Biggest positive from the summer: Shipping out more deadwood

[FC Ronaldo]

Re-calibration of wage structure too is massive. Acting on Martial now gets his wages in at a reasonable amount too as opposed to acting in 12 months time when the demand could be doubled.

Makes me think we massively over budgeted against FFP last year to set us straight and this is considered, but complete realignment.

Pray for an injury free season though. A repeat of last year would decimate us.

 

[finneh]

Our business in general has been pretty good in difficult circumstances, not that you'd know it from here of course. Getting £50m for Welbeck, Hernandez, Evans, Buttner, M.Keane, Bebe & Kagawa was impressive. Likewise finding buyers at all given the wages and various problems with RVP, Anderson, Fletcher, Nani & Rafael.

In terms of transfers in I don't think anyone can really complain at the costs associated with Blind, Romero, Shaw, Herrera, Rojo, Schweinsteiger, Schneiderlin, Depay & Darmian. They are all either meeting or outperforming expectations, given the roles they were bought to fulfill. The only real problems have been players coming in with a huge reputation and not meeting expectations - Falcao/Di Maria cost us somewhere in the region of £25m plus wages. Again it would be difficult to argue the club could have foreseen these players failing miserably.

The final sticking point is seemingly the cost of Martial, which is exceptionally high. However it can't really be judged as a success or failure for 12-24 months. Given how some of the fans on here were celebrating like we'd won a trophy upon signing Di Maria/Falcao and how that turned out; it would be quite ironic if Martial matched or even surpassed the expectations associated with his fee, after many fans seem to be lambasting his signing.

I'd say Van Gaal has undergone one of the most successfully quick re-building jobs that could be expected since July 2013. It's other elements of Van Gaal's management that should be under scrutiny; certainly not his transfer policy. Especially as this re-building job has given us the wage freedom to aggressively go after the likes of Pogba, Bale, Reus, Greizmann etc and any other potentially World Class players as and when they become available.

 

[facund]

Nani could have offered pace, creativity and goals to the team. Not every game but he was always good for a contribution every other game (on average).

Hernandez seems strange to me as well, fair do's LVG doesn't rate him but then why bother playing him at all this season if you are going to get rid after 60 minutes of football from the bench after a very limited preseason.
Januzaj is much the same, why have him start four consecutive games and then ship him out on loan. It doesn't bode well for those that Januzaj was keeping out of the team does it. Not good enough to be ahead of a player that we need to send away to develop because he's not yet good enough.

I think both the Hernandez and Januzaj moves are good (both need regular football) but the situations surrounding them seem confusing and odd to say the least.

 

[Annihilate Now!]

We have 18 outfield players (if Wilson goes out on loan) - 20 if you include Pereira and Lingard.

It's all well and good getting rid of "deadwood" but not at the expense of barely having enough players to fill a squad.

 

[Rednotdead]

We have 18 outfield players (if Wilson goes out on loan) - 20 if you include Pereira and Lingard.

It's all well and good getting rid of "deadwood" but not at the expense of barely having enough players to fill a squad.

A few injuries and we're totally f*cked.

 

[JustFootballFan]

Shipping out deadwood is only useful if you sign (better) replacements... which we haven't done in quite a few positions, namely striker and CB. So it's 1 step forward two steps back in that regard.

You´d also have to question how dead the wood is, when these players return to the form away from United. Happened with Nani, Kagawa and Chicarito. Will obviously happen with a player of DiMaria´s quality.

Chicarito for example had a scorerpoint every 61 minutes in La Liga last season. For comparison Benzema every 88 minutes, Bale every 117 minutes, Ronaldo every 48 minutes (including tons of penalties), Rodriguez every 87 minutes. Now I´m not suggesting he´s as good as these guys, but he costs a fraction and is still only 27. It´s not hard to see why Leverkusen thinks that at €11M they could have a great deal at their hands.

At which point do you ask yourself how much the club itself (or the manager) might be the problem?

 

[Igor Drefljak]

Absolute farce of a transfer window if it stays like this

 

[finneh]

We have 18 outfield players (if Wilson goes out on loan) - 20 if you include Pereira and Lingard.

