BLM in the Prem

P-Ro

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I don't see the Tweet in question (despite my issues with them misusing the Zionist term) as Anti-Semitic, rather their issue is over both Israel's recent actions against the Palestinians and in relation to attempts by some to shut down fair criticism of the Israeli Right by accusing said critics of being Anti-Semitic.
It's antisemitic because of the use of the term "gagged" which alludes to a Jewish conspiracy that goes beyond the topic at hand and is used to blame the Jewish people for all sorts of wrongs in the world.

Likewise while I do disagree with those among the Black Lives Matter Movement that want to "Defund/Abolish the Police", I don't really blame them for holding such a view. What I do feel however is that their focus (on both sides of the Altantic) should more on encouraging more Non-Whites to join the Police, for the Police to take Bigtory of all kinds more seriously (and to be given more resources to stop it) and for any Bigots within our Police Forces to be kicked out of said forces. All those measures would be far more effective at reducing Racism on both sides of the Atlantic compared any attempt to "Defund/Abolish the Police.
I don't blame them either but it's a pretty radical position to take and one which I don't think the Premier League should be promoting by having the name of the movement that supports these positions on the backs of football shirts.
 

Red Keane

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It's antisemitic because of the use of the term "gagged" which alludes to a Jewish conspiracy that goes beyond the topic at hand and is used to blame the Jewish people for all sorts of wrongs in the world.
If I am not mistaken, they where mainly refering to Keir Starmer's actions against Rebecca Long-Bailey rather than any particular conspiracy theory involving the Jewish Community. Even if there are Anti-Zionists out there that actually believe in those sorts of conspiracy theories.

I don't blame them either but it's a pretty radical position to take and one which I don't think the Premier League should be promoting by having the name of the movement that supports these positions on the backs of football shirts.
I understand where you are coming from to be fair, although I would point out that one could support the concept of Black Lives Matter while still opposing the concept of "Defunding/Abolishing the Police" (as I do myself). Thus I feel that the focus should be on trying to promoting better alternatives to "Defunding/Abolishing the Police" (such as the ones I suggested) rather than on whatever slogans are on players shirts.

Likewise I would also point out that if the Premier League, Football League, National League & The FA want to actually deal with all forms of Bigtory within Football, they would be more effective in introducing harsher punishments in this area (such as points deductions), as well as put pressure on UEFA to do far more on this area as well.
 

NWRed

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Seeing as they used Football Manager skin tone stats I'd like to see how these percentages stack up against other FM stats, such as pace and strength, as this would be a concrete way to establish if the observed differences in comments arise from actual differences in attributes or bias (intended or not) on the part of the commentators. You'd have to either really stupid or just be obtuse to deny there are differences between different races with regards to average physical attributes (there is a reason events like the sprints in the olympics are dominated by certain ethnicities/countries), so it makes perfect sense that, on average, you'd find those differences reflected in the upper echelons of sport. I think, on average, you'd find black players to be stronger and quicker than their white counter parts and as such, in order to compete, that their white counter parts would have to work harder and/or be smarter with their use of the ball. These are only generic statements based on average performance and there will obviously be many exceptions, but if you're using overall data like this then averages (and measures of spread) are the only stats that matter.

EDIT: having said that, if Souness commentating on a United match where Pogba played is in the sample then that might account for all the difference.
 
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Soph

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Just consider, for a moment, how utterly insignificant and mostly harmless virtually those things are compared to what Black people have gone through & are still going through.
And still, apparently, the rest of us get to patronisingly tell them how they should protest; whether they should protest at all; and to shut up and be satisfied with the begrudging 'progress' achieved at a snail's pace and only when it suits authorities due to overwhelming pressure or crisis or the meeting of force with force despite the danger involved in protest.
In addition to being a minor issue, it's also a willful obfuscation of what's happening that's so common in Internet "debates". Just look at the wording:

" shut down other people’s events when somebody they don’t like is talking ". Emphasis mine. Is it "somebody they don't like"? No, of course not. It's not the annoying neighbor, it's not Nickleback, it's not the latest reality star fad. It's people doing specific things, usually hateful things.

