their lesson after Weat Brom and will perform much more like against Liverpool.

Couple mitigating factors from that WBA game - we were down to a single sub because Pulisic went off hurt as well, and given how tight the race for 4th was at that point we were still going all-out attack even with 10 to try to claw back a point if at all possible. Certainly it wasn't ideal from a single game in terms of approach, but given the broader picture I had no issue with throwing caution to the wind in the second half down 2-1.

 

[Redlyn]

The year is 2009, we came from behind to be winning away at spurs 2-1. Scholes gets sent off. Swap a striker for a midfielder.
Remained in control and went on to score another to seal it 3-1.
I guess "its spurs" has something to do with it but we stayed in control despite a man down.

My frustration is how consistently hapless we are now when a man gets sent off. A man down is automatically dropped points, insane amount of pressure like we are relegation battling team. If its a good team, its a hammering.
The root cause is how we play with 11 (low possession play, hit on the counter) that does not translate well to 10 men because we cant keep them them stretched and honest up front, and cant play controlled possession in the middle.

 

[RedDevilCanuck]

Put on Dan James.

 

[André Dominguez]

The year is 2009, we came from behind to be winning away at spurs 2-1. Scholes gets sent off. Swap a striker for a midfielder.
Remained in control and went on to score another to seal it 3-1.
I guess "its spurs" has something to do with it but we stayed in control despite a man down.

My frustration is how consistently hapless we are now when a man gets sent off. A man down is automatically dropped points, insane amount of pressure like we are relegation battling team. If its a good team, its a hammering.
The root cause is how we play with 11 (low possession play, hit on the counter) that does not translate well to 10 men because we cant keep them them stretched and honest up front, and cant play controlled possession in the middle.

I share your feelings about our playing style. And people who complain about being one down against an opponent that would be facing relegation if they competed on the Premier League, one just need to see Arrigo Sacchi's principles that explains how to approach numerical disadvantadges, and this was like more than 30 years ago and is still valid (Pep himself was highly influenced by Sacchi's zonal marking principles)

 

[Borys]

A clear formation and system where everyone knows what they're doing and know how to adjust if they do go down to 10 men. Essentially see Chelsea against the Dippers.

Exactly. If you've worked on back 5, go with back 5. If you have a working midfield, stay with it and sacrifice a forward. But it seems our problem will be we have too many untouchable forwards so there we have it.

 

[11101]

Stay as you are but move to one focal attacking point and make sure that person is somebody who can keep the ball high up the pitch when it gets to them, in order to give the rest of the team a rest.

Basically the opposite of what Ole did last night.

 

[abkmufc92]

Last night we should have went 4-4-1

De Gea
Dalot Lindelof Maguire Shaw
Bruno Van de Beek Fred Pogba
Ronaldo

Bringing of Van de Beek for Varane made no sense.

 

[Nickelodeon]

If you're Ole, these are the steps:

1. You concede that your team can't score or even attack despite how good your forwards are or how shite the opposition is
2. You throw as many defenders as possible because the only way of winning is not conceding and the only way of not conceding is more and more defenders
3. You show that you're not some PE teacher who's afraid to sub off the GOAT. Even though you could've done that when you were leading rather than when you need a goal. Sub out the other Portuguese guy as well because why the feck not?!
4. You have an option of throwing the kid who can carry the ball and has 3 goals in 4 games. Or there's this French guy who was Mbappe's replacement for France. But you remind yourself that you don't care about nonsense like stats or common sense, you want the smile on a young lad's face. On comes Jesse to bring the glory.
5. Since there are no more defenders left, throw on the next best thing so you can have 5 defenders, 2 defensive midfielders, 1 central midfielder and 1 Jesse
6. Just when you the time is getting over, you ask yourself, can I make one final change to be known as the greatest tactician ever. You point to the any random sub, throw him on for any random outfielder.
7. You have already made miracles happen in the CL. Will it be a night like Paris where your tactical brilliance of throwing a couple of reserves and a third choice RB win you the game? Oh no, luck has swung the other way.
8. It's okay. You tell yourself that you fought for a hard earned point against a very tough contender. All that matters now is that you bring out a motivational quote for your next press conference.

