I think you need abit more to compare it, how does the map look like for positions, shoots, balls between players, positions on corners etcetera. Just to simple stuff you compared i bet you Even can find 4 Season with sir Alex and find the same
Boring, boring Man United
- Thread starter hubbuh
- Start date
Spot on.
We generally have 4 types of games this season.
1. Bus parkers - Not able to break down 11 men. Boring and we need a Grealish type to fix these games. Even PetroCity have had boring games because of bus parkers.
2. Come from behind to win - So very not boring
3. Cautious big matches - Top 6 have started to respect us now and we both play cautiously. Boring but again a Grealish type will help here.
4. Toe to toe or we get an early lead - Leeds, Southampton, Sociedad etc. Very entertaining
I would say it's 50/50 between boring and entertaining but a lot of the blame for a boring game should be placed on teams that set up defensively.
These teams turn over huge money (I read nearly all PL teams earn more or as much as Juventus) so the poor boy routine doesn't sit well with me anymore.
We don't set up defensively against the bus parkers but obviously in the big games we are just as guilty as the opposition.
I do believe this will change when our squad quality improves.
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Yep, similar figures but Jose was achieving those figures with Fellaini and Lukaku whereas this is a little bit easier on the eye, wouldn't you agree?
Also Mourinho was building the mercenary squad from hell and it was soon to come crashing down on him. Again a little different. I reckon the similarities will end from here on in.
Strange that you would feel the need to bring that up after such a momentous win.
I'd say about half of our PL games would count as quite obviously entertaining, without that necessarily meaning that all the rest have been entirely boring. Also, I struggle to think of teams that have been much more consistently entertaining than that. Leeds, obviously. Can't really think of anyone else. City has been better results-wise, but they have hardly been hugely entertaining this season. Some are always never entertaining (Tottenham, Sheffield Utd, Burnley), regardless of the circumstances. And the rest are like us - they're entertaining when they crush the opposition or when they play an opponent who comes out with an ambitious style and gives them space, otherwise not.
The way I see it is that you have to separate between football which is executed to be boring (but efficient) - and football which is boring because players perform badly / are out of form.
Louis van Gaals football was horribly boring - his plan was to pass the ball around 5 million times and hopefully get a goal after keeping the ball in the team for 5 minutes. David Moyes football while at United was boring - it was long balls, set-pieces, crosses - and signing Mata and Fellaini took away the pace in our attacks.
If you put Greenwood, Rashford, Martial and Bruno on the same pitch - you don't want to play boring football - but if we put 9-10 players in defence and try to counter-attack - it will be boring if 2-3 of our attacking players have an off-day. But if those same players play to the best of the ability, we can counter any team in the world to pieces - that will not be boring to watch. Jose Mourinhos first Chelsea-side was probably the biggest experts on this type óf football - they could sit back with an incredibly strong defence and then hit teams on the counter - with great pace.
I think this is the same kind of football Jose wants to play today with Spurs - but he hasn't got the players for it. Score a goal - defend and hit teams on the counter. But Kane and Son alone will not be good enough at counters, and defenders like Rodon, Sanchez, Aurier, Reguilon, Dier - they are not good enough to shut teams out. And at the same time - Højbjerg, Sissoko, Lamela, Lo Celso are not creative enough to turn defence into attack - so even if they win the ball back, they can't set up Son and Kane. Spurs were defending for 45 minutes against United and I counted only 2 decent attempts at counter-attacks despite us having most of our players in the Spurs-half during that 2nd half.
Manchester Uniteds football has been boring from time to time this season - but that has been because several of our attacking players have been poor. Greenwood has only recently found last seasons form - Rashford has been struggling with injuries and form from time to time, Martial has been a shadow of the player he was last season, Pogba was poor in the first half of the season and Bruno has looked jaded.
Now when these players start to hit form - we don't look boring anymore. But I don't Think our coaches and our manager told the players anything differently today than they did against Crystal Palace. They want us to play in the same way - it's just that we now have in-form players - and then everything looks much more exciting.
Louis van Gaals football was horribly boring - his plan was to pass the ball around 5 million times and hopefully get a goal after keeping the ball in the team for 5 minutes. David Moyes football while at United was boring - it was long balls, set-pieces, crosses - and signing Mata and Fellaini took away the pace in our attacks.
If you put Greenwood, Rashford, Martial and Bruno on the same pitch - you don't want to play boring football - but if we put 9-10 players in defence and try to counter-attack - it will be boring if 2-3 of our attacking players have an off-day. But if those same players play to the best of the ability, we can counter any team in the world to pieces - that will not be boring to watch. Jose Mourinhos first Chelsea-side was probably the biggest experts on this type óf football - they could sit back with an incredibly strong defence and then hit teams on the counter - with great pace.