This tendency to generalize specific actions into "somebody/something they don't like" is cowardly and deeply dishonest, it's a way to avoid grappling with the actual issues.
 
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Rafaeldagold

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I mean... I mean is this really your take?
Yes...really.

This report is kinda ridiculous & literally trying to stoke up divisions based on our colour.

Firstly we don’t even know if the players mentioned did have those attributes mentioned.

It should all be about the Individual player & their specific attributes- not looking at what commentators have said & try to fan the flames that they’re being racist somehow .
 

Zambara

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In addition to being a minor issue, it's also a willful obfuscation of what's happening that's so common in Internet "debates". Just look at the wording:

" shut down other people’s events when somebody they don’t like is talking ". Emphasis mine. Is it "somebody they don't like"? No, of course not. It's not the annoying neighbor, it's not Nickleback, it's not the latest reality star fad. It's people doing specific things, usually hateful things.

This tendency to generalize specific actions into "somebody/something they don't like" is cowardly and deeply dishonest, it's a way to avoid grappling with the actual issues.
Those were my words and they were not disingenuous.

It you who is being dishonest.

If we're talking about no-platforming, by this point in time the people who have been no-platformed range from feminist heroes of yesteryear, to Conservative politicians who have a role running the country, to academics who are creditable public figures.

These people were invited around by people who wished to hear them talk, only to have events crashed by third parties.

It's like if you wanted somebody to visit your house, and a mob decided for you, based on their own subjective politics, that you weren't allowed to let them in, and blocked your front door.

Not only is there an extensive list of reasonable people who have been no platformed at events, or mobbed online, but even as an exercise if we discussed only people who did have hateful views: So what?

You either believe that the way this country sorts through the messy business of politics and life is, by consensus, allowing each other to talk, and sorting the good ideas from the bad - which we call Democracy - or you believe it's acceptable to control people by state censorship or group coercion.

If it's the latter, you an Authoritarian.

Trying to dress the way you wield power up in the language of the oppressed, or a noble project, doesn't work either. There hasn't an authoritarian in history, far right-wing or far left-wing, that hasn't used that trick.
 

macheda14

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Yes...really.

This report is kinda ridiculous & literally trying to stoke up divisions based on our colour.

Firstly we don’t even know if the players mentioned did have those attributes mentioned.

It should all be about the Individual player & their specific attributes- not looking at what commentators have said & try to fan the flames that they’re being racist somehow .
I mean you could say that about ANY report on underlying racism.
 

NWRed

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I mean you could say that about ANY report on underlying racism.
The point is denying there are differences between races is disingenuous, there is a reason the 100m Olympic final is virtually exclusively black athletes, because on average black people are faster and stronger than other races. This would mean black professional footballers are, on average, faster and stronger than their white counter parts, and also that only the hardest working and most driven white players would be able to compete.
 

DavidDeSchmikes

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The Premier League says its Black Lives Matter campaign is to send the message that it is unacceptable to treat black people differently to anyone else - and not an endorsement of a political movement.

A series of tweets from the Black Lives Matter UK account about Palestine has prompted criticism.

The Premier League said in a statement it was "aware of the risk posed by groups that seek to hijack popular causes to promote their own political views".

"These actions are entirely unwelcome and are rejected," it added.

After the tweets were posted on Sunday, Labour leader Sir Keir Starmer told BBC Breakfast it was a "shame" the sentiment behind the Black Lives Matter movement was "getting tangled up with these organisational issues" and said it was "nonsense" for the group to call to "defund the police".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/53242328
 

pratyush_utd

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PL should stop their association with BLM now. It doesn't matter if some support their political ideologies but the moment a movement becomes a political movement, sport organization should stay away from them.
 