It's all well and good getting rid of "deadwood" but not at the expense of barely having enough players to fill a squad.

You have to assume that Van Gaal didn't intend to play these players unless forced to do so by an injury crises regardless. It's fair to say that Evans had fallen down to 6th choice centre back (behind Blind, Smalling, McNair, Rojo & Jones), Hernandez had seemingly fallen down to 4th or 5th choice centre forward (behind Rooney, Fellaini, Martial & possibly Wilson) and Januzaj obviously didn't do enough in the opening games to convince Van Gaal he'd be anything other than a backup to the likes of Mata, Young, Depay, Martial & Herrera and that his development would be better served starting more regularly.

In terms of players who will actually get a game this year we still have more numbers than Chelsea/City.

 

[Acole9]

Criticise van Gaal what you will but he's done a terrific job weeding all the shite out.

 

[Spoony]

Criticise van Gaal what you will but he's done a terrific job weeding all the shite out.

Souness-like.

 

[Treble]

Calling players deadwood is disrespectful.

 

[stepic]

You´d also have to question how dead the wood is, when these players return to the form away from United. Happened with Nani, Kagawa and Chicarito. Will obviously happen with a player of DiMaria´s quality.

Chicarito for example had a scorerpoint every 61 minutes in La Liga last season. For comparison Benzema every 88 minutes, Bale every 117 minutes, Ronaldo every 48 minutes (including tons of penalties), Rodriguez every 87 minutes. Now I´m not suggesting he´s as good as these guys, but he costs a fraction and is still only 27. It´s not hard to see why Leverkusen thinks that at €11M they could have a great deal at their hands.

At which point do you ask yourself how much the club itself (or the manager) might be the problem?

Chico was so good Madrid... didnt want him.

He's one dimensional, and not particularly great. Rather give the time to Periera and Wilson.

Also Kagawa and Nani hardly se the world alight last season either.

 

[Tosicsleftpeg]

Chico was so good Madrid... didnt want him.

He's one dimensional, and not particularly great. Rather give the time to Periera and Wilson.

Also Kagawa and Nani hardly se the world alight last season either.

Totally agree with this.

The over rating of Nani on here is becoming a bit stupid, i for one totally remember how annonymous he could be for 5 or 6 games on the spin or even more than that and then would whip in a cross and get an assist of score a nice goal. People seem to remember the odd goal and not the half dozen games in a row where he would do nothing.

I want our young players to get some games this season and i think Perreria looks like an exceptional talent. I am however very disapointed that Januzaj has left the club on loan as i think he would have gotten alot of games this year. Hopefully Mata can get some central games now as out on the right i feel we miss out on a large element of his play.

 

[Kill 'em all]

He's done a wonderful job at reducing our wage bill and moving on players that weren't needed or just weren't good enough anymore to be here. Rooney might be the only anomaly in our wage structure.

 

[Lawman]

We have had a brilliant summer. Signings that make sense and all at the right age. Getting rid of the deadwood is awesome. The only thing is I would have kept RVP and bought a centre back. We should have invested in Stones if we couldn't have gotten our top target. £40m for a potential world class English player. If he didn't quite reach that level then he'd still have been a very useful player for us.

 

[fatboy]

We should have kept RvP, and signed a left-footed forward. Plus given Evan's and Blackett's moves, maybe we should have got another left-footed defender in.

All in all, it's a decent transfer window, and an astronomical wage bill drastically reduced.

 

[wiz4231]

We still need to clearout some more, Valdes, Valencia. Blackett, Rothwell and W.Keane don't have a future at top level. Other player that have done well for us need to go, Fellaini, Young, Carrick (age) and Rooney (finished at top level). Still a lot of work to be done. Will be interesting to see how the next 2 transfer windows pan out if LVG is still at club.

 

[RedChip]

Am quite happy with departures and I think, assuming he is still here, LvG will complete the job next year by shipping out Rooney.

 

[SirAF]

Am quite happy with departures and I think, assuming he is still here, LvG will complete the job next year by shipping out Rooney.

This!

