Beyond the hype and the hope, why is this time different?

[DeGea’sFeet]

Good:
1) Rangnick came, saw, said it as it was without burning bridges so will remain to give ten Hag his assessment and maybe recommend players.

2) The club (glazers) appear to trying to change things.

3) Conjecture on my part but let’s look at what we know. Very recently Rangnick said that he recommended we sign a striker in the last 48 hours, he told us the 3 names, one was Dias now at Liverpool, the other two signed by City and Juventus. He said the club (mean scouts) didn’t think they’d improve us. Now those scouts are out and getting replaced.

4) lots of bad influences & meme players going so genuinely will feel like a new and refreshed squad.

5) ten Hag is a good coach, plays great football, knows what he wants and what he expects from others.

Against.
That style of play is attractive but rarely gets you on the edge of your seats and OT can be quiet as feck. If results are bad early on things can turn.

 

[EtH]

Piss take this. Ideas every 3 years takes time. If dont let Mourinho buy his type of players why is it different with ETH?

LvG had his ideas so had Ole and so had Mourinho. ETH will be no more successful than the rest. Is it all down to him? No, we have the same owners and the same ambitions. Top 4

Neither LvG nor Jose were in their pomp as I said. Far from it in fact. And Ole was just completely out of his depth. Never mind the changes at the exec and scouting levels.

But time will tell. Of course.

 

[roonster09]

Neither LvG nor Jose were in their pomp as I said. Far from it in fact. And Ole was just completely out of his depth. Never mind the changes at the exec and scouting levels.

But time will tell. Of course.

Also club let these managers sign their type of players.

 

[red thru&thru]

As some have already said, this time feels different because off all the changes that have happened recently, with the main one being Ed Woodward leaving.

A lot of the main figures at the club post SAF have left and a lot of new footballing people are coming in. Ralf was a great example of the change we've been goung through, when we appointmented him. Ten Hag being chosen over Poch is another.

It of course will take time. But as fans, we will have to be patient. History shows that with patience in the correct coach, pays off. Now it's over to us, as supporters, to support the football.

 

[Sky1981]

This time we knew full well it's the player that's rotten

 

[SouthPredators4]

All these players barely featured/missed big chunks of the last two seasons and are hardly culpable for United being so shit. Singling them out just feels cheap and ill intentioned.

You are under-estimating the impact senior players have on the culture of a club. Factors such as higher wages for underperformers, biased team selection that goes against meritocracy, respect for management, etc.. a cultural reset is needed and ETH will need to have the personality and support to implement it.

 

[klsv]

I'm torn between "not only a new manager but also the most changes in the backrooms since Fergie left" and "sack him now to save anything from the season".

I prefer to be hopeful and optimistic during the summer I think.

 

[Jippy]

ETH has achieved absolutely nothing at United.

Yes, sack him already, the fraud.

 

[roonster09]

Yes, sack him already, the fraud.

Logician

 

[Jippy]

Logician

Well it's true I guess.

 

[bringbackbebe]

This time, there is humility that we are now an average club playing below average football and there is nothing that entitles us to claim we are elite and one marquee signing will get us back to winning ways. We've shed the aura of arrogance that's plagued us for the last decade. The changes are we making is incremental and in the right direction.

 

[ROFLUTION]

The new thing is the manager has fresh and not old or make it up as you go (ole) ideas about football. And a lot of the deadwood and bad culture moves away (also the good though, Mata/Matic)

The bad thing might be our scouting and negotiation structure is under construction. That can go either way, but surely not be great from the get go. First couple of seasons should therefore be tough as Ten Hag might also be limited on transfers that are necessary.

 

[Gazza]

All these players barely featured/missed big chunks of the last two seasons and are hardly culpable for United being so shit. Singling them out just feels cheap and ill intentioned.

which is why replacing them with players who can actually contribute should be exciting to fans. You’re talking about three players on huge money who have been of little actual value this season.

 

[TsuWave]

which is why replacing them with players who can actually contribute should be exciting to fans. You’re talking about three players on huge money who have been of little actual value this season.

The post I quoted says nothing about replacing them, just “no xyz”. Those players leaving doesn’t translate to us replacing them.

 

[Gentile’s Ghost]

You are under-estimating the impact senior players have on the culture of a club. Factors such as higher wages for underperformers, biased team selection that goes against meritocracy, respect for management, etc.. a cultural reset is needed and ETH will need to have the personality and support to implement it.

well said. Toxicity can come from players who are not involved in playing regularly as their bitterness comes to the fore and it can particularly affect younger, impressionable players.

