Best way to play with 10 men?

arnie_ni

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It’s interesting to me that so many people are focussing on the Lingard, Fred, Martial substitutions (which I agree were all debatable) but there’s not been much discussion about switching to five at the back. That was what really killed us IMO. Basically turned the game into attack vs defence. Which will almost always fail if you need to keep a clean sheet for an hour.
I agree. Matic should have been on at half time, not varane. We needed to win the battle in midfield.

At the very least, If he brings varane on he has to tell Shaw and dalot to push further up so that we are playing 3 4 1 1 almost.

The back 5 with that midfield was suicide.
 

stevoc

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Yeah I knew by the reaction the ref would get a red out. Even if he hadn’t seen the challenge
Under the new rules it was a red but that guy was rolling about and/or screaming after every challenge on him. From his reaction you'd think he'd been seriously injured yet up and jogging about as soon as the red was shown.
 

EtH

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We should’ve just come out for the second half unchanged and assessed from there. We were comfortable enough with DvB and Fred in midfield to finish the first half after the sending off.

It was indeed bringing that third CB on which damned us. And I really feel that if it would’ve been Lindelof sat on the bench instead of Varane that change doesn’t happen. Not then anyway.

But either way one of Ronaldo, Pogba or Bruno has to come off in that situation no matter who comes on at the half. Otherwise you are in effect conceding the midfield battle.

Ideally Varane comes on for Sancho who was having a poor match with Lindelof sliding over to RB and we play 4311 with Bruno behind Ronaldo. Then Greenwood for Ronaldo soon enough and Matic for Pogba or Bruno. If it’s the latter Pogba is then pushed up into #10.

We ended up playing 522 basically after the half which is pretty much inviting pressure and then panicking even further because we were indeed under immense pressure by changing to 531 with an industrious runner upfront. And then the completely contradictory Fred substitution late on.

It was panic stations. Let’s be honest.
 

meamth

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Pogba's lack of effort became very evident once we went down to 10, you need energy and players willing to press.

Although it turned sour in the end I didn't think bringing Lingard on was a bad call. He does usually put in a shift.

How the three wisemen ever came to the decision to bring on Martial for Fred truly baffles me.
Probably thinking we can get that one odd chance to score and win the game. It was 1-1, pretty balsy but turned out bad.
 

meamth

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We should’ve just come out for the second half unchanged and assessed from there. We were comfortable enough with DvB and Fred in midfield to finish the first half after the sending off.

It was indeed bringing that third CB on which damned us. And I really feel that if it would’ve been Lindelof sat on the bench instead of Varane that change doesn’t happen. Not then anyway.

But either way one of Ronaldo, Pogba or Bruno has to come off in that situation no matter who comes on at the half. Otherwise you are in effect conceding the midfield battle.

Ideally Varane comes on for Sancho who was having a poor match with Lindelof sliding over to RB and we play 4311 with Bruno behind Ronaldo. Then Greenwood for Ronaldo soon enough and Matic for Pogba or Bruno. If it’s the latter Pogba is then pushed up into #10.

We ended up playing 522 basically after the half which is pretty much inviting pressure and then panicking even further because we were indeed under immense pressure by changing to 531 with an industrious runner upfront. And then the completely contradictory Fred substitution late on.

It was panic stations. Let’s be honest.
Probably thinking with Varane Maguire and Lindelof they can keep the ball as they are ball playing CBs.

Absorbing pressure and frustrating opponent to throw more bodies upfront so that there are space to run at the back of their defences, and using Pogba to launch those balls from deep.

Shit like that can happen, but it doesn't work yesterday and coaching team should admit their fault.

I think they do admit it later on post match meetings. Of course they would.
 

berbatrick

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if the choice is to sit and defend and not leave the defensive third, let alone the half

 

Rajiztar

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I personally think two things should be enabled when you have options from bench.

Press resistant central midfielder and pacy tricky wide men. Generally opponents with more men try to attack and push up.

So need to defend in numbers and always should have the outlet to attack wide areas of both sides.

When in possession try to pass the ball to press resistant midfielder who can break the initial press and first defence of opposition then generally need to deal with two centre backs.

Now outlet of two wideman come into play. Midfielder have the option of either sides. Attack the slow center back side and another side wideman also run to space to stretch the defenders.
 

Himannv

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Oles's reaction to the 10 men was replacing Sancho with Dalot was perfect, the rest was a shambles.
Yeah, this was definitely the right move. He just needed to keep it this way and eventually bring on Matic for VdB to shield the defence a bit better. Maybe Greenwood on later for either Ronaldo or Bruno.