 

[Raees]

it's beeen two years too late unfortunately and has set us back but this was needed. if we build from here, only buying players that will improve us and get us challenging for honours then we will be back at the top soon. look at the squad moyes inherited, compare it to the squads of city, chelsea, arsenal, even liverpool and we were miles behind in a lot of areas. we are a lot closer now, we're just a little light. i fully expect that to be sorted by this time next year.

Bloody hell Rimmie you should post in the football forum more often.

 

[Blodssvik]

Some make it sound like United is going through cancer treatment. Some of these supposed cancer cells helped us win things. The new signings however are valued and considered great contributors to some presumed successful future. We're now left relying a lot on the new guys. Good thing they're all with certainty going to be world class here according to the prophets.

 

[mark_a]

I definitely agree that having the clearout has been a major highlight - though I do think we should have been better at clearing as we went along. But, as with recruitment, we're paying a the price a bit for SAFs last 2 seasons & Moyes first. Maybe SAF let some sentiment creep in when it came to clearing out players? And maybe Moyes figured that the side had won the league so must be up to the job.

Anyway, it'll be nice for me not to have to keep saying "Oh yes, X, I'd forgotten about him. Is he on loan? Oh, he's injured .." etc... Players need to be playing, or a least getting a look in for first team football. I do feel sorry for the players for whom injury has kept them out & limited chances, but that's the way it goes.

 

[mark_a]

I can't believe all the nay-sayers wouldn't have taken this squad in 2013/4 season. Yes, the football may not be gelling yet, but at least we have seen the potential of the team & we have some players who seem to want to win a place in the team. That's a lot more than we had in the weird post-SAF days

 

[He'sRaldo]

Reading this thread again, is there a difference between what Ole did and what van Gaal did?


Also, surely there's a better way to rebuild than getting rid of quite a few players without the guarantee of good performances from their replacements, or even that there will be any replacements in some cases.


Is history just repeating itself on the transfer front?


The OP of the thread honestly reads a bit similar to the one of this thread: https://www.redcafe.net/threads/the-deadwoods-assassinated-by-babyface.450195/

 

[Steve Bruce]

Reading this thread again, is there a difference between what Ole did and what van Gaal did?


Also, surely there's a better way to rebuild than getting rid of quite a few players without the guarantee of good performances from their replacements, or even that there will be any replacements in some cases.


Is history just repeating itself on the transfer front?


The OP of the thread honestly reads a bit similar to the one of this thread: https://www.redcafe.net/threads/the-deadwoods-assassinated-by-babyface.450195/

TBH all the new signings have performed well, unlike under LVG where Di Maria, Falcao & Depay where all poor.

 

[He'sRaldo]

TBH all the new signings have performed well, unlike under LVG where Di Maria, Falcao & Depay where all poor.

I agree the incomings haven't been too bad performance-wise. However, we didn't replace a lot of the outgoings, and their stand-ins have been poor. Especially the midfield and striker positions.


I do have problems with the incomings purely on the basis of money spent and priority, though.

 

[el3mel]

TBH all the new signings have performed well, unlike under LVG where Di Maria, Falcao & Depay where all poor.

LVG signings also performed pretty well in the first 2-3 months here though. In this summer the thread was talking about, Darmian won POTM in his first month, Depay was doing pretty well, Martial was great ( the only one who ended up having a good season and not dropping back ) and Bastian was looking like a key in our midfield. We even reached top of the league before losing 3-0 to Arsenal. Everything went to shite during November and December iirc.

So the judge is still on if Ole's signings will remain good for the rest of the season or things will drop too.

@He'sRaldo Excellent bump imo. I had said several Ole did exactly the same as LVG this season, mass selling without buying, which leaves you with a thread thin squad. Ole is out of his depth though but I don't get how a manager as experienced as LVG didn't think of that.

 

[Johan07]

Reading this thread again, is there a difference between what Ole did and what van Gaal did?


Also, surely there's a better way to rebuild than getting rid of quite a few players without the guarantee of good performances from their replacements, or even that there will be replacements in some cases.


Is history just repeating itself on the transfer front?