I think this is the same kind of football Jose wants to play today with Spurs - but he hasn't got the players for it. Score a goal - defend and hit teams on the counter. But Kane and Son alone will not be good enough at counters, and defenders like Rodon, Sanchez, Aurier, Reguilon, Dier - they are not good enough to shut teams out. And at the same time - Højbjerg, Sissoko, Lamela, Lo Celso are not creative enough to turn defence into attack - so even if they win the ball back, they can't set up Son and Kane. Spurs were defending for 45 minutes against United and I counted only 2 decent attempts at counter-attacks despite us having most of our players in the Spurs-half during that 2nd half.
Manchester Uniteds football has been boring from time to time this season - but that has been because several of our attacking players have been poor. Greenwood has only recently found last seasons form - Rashford has been struggling with injuries and form from time to time, Martial has been a shadow of the player he was last season, Pogba was poor in the first half of the season and Bruno has looked jaded.
Now when these players start to hit form - we don't look boring anymore. But I don't Think our coaches and our manager told the players anything differently today than they did against Crystal Palace. They want us to play in the same way - it's just that we now have in-form players - and then everything looks much more exciting.
Earlier in this thread I got told that Brighton and Leicester play better football than us...
oops.
oops.
@ lysglimt : Some good points there.
It's not that surprising really. We were pretty good at the start of that season, the problem was we got gradually worse as the season went on. This year is the opposite, we started off terribly (with mitigating circumstances) and have gradually improved.Interesting graphic demonstrating how similar our attacking output this season is to Mourinho's 2017/2018 season in charge.
It goes to show how a positive and unified atmosphere can influence fan's perception. Ole has definitely built himself a good platform to take it up another notch next season (assuming he's adequately backed in the summer) in terms of results and performances.
Here are the stats for defensive output for those interested. The numbers are remarkably similar across the board.
Thats why you cant judge games on statsInteresting graphic demonstrating how similar our attacking output this season is to Mourinho's 2017/2018 season in charge.
It goes to show how a positive and unified atmosphere can influence fan's perception. Ole has definitely built himself a good platform to take it up another notch next season (assuming he's adequately backed in the summer) in terms of results and performances.
Here are the stats for defensive output for those interested. The numbers are remarkably similar across the board.
Ey? We were top halfway through the season. The wheels fell off our title charge in Feb, following draws to West Brom, Everton, and Palace, as well as losing to Sheffield United at the end of Jan.
Great post, agree with every word.
I fecking hated what Mourinho had done to United, Ole's United is much, much more enjoyable purely by the fact that the club feels more positive and less like a dank pit of squalor and depression. That doesn't preclude us from talking about where we still have room for improvement.
It's not strange at all, to be honest. It's why you shouldn't judge a team based on 45 minutes of football. Would it be less strange if I had brought it up had we drawn? I'm over the fecking moon about the Spurs result, it was among some of the best football I've seen us play in yonks. A proper United display!
You are looking purely at results rather than performances and underlying statistics. Charts on the 'is our football better than LVG and Jose' thread show it better.
Well you can, but stats only say something about what they say something about.
Also, there is context. 17/18 was the pinnacle of where we got with Mourinho. And it wasn't just coincidence that things did not improve from there. They never do with him, past season 2.
Also, I don't think people are really that chuffed about the results this season. If we considered them as good as things were going to get under OGS, then I for one would be dissatisfied. But I'm happy in the specific context of assuming that what we're seeing is another step towards being a truly competitive elite club. And unlike with Jose, there is every reason to believe we are on an upward trajectory, rather than already past the peak.
Those numbers are the underlying statistics..? Our performances in the SU, Arsenal, Everton, WBA, Chelsea and Palace games were insipid and came in the second half of the season. And those are just (some of) the games we dropped points in. We were poor in the Brighton game but came away with a win, likewise against Granada. It was the Granada game that inspired this thread actually, though the feeling has been there for a while (and shared by enough people to warrant discussion as evidenced by this thread).
Anybody who thinks Jose’s United team were easier on the eye need to give their head a wobble.
Jose was absolutely destroying this squad, he was taking us stylistically in the total opposite direction of what the vast majority of fans want for the club.
Using the likes of Fellaini as plan A, B and C.
An absolute donkey leading the line in Lukaku (I don’t care how good he looks in Serie A)
He was trying to sign players like Danny Rose while destroying Shaw.