The back 3 was just too defensive and invited them to come on to us and it cost us big time.
 

Dave Smith

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The whole see Chelsea against Liverpool argument suggests that Chelsea are an amazing team that will do that whenever they go down to 10 men, so go back the end of last season and see Chelsea vs West Brom in April. Teams have good days and bad days, against Liverpool, Chelsea had a good day against West Brom, like you against Young Boys they had a bit of a mare.
I am not saying Chelsea are the team to watch everytime they go down to ten men (although I did phase that second reply in a way that suggested I did mean that.) What I was really getting at was see that performance as an example of a team that knows how to deal with going down to ten men since they have a very clear system/style of play as they handled a 10 v 11 really well and appeared that they had done some work on such an eventuality.
 
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luke511

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Brentford switching from a back 5 to back 4 after the red card speaks volumes:

 

ReddBalls

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Brentford switching from a back 5 to back 4 after the red card speaks volumes:

It might, but it is different having one man less for an hour on 1-0 and being 2-0 up, already having won the game and be one body less for 25 minutes.
 

luke511

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It might, but it is different having one man less for an hour on 1-0 and being 2-0 up, already having won the game and be one body less for 25 minutes.
He would've done the same change if it was a 1 goal lead and earlier on in the game I'm sure.
 

Bearded One

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Every year there’s always that championship team that does very well. Brentford is that team this year.
 

luke511

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Yeah. But the end result might not be the same.
Maybe so, but at least Thomas Frank made the right choices tactically in that scenario to minimise the chances of them conceding. It worked like a treat in the period of the game you're most likely to concede statistically.
 

Sylar

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Didn’t Wolves gives us problems when we played them?

Wolves were poor because Brentford was good at keeping position.
Wolves gave spurs and Leicester? problems too

Today they were just bad, even before the sending off
 

OrcaFat

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A lot of people saying it’s important to keep possession but that’s very hard with 10 men. Better to defend and counter.

You have to leave a CF up and he plays back to goal mostly and it has to stick to him. Pace required in midfield to run past the CF. Not sure we had the players for it the other night.

Lindelof Varane Maguire Shaw
Fred
Greenwood Pogba VDB
Martial​

So Bruno, Sancho and Ronaldo off; Varane, Greenwood, Martial on. And yes, I can imagine the caning Ole would have got if he did that. Not sure what he actually did was worse than any other suggestions I’ve heard.
 

hobbers

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4-4-1 The obvious solution to going a man down when a goal up.

Specifically with us vs Young Boys after half time we could have had something like....

Lindelof Varane Maguire Shaw
Bruno Fred VDB Pogba
Ronaldo​

And then moved Pogba up front whenever Ronaldo came off, and put Greenwood on the wing to keep up some threat. If anyone can keep hold of the ball with his back to goal and help move the team up the pitch, its obviously Pogba.

But we ended up with this tragic mess of a system

Dalot Lindelof Varane Maguire Shaw
Fred Matic Pogba
Lingard​
 

paulscholes18

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Go 4-4-1, keep on the only winger you have instead of taking him off and playing someone without pace on the wing, keep your shape out of possession while still look to attack when in possession.

DDG
Dalot Varane Maguire Shaw
Sancho VDB Bruno Pogba
Ronaldo
 

Bestietom

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Coaches should be ready for a man sent off. We don't have the technical knowledge between all the coaches we have. SAF would have seen this game out, probably even made sure we got the second goal needed.
 

Green_Red

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Just wondering (no particular reason!) what is the best way to set up after having a man sent off?

Obviously a lot will depend on how you start the game and the score when someone is sent off. So let’s assume (again, no particular reason!) you start with four at the back, generally dominate possession and are a goal up.

In my opinion, if you go into the game thinking your back four can keep the opposition out then have the courage of your convictions. Leave the back four as a back four.

I also think you don’t feck with minefield. Keep the shape and numbers exactly the same. If it’s good enough to win midfield when you have XI then it becomes even more important to keep a grip on midfield when you’re a man down.

So my conclusion is that the immediate response to getting a player sent off is to tweak things so that the only area you’re a man short is in the attacking third.

Other opinions are available, obviously. Especially if you have examples of other teams/managers successfully taking a different approach.

Go!
Man Utd v Man City when city won 6-1. I think we went down to 9 men that day. Win at all costs should be the approach regardless if there's 11 or 9 on the pitch.