 

[RedRob]

Firstly, it's the first time such a large percentage of the fanbase have been behind a hiring. Moyes was never seen as up to the task, Van Gaal was seen as a dinosaur fifteen years before he got the job, Mourinho was hugely divisive, Solskjaer always carried a sense of having lucked his way into the position and Rangnick was a complete unknown. Bringing in Ten Hag has a feeling of the fanbase being listened to, which is a vast improvement.

Secondly, it's also the first time that we've asked "Who's the best available?" rather than "Who's easy and available?" Of the last five, only two were in management jobs at the time, and neither Everton nor Molde carry the same level of prestige as United.

Thirdly, it's about a change in direction. The last number of managers we've hired were has-beens or never-weres. This is the first one being brought in on the rise. Moyes was projected to be this, but he had very much hit his ceiling, we burned our fingers on that appointment and never really tried again - unless you count Solskjaer who somehow felt for over three years like an extended interim manager than a full timer.

Fourthly, as a lot of others have said, it's about who won't be upstairs as opposed to who will be in the dugout.

It's different because this time the fans had finally woken up and see the real problems in our club: the board and the players. no more spacegoating the managers IF "x", "y" "z" didnt get minutes on the pitch, couldnt be transfered out of club, or given stupid long term new contract. ETH has privilege that both Jose and Ole couldnt afford.

Classic.

 

[mitchmouse]

I'm not sure it will be much different. ETH was not my top choice, although better than some names that were mentioned, and I have the feeling at this stage with needed a bigger character (at the level of Jose in his prime at Chelsea). I also remain unconvinced that the board are willing to back him each and every time, they still want to look important and vital.

That said, it can hardly get worse (let's hope those words don't come back to bite me/us). The whole Ole appointment was a disgrace and arrogance at its highest level - thinking a former legend would succeed at OT when it hasn't at many other PL clubs. The appointment of Moyes with seemingly no other managers considered was top-level buffoonery and without wiping away all those responsible, I'm not sure enough will change. The fact that we weren't even in the running for the likes of Halaand speaks volumes.

However, nothing will end my love affair with the club. If we ever went out of business, that would be the end of my footballling interest and you do have to believe (evidence proves it) that PL dominance is cylical, so I have to hope out time comes around again in my life time...

 

[jesperjaap]

Lot of peole saying hope and expectations different due to the manager and what he has done so far....what? He has cancelled his holiday but not even started.

We do go over the top in excitement with a new manager or signing. things will be different because we have a new manager who wants to turn us into Ajax? Not cirticising him, know little about him but this is a huge pressurised role and lets not forget some managers doing well at the time and big names have failed massively here recently. He needs time, but it will be a good year or two to see if he is the right man or we are back at square one.

Personally the two biggest reasons I have more hope this summer there could be genuine progression are:

1) The changes behind the scenes with staff who have been here a long time as obviously the culture needs to change, that has nothing to do with the manager.

2) The biggest thing for me is simply this is the one transfer window potentially where what should have happened in several summers may actually happen and thats a huge turnover of players. We simply havent made enough signings in any window numbers wise and more importantly we have season after season failed to move on anywhere near the number of players we have had to. It always been 2-4 in when 5+ needed and 2/3 ot when there should have been 7/8...thats a reason why we have a bloated squad full of players not good enough. We could actually see potentially 12-15 players gone this summer and maybe 5.6 coming in....and that is where there is huge huge pressure on ETH and the board I feel.

I think short term, the success of the new manager could well be dcided before we even kick a ball next season, as if we get the recruitment in and out wrong this summer, we are still very much stuck in the mud, get it right and we could move forward significantly challenging for the 3rd best side in the league.

No manager in my mind can really take us forward with this goroup of players, even with the near certain exits adding 2/3 players, the summer window is absolutely huge

 

[TrustInJanuzaj]

Piss take this. Ideas every 3 years takes time. If dont let Mourinho buy his type of players why is it different with ETH?

LvG had his ideas so had Ole and so had Mourinho. ETH will be no more successful than the rest. Is it all down to him? No, we have the same owners and the same ambitions. Top 4

There’s actually zero evidence this is true. Our owners have spent a fortune to try and get back to the top, we’ve just had the wrong hierarchy structure and hired garbage, past it managers. Both of those points now look to be in better hands so there’s genuine reasons for optimism.

 

[phelans shorts]

No Ed

No Judge

No Pogba

No Lingard

No Jones

That's a pretty good reason

Did Phil Jones run over your dog or something? Every thread I notice you post in you’re slagging him off for literally no reason. It’s really very bizarre.

 

[Withnail]

It’s pretty clear there’s been a major change in direction

whether it works or not, only time will tell

Absolutely. Also EtH is a modern manager on an upward trajectory who's best is likely ahead of him. There's no comparison to the likes of Mourinho or LVG.