Red Keane

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PL should stop their association with BLM now. It doesn't matter if some support their political ideologies but the moment a movement becomes a political movement, sport organization should stay away from them.
Black Lives Matter has always been a Political Movement to be fair, even if it one that is (these days) strongly supported across the board. Regardless it does kind of show how it is virtually impossible to put Football above politics, even if the Premier League has done a fair job trying to be above it.
 

TheGodsInRed

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PL should stop their association with BLM now. It doesn't matter if some support their political ideologies but the moment a movement becomes a political movement, sport organization should stay away from them.
They should have just promoted their kick it out campaign. Keeps away From politics, while still delivering support.
 

jojojo

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PL should stop their association with BLM now. It doesn't matter if some support their political ideologies but the moment a movement becomes a political movement, sport organization should stay away from them.
I think you're getting too hung up on organisations with BLM in their name. The movement is about the people on the street, the experiences that are being described, and the broad principle stated in the words "Black lives matter."

Beyond that, life is full of political issues. Football can't avoid that - and it's better to be on the right side of things like the "taking the knee" statement than to be punishing players for it, the way US American football team owners did.
 

SteveJ

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When we support United, and wear United merchandise, it doesn't mean that we support leveraged takeovers or obliging season ticket-holders to attend cup matches they'd rather not attend; we support the idea of Manchester United - an ideal - not its business associations. It's the same as supporting BLM: showing support for the movement doesn't necessarily involve our support for all its organisational imperatives and moves; just the general idea of Black lives actually being important.
 

jojojo

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A reminder of football life for some young players in the 90s - and maybe a hint of why not many black players felt/feel like they would be welcomed in coaching after their playing careers.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/53180306

Abuse dressed up as banter and joking, and as part of the "toughening up" process. Things will have improved, particularly at the bigger clubs - but looking at Twitter comments on some of this stuff, I doubt it's been banished into history elsewhere.
 

jus2nang

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You'd have to either really stupid or just be obtuse to deny there are differences between different races with regards to average physical attributes (there is a reason events like the sprints in the olympics are dominated by certain ethnicities/countries), so it makes perfect sense that, on average, you'd find those differences reflected in the upper echelons of sport.
But studies have shown that there are more intra-racial differences than inter-racial differences. Race is a complete construct based on one genetic component. There are of course differences between people originating from different geographic locations - but that's not race.

I think, on average, you'd find black players to be stronger and quicker than their white counter parts and as such, in order to compete, that their white counter parts would have to work harder and/or be smarter with their use of the ball. These are only generic statements based on average performance and there will obviously be many exceptions, but if you're using overall data like this then averages (and measures of spread) are the only stats that matter.
No they don't. A particular group with roots in West Africa may have a body type and muscle makeup conducive to running fast.

But what is "black"? Is an indigenous Kenyan black? Is an indigenous South African black?

East Africans generally have the body types and muscle makeup useful for long distance running.

But people consider both East and West as "black". Race is a fallacy. The black Kenyan might have more in common genetically with a white German. But no, we choose to group people based on ONE genetic component which manifests itself in the browning of the skin.

Are blondes quicker than brunettes? What about freckles vs no freckles?

The terms black or white have almost no value (other than being useful to identify someone) and until people understand that it's one miniscule genetic difference amongst a host of differences between various peoples but we are in fact largely the same, we will struggle.
 
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SteveJ

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I'd laugh if it wasn't rather depressing: there's an awful lot of 'concerned citizens' who are troubled by the Premier League endorsing Black Lives Matter in light of BLM's supposed political manifesto. It's almost as if those citizens began by not wanting the PL to endorse the fundamental message of the movement at all...
 

afrocentricity

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I'd laugh if it wasn't rather depressing: there's an awful lot of 'concerned citizens' who are troubled by the Premier League endorsing Black Lives Matter in light of BLM's supposed political manifesto. It's almost as if those citizens began by not wanting the PL to endorse the fundamental message of the movement at all...
Yep, or influenced by the media they consume and their social circle, without stopping to think critically about what they are actually consuming and consequently posting, saying, and thinking....
 