The OP of the thread honestly reads a bit similar to the one of this thread: https://www.redcafe.net/threads/the-deadwoods-assassinated-by-babyface.450195/

What Ole is doing is very, very similar to what LVG tried to do.
Difference being that Ole has better youth than what LVG had and maybe also that LVG also signed some experience in the mould of Schweini to compensate for what he was trying to do.
Ole has not done the latter, which is a pity IMO.
The similarity is that both have been/is struck by a terrible injury bug and then that type of approach is laid out for what it is for all to see. It killed LVGs team when it happened and now it is hurting the current team.
Not as a bad strategy in itself what both tried/is trying to do, but it does reflect on how sensitive it is in the competiveness that is the PL today to try that approach.
I have written this in a couple of threads, but in the PL today you cant have your second team made up of Chongs. Garners, Gomeses and Greenwoods. Or even McTominay or Pereira. Its at least three too many at once. It might work if your first choices are lucky and stays injury free, otherwise; hm, maybe not so much...

 

[He'sRaldo]

LVG signings also performed pretty well in the first 2-3 months here though. In this summer the thread was talking about, Darmian won POTM in his first month, Depay was doing pretty well, Martial was great ( the only one who ended up having a good season and not dropping back ) and Bastian was looking like a key in our midfield. We even reached top of the league before losing 3-0 to Arsenal. Everything went to shite during November and December iirc.

So the judge is still on if Ole's signings will remain good for the rest of the season or things will drop too.

@He'sRaldo Excellent bump imo. I had said several Ole did exactly the same as LVG this season, mass selling without buying, which leaves you with a thread thin squad. Ole is out of his depth though but I don't get how a manager as experienced as LVG didn't think of that.

Cheers. I was definitely supportive of Ole's dealings initially, but unfortunately, reality has hit and with the benefit of hindsight, I'm becoming less and less of a fan.

Your point about the new signings is true as well, it would be even worse for someone like Maguire were that to happen, with the world record fee involved. The age profiles of AWB and Dan James means that they will be safe for a few seasons, but we never know how they'll turn out eventually. Shaw, for example, looked very good at AWB's age, and now we're talking of replacing him.

 

[Eric7C]

The title of this thread is an embarrassment. There should be an injunction within the club against anybody who decided to get rid of players, deadwood or not, without getting replacements. We are about to enter a relegation fight over the next few weeks.

 

[Johan07]

The title of this thread is an embarrassment. There should be an injunction within the club against anybody who decided to get rid of players, deadwood or not, without getting replacements. We are about to enter a relegation fight over the next few weeks.

Or we will win a couple of games in a row and we are top-four. The table is pretty tight except for the despicables. Its way too early to panic yet.

 

[He'sRaldo]

What Ole is doing is very, very similar to what LVG tried to do.
Difference being that Ole has better youth than what LVG had and maybe also that LVG also signed some experience in the mould of Schweini to compensate for what he was trying to do.
Ole has not done the latter, which is a pity IMO.
The similarity is that both have been/is struck by a terrible injury bug and then that type of approach is laid out for what it is for all to see. It killed LVGs team when it happened and now it is hurting the current team.
Not as a bad strategy in itself what both tried/is trying to do, but it does reflect on how sensitive it is in the competiveness that is the PL today to try that approach.
I have written this in a couple of threads, but in the PL today you cant have your second team made up of Chongs. Garners, Gomeses and Greenwoods. Or even McTominay or Pereira. Its at least three too many at once. It might work if your first choices are lucky and stays injury free, otherwise; hm, maybe not so much...

You raise an interesting point about "experience".

In my opinion, we've been going after the wrong age profiles for key positions for a while now, either too old or too young. The few prime players we have gotten have been the better players in our squads, with a few exceptions.

With all the talk of youth among the fanbase and Ole himself, I'm a bit worried we'll start building a team that has no prime-aged players; which IMO could be a mistake.

 

[Eric7C]

Or we will win a couple of games in a row and we are top-four. The table is pretty tight except for the despicables. Its way too early to panic yet.

Which ones? I am struggling to see our next win.