 

[VidaRed]

Ole should have gone 4-4-1
------------------------DDG------------------------
--Dalot---Varane---Maguire---Shaw--
--Mason----Matic----Fred----Sancho--
---------------------Ronaldo---------------------

 

[VidaRed]

Lets be honest, we could have done with Dan James last night

Lingard would have never come on if james was around.

 

[bosnian_red]

Depends on opponent. Get more energy in midfield but definitely plug any midfield or defensive gaps. Taking Sancho off for Dalot was the right move. But the tactics were wrong. We went defensive and pure counter to Ronaldo instead of trying to dominate the ball and play calmly. We spend so many games ignoring the right wing anyway, still try to play football, just be a bit more cautious with not overcommitting.

Most importantly you have to make sure your defence is balanced and midfield is balanced and set. The attack, at a club like United playing Young boys, you can afford to be a man light and still have an impact. The performance from us was embarrassing.

 

[MattofManchester]

Not getting into the debate about last night, but I remember when we lost a man under Sir Alex, we'd look to drop in an extra midfielder to help keep control of the game.
Unless it was one of our CBs sent off. Then all went to hell.

 

[steffyr2]

If you're Ole, these are the steps:

1. You concede that your team can't score or even attack despite how good your forwards are or how shite the opposition is
2. You throw as many defenders as possible because the only way of winning is not conceding and the only way of not conceding is more and more defenders
3. You show that you're not some PE teacher who's afraid to sub off the GOAT. Even though you could've done that when you were leading rather than when you need a goal. Sub out the other Portuguese guy as well because why the feck not?!
4. You have an option of throwing the kid who can carry the ball and has 3 goals in 4 games. Or there's this French guy who was Mbappe's replacement for France. But you remind yourself that you don't care about nonsense like stats or common sense, you want the smile on a young lad's face. On comes Jesse to bring the glory.
5. Since there are no more defenders left, throw on the next best thing so you can have 5 defenders, 2 defensive midfielders, 1 central midfielder and 1 Jesse
6. Just when you the time is getting over, you ask yourself, can I make one final change to be known as the greatest tactician ever. You point to the any random sub, throw him on for any random outfielder.
7. You have already made miracles happen in the CL. Will it be a night like Paris where your tactical brilliance of throwing a couple of reserves and a third choice RB win you the game? Oh no, luck has swung the other way.
8. It's okay. You tell yourself that you fought for a hard earned point against a very tough contender. All that matters now is that you bring out a motivational quote for your next press conference.

Pretty much think you've got it covered.

Reading the match thread yesterday sounded like a Star Trek episode where the universe kept contracting, except it was the amount of the pitch that Utd felt comfortable playing on. And that area kept getting smaller and smaller as time went on......

Re #3 -- Why did Bruno have to come off? That's the puzzling thing to me. Did Ole just decide to concede the game at that point? Bruno is one of the best players on the team. He's not 36 years old, like Ronaldo. He can pass. He can score. He probably won't pass to the other team at an inopportune time.

(The other puzzling thing is why Pogba doesn't do more. That's another thread, I suppose.)

 

[v0latile]

just looks at chelsea vs liverpool weeks ago.. .

 

[Irwin99]

Not sure I can say that there's a definitive one size fits all approach for this scenario but just defending isn't the best response as is it only invites pressure. I remember City going 3-0 down against us in the FA cup (2012 I think) with ten men and they clawed it back to 3-2 and we were very lucky they didn't snatch a draw at the end. I vaguely remember that Mancini made a tactical change that absolutely turned the game around in the second half. I was really angry we didn't put them to the sword in revenge for the 6-1 loss.

I thought we played really well against Real Madrid after the Nani sending off in 2013.

 

[Mainoldo]

Have a competent manager.