Zlatan 7

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When we support United, and wear United merchandise, it doesn't mean that we support leveraged takeovers or obliging season ticket-holders to attend cup matches they'd rather not attend; we support the idea of Manchester United - an ideal - not its business associations. It's the same as supporting BLM: showing support for the movement doesn't necessarily involve our support for all its organisational imperatives and moves; just the general idea of Black lives actually being important.
I agree with all this and understand it, however when footballers such as Pat stop wearing the badge you have to say it’s got muddled now and people don’t know what they’re supporting anymore.

I Find the fact the Redknapp and co took their badges off AFTER seeing pat take his off as funny and quite sad at the same time
 

SteveJ

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Yep, or influenced by the media they consume and their social circle, without stopping to think critically about what they are actually consuming and consequently posting, saying, and thinking....
I cannot stand the way that Black people are forever being told how they should protest - the bloody audacity of this. It's just a more 'acceptable' form of racism, and of control.
 

Born2Lose

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Taking back control. Black lives matter. The simplistic attraction of the slogan strikes again.
 

Zlatan 7

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I'd laugh if it wasn't rather depressing: there's an awful lot of 'concerned citizens' who are troubled by the Premier League endorsing Black Lives Matter in light of BLM's supposed political manifesto. It's almost as if those citizens began by not wanting the PL to endorse the fundamental message of the movement at all...
This is not true either Steve, one can fully support the message and movement but then feel the right to question it when other info and news regarding the exact same banner or slogan is presented.
I questioned it in this thread and was basically shot down, I had some decent answers and can obviously see the difference between the organisations/s and the message now. It wasn’t obvious at the start and the difference between UKBLM and BLMUK still not answered.

yes it’s petty and the message means so much more but I’m sure people have the right to question aspects about it
 

afrocentricity

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I agree with all this and understand it, however when footballers such as Pat stop wearing the badge you have to say it’s got muddled now and people don’t know what they’re supporting anymore.

I Find the fact the Redknapp and co took their badges off AFTER seeing pat take his off as funny and quite sad at the same time
But this is an issue for me also, Ice Cube posts that BLM is a Soros conspiracy and people start to say they no longer support it.... Because Ice Cube is some kind of authority on it?

You have your own feelings, don't just follow unless you agree with their reasoning. Did he give his reasoning?

Pat has his own ideas, but he's one person, and not necessarily right...
 

SteveJ

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This is not true either Steve, one can fully support the message and movement but then feel the right to question it when other info and news regarding the exact same banner or slogan is presented.
I questioned it in this thread and was basically shot down, I had some decent answers and can obviously see the difference between the organisations/s and the message now. It wasn’t obvious at the start and the difference between UKBLM and BLMUK still not answered.

yes it’s petty and the message means so much more but I’m sure people have the right to question aspects about it
Absolutely, and I wish others were as discerning as you. Genuinely-held reasons for doubt are fine; in contrast, an evident rush to 'drop' BLM - for any old reason - at the first opportunity is revealing.
 

Zlatan 7

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But this is an issue for me also, Ice Cube posts that BLM is a Soros conspiracy and people start to say they no longer support it.... Because Ice Cube is some kind of authority on it?

You have your own feelings, don't just follow unless you agree with their reasoning. Did he give his reasoning?

Pat has his own ideas, but he's one person, and not necessarily right...
Totally mate, I agree. I don’t think pat is the font of all knowledge regarding this. Just pointing out how people can get mixed messages from all this
 

SteveJ

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But this is an issue for me also, Ice Cube posts that BLM is a Soros conspiracy and people start to say they no longer support it.... Because Ice Cube is some kind of authority on it?

You have your own feelings, don't just follow unless you agree with their reasoning. Did he give his reasoning?

Pat has his own ideas, but he's one person, and not necessarily right...
It's telling that, on the rare occasion that Black people actually get a chance to speak up, they are cast as spokespeople rather than individuals.
 