 

[choccy77]

Did Phil Jones run over your dog or something? Every thread I notice you post in you’re slagging him off for literally no reason. It’s really very bizarre.

Clearly you do not have very high standards, or see the problem with him still at the club.

 

[Withnail]

Clearly you do not have very high standards, or see the problem with him still at the club.

How should we treat players who got injured at work, in your opinion?

 

[choccy77]

How should we treat players who got injured at work, in your opinion?

By not giving them undeserved new long term contracts ffs

 

[phelans shorts]

How should we treat players who got injured at work, in your opinion?

A bolt gun to the back of the head, seemingly.

 

[Foxbatt]

By not giving them undeserved new long term contracts ffs

Let's be honest here. He got it before his long term injury. So please don't make up stories.

 

[Elcabron]

For the first time since Fergie I have the impression that we may have a manager who is strong enough in character and determined to be a success plus the background seems to have changed. Not only Fergie left but David Gill left at the same time. Finally we seem to be putting that right.
Moyes was so far out of his depth, LVG panicked, Mourinho was only here for himself. Ole to begin with there was hope but he was too loyal, not hard enough, ran out of ideas and panicked. Rangnick was a stop gap but could never have the authority as the players knew it was only temporary. If that stop-gap meant sacrificing this season waiting for the right person, all well and good.

Nobody knows either way but if he can get us playing as a team instead of eleven individuals and has respect from the players then we'll have a chance of regaining our status. Any player who doesn't want it can go. And we don't have to sign vastly over-rated expensive players. We have plenty of very good players, just the wrong mentality. And it has to start from the back, our defence is a shambles.

I pretty much agree with all of this. We need someone strong minded to take control and instill discipline, order, belief, togetherness etc. He also needs to play good football and be very good tactically, it's a lot to ask, but from the outside at least, ETH appears to tick all of these boxes, time will tell.

None the previous managers since Fergie were good enough and each had their own flaws which told in the end. Ralph was never going to work as a temporary as it is clear as day that it takes at least 6 months to instill gengenpress, so why appoint him in the first place? Also we didn't have the players for it(still don't) and if all of that wasn't enough, nobody thought to consider the coaching part of the equation, did no one ask him before appointing him what coaches he would be bringing with him?

Back to ETH, player recruitment will also be key, we need to sign quality players who fit his system. We are in trouble if we don't do t that and it won't matter how good ETH is if we dont, so it's a crucial summer ahead, three or four of the right signings will do for this summer.....bad and all as we have been this year, we are still not far off top four amazingly. So I think three or four very astute signings this summer will get us back into the top four next season. Same again then in summer 2023 and we need to be challenging from then on.

Final point on the defence, yes I agree that it is a shambles but I think the non existent midfield is a huge part of that problem.

 

[Murder on Zidane's Floor]

Like all processes it will get worse before it gets better but the path is the right one.

 

[RC89]

For me it's not just about ETH. He plays a part for sure, but it's the changes in the structure off the pitch. The boys club seem to be disbanding and I'm hoping we'll be all the better for it.

 

[Withnail]

By not giving them undeserved new long term contracts ffs

Are you are that's what happened?

He signed his last contract in Feb 19. He featured about 20 times in the league in 16/17, 17/18 and 18/19. He then got the bad knee injury which has kept him out long-term the following season.

 

[Withnail]

A bolt gun to the back of the head, seemingly.

Ha! I just don't get how people get so angry about a situation they're misinformed about. If something bothered me that much, I'd at least do the bare minimum of research.

 

[Josep Dowling]

I’ll reserve my positivity when I see how quickly we bring in players for areas we need, how much investment is made, and who we get rid of. Bringing in a good manager is a small fraction of the project. I still don’t trust the owners to get it right.

 

[Josep Dowling]

Let's be honest here. He got it before his long term injury. So please don't make up stories.

At the time he was given a contract extension we had far too many CBs and he was bottom of the pile for starting. That on top of his injury record should have meant he didn’t get a contract extension. 5 years later he’s still being paid and has not played regularly for years.

 

[Smithy89]

A bulk of players are going, woodward is gone, head scouts are also gone, and actually have a manager coming up rather than more on the decline like LVG and more so Jose.

 

[LordSpud]

For me its more a case of if we dont get it right this time then we just never will I dont think.

We now have a guy here with a genuine track record of rebuilding clubs consulting ours on things.

We have the best manager possibly available to us who in the past has been a master of coaching hidden gems and making them class. Now he has a hell of a lot more resources available and can also buy better.