 

[He'sRaldo]

What Ole is doing is very, very similar to what LVG tried to do.
Difference being that Ole has better youth than what LVG had and maybe also that LVG also signed some experience in the mould of Schweini to compensate for what he was trying to do.
Ole has not done the latter, which is a pity IMO.
The similarity is that both have been/is struck by a terrible injury bug and then that type of approach is laid out for what it is for all to see. It killed LVGs team when it happened and now it is hurting the current team.
Not as a bad strategy in itself what both tried/is trying to do, but it does reflect on how sensitive it is in the competiveness that is the PL today to try that approach.
I have written this in a couple of threads, but in the PL today you cant have your second team made up of Chongs. Garners, Gomeses and Greenwoods. Or even McTominay or Pereira. Its at least three too many at once. It might work if your first choices are lucky and stays injury free, otherwise; hm, maybe not so much...

The other thing is, like you said their approaches are similar.

So, surely people in the club who are in charge of transfers must have learned from LVG's mistakes and tried to either warn Ole or help him get replacements so we don't end up in a similar situation?

It seems like no one learned anything from the last time.

 

[Johan07]

You raise an interesting point about "experience".

In my opinion, we've been going after the wrong age profiles for key positions for a while now, either too old or too young. The few prime players we have gotten have been the better players in our squads, with a few exceptions.

With all the talk of youth among the fanbase and Ole himself, I'm a bit worried we'll start building a team that has no prime-aged players; which IMO could be a mistake.

Sheringham, Blanc, Henrik Larsson. The list goes on. Sir Alex knew when the squad was unbalanced age and experience-wise.
All for giving youth a chance but with Fellaini and Herrera gone we should have gotten in a proven experienced midfielder this summer.
I have gone on about Matuidi in some other threads and I would not be complaining if we had brought Zlatan back after we let Lukaku go.
We need to wait for our main targets like Sancho and maybe Partey in midfield, and therefore one or two experienced players might not be so bad for a year or two since we have gotten rid of so many in such a short time. Like LVG did.
This squad plus Matuidi and Zlatan (or Mandzukic) I would have been very happy with. Its too unbalanced towards youth now though to be able to compete if there are injuries. Which there already are of course.
This is going to be a process and it has to be just that, and then we have to be patient.

 

[Suvvernmanc]

LVG got rid of some of our best players and left gaping holes in the squad by letting Evans, Nani and Chicharito go. And bought in more average shit that we still have now.

Our problem now though isn't that we have average/poor players still in the squad, it is that we don't have the quality and numbers. We have the most inadequate midfield in the league and need a right winger and a striker.

 

[Johan07]

The other thing is, like you said their approaches are similar.

So, surely people in the club who are in charge of transfers must have learned from LVG's mistakes and tried to either warn Ole or help him get replacements so we don't end up in a similar situation?

It seems like no one learned anything from the last time.

I have no idea about about this or what discussion has going on, but OGS is on record saying that he wants to maximize minutes for the young talent. Its the exact same argument that LVG used once upon a time.
And its not even wrong tbf. But you need to be lucky with injuries if you are going to play a small squad and then trust youth. To an extent at least. So its a big risk, even if our youth now is more talented than under LVG.
IMO we overdid it this summer, and we should have gotten one or two experienced players (even just as back-ups) in just because of what is happening now. It would not cost that much either.

 

[He'sRaldo]

LVG got rid of some of our best players and left gaping holes in the squad by letting Evans, Nani and Chicharito go. And bought in more average shit that we still have now.

Our problem now though isn't that we have average/poor players still in the squad, it is that we don't have the quality and numbers. We have the most inadequate midfield in the league and need a right winger and a striker.

We definitely have a lot of average and poor players, as well as gaping holes in the squad.

The only difference is Ole's incomings have been good thus far but, of course, even that could change in a year or two.

 

[Leftback99]

What a terrible set of decisions that was. LVG set us back years.

 

[BlueHaze]

Or we will win a couple of games in a row and we are top-four. The table is pretty tight except for the despicables. Its way too early to panic yet.

I can accept your post if you havn't watched many games live this season but if you have and you're saying it's too early to panic then I'm truly loss for words. We are playing the most dire shit I've seen in my lifetime and we have literally sunk so low we couldn't even draw against Bruce's Newcastle. It's definitely time to panic, this could become a nightmare pretty soon if changes are not made.