Zlatan 7

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Absolutely, and I wish others were as discerning as you. Genuinely-held reasons for doubt are fine; in contrast, an evident rush to 'drop' BLM - for any old reason - at the first opportunity is revealing.
I agree :)
Just trying to clarify that not everyone who questions something has ill intentions
 

afrocentricity

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Totally mate, I agree. I don’t think pat is the font of all knowledge regarding this. Just pointing out how people can get mixed messages from all this
Yeah I know mate just something I wanted to get off my chest :)

This is not true either Steve, one can fully support the message and movement but then feel the right to question it when other info and news regarding the exact same banner or slogan is presented.
I questioned it in this thread and was basically shot down, I had some decent answers and can obviously see the difference between the organisations/s and the message now. It wasn’t obvious at the start and the difference between UKBLM and BLMUK still not answered.

yes it’s petty and the message means so much more but I’m sure people have the right to question aspects about it
First, of course you should question it, question everything.

Second, the difference between UKBLM and BLMUK isn't that important if you're focusing on the actual overarching movement/philosophy/sentiment...

It's often allowing subsets?/offshoots?/sideshows?* to hijack the narrative...

*On this point, I think that if you want to look at a specific subsets agenda then you should actually look at it in more depth than 'they support this and I don't like it'.

You have to look at: Who are they? How representative are they of the whole? What are their goals? How do they fit into the bigger picture? What specific environment are they operating in? Etc...
 
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Cloud7

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PL should stop their association with BLM now. It doesn't matter if some support their political ideologies but the moment a movement becomes a political movement, sport organization should stay away from them.
Sport and politics have always been very, very closely intertwined with each other. Half the reason for a lot of the most heated rivalries in sport is founded on a political basis.
 

The Boy

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But studies have shown that there are more intra-racial differences than inter-racial differences. Race is a complete construct based on one genetic component. There are of course differences between people originating from different geographic locations - but that's not race.


No they don't. A particular group with roots in West Africa may have a body type and muscle makeup conducive to running fast.

But what is "black"? Is an indigenous Kenyan black? Is an indigenous South African black?

East Africans generally have the body types and muscle makeup useful for long distance running.

But people consider both East and West as "black". Race is a fallacy. The black Kenyan might have more in common genetically with a white German. But no, we choose to group people based on ONE genetic component which manifests itself in the browning of the skin.

Are blondes quicker than brunettes? What about freckles vs no freckles?

The terms black or white have almost no value (other than being useful to identify someone) and until people understand that it's one miniscule genetic difference amongst a host of differences between various peoples but we are in fact largely the same, we will struggle.
Good post, I came here to write this when I saw @NWRed had written. The idea that black men are faster runners than white is a complete fallacy and a very unhelpful one that helps perpetuate racial stereotypes. Skin colour is a very misleading way of judging genetic distance between different groups of people. There's alot more that can be said about this but the above post sums it up very well.

Also very simply, think about all the winners of the 100m. If black people are so good at it how come noone from Africa has won the 100m olympic final, the success is focussed pretty much on African Americans and Jamaicans. It is down to the genetics of small groups and nothing to do with skin colour. So to then go on to judge all black footballers by that metric is completely wrong. Skin colour has nothing to do with it.

EDIT: This also sums it up very well https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-14679657
 
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Chesterlestreet

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Race is a fallacy.
Exactly. Scientifically speaking, "race" is a meaningless term. The idea that one "race" has identifiable (and predictable) traits that another "race" significantly lacks is - well, bollocks. It doesn't stand up to scrutiny at all.

ETA I don't remember the details, but there was an amusing story that surfaced a while back - in which an academic of some description (who had made some dubious remarks about "race") had his genetic makeup compared to two colleagues: one "White" guy and one "Asian" guy. The first guy (who was "White", or identified as such), as it turned out, had much more in common - genetically - with the "Asian" guy than the other "White" guy.
 
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Raees

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Can someone explain how when complaining about racism or systemic abuse about black people is okay but as soon as you talk about systemic abuse of Palestinians it is suddenly political?
 

SteveJ

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Scientific classification in itself is problematical.
 