My fingers are crossed that the Glazers and the Board are on board with this project and dont just abandon it next year if we make Top 4 and then decide to rest on their laurels.

Time will tell I suppose.

 

[Adnan]

If you look at the most successful clubs currently in Europe and in particular in the EPL. There's one thing they've been doing that we haven't, and that is that they've had a DoF/head coach structure on the football side of the club. Whilst we have persevered with a board/manager structure and even afforded the managers their own personal scouts.

What's different now is that we've hired a head coach and he's been hired by the figure head on the football side of the club, and not by one of the board members who comes from a banking/accounting background. Also said head coach is very in-tune with the modern game when it comes to understanding and implementing offensive and defensive transitions in a proactive attacking manner with counter pressing capabilities. And that's a first for us and is also 9 years too late.

I don't know how long it will take for us to win the league, but i'm confident that under a DoF/head coach structure we will get closer than ever before post Fergie. Jurgen Klopp is a world class head coach but he also understood the importance of embracing Liverpool's existing football department which he tweaked to align the whole process to help him achieve what he has thus far. And the same football structure at Liverpool led by Michael Edwards was a laughing stock pre Jurgen Klopp. Mourinho and Solskjaer sadly did the opposite of Klopp and went the Brendan Rodgers route and recruitment became a big mess with both clubs having football departments being at loggerheads with the manager according to various reports.

If you hire a manager and he isn't receptive to working with a large team of people on the football side of the club, then you're in trouble. But the big difference for us currently is that the football department at the club has hired a coach who understands his role as the head coach and not the manager. And it is this change that has been too long in coming, which will eventually take us back to the top imo.

 

[Ramshock]

If first impressions are anything to go by, Erik Ten Hag seems to be doing all the right things so far. Not only has he cancelled his holiday to start work early, if reports are to believed he has identified some of his transfer targets and given some indication of those who may not be part of his plans. All things considered ETH seems to be getting to grips with the task and my goodness he needs to, because this is going to be a gargantuan job. There is a genuine sense of optimism at the club and if the response of our rivals is anything to go by, we may have finally appointed the manager to turn this tanker around.

Whilst my optimism is within my gift I am also a logician. As it stands ETH has achieved absolutely nothing at United.

If the truth be told I remember exactly the same sense of excitement when Van Gaal and Mourinho were appointed. I was not initially as excited by Ole's appointment, but after his early record breaking run I was soon converted. Upon Ole's departure, I quickly drank the Ralf Rangnick Kool-Aid, believing that if we were appointing the gegenpress meister, the mentor of Klopp and Tuchel, what could possibly go wrong? Well the rest is history, because I have been wrong , wrong and wrong again. When it comes down to it, I have no idea why I am more optimistic this time, other than the fact, that the alternative is inconceivable.

So beyond the hype and the hope, why do you think that it will be different this time?

Because he can coach

 

[2 man midfield]

I guess time will tell but it feels like major surgery has gone on to remove the cancer that had set in. Previously it was the same regime with a different patsy there to take the flack when it went tits up. Sack him, get another one. Rinse and repeat.

At least now Woodward has gone, the chief scouts have gone and we have Murtough, Fletcher and allegedly Rangnick making the football decisions. It seems like the last decade was basically a Woodward power trip, as he lurched from big signing to big signing (managers included) trying to show off how big our commercial dick was.

The ethos seems to have changed now, and that’s an even bigger cause for optimism than just changing the figurehead at the top. A working structure means that you don’t need overhauls every 3 years, or even the worlds best coach to get the team pulling in the same direction. A broken structure means that even the worlds best coach has his work cut out. We’re finally doing something to help our managers instead of hinder them, and that’s what’s changed.

 

[Tavern in the town]

Realistically, results will be worse before they get better unless he has a very surprising start. His style of play is much harder to coach than any manager we've had so far. LVG tried to coach this kind of approach but it didn't work out in the end.

Things inside the club are changing at the moment. Key positions are being replaced and it seems that we have finally realised that the problem is not just the players or the manager.

Time will tell.

Why are people so resigned to this? We are one of the absolute worst teams in the league in terms of form right now. If he can’t improve from that straight away it’d be quite worrying.

 

[Terrific Tangerine]

My instinct tells me that ETH will run the team in a professional and competent manner. Whether that leads to success will depend on whether the major issues elsewhere in the club have been truly sorted or just ameliorated with the recent changes.

I have a suspicion that the answer is those problems won't ever be sorted until there's new ownership, but ETH's talents will lead to the team being at least competitive against the major teams and leading to some trophies.

Probably a mourinho or houllier level of success.

I do think this season was as bad as it gets.