Falling out with our best player in Pogba who would have moved on.
Jose is worse than done as a top manager because he’s not just outdated and ineffective as a manager he is now also an absolute one man wrecking ball for clubs in a recruitment and man management sense.
Agreed. His toxicity infested every fibre of the club. Sitting quietly and thinking about the fact he's gone forever is enough to elicit a big shit-eating grin.
Fair enough. It would be less strange had we drawn. It's the type of thing I'd expect from an opposition fan to be honest.
We've just had our biggest win in my opinion so I didn't think it would come unless it was from someone looking to instantly undermine Ole's job so far.
We definitely have room for improvement but hopefully everyone can agree Ole has earned the right to oversee that improvement.
I just cant believe that Sanchez, Mata, Lingard etc equals what in watching today. Maybe because its was direct with Young etc throwing balls into Fellaini and Lukaku that the stats match up but i also believe the league was a lot weaker back then anyway.Well you can, but stats only say something about what they say something about.
Also, there is context. 17/18 was the pinnacle of where we got with Mourinho. And it wasn't just coincidence that things did not improve from there. They never do with him, past season 2.
Also, I don't think people are really that chuffed about the results this season. If we considered them as good as things were going to get under OGS, then I for one would be dissatisfied. But I'm happy in the specific context of assuming that what we're seeing is another step towards being a truly competitive elite club. And unlike with Jose, there is every reason to believe we are on an upward trajectory, rather than already past the peak.
My thoughts on this season is that both Manchester clubs have dominated this season more than the league shows because of the slow starts. Both would be looking at 90 point seasons imo. Utd players have a week and a half off before international week kicked in was inhuman. We really arent that far off
I think 90 points for us this season is maybe a little bit of a stretch even if you correct for the difficult circumstances of the early season. But I agree it's real good progress we're seeing. I'm not sure we're as near as we looked against Tottenham. I'm more inclined to think we've played at or very near to our top potential on a few occasions this season, and that we're hitting our ceiling with the current squad around 80-85 points.
Agreed same here. Thankful in the knowledge he will never darken our doorstep again with his shite football and negativity.
Constantly walked around with a face like a slapped arse while being in the privileged position of being manager of the biggest club in the world whilst being fed up the arse with money.
He should just retire or take the national job (if Portugal want to see negative football and for him to p*ss off their best players.)
Yeah there's no ulterior motive here, though I get people are a bit jumpy given how polarised and nauseating it has been with Ole inners/Out outters at times. There's nothing I'd love more than for Ole to absolutely kill it.
Definitely. It was hard to endure given our love for the club and how obviously Mourinho couldn't care less. He was fully prepared (and in the process of) burning the place to the ground.
Not only has Ole had to completely revitalise and give life to the club and players, but he's also had to deal with Mourinho's botch job in the market. He's managed the squad and rebuild well so far given it's compromised of players from Fergie, Moyes, van Gaal, and Mourinho teams.
This!! Absolutely this....
Our boring football comes against low block teams. Teams that put 10men behind the ball & sit deep in their half.
Also, we have shown now that we can break them with our quick one two passing or like yesterday playing with width (Shaw & AWB playing as wingers).
Streching them & find space like Cavani for his first goal or Bruno exploring the spaces left by their deep players.
We've been boring for a long while, but I think a lot is down to fatigue and some is down to coaching. But that 2nd half against Spurs is the most fun I've seen us in ages. I can't even remember seeing us that good in recent years.
It's all well and good bringing up the stats, but we clearly play miles better football than under Jose and really it's no debate. That indicates either the stats are garbage or need to be taken with a massive pinch of salt. Under Jose, we literally looked like that Spurs team every single game, devoid of ideas, creativity and overly negative. Mourinho always does okay statistically but to any observer, it's night and day. It's clear we are fitter, stronger, more mentally resolute, have better quality and a better tactical makeup going into most games.
You missed this one however...Interesting graphic demonstrating how similar our attacking output this season is to Mourinho's 2017/2018 season in charge.
It goes to show how a positive and unified atmosphere can influence fan's perception. Ole has definitely built himself a good platform to take it up another notch next season (assuming he's adequately backed in the summer) in terms of results and performances.
Here are the stats for defensive output for those interested. The numbers are remarkably similar across the board.
All I've read of folks criticizing Ole is we've no identity and we don't press and we don't win the ball up the pitch high enough.
Well the data shows otherwise.
I've clearly seen an improvement in our closing down, our tempo and our ability to press teams a lot more than at any other point in the post Fergie years.