Tony Babangida

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Thought it was genuinely moving to see Pogba taking the knee and raising his fist in the last game. Every movement will have its intracacies but at the core of BLM is a drive towards true equality that everyone should get behind.
 

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Good post, I came here to write this when I saw @NWRed had written. The idea that black men are faster runners than white is a complete fallacy and a very unhelpful one that helps perpetuate racial stereotypes. Skin colour is a very misleading way of judging genetic distance between different groups of people. There's alot more that can be said about this but the above post sums it up very well.

Also very simply, think about all the winners of the 100m. If black people are so good at it how come noone from Africa has won the 100m olympic final, the success is focussed pretty much on African Americans and Jamaicans. It is down to the genetics of small groups and nothing to do with skin colour. So to then go on to judge all black footballers by that metric is completely wrong. Skin colour has nothing to do with it.

EDIT: This also sums it up very well https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-14679657
But most people aren’t saying that “black” people are all quicker than “white” people. It may well be that only a subset have greater propensity for speed but that subset is likely to pop up disproportionately at most sports involving athletic ability - as they do in the 100m.

Therefore, when we are looking at premier league football where speed is a key element, it’s fair to hypothesise that some, not all, of the “black” players may be amongst the quickest in the league. As a result, the “average” black player may well be quicker and those being specifically called out as being rapid are possibly more likely to be black. The point NWRed made
therefore appears entirely fair.
 

NWRed

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But studies have shown that there are more intra-racial differences than inter-racial differences. Race is a complete construct based on one genetic component. There are of course differences between people originating from different geographic locations - but that's not race.


No they don't. A particular group with roots in West Africa may have a body type and muscle makeup conducive to running fast.

But what is "black"? Is an indigenous Kenyan black? Is an indigenous South African black?

East Africans generally have the body types and muscle makeup useful for long distance running.

But people consider both East and West as "black". Race is a fallacy. The black Kenyan might have more in common genetically with a white German. But no, we choose to group people based on ONE genetic component which manifests itself in the browning of the skin.

Are blondes quicker than brunettes? What about freckles vs no freckles?

The terms black or white have almost no value (other than being useful to identify someone) and until people understand that it's one miniscule genetic difference amongst a host of differences between various peoples but we are in fact largely the same, we will struggle.
Good post, I came here to write this when I saw @NWRed had written. The idea that black men are faster runners than white is a complete fallacy and a very unhelpful one that helps perpetuate racial stereotypes. Skin colour is a very misleading way of judging genetic distance between different groups of people. There's alot more that can be said about this but the above post sums it up very well.

Also very simply, think about all the winners of the 100m. If black people are so good at it how come noone from Africa has won the 100m olympic final, the success is focussed pretty much on African Americans and Jamaicans. It is down to the genetics of small groups and nothing to do with skin colour. So to then go on to judge all black footballers by that metric is completely wrong. Skin colour has nothing to do with it.

EDIT: This also sums it up very well https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-14679657
I'm not prepared to get into this minefield of semantics with people over what you perceive my definition of race to be.

My point was drawing conclusions from contextless data without investigating the influence of other factors leads to errors, misinformation and poor decisions.

I will leave this by saying we should be celebrating differences not denying they exist.
 

afrocentricity

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But most people aren’t saying that “black” people are all quicker than “white” people. It may well be that only a subset have greater propensity for speed but that subset is likely to pop up disproportionately at most sports involving athletic ability - as they do in the 100m.

Therefore, when we are looking at premier league football where speed is a key element, it’s fair to hypothesise that some, not all, of the “black” players may be amongst the quickest in the league. As a result, the “average” black player may well be quicker and those being specifically called out as being rapid are possibly more likely to be black. The point NWRed made
therefore appears entirely fair.
Take a step back. Don't rush to confirm your suspicions/assumptions. Question what you believe... This is what we mean by critical thought. A number of posts on this very page have introduced the idea of environment over race but you've literally ignored them all...

drawing conclusions from contextless data without investigating the influence of other factors leads to errors, misinformation and poor decisions
Interesting.... Now apply that to yourself.