Yeah completely agree, he left not a second too soon (in fact two seasons too late.)
Ole has done brilliantly on the bolded, some try to claim he hasn’t and it’s a complete nonsense.
No I didn't, high turnovers are in the second graphic..?You missed this one however...
All I've read of folks criticizing Ole is we've no identity and we don't press and we don't win the ball up the pitch high enough.
Well the data shows otherwise.
I've clearly seen an improvement in our closing down, our tempo and our ability to press teams a lot more than at any other point in the post Fergie years.
The data shows that we were most effectively winning the ball high up the pitch in 2016/17 and 2017/2018 under Mourinho and slightly less so in Ole's best season (the current one). It's good to see he's improving in that regard, though.
I actually find us entertaining to watch...after going through Moyes/LVG/Mourinho eras, I enjoy watching United these days. The times (like others have said) that we've played "boring" football are those when the opposition turn up for a draw, or to nick a goal. Guess we all have our own opinions...
Interesting to see some of these facts/stats though.
Interesting to see some of these facts/stats though.
I didn't see it posted by you, apologies if you did.
But if you look at the graph, under Ole we are doing it more consistently over a longer period of time with it also improving.
We hit a peak with Jose, then declined a bit and then nose dived altogether.
The opposite is true of Ole.
This can't be right - if it is our pressing is even worse than I thought. Mou barely ever had us properly pressing and we're still behind his 1st and 2nd season, surely not?You missed this one however...
All I've read of folks criticizing Ole is we've no identity and we don't press and we don't win the ball up the pitch high enough.
Well the data shows otherwise.
I've clearly seen an improvement in our closing down, our tempo and our ability to press teams a lot more than at any other point in the post Fergie years.
It was in the same post you quoted!
The data shows we are improving but are still making fewer high turnovers than Mourinho's 2 full seasons. People famously fecking hate Mourinho's football basically throughout his time here. I don't think that graphic saves Ole at all, in fact it shows he still has some way to go if his intention is to create an identity in which we press high up the pitch. The silver lining is that it shows he's improving season on season, which is reassuring.
Jose's was better but only briefly, it declined and then nose dived completely.
With Ole we can see a steady improvement over a longer period of time with a dip. That for me is far better.
It's not.It was in the same post you quoted!
It has offensive and defensive stats but not the high press / turnover stat.
Again yes he had us doing it better for a period... but that dropped off and then was completely non existent.
What that tells me is Jose ran his team into the ground and as per the recent Athletic article fitness was a huge, huge issue... Need I remind you of the walking wounded going into the Europa final? Embarrassing images of 5 or 6 players hobbled on crutches.
There is a clear improvement in player fitness, we don't report anywhere near as many injuries and as per the graph our work rate is improving.
It's better for me to see a continual improvement over a period of time than see a decline, surely folks have to agree on that?
High turnovers?? It's the last stat? Corroborates with the other graphic showing Mourinho's average being above that of Ole's this year..
Ah OK
High turnovers?? It's the last stat? Corroborates with the other graphic showing Mourinho's average being above that of Ole's this year..
Cheers, my bad!No worries, thought I was losing it for a moment.Ah OK
Regardless, I agree that the most important stat moving forward is that Ole's numbers are improving year on year. It'll surely improve again with another couple of players that fit his vision.
Yeah here's hoping.
I know some of his signings haven't set the world alight, but I wouldn't tag any of them as "disaster" like Di Maria, Depay, Mikha, Sanchez etc etc.
Going to be a difficult transfer window with covid hitting the coffers and most clubs will be reluctant to sell unless absolutely necessary.
Well most clubs in the south of Europe are desperate to sell players so - yes it is absolutely necessary for them.
2nd half against Leipzig at home was pretty good too. Leeds at home was good. Southampton at home.
Generally though it’s our inconsistency that’s more a problem than how ‘entertaining’ we are. In many ways we are very entertaining. We play direct (not long) football which can be more exciting than intricate passing football in that it gets to the point.
However, when we have a bad 45 mins it can be really really bad and it could be a direct result of that direct passing we try. We can end up having a half of football where we simply give the ball away. I’d like to see some more maturity where after a couple of wasteful attacks we slow it down a bit and recycle the ball before trying a killer pass. Instead we seem to spiral into worse and worse passing until something does come off or we get to half time and regroup.
Agreed. Up there with the City and PSG games as the best performances of the season for me.
Leeds was great but they pretty much played into our hands and Southampton had a player sent off in the first minute.
Try watching some football, they are all very different managers with different approaches to the game